I move:—
"In Section 3 (f), line 56, after the word ‘equipped' to insert the words ‘with appropriate appliances and utensils and."'
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - DAIL IN COMMITTEE.
Mr. HOGAN
I am accepting this amendment. It is obvious that the omission of these words was an oversight. The Section deals with the conditions of cleanliness and sets out that any premises in which dairy produce is manufactured for sale shall comply with certain conditions. In connection with registered premises the Dáil will notice that we omitted to provide that registered premises must be equipped with appropriate appliances and utensils, as well as plant. We do not want to enable the lawyers to earn money arguing the question, whether plant includes appropriate appliances and utensils.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.
I move:—
In Section 4 (3) (i), line 55, to delete the word "pure" and substitute therefor the words "good and wholesome."
Deputies will notice that in Section 3, sub-section (e) the words are "good and wholesome."
Does the Minister accept that?
Mr. HOGAN
If Deputy Figgis, who is a judge of literary matter agrees I will accept it. It is in the interest of the form of the Bill that the expression "good and wholesome" should be used throughout. I may say that these words are taken from the Food and Drugs Act and from other Acts dealing with similar questions. If the word "pure" be deleted, and if the Bill be made consistent, by inserting the words "good and wholesome" it will bring it into line with sub-section 3 and other sections.
I am going to oppose the adoption of these words on literary as well as other grounds. I agree that there may be merit in making two blades of grass grow where one grew but I do not agree in using two words where one is enough. I think that "pure" has a legal meaning that "good and wholesome" has not.
With regard to water I believe there is a definite standard of purity laid down, a certain germ content, and if that is exceeded the article is branded as impure by the analyst who examines it. As far as I know there is no particular standard of virtue laid down for water. I suppose "wholesome" is as good as "pure," but I do not know that it is a great improvement. Of course one man's meat is another man's poison, and what is considered wholesome in one place might be considered unwholesome in another place. Pure water is governed by legal decisions and I prefer the original draft to the amendment that it is proposed to make.
Water may be perfectly pure and at the same time may not be good water. For instance, poison might be good, but it might not be particularly good when mixed with butter. I think the word "good" is better than the word "pure."
I think the Deputy's amendment is late as you have already got "good and wholesome" in Section 3.
I was not on the Committee that considered the Bill.
Mr. HOGAN
I think the real point is, as Deputy Cooper said, the word "pure" has a legal meaning. I do not know whether it has or not, but I am quite certain that the words "good and wholesome" are the words used in the Food and Drugs Act and in other Acts dealing with matters of this kind. There has not been any confusion as a result, and I daresay that cases have been decided on sections in which the words "good and wholesome" are used. I think there is less likelihood of any confusion if we make the wording of the Bill conform as far as possible to other Acts.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 4, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 5.
I beg to move the following amendment:
"In Section 5 (4), line 26, after the words ‘to be' to insert the word ‘standing.'"
Mr. HOGAN
This is to distinguish from an arbitrator who may be appointed temporarily in the absence of the permanent arbitrator. The word "standing" has been used instead of the word "permanent" in the previous sub-section. It is necessary to insert the word "standing" in view of the provision which we are asking the Dáil to insert later on.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I beg to move:—
To add at the end of Section (5) a new sub-section as follows:—
"(5) If and whenever owing to the incapacity through illness or the absence of the standing arbitrator or the number of arbitrations to be heard it is necessary or expedient that additional arbitrators should be appointed, the Executive Council may appoint one or more additional arbitrators upon such terms and conditions as they shall with the consent of the Minister for Finance think proper, and every such additional arbitrator shall be included in the expression ‘the arbitrator' as used in this Part of this Act, and shall have all the powers and duties conferred or imposed on the standing arbitrator by this Part of this Act."
This merely gives the Executive Council power to appoint additional arbitrators should circumstances necessitate such appointment.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 5, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 16.
