Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 31 Oct 1924

Vol. 9 No. 7

DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE—MOTION BY DEPUTY SEAMUS O DOLAIN.

Mr. DOLAN

I beg to move:—

Go bhfuil an Dáil sásta maidir leis na seirbhíse le n-a bhfuil an vóta i gcóir na Roinne Tionnscail agus Tráchtála le caitheamh.

That the Dáil is satisfied as to the services on which the vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce is to be expended.

This motion has been put down in order to give the Dáil an opportunity of discussing the estimates that have already been passed for the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. I do not propose to make any statement, and will content myself merely with formally moving the motion that stands in my name.

Mr. PETER HUGHES

I beg to second the motion.

Major COOPER

I want to take advantage of this opportunity to go into the general question of the commerce of the Saorstát, and I think I shall be in order in doing so, because, after all, the information on which I shall be acting is supplied by the Minister's Department, and is included in his Vote, and he is himself, in so far as any one individual can be, responsible for our commercial prosperity. I want to go into points of detail, some of which we did discuss when these estimates were under consideration in July, and go beyond the points of detail and go into the basic facts of the commercial situation. Now, I think it is well known to Deputies, and to the public outside, that at present we have what is called an unfavourable balance of trade. That is to say, that we are importing a considerable amount more than we are exporting. That is so, in the case of Great Britain normally, in the case of Northern Ireland entirely, and in the case of almost every part of the world except one or two very small places like the Straits Settlements, the Philippine Islands, and the British West Indies. The amount of trade done with these places is relatively very small.

I know that for August, which is the last month for which we have figures, the proportion, so far as Great Britain is concerned, has been reversed, and in the month of August, and only in the month of August, did we export more to Great Britain than we imported from her. But I think that was due to abnormal circumstances. In August our imports were to the value of £3,428,000, and we exported £3,863,000. But we must remember that in August the store cattle were beginning to go over to Great Britain, and this favourable balance of approximately £400,000 is mainly due to cattle, and in part to horses. It is not surprising that the month of the Dublin Horse Show showed an increase in the export of horses. In August the value of cattle exported to Great Britain came to £1,640,000, while in June, which I take to be a fairly typical month, we exported £1,315,000 worth. So that that favourable balance of £400,000 was largely made up of an increase in cattle exports.

I hope and believe that that favourable balance will continue during the September and October fairs. But, as a general rule, our trade balance with Great Britain is unfavourable, and, without any exception, our trade balance with practically the whole of the rest of the world is unfavourable. The two countries with which it is particularly unfavourable are the United States and the Argentine. During the eight months for which we have figures available we bought to the value of over £2,000,000 from the United States, and we sold them to the value of only just over £100,000. That is a very unfavourable trade balance, indeed. Our trade with the Argentine is nearly as bad. From the Argentine we bought goods, mainly consisting of maize and maize products, to the value of over £1,200,000, and we sold them only £8,000 worth of goods. The thing may be shown very clearly in the figures for the month of July. In that month the Argentine sent us £237,000 worth of goods, while we sold her only £35 worth; that is at the rate of about £1 per day. Now, that cannot be said to be a satisfactory state of affairs. It is not an abnormal one. It prevails in a good many other small countries where there is an unfavourable balance of trade showing an increase of imports over exports. That state of things rules in Belgium and Holland and in Norway, but in these countries, certainly in the case of Belgium and Holland, the greater part of the imports consists of raw material brought into these countries and worked up there by the people of these countries and consumed by them. With us it is very much the opposite.

Outside the cattle trade, and trade in food and drink, which are our staple trades, the bulk of our exports are raw material, hides, wool, feathers, and things like that that go out of the country and are worked up by the people of the country that import them. How are we to meet that situation? I have taken my figures for the first six months, because I think six months afford a better basis to work on than eight months. It is easier to take the period of six months and multiply it by two and get the yearly figures. I want to try and distinguish between two sorts of imports in our trade, the import of things that we cannot possibly produce ourselves and the import of things that we can produce or might possibly produce. I will call the first kind, that is to say, the goods that we cannot produce ourselves, "the inevitable imports." I do not see why, while every other political economist is allowed to coin phrases, I should not be in the same position. To those who listened to Deputy Johnson's thesis yesterday it might appear that this country could produce everything that the poor needed and that we had no need to buy anything from outside.

Mr. JOHNSON

It was not my thesis at all.

Major COOPER

I beg pardon, I thought the Deputy said that the food was in the country. A very considerable portion of these inevitable imports consist of food or raw material. The first of these inevitable imports is wheat and flour. In the six months under review our imports of wheat and flour amounted to £3,176,381. The next head is maize and maize products, maize, flour, and so on; that is slightly over £2,000,000; hops, which is the raw material of one of our great industries, that we cannot grow ourselves—I never heard of hops being grown in this country—amounts to £538,512; sugar —I have included sugar, because up to the present, and for the next few years at all events, there is no prospect of our being able to produce beet sugar— amounts to £1,327,426; tea, £1,060,762; coal, £2,097,025; iron and steel manufactures, £1,185,402. Next, I take machinery, and I have excluded from the calculation in connection with machinery, agricultural machinery, because that is made in the Saorstát. I do not know whether we produce enough for all our needs, but I am leaving anything that we can produce out of account in connection with these figures. I am leaving out of account every industry that the mind of the most ardent protectionist might desire to put a tariff on. Machinery, then, not including agricultural machinery, is imported to the value of £507,000. Cotton yarns are manufactures in which I do not think we could ever compete with Lancashire, because the climate there is peculiarly favourable to their production, and of cotton yarns and manufactures we import to the value of £1,064,313; chemicals we import to the value of £662,121, and oil, including motor spirit, we import to the value of £739,000.

I do not think any Deputy will challenge me when I say that all these things which are so necessary for us we must get from outside. We are not likely to start cotton mills on a large scale, and we cannot get chemicals out of our soil which do not exist there, and other things that we import, such as coal and cotton. That brings the total up to £14,382,942.

Our exports of cattle, food and drink amount to £18,000,000. There is another £3,000,000 of miscellaneous exports, very largely raw material, and not altogether helpful, but still we will throw that in. Our total exports in the six months period amount to £21,000,000, and, therefore, in theory, we have only £7,000,000 left to pay for all these things not included in those inevitable imports. We have only £7,000,000 of export trade to buy clothes, boots, and tobacco, which is a very large item, motor cars and luxuries of every kind; that is to say, that if the national balance sheet, not the balance sheet of the Minister for Finance, but if the balance sheet of the Minister for Commerce is to show a true balance, we have only £7,000,000 that we can spend. In practice in the six months under review we have spent £19,000,000 on goods from outside.

If I may illustrate my thesis, I will take the case of an individual farmer: The farmer spends, say, £140 on the working expenses of his farm. He spends another £190 on luxuries, and from the farm he gets a return of £210, as we have our exports of £21,000,000. Therefore he is £120 to the bad; but, of course, he could not carry on his business if these were his only resources. But suppose the farmer has a brother in the United States who sends him £20 every Christmas, and supposing that in the good time of the war boom the farmer invested £2,000 in British War Loan, and gets £100 interest from it coming in every year, then he will be able to make up the £120 from those two outside sources and his accounts will balance. That, I fancy is what is being done. Our position is not as bad as it appears on paper, because there are large sums of money invested outside the Saorstát that come into it to be spent.

I have no idea what the total amounts are, but the Minister for Finance, the night before last, estimated that £8,000,000 a year came in. I think that more than that must come in, or else our accounts are in a very bad condition. Of course, all this is on the high ground where finance and commerce mingle. While the Minister for Finance may deplore that fact, I am not quite so sure that the Minister for Industry and Commerce does, because I think it helps him to keep his balance straight. On some future occasion I should like to go into the point as to why, in some respects, it is a sound thing to have some of our money invested outside the State. There are some reasons in favour of that which I think the Minister for Finance has not fully considered. I have tried to lay before the Dáil the general situation as I see it, and if I am wrong I shall be pleased to be corrected. The general situation is, that our trade balance at the moment is in an unsound position, while our industry and commerce rest on an unsound basis. We have no great carrying trade such as Belgium and Holland, in the shape of shipping firms, have. We have very little of that, and hence I say our industry and commerce rest on an unsound basis, and we are simply being buttressed up by dividends coming into the country from outside.

