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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 25 Jul 1924

Vol. 8 No. 20

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 54—MARINE SERVICE.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £8,150 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, to pay the salaries and expenses of the Marine Service.

There are just one or two points in connection with this small Estimate about which I might say a word. The heading A, Salaries, Wages and Allowances, I think explains itself, but some difficulty may be raised by the fact that a certain increase is shown, mainly under the second heading, Survey Services, and that arises mainly because of certain readjustments of staff which are taking place now, or are likely to take place in the near future. The proposal is to make certain substitute arrangements that the combined positions of Nautical Surveyor and Examiner of Masters and Mates, with one post of Ship Surveyor, should be the future arrangement; instead of the post of Senior Ship Surveyor and Ship Surveyor that there should be a half and half arrangement whereby this examinership of Masters and Mates would be shared between Dublin and Belfast.

There is to be an addition also of a Senior Engineer Surveyor, under that arrangement, to undertake certain duties for the Irish Lights, getting for that an allowance payable out of the Vote of the Irish Lights. These alterations will entail certain appointments and training of new staff to replace the present staff, officers who would be recalled to England or who will possibly or probably retire. The increase is mainly due to the fact that there will be overlapping between the outgoing men and the incoming, and also by the special allowance to this Senior Engineer Surveyor, which will be repayable. There is an additional sum to the Medical Inspector, fees receivable by him, and these fees will be recoverable from the shipping company concerned, so that the matter is really a book-keeping transaction. With reference to Item B, I do not propose to go into the detailed sums for the separate items. The separate items would be the travelling of the staffs of the Mercantile Marine Office and of the Survey Office. Incidentals would be technical newspapers, legal expenses, uniforms, medals for gallantry at sea, certain scientific apparatus, and certain expenditure in connection with the School for Navigation. I could give the allowance under each of these heads, but I hope it will not be proposed that I should, because certain negotiations are likely to take place soon with regard to the School for Navigation, and when one is bargaining it is not well to show the sum that is in one's mind. The separate amounts for each item are based on the minimum requirements of the year before. The legal expenses item is, however, a very small sum, set aside provisionally, and owing to a wreck which occurred recently, and as a result of which an inquiry has been ordered, it is quite likely that some supplementary sum may have to be looked for later, because the provision by way of legal expenses is undoubtedly too small.

The small provision that is made for these medals for gallantry at sea is, of course, a thing that may not be called upon, but some estimate must be provided for it. The question of the Navigation School is more or less sub-judice and at the moment I would prefer not to say anything about it, but I can give details if they are required Other items, telephones and telegrams are the best estimates that we can get of these things from figures supplied by the Post Office. Services in connection with wrecks and salvage is a figure that has to be set down. There may be no expenditure under this head at all, and whatever expenditure there is in all cases is recovered. Similarly with regard to the next Item, Relief of Distressed Seamen, some small item has to be set down, but whatever the expenses may be they are also recoverable. Item F, cost of Life-Saving Service, is an important one. This estimate shows a reduction, but that reduction would be off-set by the sum set aside in the Office of Public Works Account. The reduction is due to the fact that the Board of Works have taken over the maintenance and repair of rocket services, and the provision of explosives, etc. The salaries under this sub-head speak for themselves. The item, Travelling Expenses, refers mainly to the Inspector and the Superintendent, who have to cover very large districts. The payments to 758 members of voluntary crews reveals the present system with regard to the Coast Life Saving Service. There are about 50 stations, and the payments made are to two head men, number one and number two in each station, who get sums respectively of £15 and £6 where there are head stations, and in certain instances £12 and £4. The volunteer crews are drilled quarterly, and receive a payment amounting to, I think, £1 per head per annum.

Would the Minister say where these stations are?

The whole 50?

No, not at the moment.

I think it is very important that we should have them.

If the Deputy thinks that we should provide a station in some particular spot where there is not one, and indicates that, I will see if I can answer him. I do not want to recite a list of 50 stations. The other items do not amount to very much. Incidentals, a sum of £450, includes the hire of the horses for the rocket apparatus wagons at wrecks, and also at exercises, and a certain amount for the distribution of stores.

This may be one of the Votes on which we might require to have some discussion after the Recess. I do not want to raise too many questions, or even any that would prolong the discussion on this, because the matter that would be raised might easily lead to a long discussion, but I would ask the Minister to bear in mind that we may desire after the Recess to have a discussion upon the position of the Marine Branch, and also the question of life-saving service. I am a little doubtful whether this is not the time to discuss the life-saving service, and that we ought not to defer the matter until the winter is upon us. We shall require to know more in detail than we do, as to what is the relationship between the Irish Lights Service and the British Board of Trade, and also whether it is intended to give certificates which will be recognised in British ports for masters, mates and engineers. The general question of the relationship between these Government services and the British Government services requires some discussion, and while I think it perhaps undesirable to start a discussion in view of the other Votes that have to come forward, I want to give the Minister notice that this is a matter which will require discussion later in the year.