I beg to move:—
In Section 16 (1) (a), page 13, line 62, immediately after the word "stations" to insert the words:—"or when so authorised by the Minister (which authorisation shall not be given unless the Minister is of opinion that there are special or unusual circumstances justifying him in so doing) and subject to the conditions named by the Minister, from a specified cream-separating station situate outside Saorstát Eireann."
Mr. HOGAN
This is to cover the case of a creamery which is on this side of the border, and which gets its material from its auxiliaries on the other side of the border. As the Bill stands, we could not allow a creamery at this side of the border to get its milk from its auxiliaries on the other side. That would be a great loss to the creamery and would, I think, be contrary to national policy. I do not think that this amendment would do any harm. It permits the produce of Northern Ireland to come into and be manufactured in Saorstát Eireann. So far as there is a general principle, I think that principle is good. It would be a serious thing to prevent creameries from getting milk from their auxiliaries on the other side, and it would probably mean that the creameries would not be worked economically, and might perhaps be transferred over. Further, it may be said that we are standardising dairy produce here, that that is the aim of the Bill, and that we should be careful not to allow any materials used for the purposes of making butter, cheese, or other products, to come to creameries over which we have no control. I do not think that that affects the point. The milk or cream will come from an auxiliary to a central creamery which is in our territory, and over which we will have control, and we will be in a position to see that our inspectors will take care that the milk conforms to the standard which we require. If we are able to control the central creamery, to see that its processes are correct, and that the raw material is of the right standard and quality, then we obviate any danger that might arise from taking those supplies from any station which we did not control.
I think that any provision of this kind is very admirable. I think that the Northern Government have similar legislation to this.
Mr. HOGAN
No, not of the same kind.
They have some legislation regarding control. I do not know if it extends to dairy control. I would like to know how they deal with a matter of this kind.
It seems to me that the argument of the Minister on this section is opposed to a great many provisions of the Bill, because he says that, by having control of the central creameries, he is able to control the raw material for making butter and cheese. If that is so, why are there provisions in connection with farmers, etc.? If the whole thing can be simplified by having control of the creamery, then the ct ceteras are unnecessary.
Mr. HOGAN
That, I think, as the Deputy realises, is an unreal dilemma. He is right when he says that it is not sufficient for us to control the central creamery. It is necessary to control the auxiliaries. We have to make up our minds whether in the case of one or two central creameries we can be satisfied with them, notwithstanding the fact that they are taking milk from two or three creameries on the other side of the Border. The House must consider that it would be a great loss to the creameries not to get materials from the other side of the Border and also that the officials of the Department will, under this Bill, know the conditions in regard to these particular creameries, such as they are in the North. We will be able to keep a special eye on that question, and we will be able to give it special attention. Supposing, for instance, that this Bill dealt purely with central creameries and left out the auxiliaries, then of course our inspectors would have a very difficult proposition to deal with. They would have to examine carefully the milk coming from all the auxiliaries at the central creamery. The Bill has not done that. It has made the same provisions in regard to auxiliaries as to central creameries with these exceptions which I have already explained. This is a very limited case and it would be a very great hardship to certain creameries.
resumed the Chair.
If the inspectors were satisfied that the surroundings attending the creameries over the Border were not up to the mark, would they not be in a position to refuse to give them the National Brand?
I think this is a case that the Minister should have some discussion on. I can see that it is likely to lead to difficulty, in possibly, other directions. We cannot legislate of course to authorise the Minister to inspect auxiliaries outside the Saorstát, but I think we might make special mention in any amendment of this kind to the effect that the licence is revocable if the Minister is advised that the conditions under which the auxiliaries are worked are not satisfactory. Perhaps there is need for him before he gets any authorisation to get the consent of the Minister for Finance, not for the usual reasons—or, rather, shall I say, the consent of the Excise Commissioners. If we find a regular traffic from the auxiliaries of milk or cream over the border, one can see a very favourable means of carrying forward excise goods over the Border without much risk of detection. I would not be inclined to refuse this authority, but I would say that the Minister would have to exercise a very great deal of thought in giving authorisation.