I should like to know what is the policy of the Minister with regard to this question. I desire to make one or two suggestions to him, and even though Deputy Davin is not here, I may say that I always try to be constructive. Sometimes, I fear, I construct in a direction that Deputy Davin does not like. One thing is that we are at present saved by dividends coming in from outside. I think it should be the policy, not only of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce but of the Ministry as a whole, to encourage people who have money invested, even if not invested in this State, to return here and to live here. I think we can help that best by increasing the amenities of life, and whenever possible, by diminishing the burden of taxation. The second point I make is, so far as possible, to decrease these inevitable imports. We spend over £4,000,000 a year on coal. If, by some means we could develop electrical energy to such an extent as to supplant coal, then we might save that sum of £4,000,000 a year on our adverse balance. I hope the Minister, when he comes to reply, will tell us what stage the Shannon development scheme has reached. The third, and, of course, the obvious point I want to make, is to extend our export trade as far as possible. In that export trade by far our largest customer is Great Britain. For sentimental or for any other reasons we cannot afford, from the strictly business point of view, to interfere with that trade. It is possible that with new developments, as a result of what has occurred within the last couple of days in Great Britain, renewed attempts at Colonial preference may be made in the policy of Great Britain. If so, it is up to us to see that we get our full share of that, and not let Canada or New Zealand come in and cut us out in the British market.

Then, again, I am struck by the small countries with which we have a good trade balance. We have, I ought to say, a pretty good trade balance with the British West Indies. In eight months they have taken from us £15,000 worth of goods, while the Straits Settlements have taken from us goods to the value of £21,000. A good many of these small countries seem to take our biscuits and other things fairly freely, and I suggest that that small trade is worth working up. I cannot help thinking whether, instead of having a large number of Consulates or representatives in foreign countries, it would not be better for the Minister to have a travelling commissioner in foreign countries to develop Irish trade, a sort of glorified commercial traveller under the aegis of our Government. If we had such a commissioner he could go about spreading knowledge of our industries in places where we do a small export trade at present. Finally, I desire to ask the Minister if he has anything in his Department in the way of an economic general staff, any Department that is charged with the thinking out of policies for the future, with the consideration of contingencies that may arise, such as strikes in Great Britain or elsewhere, changes of fiscal policy in the United States, Canada, or Argentina. I desire to know if there is any branch of the Ministry devoted to that work, because in these matters a little foresight sometimes pays a very valuable dividend.

Mr. HEWAT

I desire to get your assistance, A Chinn Comhairle, as to how far the scope of this Motion will enable me to deal with the question of electricity, whether I would be in order in referring to the position of authorised electrical undertakings in view of the fact, as I am informed, that the Ministry of Industry and Commerce has threatened proceedings against those undertakings in connection with a levy on their output. I only saw this motion yesterday, and in the time that has intervened since I have not had much opportunity of going in any great detail into this subject, which is a very technical one. If the Dáil will allow me to deal in a general way with this demand of the Minister on these undertakings for payment, I will try to be as brief as possible.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy can discuss any action of the Minister in relation to his Department.

Mr. HEWAT

In the British House of Commons an Electricity Act was passed in the year 1919. At that time the Dublin Corporation were not inclined to recognise the authority of the British House of Commons in connection with the administration of Irish affairs. Consequently—I am speaking from memory—there was no opposition in the House of Commons to the Act of 1919. Under ordinary circumstances, the provisions of that Act would have been opposed as not being applicable to this country, because totally different circumstances govern trade here as compared with similar undertakings in Great Britain. The Act of 1919 provided for the appointment of Electricity Commissioners, and this Act—I now speak subject to correction—was taken over by the Dáil, but subsequent Acts passed by the British House of Commons were not adopted by us. The Act of 1919 provided for the appointment of Electricity Commissioners. The basis of the appointments was that the Commissioners were to be given power to conduct experiments for the improvement of electricity supply and for the utilisation of water power. They were to be assisted by an Advisory Committee for the purpose of organising a supply of electricity in England, and were given power to divide up the country into joint electricity areas. In these areas it would be possible to generate electricity in very large generating stations and to supply all the undertakings within the area. Power was also given to absorb the undertakings of local authorities.

By the Electricity Commissioners (Transfer of Functions) Order, 1924, all the provisions of the Electricity Supply Act of 1919 regarding the appointment, tenure of office and remuneration of the Electricity Commissioners, their secretary, inspectors, officers and servants are to cease to have effect in Saorstát Eireann. That being the position, it was obviously necessary and desirable that an Act governing the control and development of electricity in the Saorstát should come into operation as soon as possible. Nothing has been done in this direction, as the House is aware, and what I maintain is that, pending legislation dealing with the whole question in the Saorstát, it is not right or proper that a charge should be levied on the undertakings while the obligations on which the charge has been based have not been put into operation; in other words, that the undertakings might reasonably be expected to submit to a contribution, where they were to get some benefit in the way of better organisation or assistance in developing their undertakings, but that it is not right or proper that use should be made of the taking over of the powers of one part of the Act of 1919 without accepting any responsibility for the obligations under that Act. As I have said, this is rather a technical subject. I certainly find it rather hard, impromptu, to put into words that would appeal to Deputies what I consider is the unjust view that the Minister takes of his power to levy a charge, and also his power to ignore his obligations at the same time.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Obligations under the 1919 Act?

Mr. HEWAT

Obligations, moral obligations, which were incurred by the Minister, by inserting a line in the Schedule of the Ministers and Secretaries Act which gave him authority to take over the powers of the Board of Trade under the Act of 1919. At the time the matter was before the Dáil I objected to it and I got an assurance that it was merely meant for administrative purposes, and had no sinister influence on the outlook of industry.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Might I interrupt the Deputy to get the point cleared up. The Deputy did raise a certain objection when the Ministers and Secretaries Bill was going through, to what he describes as a certain line in that Act which gave certain powers. I want to know if he is speaking of obligations under the 1919 Act, and does he assert that the 1919 Act is not in fact law in this country?

Mr. HEWAT

I say that the Act of 1919 is law in so far as the legal aspect of the case is concerned, but I do say that the Act of 1919 has not been agreed to in the ordinary sense; the provisions of the 1919 Act were never agreed to by this country during the passing of the Act. I have already explained that when the 1919 Act was passing through the British House of Commons if things had been normal, the undertakings would have objected to its application to Ireland. I say that definitely. But whether the 1919 Act is adopted or not, the Department and the country have had time to review the whole position and say on what lines electricity is to be developed and if it is to be on the lines of the legislation that has been adopted by the British House of Commons in connection with British undertakings. Surely, it was a simple matter for the Minister long ago to have said, "We will adopt all the Acts of the British House of Commons and put into operation the very clauses which provide for the appointment of Electricity Commissioners." What I want to emphasise and make as simple as possible to the House is this, that the Minister, in administering this Act has taken the power to levy a charge on the authorised undertakings, and he has ignored altogether the obligations to deal with the matter as a whole, and appoint Electricity Commissioners to carry out the functions of the Act under which he claims to have a legal right to levy this charge.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Might I again interrupt the Deputy to ask him if he agrees with my contention that it was at his own special request during the passing of the Ministers and Secretaries Act that Electricity Commissioners were not appointed.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Is not the Minister himself the Electricity Commissioners under our Act?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Special Electricity Commissioners, I mean, which the Deputy described as being an extravagance.

Mr. HEWAT

I do not think so. It is only right to explain that I occupy a position which I am very little qualified to fill, but which, at all events, I do try to fill, and that is Chairman of the Electricity Users' Association. That Association came into being largely through the Minister for Industry and Commerce, at the time, recognising the need for some expert assistance for the undertakings in connection with this whole matter. It is composed of the men best qualified to speak for the electricity undertakings in the Saorstát, because all the undertakings are members of the Association. The Minister asked for the assistance of the associated undertakings, and that was very gladly and willingly given to him.

The Association prepared a Bill—I do not say whether it is a good Bill or a bad Bill—and it was accepted by the Minister for Industry and Commerce as being a basis for legislation. That is a very considerable time ago. As far as I know, there is no need for the delay in the interval in bringing forward that legislation and dealing with this whole matter. Whether there was cause for delay or not is it not reasonable to expect that the Minister would also recognise the desirability of waiting until he had the authority of the Dáil before taking any drastic steps, demanding payments from these undertakings that had never been paid before under any Act of Parliament, and for which, as far as I know, the Minister does not propose to give any value whatsoever. That is the basis of my contention, that absolutely nothing has been provided for the benefit of the undertakings. Yet this charge is being demanded, and demanded with a threat that proceedings will be taken for recovery of the amounts. I submit to the Dáil that that is not a just and reasonable attitude. If the Minister can justify the proceedings in the opinion of the Dáil I will be very glad to hear his arguments. As things stand it seems to me, and I voice the opinion of the undertakings, that pending either the operation of a new Act or pending the carrying out of his obligations by the Minister, as well as the powers of the Act of 1919, the charges should not be levied.