I want to ask the Minister what is the position of this particular Ministry in connection with the question of coastguards or coast-watchers. On last night fortnight there was a very serious disaster on the south coast of Wexford. We had a new ship which turned turtle, the S.S. "Lismore." I was speaking to the sole survivor of that ship, and he feels convinced that if there had been any coast-watchers in that particular area, a great many of that crew might have been saved. Here we had a ship within sixteen miles of the coast, lighted up and disappearing in a few moments, and if there had been any coastguard station in the vicinity, or any system of coast-watchers, the probability is that the majority of that crew would have been saved. The steamer blew her siren practically until she disappeared, and I think everybody will agree that if there had been anybody of authority on behalf of this particular Ministry in that vicinity at all, that a great deal might have been done to save many valuable lives.

The Minister has mentioned that there are fifty stations around the coast. Well, the position in that connection is, to my mind, that the people do not know there is any one at all, that it is not apparent to anybody that we have a life-saving apparatus in operation as it used to be five or six years ago. I would like to ask the Minister if the people who are retained for this particular service are exercised frequently, because it is a very important thing. It has been proved time and time again that even skilled men in the working of this life-saving apparatus have made serious mistakes which have resulted in a loss of life. I do think the Minister and the Ministry should pay far more serious attention to this matter of life-saving and coast-watching than they have apparently done. I think it should be made known immediately where these stations are, and what the intentions are so far as coast-watching is concerned. I have it on very reliable authority that there is smuggling going on all round the Irish coast, and that is also a matter that should be attended to. I take it, when the Minister talks about an Inquiry, he means that his Department is going to inquire into the unfortunate disaster in which the "Lismore" was sunk. I do think it is absolutely essential and I am glad the Irish Government is taking the necessary steps. I want to know what the intentions of the Minister are as far as coast-watching is concerned, and also how often these men retained by the Ministry are practised in the use of the life-saving apparatus.

I would like to know whether the service is of recent growth; I do not think it is. We took over the service in 1922 immediately after the signing of the Treaty. Some months afterwards the State set out to purchase patrol boats, a dozen or so. I would like to know if the services of any of the very competent officers set out in the list were engaged in the surveying of these boats before they were purchased, and if so, how it happens that these boats turned out very soon afterwards to be unserviceable, not fit for patrol work, and that many of them are now only fit for the scrap heap. It is a matter of something like £40,000 to the State, and the responsibility should be fixed somewhere.

There are only two points I want to make with to the question of coast watching which I assume comes under this service.

Is it the Preventive Service?

Whatever takes the place of the old coastguard service.

If it is coast life , it comes under this head.

I am now speaking of a matter which the Minister's answer makes quite clear deserves some attention, and that is the co-relation in this service between one Department and another. For example, coast watchers in a certain part of the coast recently discovered a matter that aroused a good deal of attention in the Dáil a short time ago, and that is illegal trawling. The whole thing was being conducted quite openly—it happened on the coast of Mayo—and there seems to be very little knowledge on the part of these coast watchers how to get into touch with the proper authorities in the Fishery Department, they not being fishery servants, so as to bring this thing under notice. In the same connection I happened to be down on the coast recently, and I was speaking to some of these coast watchers. There is one aspect that is of very great importance because it does arise out of the very definite work done previously by coastguards. I do not know whether it has occurred to anybody here, but it has been done extensively off the United States coast, that there is really a fortune waiting for anybody who wants to organise smuggling. I suppose no loyal citizen of the Free State would do it, but there is a little fortune awaiting anybody who wants to organise smuggling, and on the West Coast of Ireland it could be easily done.

I would like to know if the Ministry exercises any authority over the Lifeboat Institution. In the area in which this vessel was lost there was a lifeboat stationed one time—that is, at Fethard. The gallant part the crew of the lifeboat there played on the occasion of the loss of the Norwegian boat will be within the recollection of Deputies. That lifeboat station has been done away with, and there is no station nearer than Wexford on one side, and Dunmore on the other. The survivor from the "Lismore" landed at a place on the South Wexford coast twenty-four hours after the ship had been lost—at 12.20 on Saturday morning. Nobody knew anything whatever about the disaster until the following evening at five o'clock. The Dunmore and Wexford lifeboats were not on the scene until six o'clock or seven o'clock on Saturday evening. I submit that it was a great mistake to take away the lifeboat station from a rocky coast like that at Fethard. It is certainly a place in which there should be a station, and I would like to know from the Minister if he has any control over these particular services.

In reply to Deputy Johnson, I thought discussion had been held over on No. 52, and that was why I went into a certain amount of detail in regard to No. 54. What I have stated does not preclude a bigger discussion in the Autumn on both this Vote and No. 52, when the President gives the day he has promised for the debate in connection with this Ministry.