I support the amendment. We have to accept the state of things at the moment, and I think Deputy Hewat is not one who advocates here that trade as it exists ought to be unnecessarily interfered with. Here we have a trade with that part of Ireland called at the moment Northern Ireland. Unless we have a provision such as is proposed, we are going to upset that trade and, therefore, such an amendment is essential. There is nothing wrong in our manufacturing into butter, cream sent across from the other side of the Border. Even from Deputy Johnson's point of view, I think there is no fear that excisable goods will be brought across the Border. From what I know of the Border I think there is not the slightest fear of that. It was the custom to close the cans, and the Custom authorities will not accept that and the cans have to be opened. The Minister, in my opinion, has acted very wisely in introducing the amendment. We have to legislate for the situation that exists in the light of the circumstances.
I am not opposing the amendment at all. I am pointing out that the explanation given by the Minister in this case is not, like Caesar's wife, above reproach. The Minister, in his explanation, says that it applies to only one or two creameries across the Border, but does it apply only to them? If the milk or cream is put into cans at one side of the Border, once it crosses the Border could it not be supplied to any creamery within the Free State? In other words, could it not be possible for the cream to come from any part of the Northern area into any creamery in the Free State, and no exception be taken to it?
It would not be an economic proposition.
It is excluded by the amendment.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move:—
In Section 16 (1) (e), page 14, line 23, after the words "Saorstát Eireann," to insert the words and figures "and then only subject to and in accordance with the prescribed conditions and subject to and in accordance with the provisions of the Sale of Food and Drugs Acts, 1875 to 1907."
Mr. HOGAN
This section makes regulations to apply to all premises registered in the Register of Creameries, and the regulations are set out in the Clauses A to G. In similar clauses of the Bill dealing with other premises which are not registered creameries, these words are inserted, and their insertion will make this section conformable with the other section dealing with manufacturing exporters, etc. The point is that there are about 105 different things taboo under the Sale of Food and Drugs Acts. We want to make it quite clear that none of the provisions of the Sale of Food and Drugs Acts is repealed by this Bill.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 16. as amended, stand part of the Bill"— put and agreed to.
SECTION 18.
I move:—
In Section 18 (1) (e), line 35, after the words "Saorstát Eireann," to insert the words and figures "and then only subject to and in accordance with the prescribed conditions and subject to and in accordance with the provisions of the Sale of Food and Drugs Acts, 1875 to 1907."
Amendment agreed to.
Question—"That Section 18, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 26.
I move:—
In Section 26 (2), line 16, after the word "inspector" to insert the words "for any purpose arising out of or in connection with this Act or any regulation made thereunder."
Amendment agreed to.
Question—"That Section 26, as amended, stand part of the Bill"— put and agreed to.
SECTION 30.
I move:—
In Section 30 (1), line 10, after the word "stations," to insert the words "or all or any premises registered in the register of manufacturing exporters."
Mr. HOGAN
The section deals with pasteurising milk. The Dáil will remember that we inserted special provisions for what we called manufacturing exporters. Manufacturing exporters are creameries, if you like, that collect cream and not milk. It is obvious that the same conditions in regard to pasteurising should apply to manufacturing exporters as apply to creameries.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move:—
In Section 30 (1), line 11, to delete the word "either" and substitute in lieu thereof the word "any."
Amendment agreed to.
I move:—
At the end of Section 30 (3), to insert a new sub-section as follows—
"(4) Where regulations have been made under this section in respect of premises registered in the register of manufacturing exporters all milk and all cream required by those regulations to be pasteurised on those premises shall be pasteurised in accordance with such regulations."
Amendment agreed to.
Question—"That Section 30, as amended, stand part of the Bill"— put and agreed to.
SECTION 32.
I move:—
In Section 32 (1) (f), line 65, after the word "appliances" to insert the words "offered for sale, sold or."
Amendment agreed to.
Question—"That Section 32, as amended, stand part of the Bill"— put and agreed to.
Bill as amended, ordered to be reported.