Mr. P.S. DOYLE

I desire to support the motion, and I have no doubt it will meet with the approval of the Dáil. In supporting it, I wish to take this opportunity of urging on the Minister the necessity for increased activity by his Department in preventing infringement of the Merchandise Marks Act, so far as it affects the importation of goods, most of which could be made in this country. Under the Merchandise Marks Act importers are required to indicate the country of origin of goods. There seems to be a great deal of difficulty in preventing many of this class of goods getting through. A number of Irish manufacturing firms are sending work out of the country that could be produced here. That creates a certain amount of unemployment here. I found it necessary some time ago to direct the attention of the Ministry to the importation of lithographic and letterpress work. I am glad to say that the interest taken in the matter had the desired effect.

I know of certain large orders that would otherwise have gone to the other side of the Channel. A good deal of packages, show cards, and other elaborate work that came in recently bear no imprint showing the country of origin. I have samples of imported work that bear the imprint of Irish firms. That is very misleading to people who are anxious to support Irish industries and who look to such firms to give employment here. Through some underhand methods the work is sent away, but the people here are left under the impression that it is being done in Ireland. I am quite satisfied from the activities of the Department that I have referred to that it will do a good deal to stop this practice. I am merely quoting instances that occurred in the printing trade, as within the last few weeks a number of firms in that trade have ceased business in the city. Trade is very bad; there is a great deal of unemployment, and short time is being worked in most houses. What applies to that trade applies equally to other manufacturing concerns. The Dáil must endeavour to prevent unemployment, and to prevent the abuses that I have complained of. A little more attention by the Department will, I have no doubt, have the desired effect.

Mr. JOHNSON

The Deputy who moved the Motion is not present. I would have liked to ask him exactly what it means. We are asked to express our satisfaction as to the services on which the Vote is to be extended. We are not sure what those services are to be, but I hope we shall have some information from the Minister as to the extent of the services his Department is to render, and the policy the Department is to pursue in reference to wider matters than those that have been touched upon. Amongst the services which are to be rendered, on which we are asked to express our satisfaction are, we will say, the preparation of statistics. I put a supplementary question to the Minister this morning, and he said that no doubt he could obtain the information sought —information which should be available if Deputies are to be free to make comparisons between the position of this country in regard to strikes and the position of other countries. That information concerns the actual number of strikes and the number of people affected by strikes. Such information has been available in most countries, and if one refers to it one finds that the number of strikes and the number of days' labour lost by them for several years has been greater in many other countries of a similar size, than in this country. I am only putting that forward as a peg to base an argument in favour of very much more information coming out of the Minister's Department than we have yet been given.

I find, for instance, that in the year 1923 in the area surrounding Buenos Aires, in the Argentine, with a population of 1,700,000, that there were six general and 87 partial strikes, and that in the little country of Switzerland in 1923 in the Province of Basle, with a population of 141,000, there were strikes which cost 100,000 days in loss of work, and this year a big strike, not yet concluded, has already lasted 20 weeks, and has upset a great deal of the national industry. I am mentioning these figures to show that, as a matter of fact, in other countries statistics of this kind are available, and we think they should be available here. That would enable the Deputies to publish and relate the circumstances here of the conditions in other countries, and to have a better perspective in regard to the situation here. We expect from the Ministries as a whole, and this Ministry as much as the others, the information which is requisite to enable us to carry on our work with intelligence. We have no substitute for the old British Trade Journal or the Labour Gazette. We have very little information regarding the Departmental work, such as had been supplied in these publications, whether affecting commerce or affecting labour in the narrow sense.

I suggest to the Ministry that if the Statistics Department were allowed to publish the information, which, in fact, is at its disposal, and has been compiled, that its work then would prove of value not only to the Ministry, but to the country, and that to have a big expensive Department of Statistics simply for the information of the Departments of Government is not satisfactory, with the information that is compiled hidden from the Dáil. That practically means an uneconomic expenditure to a very great extent, and we ought to have not only compiled but published and correlated the information that is obtained and accumulated by the Statistics Department. If information were available, for instance, as to the decisions on unemployment insurance cases by the umpires that would be useful. We have nothing of that kind published now, and that is a very important omission. When we decided to set up business on our own account it might have been expected that we should at least keep books, and that book-keeping entries would be available for the partners in the firm, but, apparently, they are only available for some of the Departmental employees. I think, too, that I would be supported generally in the claim that we should have at our disposal information respecting taxation. We at least ought to know what is the sum derived from the various schedules of income tax, and we ought to know something about the number of persons who are paying super tax, and whatever information has been available in the past in this respect, as obtainable from the British figures, ought to be available to enable us to know whether it is good policy to continue the present rate of 5s. in the £ as the normal, and whether we should increase or decrease the super tax and other forms of taxation.

Mr. GOOD

Does this come under the Ministry of Commerce?

Mr. JOHNSON

It was under the Statistics Department. I believe they are the people who compile all statistics.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

No.

Mr. JOHNSON

We are asked to vote for the services on which money is to be expended, and it is only by this process we are able to find out what the process is.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

There are the estimates.

Mr. JOHNSON

The estimates only tell us there is a Statistics Department and certain officers. We do not know from these what work the Statistics Department undertake, and we have been told, as a matter of fact, that the various Departments of the Government on the statistical side, have been gathered together under the Ministry of Commerce. Perhaps the Ministry will help to increase our knowledge of these things, and to justify the motion that has been put forward. Whether it is under his Department or not, perhaps the Minister would use his influence with the Ministry of Finance, so that we would have this information and know what our vote next year should be for the extension of the activities of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. In a general way I plead for a very great improvement in the publicity side of the Statistics Department, and that we should be given very much more information regarding the trade of the country, unemployment statistics, and information regarding decisions of umpires in unemployment insurance cases, and also something to replace, periodically produced, the Journal and the Gazette of the British Board of Trade and Labour Departments.

But I want also to press upon the Ministry the necessity for telling the Dáil something more about its policy. We had a discussion yesterday and we learned from the Minister, very emphatically, that in his view, and I presume the view of the Government as a whole, it is not the function of the Dáil or of the Government to provide work, and that while it may be the function of Government to prevent people dying from hunger, it could not provide employment, that is to say, the people who can provide employment and do not, are to be allowed to refuse access to the means of life. That is a very important statement. It is well to have it made quite clear that the Government accepts no responsibility for good Government in this country in the sphere of economics.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Deputy does not profess to be quoting me on this point?

Mr. JOHNSON

No, I am making it quite clear what your statement implies.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Your interpretation of it.

Mr. JOHNSON

I hope I am wrong in that interpretation, and that the Minister will make clear what is his meaning. At any rate, I think the Minister will hardly deny that he said the Dáil has no responsibility for providing employment, so that there is the alternative to the unemployed men that they must find means to live by some other way than by employment. There has been provision in the past insurance schemes, and my plea now is to learn from the Minister what he is going to do in respect of the unemployed men whose insurance benefits have ceased, or will cease, within the next two or three weeks, and who will be forced to obtain a livelihood by some other means than work. The question of insurance and the insurance fund is very important. It is necessary that we should have, at the earliest possible date, some understanding of what the position of the country is to be in that respect. Failing employment and the fulfilment of the obligations of the private employer, and the refusal of the Government to accept responsibility in this matter, we are forced to ask what is to be the future of the unemployed workman? We have committed ourselves to the view—I hope it will be maintained—that the workhouse relief method is not one that we should continue if we can find any other means. It comes to this, that the unemployment insurance scheme will have to be extended and developed.

It is useless, I suggest, to consider this unemployment insurance as an insurance based upon the normal figures of unemployment; you are dealing with an abnormal number, and you cannot allow the failure of the normal procedure, and the benefit that is provided by the present scheme, to leave large numbers in utter distress and want. I want the Minister to tell the Dáil and the country how soon he proposes to introduce a Bill for the further extension of unemployment insurance benefit. A great deal will depend on the answer to that question. As every Deputy knows, there are many people in the utmost need to-day, and may I say that the need that is spoken of is not merely the need of people living in the slums of any city or town. I have had my attention drawn to cases of men who have been unemployed for months and years, tradesmen, skilled artisans, who have been able to live only by the chances of charity, and such assistance as they have got through a provision by insurance.