With regard to the point made by Deputy Hennessy, I understood he was referring to the boats under the control of the Ministry of Defence. These survey services were not availed of in any way in connection with these boats. We had nothing to do with them.

That is an extraordinary admission. No matter what the service was, the use of this Department might have saved £40,000 or £50,000, when they were expending £100,000.

I am only answering from the point of view of Vote 54. I was told certain things had happened, and I was asked if the surveyors had anything to do with these boats. I said "No." It may be an extraordinary thing, but so far as Vote 54 is concerned, I have nothing to do with it.

The points raised by Deputy Corish are material. It is, I think, inaccurate for the Deputy to say that the lights of this boat could be seen from the shore. That is not the information that has been given——

Before the Minister goes any further, may I say that that is the opinion of all the nautical people in the area—that her lights could have been seen from the shore. She was about sixteen miles out, and that particular coast is very high.

Does the Deputy refer to ordinary lights? No rockets, I understand, were fired.

No; I mean ordinary lights.

The boat was about fifteen miles off the shore, and apparently there is a conflict between the Deputy's experts and other experts as to whether the lights could have been seen.

I can understand that.

I do not propose to go into the list of the stations. If the Deputy, or any other Deputies, thinks it would serve a useful purpose to have a list of stations circulated so that they may be known, if they are not known already, that might be done. The distribution of stations, I understand, is—East Coast, 14; South Coast, 26; West and North Coast, 12.

Would the Minister say if there is any service in the particular vicinity where the boat was lost?

There is a station at Fethard, one at Tramore, and one at Dunmore East. These three are close to the particular region. The Deputy asked with regard to the policy of the department with respect to coast watching. Coast watching may include a number of things. In so far as it concerns life saving along the coast, the policy of the department is outlined in the Estimate. If it is pointed out that there are places where there are no stations and where there ought to be stations, it will be a matter for consideration if the financial responsibilities of the State will permit of the extra stations required. The cost is not very much, because the crews are volunteers.

What does "coast watching" really mean in this case?

I might get at it by a process of elimination. It does not mean the preventive service to which Deputy Figgis was referring. That is not a question for this department. As far as the other points made by that Deputy is concerned—co-relation between the different departments engaged—there is co-relation so far as the Ministry of Industry and Commerce and the Ministry of Fisheries are concerned. I believe there is a revised or a new scheme, with regard to a preventive service being put forward by the Revenue Commissioners, and I presume it will be linked up with the present stations we have for life saving purposes.

I would like to have some information with regard to services for sea-watching. I was speaking to the sole survivor of the "Lismore" and he told me distinctly he was within 100 or 200 yards of the shore practically from 8 o'clock the evening he landed. With some sort of coast-watching service by a person specially appointed by the Minister to look after matters of this kind, this man might have been landed earlier.

May I suggest that it is apparent that any service of the kind which is necessary will have to be arranged for by agreement with ship-owners, who are more affected by the possible losses, and the Government. It so happens that Irish shipping is not great enough to warrant all the care that would be required round the coast, that the greater amount of the shipping whose interests, and the interest of the people concerned, would have to be looked after, belongs to another country. But we are all agreed about the necessity for the humanitarian services. It seems to me to be a question that ought to be taken up with either the insurance authorities, the ship - owning authorities, or the Board of Trade as to the extent of the service of this kind that they will pay for, by way of contribution to voluntary organisations, or otherwise, on the Irish Coast. It is absolutely necessary that there be a much more efficient service than we can pay for out of this Vote, and it is not fair that the Irish revenue should be made to bear the cost that is necessary, inasmuch as 95 per cent. of the ships and crews that might possibly be affected, are not Irish ships or Irish crews. Consequently, it seems to me that the whole matter of policy in regard to coast service and life-saving services must necessarily be taken up in conjunction with British authorities.

I think the Deputy has stated accurately the facts with regard to the percentage of boats and the nationality of crews operating around the coast. The suggestion he has thrown out is one that can be usefully followed and will be followed. As regards Deputy Corish's point about coast watching in bad weather, Numbers 1 and 2 of the stations do watch the coast in bad weather. There is coast watching done by these two in each station in bad weather. That is the provision made. The only other point raised was by Deputy Johnson with regard to the Irish Light Services. That is a larger point than the others, and I agree with what he said—it would suit me much better—that the discussion might be postponed until the autumn. Things might be advanced further by then, and we could deal with it in the debate on the general policy of the Ministry on whatever day the President gives for that purpose.

Would the Minister deal with my point as to whether he has any jurisdiction over the Life Boat Institution?

The Ministry has no control over that. The greatest harmony and the most cordial relations exist between the Ministry and the Society, but we have no control.

I would ask the Minister to make representations to those people, with a view to getting a life boat on the Fethard Coast again.

Our relations are such that we could easily make a suggestion of that sort to them.

Will you undertake to do it?

Vote put and agreed to.
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