The horrible part of it all is that the benefit which has hitherto been available will not be available within three weeks from now in some of the cases I have in mind, and even in less time than that in other cases. There is a necessity for the extension of the scheme of unemployment insurance that at present operates. I very earnestly ask the Minister to tell the Dáil what his intentions are respecting this matter. The question of a larger policy with respect to the trade and commerce of the country is, no doubt, very important, but not of such immediate importance as this question of unemployment insurance. The immediate need is to provide a livelihood for thousands of people, and I ask the Minister, in view of his statement yesterday, that it is not the function of the Dáil or the Government to provide work, to tell us whether he has any plans for the maintenance of the provision of necessaries for the people for whom employment cannot be found, and for people who have not access to the means of living by any other course than employment. I leave it at that, but I ask the Minister to give us as full and considered a statement as possible, for very much depends on the answer he gives.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I have been informed that the Minister in his day was a very distinguished member of the Debating Society of his University, and that, in fact, he won the gold medal awarded by that Society. When he entered the Dáil one expected to see some evidences of those gifts of his, but those evidences were not forthcoming until he became a Minister and found himself in the fortunate position of rising at the end of a debate, when no further reply could be made to him, and when he gave us many entertaining, illuminating, and quite coruscating examples of what real debating skill could be. If any other Deputy made a contribution that happened to be disconcerting to him he always picked out some phrase that might have been otherwise put, and made a score upon that particular phrase, and then in that brilliant example of debating covered himself when answering the real questions that had been put to him. Let me give an example of it. The Minister sent out at 1 o'clock for a copy of the Official Debates, and that copy was brought in to him under the cover of a Departmental book, and passed over to him folded inside out. He has it there. The occasion of that was that Deputy Hewat gave an inaccurate recollection of some words he spoke on a previous occasion in the Dáil. Deputy Hewat said that he had not opposed the appointment of Electricity Commissioners. Now some of us who remember the occasion more perfectly than Deputy Hewat remembered that Deputy Hewat's recollection was not quite correct, and that he did oppose the appointment of those Commissioners.

The Minister, being a very keen debater, also remembered it, and he sent out for a copy of those debates. He has it there and he intends, or did intend, quoting it to show that Deputy Hewat had not stated what was exactly the case. He intends, or did intend, to throw down these debates as a refutation of Deputy Hewat's contention. The Dáil may not have noticed that the contention that Deputy Hewat brought forward had not been answered, and would not be answered by any such superficial retort. I mention that for a particular reason. The particular reason is that the Minister has frequently given us considerable entertainment by indulging in pyrotechnical displays of debate, tempting Deputies to remember that perhaps he has not exactly a monopoly of irony or acidity, if others desired to enter the rival lists with him in those contentions. But what is actually more to the moment is to go back over the records in the Department of Industry and Commerce for the last six or seven months, and having regard to the circumstances that the country has to face to-day, to ask oneself exactly what foundation there is for the amendment that is before us, that the Dáil is satisfied as to the services on which the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce is to be extended. There have been three Bills, as the Minister himself very candidly informed us yesterday, before the Dáil from the Minister's Department. The first was the Railways Bill, to which he was the heir and which he saw through this House, with real mastery of detail and with skill. That was the first Bill. The second was the Unemployment Insurance Bill, and the third has been the Trades Loans Guarantee Bill. As regards the first Bill, whether it will or will not prove a success, is a matter that lies for the future to decide, but the immediate effect has been to cause a sharp drop in railway shares at the very moment when the financial market here could very ill afford a decline. With regard to the second undertaking, that was a very necessary and wise Bill. But it was a Bill to provide ointment for the very evils that the real function of the Department was intended to avert by its normal exercise. We have got to-day, as Deputy Cooper pointed out, to face a situation where the cash value of our exports has declined and shows an adverse balance against the cash value of our imports. The consequence to-day to the country is, as every trader and business man knows, that credit in every department is restricted. There is not, as the President pointed out, and there cannot, in the circumstances, be that amount of currency in the country that is naturally attracted by our credit balance and that there was here two or three years ago.

Deputy Cooper dealt with the analysis of this year's figures. I think it would be more truthful if he were to look back over the figures of several years. It was in 1898 that Ireland first turned an adverse balance on the figures of exports and imports into a credit balance, and from 1898 down to about 1922 that credit balance was satisfactorily maintained. We have no actual figures for the completion of the year 1922, but for 1913, 1920, and 1921 the average balance in our favour ranged round about 27 per cent., a very healthy state of affairs, of which every part of the community shared the benefits. Similarly, to-day, when that balance has turned against us, every section of the community is sharing the evil. I was listening the other night to Deputy Johnson pointing out that it is not by cash balances, for or against, that the real wealth of the community is to be measured, and I am not going to contend that society cannot be so organised that these benefits should not be more equally distributed and these evils more equally shared. What I do say is that Deputy Johnson's contention was only a partial truth. It is true that when a cash balance is standing against a country every section of the community does to some measure have to pay the price, and it is true to-day that it is not only the trading community but every section of the community that is sharing the evil of this state of affairs that changed sometime in 1923, or at the end of 1922, for the first time for twenty-four years. Little can be done, and it is not skill in debate that will help to answer these questions. These questions can only be answered, in the first instance, by the Department of Industry and Commerce making available for the whole of us that statistical analysis of the present position that would help the country to find out exactly, not only what was wrong, but where the wrong has occurred.

There is one Bill that has been promised to the Dáil for some time by the Minister that we have not received, and I would like him to say when we are going to have it before us. That is the Bill for taking a census of production. A well-organised, carefully devised census of production is one of the first things this country requires. I would urge that it should be followed not only by a census of production, but what is a great deal harder to do, and is of equal importance—that is a census of consumption, in order that we may have an analysed table before us showing exactly how much is being produced in the country, how much is being consumed in the country, and how much the country is consuming of its own production, and to what extent it is dependent on the production of other countries, in order then that we may be able to direct our finger to the various points where we could help to revise the present economic system, so as to restore the balance in our favour, as it stood in our favour for twenty-four years. That is a matter that should be done, and must be done, because no one is deceived by the fact that the figures for August have shown a recovery. It was inevitable that the figures for August should show a recovery. It is on the balance of the entire year that an estimate must be made, and that estimate could not be a very fortunate one if there were not some months in the year in which the export figures showed a satisfactory balance over the import figures. But the general position is bad and is leading to the causes of unemployment.

I have definite cases before me of men who have had, because of the present restriction of credit, to dismiss hands, because they are not able to conduct their establishments on the same scale as before. That restriction of credit is directly due to the fact that we have to face, nationally speaking, an adverse balance. But there is a definite case where we had a right to expect from the Minister for Industry and Commerce and from his Department—I will not say some activity in this connection. Perhaps the activity was there. One knows that the Department exists and that the Department works, but it is right that this Dáil should be informed of exactly what is being done to confront this situation. Even if work is being done in this connection, and even if the work is all that could possibly be done in this connection, it is right that the country be informed in order that the country might know that steps are being taken to rectify the sad state of affairs and evils which are being shared by every section and every member of the community. I hope advantage will be taken, at the same time, of informing the House of exactly what offers, what proposals, are before the Department in connection with the third of the three Acts which he mentioned as sponsor in this Dáil; that is to say, the Trades Loan Guarantee Act. We learn that he has had offers. He has informed us of certain offers that he has had. It is right that we should learn what these offers are, in order that we may be able to get some estimation of the actual work being done under that Act. But those offers are not, and could not be, what they would have been if we had managed to maintain the position that was recovered for this country at the end of the last century and maintained ever since, but which we now have unfortunately lost.

But the question before the country, the paramount issue, is at all costs, to restore that balance that stood in our favour. Deputy Cooper referred to the fact that we were no doubt being largely helped by what economists call invisible exports in the way of dividends received on investments abroad. There is another calculation which it is right for us to remember in that connection. If that particular invisible export were standing in our favour, which it is, it is also true that there is one other which is standing to our disfavour, and that is the fact that we have no mercantile shipping, and that the services rendered in respect of mercantile shipping are a very important factor in the exchanges between one country and another, that go to make up the sum of their credits and debits.

Touching upon mercantile shipping, brings me to the last point I want to make inquiries about. It has been complained that Irish shipping, of which we have so precious little, owing to unfortunate circumstances, has suffered injury because Irish shipping is not in the position to sail the high seas flying its own flag. In the previous Dáil, the Minister's predecessor in office promised us a Bill dealing with this question. He promised us that Bill would be laid before a Dáil enabling us to pass legislation in order that Irish shipping on the high seas should fly the Irish flag, and that Bill has not been forthcoming. I know there has been a great number of political rumours in that connection which may or may not be true, but it is surely the wish of the Dáil that the Ministry should insist upon the fact that we should be in a position to establish our international rights by sending forth such shipping as we have under our own flag. We have that right clearly defined for us under the Treaty, and I have had this matter raised before me, time and time again, not only by persons who hold the political faith of the majority in this country, but by those who sometimes used to be known as Unionists, but who have nevertheless said, "We are Irishmen first and last, and we have a right to know if there is any other country prohibiting us from the right to fly our own flag on the high seas and in the ports that our ships may visit." That should be done not merely from reasons of patriotism, which would be sufficient, but for another reason, which is a sound business reason. That is that until shipping is in a position to fly its own national flag, the trade of that country does not receive the advantage of that shipping which it should receive.

These are the points I wish to mention. I think it is a very good thing we should have a motion like this before the Dáil on the present occasion. Ordinarily, it befalls only when the Estimates are discussed, but this is an equivalent to debates on the Estimates, because we had to pass the Estimates hastily owing to the pressure of time at the end of the last session. It is only when Estimates are being discussed that the House has an opportunity of discussing the Departmental concerns of the Ministry, but owing to the very great importance to the national welfare of this Ministry it would be a good thing if we were to enlarge the practice and have quite frequently opportunities put before the House for discussion on the whole activities of outstanding, critical Ministries like this.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Deputy Major Cooper, who opened after this motion had been proposed and seconded, said that he wished to call attention to the general state of commerce in the country, and proceeded to base his view of the state of the country on the returns of the shipping imports and exports as provided by the Department of Industry and Commerce. Having gone through these figures and shown or expatiated on the fact, which we all recognise, sorrowfully recognise, that the imports at the moment are greater than the exports, he divided these into certain classes, one of which he describes as inevitable imports, on which he founded a suggestion later. That suggestion was that these inevitable imports, as he called them, should, as far as possible, notwithstanding the phrase which he did use, "inevitable imports," decrease. In that connection he referred to the possibility of supplying through electrical energy some portion of the coal that was being sold in the country and which bulks so largely in the schedule of imports. He expressed the hope that I would be able to say at what stage the scheme for the development of the Shannon was, and if I am to take it in the connection in which he used the reference, I presume, to communicate also how far the Shannon scheme, if developed, would supply power to do away with portion of these large imports.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE took the Chair.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

With regard to that scheme, it was presented to me in due course when at Geneva. Experts were appointed and put into the expert advisory work and expert examination work at once. They visited the country at different intervals and returned to their own countries, and further meetings will take place. One is to be held in Sweden, where one section of the work will be gone into by two of the experts, meeting with, for the purpose of examination, some of Siemen's experts. The other two experts live together in Zurich, and are at present engaged on the examination of the portion of the scheme which has become the main object of their own particular examination. They return here on or about the 20th of this month, and between that date and the end of the month I hope to get the report. It is absolutely impossible for me at the present moment to state how the minds of the experts are turning on this project. I have heard them express certain views. They were expressed to me confidentially. I might even state what these views were, if I were not aware that there were certain schemes which run in opposition to the Shannon scheme, and I could be legitimately accused of trying to prejudice and sway public opinion in favour of a scheme which is still under examination. If I were to give vent to any of the expressions of opinion given to me by these experts, it might be said I was condemning the scheme before it was judged, or working up a campaign in favour of it before it was judged. A scheme of that sort depends on many items, any one of which might involve the destruction of the scheme. Until these people have been able to get a comprehensive view of the whole project, it is impossible to state with any accuracy, or forecast, how the scheme progresses. It is being examined, and the report is being awaited. The arrangements are that the report will be in the hands of the Government somewhere between the 20th November and the end of the month. Newspaper reports notwithstanding, no report has been put in my hands with regard to the scheme. I do not know anything officially of how the experts view it. I know nothing whatever of their views.

The other point, as to how far the scheme, if approved and developed to a particular point, would substitute power and do away with certain of the coal imports into the country, I could answer, but only very generally, because the scheme allows for a partial or a full development of the waterpower to be derived from the Shannon. Figures vary according to how far the scheme is to be developed, whether completely, only to a very minor point, or some intermediate point. I did get a rough estimate that about one quarter of the coal imported into this country could be saved by the development of the Shannon, which is considered most likely at the moment. About one quarter of the whole coal import could be done away with. Deputy Cooper had two other suggestions, one of which was that if any suggestions with regard to Colonial preference came forward—and he seemed to think they were likely under present circumstances in Great Britain —that a very careful eye should be kept on the situation, and we should endeavour to get our full share of any preference, or any benefit to be derived from preference in that way. That undoubtedly will be taken care of. Another point was the question of a substitute for consuls or trade agents abroad, having fixed residence and having headquarters of a very limited, localised type.

The idea of having a travelling commissioner in each country was put forward by the Deputy. I cannot say exactly that I agree with him in that matter, but the question of having trade representatives abroad has been occupying the attention of my Department for some time. It has been realised that the people who were taken over as a heritage from the Minister for External Affairs, who were functioning under the first Dáil, and who were sent for a particular purpose there, did not completely fulfil the purpose for which they were required. They were sent there really to be political representatives, and they did their work very well as such. Men chosen as political representatives were then asked to do work of a trade and commerce type, and they succeeded in doing very excellently very valuable work in that capacity. There is a feeling that further aid could be lent to those representatives of ours abroad by sending out, not a travelling Commissioner to function in countries ordinarily, but something in the nature of a trade mission.

It has been my endeavour to get in closer touch with industrial people generally in the country and to try to get through them the formation of certain committees. It is my hope eventually, if I can persuade the Minister for Finance to supply the necessary moneys, to get a certain amount set aside so that I may be able to send off a deputation of certain industrialists, chosen from those Advisory Committees, who go into the various countries, travelling about for a fixed period, and then report back to me as to where exactly those permanent men should direct their main endeavours. That is the project I have in mind. I am trying to develop that as speedily as possible.

Deputy Cooper also raised the question of an economic general staff which might think out a policy for the future, and have regard to likely changes in the fiscal policies of other countries. He suggested that that staff might also have regard to the contingency of any strikes of importance that might occur in Great Britain or elsewhere, and that would be likely to affect our markets. To a certain extent, the staff that I have around me are an economic general staff, and they do the work of an economic general staff very well; but they are hampered in their efforts by one matter to which Deputy Johnson referred later, and that is the fact that there are not available at the moment complete and detailed statistics that would be desirable with regard to all matters of industry in the country.

When a short discussion took place on Vote 52 before the Recess, I did make the statement to Deputy Johnson that I would endeavour to get in touch with the Minister for Finance with a view to establishing a centralised statistical bureau, which would deal with statistics generally, and would supply information such as is supplied in the Board of Trade Gazette and the Labour Gazette.

I cannot at this moment say that I have got that project carried through. I have, however, got agreement on certain matters, and statistics are likely to be centralised. Next year, if Deputy Johnson raises the criticisms that he raised this year, I shall not have the easy answer for him that there is no centralised bureau, and I may not be responsible for the centralised statistical bureau; but if it remains attached to the present Statistical Department, I will not then be able to say that I have no control over centralised statistics. The step has been taken of getting together a small Advisory Committee of experts to advise as to what statistics should be collected and what general line of statistical attack should be developed. On the report of that Committee—certain agreements have been reached beforehand—it is hoped that the centralised statistical bureau will materialise. We do expect to have, not quite a Census of Production Bill in this House, but a general statistical measure brought before the Dáil, and that will enable me to get not merely what would be included in a Census of Production Act, but certain statistical information which will be at the disposal of members and at the disposal of the general public.

Mr. JOHNSON

Might I draw the Minister's attention to the suggestion regarding the publication of information of importance coming within his Department, as apart from statistics? I refer, for instance, to decisions of umpires and matters of information, rather than statistics which appeared in British journals in the old days.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I did make a promise to Deputy Johnson on that point also in June or July last. I did venture to express the view that there was certain information at present being collected and pigeon-holed in my Department which might usefully be made available for a limited number of people. It could not be published in widespread form. The question of an economic journal is bound up with the general statistical centralised bureau. The whole matter has now become merged in this Committee. If the Deputy thinks there is any great advantage to be derived from a partial publication which would be of interest to him or of interest to people generally, and if he presses it I will give it consideration; but if this Committee is to get to work, and if the report of the Committee is to be acted on immediately, so that I may in good time bring in a Statistical Bill to enable me to proceed next year to take a census of production and act upon other matters advised by the Committee, it would be better not to hamper some of the officials. It would be better if we could avoid one of the officials serving on that Committee having to get out information in a partial form.

Mr. JOHNSON

Why not transfer the publication to the Publicity Department?

Mr. GOOD

Might I intervene at this stage in order to explain one point that arises? There is such a publication as Deputy Johnson has referred to issued by the Board of Trade Department in Great Britain, and it is known as Form K. I do not know if the Minister is aware of that publication. That conveys to manufacturers and others the requirements of different countries at different periods. Information of that kind, if it could be collected and distributed, would be most valuable to manufacturers and others.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That approaches the problem from the other end. I was beginning with the collection of statistical materials internally. The Deputy is referring to the publication of reports that would come in from trade agents abroad and from the High Commissioner's Office.

Mr. GOOD

I mean a publication corresponding with what is done in Britain—corresponding, say, with the consular reports.

Mr. JOHNSON

It might be no harm on that point to advance a suggestion regarding matters connected with various Departments in the Government. Different regulations are made and they are conveyed, for instance, to local Boards, Insurance Committees, and other local authorities respecting housing, and so on. They are matters affecting public administration, and it is only by making special inquiries that one can get information on those subjects. It seems to me that it would be quite convenient and not too expensive to have information of that kind collated, and summaries printed and circulated and made available for an interested public and for the various Departments dealing with public affairs. That is not wholly, of course, in the Minister's Department. I acknowledge that. The whole question, however, of publicity in regard to administration and administrative affairs is important and would save an immense amount of letter-writing and would leave money in the pockets of many Deputies by reason of postage money saved.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

And it would also save very definitely the time of officials in the Department. There would be a considerable saving all round. This matter could be discussed from many angles. I have discussed it from certain angles. The only question that arises is whether or not there is going to be a centralised statistical bureau or something equivalent to that, a Department which would have power to get from all the other Departments information that those Departments have at their disposal, and have all that information published somehow. There is a further point. Deputy Good referred to reports from abroad regarding certain trade requirements. That matter is bound up with the question of our trade representatives abroad and the trade mission that I have referred to. If I can get from the Committee a report laying down certain lines, I could get a trade mission composed of certain people to go abroad and work on the lines laid down by the Committee. Then they could report to me from their journeyings abroad as to where certain information would be likely to be most easily collected. That would be information of utility to manufacturers here. The Department here could take extracts that would be useful in published form from the reports of the trade mission. In that way, through the High Commissioner, the trade mission and our foreign representatives, we would have information that could be published through the Department and that would be of use to the general public. The other point was one that Deputy Cooper raised, in order to encourage people with money to remain in the State, or to return to the State. That is not a matter for my Department singly. It is a matter for the Minister for Justice to execute the laws so that people may be induced to live in the country.

Major COOPER

I said it was for the whole Ministry.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The country is not in such a state that people would naturally come into it without timidity. It is a matter for the Minister for Finance by lowering death taxes to make it an easy country to die in.

Mr. GOOD

We must get them to live first in the country.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That is a matter for general discussion and policy, and for approval by the Ministry. I do not think anybody will say it has been the policy of the Ministry to keep people out of the country. It may be alleged by Deputy Hewat that our taxation does in fact keep people out of the country.

Mr. GOOD

He is tired saying it.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

It is quite easy to say that, but how to reduce your taxation and bring your rate of living within your actual income is a matter that the Minister for Finance is very much intrigued about. That, I do not think, is a matter that an easy solution can be found for. I must not coruscate on the point affecting Deputy Hewat, or I might incur the displeasure of Deputy Figgis. I ask Deputy Figgis to remember one thing, and that is when you enter on that slippery slope of not adding to or subtracting from anything you may write to a newspaper—even with the value, or the absence of value which one's name might lend—you are apt to deteriorate in some other respects. The Deputy's remarks here on this matter were rather, in one respect, of the key-hole order. He said that I had recollected that Deputy Hewat had forgotten what he had said in the debate, and that I had got a copy of this brought in under cover of a Departmental file. I asked for it in the most open way, and I was entitled to ask it, and I had got it brought in in the most open way. Because Deputy Figgis has got between—may I say—the hammer and the anvil, on this occasion I do not think that Deputy Hewat should be allowed to ride off airily on that statement that he did not object to the appointment of Electricity Commissioners.

Mr. HEWAT

I thought I would be required to give a personal explanation. If the Dáil will remember, I emphatically laid it down that the adoption of the 1919 Act here was not agreed to by the Electricity Undertakings nor by anybody else. It was an Act passed by the British House of Commons in 1919. Therefore, although for administrative purposes some of the provisions of the Act have been taken over, they were never agreed provisions. As far as the Electricity Commissioners were concerned, we all recognise, and must recognise, that the basis laid down for the Electricity Commissioners in the Act of 1919 would be simply absurd if applied to Ireland. One undertaking in Great Britain would turn out more electricity than would be required for the whole of the Free State.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I do not want to harp on what might be described as a verbal victory. The Deputy's case is this: His plea was definitely against my attempting to get from an electricity organisation to which he belongs certain moneys, and, mark you, that I demanded these moneys on the threat of proceedings. He did not say that the threat of proceedings went with the very first demand note. I took the ordinary business way of sending out one or two appeals just as Deputy Hewat has done in his own ordinary business way. He knows how these things are done. I did say that proceedings would have to be taken under a certain Act. As long as there is legislation here under which I am responsible to this House to get in certain moneys from certain undertakings, I will have to get it, and if my right is challenged to do so the place to challenge it is in the Courts. Then we get this ad miseracordiam appeal, as if Deputy Hewat was a poor tenant and I was a harsh landlord, and the threats of proceedings were used against the Deputy because moneys were not paid which I could legitimately demand and am bound to demand. He bases his plea for this case on the fact that the Electricity Act of 1919 has become law, but that it would not have been law if the Dublin Corporation had not been preoccupied with other things and had been able to appear before the British Parliament to oppose it. There, again, I may remark I felt some slight amusement to hear Deputy Hewat pleading for the Dublin Corporation on account of its vicarious opposition to the British Government and at his now asking some benefits from this House which I cannot allow.

Mr. HEWAT

Admitting the debating ability of the Minister, I do not think he is putting a fair construction upon my argument. The basis of my argument was this, that the 1919 Act laid down certain obligations and imposed certain charges. He himself will admit that this House and his Department has had under consideration from the moment this Assembly became operative the question of a main Act controlling the supply of electricity in the Saorstát. Pending the Department's decision as to their own Act of Parliament, they should either put into operation one side or the other.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

As far as I can gather, the serious objection taken to my action is that I demanded certain moneys from this association, because an Act happened to be in force in this country which would not be in force if the Dublin Corporation had not been prevented for certain reasons from appearing in the British Parliament to oppose it.

Mr. HEWAT

I object to that altogether. It is absolutely wrong, and the Minister is only trying to make a case. Let him make a frank case on the merits, leaving the Corporation out of it altogether. The essence of the matter is not the Corporation's objection. The essence of the matter is, that the Act of 1919, as he knows, is utterly unsuitable to this country.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I will leave the Corporation out. An Act is in operation in this country, though it should not have been put into operation in the country—that is what the Deputy says now—but it is actually in operation here. Under the Ministers and Secretaries Act, the Minister for Industry and Commerce was constituted Electricity Commissioner for the purposes of this Act.

Mr. HEWAT

I cannot allow that to pass without drawing attention to the fact that the Minister got that in on a side issue. It was got in on the Schedule to the Ministers and Secretaries Act.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Deputy now says that by a side issue, and in a most treacherous and secretive way I got myself appointed Electricity Commissioner for the purposes of the 1919 Act. The Deputy knew of this most treacherous move that was on. He opposed the Ministers and Secretaries Bill on this particular point. I have the case as stated by him in the Official Report, and I have also got the case put up to me in the correspondence that took place with those people, and the case comes to this: that this charge is inequitable because it is a breach of an agreement made by the President and the late Attorney-General in the Dáil when the Ministers and Secretaries Bill was going through, on this particular clause. That is the correspondence as it came to me. I searched the debates upon that point, and I find the Deputy confined his objection mainly to one point. The appointment of Electricity Commissioners, he said, would be extravagant in this country, and he expatiated on the payments that would have to be given to these Commissioners. That was the case presented to me before I sent out the letter demanding, under threat of proceedings, the payments due. That is the case made by his organisation, that it was a breach of the agreement given by the President and the Attorney-General. I read through these statements and I am not conscious that I have broken any agreement given by the President or the late Attorney-General in the course of that debate. It is a very definite point, and I can be challenged upon it, and I have the quotation here if the Deputy wishes to examine it.

Mr. HEWAT

I am not challenging upon verbal matters at all. I am challenging upon the broad principle that the Minister bases his charge, on this introduction into the Schedule to the Act.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I only stress this point. There is now in operation in this country a certain Act, and I have to call for certain payments under that Act. I will be called to account if I do not get these payments in, and I am going to pass the burden of responsibility to somebody else. If anyone has to appear in the courts about it, it will not be me.

Let me take up the other point: that it is inequitable on account of the pledges alleged to have been given by the President or anyone else. The fact is, here is an Act, and certain powers and certain obligations rest upon me as an Electricity Commissioner. If there are certain obligations from which benefits should have accrued to the Electricity Undertaking and that are to be charged for, and that these benefits have not accrued to the Electricity Undertaking, then I can be brought to book. I can be challenged upon them. Is there anything I have not done that I should have done?

Mr. HEWAT

Yes, certainly; you have done nothing at all.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I ask, was there anything that I had not done that I should have done? Is there any obligation under any portion of the Act that I have not fulfilled?

Mr. HEWAT

Two years have passed and we are still without a controlling Act of our own.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Is that under the 1919 Act? I am on that Act now. There is the 1919 Act which is law in this country, and these payments must be made. The Deputy says there are certain obligations incumbent upon me, that from these if I carry them out certain benefits will accrue to the undertaking, and that in consideration of the obligations imposed upon me there are certain benefits to be derived from the undertaking. The Deputy's case is that I make charges and that I do nothing.

Mr. HEWAT

The case I make is that you have taken over the 1919 Act simply for administrative purposes and pending legislation of your own.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I am not forgetting the question of legislation of our own or the fact that there has been a delay. That, however, is another point. The point I make now is that it is incumbent on me to make certain charges upon you.

Mr. HEWAT

I say it is not a justified charge.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The fact of the matter is that the Ministry here can exercise all the powers given to the Commissioners under the Act. It was thought fit in England to allow certain charges to be made on the undertakings in return for benefits to be derived from the Act. I am in the position of having to exercise here all the powers of the Electricity Commissioners under the Act. If the British undertakings contribute under the 1919 Act and if other undertakings here of a similar type contribute under much the same circumstances, I cannot see why an exception should be made in favour of Electricity undertakings, particularly when the charges we make on these undertakings are lowered as far as they can be compatibly with the carrying out of the Act. They are lowered, I might say, almost to vanishing point.

Mr. HEWAT

The Minister says that he represents the Electricity Commissioners with all their powers. Would he compare what he has done with what they have done in England? The Commissioners in England have done a certain amount of good for the undertakings, but nothing has been done here on a corresponding scale.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Before I could accept that statement I would require to make a comparison with what has been done in England. I understand the Deputy's case to be that Electricity Commissioners should not be appointed in this country. The charges that are made on the undertakings here are exceptionally low, and if there is any further reduction in them they may disappear altogether. Remember, if they do disappear, and if the Dáil is asked later to pass new legislation which will make the charges disappear, then the Dáil will be going against the principle of the 1919 Act, which is that these undertakings should be asked to contribute towards the administration of an Act passed for their own benefit. Many things are passed for people's benefit that do not work out in a beneficial way, in the way that people would like they would work out for their benefit.

Mr. HEWAT

The Minister is ignoring the fact altogether that I say the 1919 Act should never have applied here.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Deputy opened his speech by saying: "If the Dublin Corporation had done something and if some other body had done something." Then, on these hypotheses he said he had reached a certain definite conclusion. By the strength of his diction founded on two or three hypotheses he tries now to make up for the weakness of his case.

Mr. HEWAT

In this instance Ireland was included in the Act that was passed in 1919. My point is that Ireland should have been excluded. The Minister now comes along and says that we accepted the Act and that he is going to grind money out of this undertaking even though he has not fulfilled any part of the obligations imposed on him by the Act of 1919.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That brings me to another point. I am now told that I have not fulfilled any of my obligations under the Act. The Act is abhorrent to Deputy Hewat in his capacity as a representative of the electricity undertaking. His attitude is, that the Act is abhorrent to him and that it should never have been passed and that if the circumstances at the time had been different it would have been opposed and would not be in operation here now. That is the kind of attitude that is taken up now. Will it be believed that one of these undertakings has actually applied for a particular benefit under the Act, that they have applied to me to make use of this Act which is so abhorrent to them and for which they will make no payment. One of the undertakings has made application for a benefit which they could not get except under this Act of 1919. The Act is so abhorrent to them that they will not pay any money for its administration, but it is not so abhorrent that they will not seek benefit under it.

Mr. HEWAT

It is abhorrent in part. It does not necessarily follow that every item in it is abhorrent.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

In order to meet that point I just wish again to say that the charges have been made so low that any further lowering of them would make them disappear altogether. The point was also made that there has been some delay in bringing in electricity legislation here. That is a different matter altogether. Electricity legislation was promised and, as a matter of fact, it has been prepared, but some new touches had to be added to it recently. I could, if the Deputy thinks it is desirable, introduce a Bill dealing with electricity undertakings next month. I do not think it is desirable. We have certain big water power schemes of electrical development ahead, and we think it is desirable to stay as we are under this obnoxious Act until such time as the people in the Dáil and in the country can see what should be the proper attitude for electrical undertakings in this country. I agree with the Deputy that there may be certain electrical people who have a certain legitimate grievance possibly with regard to this legislation, but they must recognise that within the last six months the situation has changed somewhat, and that there is certainly a reason now for a delay of a few months longer. Under the electricity legislation that we have the charges that are being levied will have to be paid. I think it is a demoralising thing to see in this Dáil a business man stand up and plead that debts should remain outstanding and that debts should not be paid when they fall due. That is a very demoralising thing and I cannot conceive how the Deputy could have become demoralised to that extent were it not for the circumstance that he relied upon an ally alongside him to plead his case.

Mr. HEWAT

I recognise the fact that debts are debts, but I also recognise the fact that debts may not be debts if they are not due.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

If I may leave this electricity question for the present. I will now deal with the question raised by Deputy Doyle with regard to an infringement of the Merchandise Marks Act. He raised the question of articles coming in without having any mark of origin on them. I do not know if the Deputy, when he spoke, was aware of the terms of the Act. Articles may come in here, without any mark of origin, under these Acts. It may be thought desirable, and I do not know whether the Deputy proposes to communicate with me by letter on the matter, to have that Act amended so as to preclude such a thing happening. At the moment it is not an infringement of the Act simply to have articles coming in here without any indication of origin on them. If an article comes in bearing a false indication of origin, then most likely there would be an infringement under the Act. Deputy Johnson referred to statistics, and I hope that I have at least given him some grounds for the belief that there may be an improvement in that matter.

Mr. JOHNSON

Some grounds for hope.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Grounds for hope, yes. I do admit that there has been a certain legitimate grievance here also, that possibly things have not been as shipshape as they might, but I do not like to appear in the position of making excuses. The period that has been gone through must be remembered; people's minds were preoccupied with other things. An attempt is also now being made industrially to get our house in order, and it will be my endeavour to see that the collection of statistics will be put on a proper basis and that publication of them will be easier and much more frequent. The other point raised by the Deputy was a very serious matter; it was founded rather on the verbalism to which other people object. He took my phrase of last night when I said, and said very definitely, that I believed it was not the function of the Dáil or of the Government to provide employment, and I stress that point. It was a negative answer, and I stressed that negative answer.

I said it because I was answering a very definite statement made by Deputy Morrissey, who said that the population of this country was small, and that the Dáil ought to be able to provide employment. I want to stress this point, that there is no State control of industry here, and to that extent I have nothing to take away from the words I used last night. It is not the function of the Dáil directly and immediately to provide employment. I did say that. I used the same phrase last night to indicate that certain pressure could be put on people, that certain tendencies could be developed, and that certain adjustments in the fiscal system could be made so as to ensure, as far as we could ensure without interfering directly with trade or enterprise, that there would be more employment; but beyond that we cannot go; we cannot for the moment enter into the field of State interference or State control of industry. There is a great deal of State interference at present, but you cannot go to the point of State control——

Mr. JOHNSON

Does the Minister repudiate any responsibility for securing that opportunities for employment shall be provided?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

No. I think I have already stated that anything that can be done to see that employment will grow, and that employment will be provided for those eager and willing to work, that we will do. I made a statement last night of the approach of my Department to the problem by Unemployment Insurance, relief schemes, and certain remedial measures to foster trade and industry, and if there is anything that is missing from the chain which I revealed last night, I would like to have the gaps shown to me, and I would like to have further links put into my hand to forge into the chain. If there is anything beyond the point referred to by Deputy Johnson I would like to have it pointed out.

Mr. JOHNSON

Another thing is the fact that men are to-day unemployed, with no prospect of employment, because the industrial employing community cannot find a profit arising out of their employment.

Mr. GOOD

Why?

Mr. JOHNSON

I am not now arguing the merits of that at all. I mean to say that the situation is such that employers cannot give employment. I want to know what is to be the position of the unemployed workman in that case——

Mr. GOOD

The costs of production are too high.

Mr. JOHNSON

—and what is the re lation of the Government to that.

Mr. GOOD

This is raising a very big question and one which it is not possible to go into at the moment, but if we are to take up this question at all we will have to take it up in all aspects; we will not let Deputy Johnson have it all to himself.

AN LEAS CEANN COMHAIRLE

It would be better if the Minister was allowed to proceed, and Deputy Good could speak afterwards.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The difficulties of having questions of this sort debated in this way and taken upon the Vote of my Ministry must have been obvious from the beginning. The Deputy has put forward a certain proposition, violently resisted by Deputy Good, and resisted with reason by Deputy Good, and he asks—having put that proposition and having outlined certain conclusions that are likely to follow from it—what is the Government's attitude going to be towards it. The Government at the moment is not interfering actively in the way of controlling industry so as to secure certain things desired by Deputy Johnson. Unfortunately we have to deal with the results of certain things. We see people unemployed; we have to provide such assistance for the unemployed as we can; we have very limited State assistance at our disposal, and we are providing it in certain ways. We take a long view of the situation and we say that we will give a certain amount immediately, and a certain amount, with benefits to accrue, in the near future. The money may be spent extravagantly but there will be certain reproductive work from it, and then there will be the big remedial measures that will only have their effect later. That is the most we can do. There is a proposition that I suppose Deputy Johnson might put forward—I do not know if he is in favour of it or not— the question of nationalisation, the State control of industry. That is not to be argued out on the Vote of my Ministry.

Mr. JOHNSON

I am not putting that forward.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Well, the question which might lead to that is one of the points to be argued, and is not a question for debate simply upon the Estimate that was passed last year, and certain details of which were postponed for consideration. I do not want my remarks of last night to be misconstrued. I did stress definitely, and I said several times, that I believed it was not the function of the Government or of the Dáil to provide employment. That I want to restate, but it is not to go beyond that. It does not mean, for instance, what I implied from Deputy Johnson's further statement. Yesterday he gave the implication from my statement, that is to say the conclusion, that people will be forced to find a livelihood by some means other than employment. These two things together lead me to the conclusion that the implication that Deputy Johnson has drawn is that because it is no function of the Government to provide employment, therefore employment cannot be given. There is a tremendous distance between these two propositions. Our whole attitude is, as I said last night, to increase industrial activity. It does not mean that we will control it, that we will put a pistol at the heads of certain people and say, "You do this or else we will close you down, or we will operate for you." We are trying to increase activity in certain ways, and if there is any way that has not been tried I would like to have it shown to me. It will certainly be tried, and if it seems likely to be beneficial you will find that it will be adopted.

One thing the Deputy did ask was that there should be an extension of the Unemployment Insurance Act. The first benefit year under that Act has lapsed; it finished to-day. There were, of course, certain gaps in the period over which the benefit might be paid, but the benefit years were calculated so that there would be fewest gaps in the period in which unemployment was most likely to be rife, and the period we are coming into is, I think, the period in which there are least gaps.

Certain provision has already been made through that Act for the possibilities that the winter may bring in the way of extra unemployment, or the failure to find employment, during the winter. I cannot say at the moment that I am ready to extend the Unemployed Insurance Act; I have not seen that it is necessary. It has to be looked at not by itself but in conjunction with whatever extra relief schemes should be set up for the winter. If, then, it comes to the point that there is starvation and we can prevent that, it will be prevented, without putting the State into the position that there may be starvation for everybody in a year or two. But the position has to be very carefully examined, not only from the humanitarian aspect that appeals to everybody, that you would like to have everybody well fed and warmly clothed, but that there has to be some rationing out of the resources at our disposal. Certainly any case put up for extra relief on account of the failure of the harvest and the bad state of things will be carefully and sympathetically considered, but I cannot at this moment say that I will further the extension of the Unemployment Insurance Act.

Mr. CORISH

The Minister says he is not satisfied that a case was made out for the extension of the Unemployment Insurance Act. Has the Minister any figures now to show the number of people who were drawing money at the beginning of the year, at the period just lapsed, and towards the end? I think he will find on examination that while a great number of people started to draw the benefit, many were only entitled to ten or eleven days' benefit. The last Act looked to be a greater benefit in the beginning than it was. The important thing is that people who really wanted benefit and who were longest out of employment received no benefit at all, other than the few days' benefit at the beginning of each period. I think that ought to be carefully examined.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

What the Deputy has said is, of course, right. There were big numbers of people with only a very limited amount of benefit coming to them. That causes no delight to me to confess, and brings no joy to my heart. There is hard, stern necessity with regard to the State provision of money. The case has to be met not merely by pointing out examples, even a big number of examples, of people who will suffer; there has to be another angle from which to view the problem. That is what I am stressing. If the case can be made that these two conflicting points of view are together, of course some other provision either by way of relief or some other way must be made.

Mr. CORISH

I do not think it is right for the Minister to use the word "example" in this particular case. I think he will find that it is almost bordering on the rule rather than the exception in many districts. Some towns are in a very bad way.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

If I am to continue to debate this now I should have to go into questions—and Deputy Good might intervene in my support—of what is productive activity, and how far certain industries in the country can bear certain loads, and other matters which I do not want to go into, as they are matters for consideration and study rather than points to wrangle out in debate. I am answering Deputy Johnson who said that a great deal may turn on this. I am not in a position to say now that I will extend the Unemployment Insurance Act, but I by no means close the door. Deputy Figgis asked a few questions. I think he dealt with the census of production. There will be a Statistical Bill if the Committee reports along certain lines, along lines which would lead to the introduction of a general measure with regard to statistics.

Mr. FIGGIS

Will that entirely displace the census of production?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

It will include the census of production and will therefore displace it. As to the Trade Loans Guarantee Act, the Deputy asked for information. The House decided that it should have information, and decided the form in which it should have it. Reports will be presented in accordance with that.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I was not thinking so much of that as to get some indication of what applications have been made, in order that we may know how many will ultimately take advantage of the Act, and in order to show the amount of interest created by it.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

There have been about 100 applications, roughly, under Part I but not more than a dozen under Part II. of the Act. When I say that, it has to be remembered that the Committee under Part II. was not announced until, I think, the 21st of this month. There was very little opportunity for applications to be made and the statement from the Ministry drawing people's attention to the terms and conditions of Part II. was not published until about 10 days ago. The question of merchant shipping was also dealt with. Merchant shipping legislation has been under consideration for a long time. The principal Act was one of almost 800 clauses and there have been amending Acts, at the rate, almost, of 1 every year for 20 or 25 years since. It is a task of considerable difficulty to codify these and adapt them to present circumstances, or to break out on a new code of merchant shipping legislation of our own, taking into consideration merchant shipping legislation in other countries, and not the old code under which we used to operate. Attention was directed to it for a long time and it was thought at one time that we might have a new code of our own ready for introduction early next year. Certain other more urgent matters of legislation cut across this. I cannot at present hold out any hope that a Bill will be introduced early next year. It is a matter of considerable difficulty to prepare, and I estimate that it would take not less than four months to get it through the Oireachtas. It is the task of greatest magnitude that confronts my Department.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I was not thinking so much of the actual recodification of the Merchant Shipping Acts of which we are the heirs. Of course that is a very formidable task and would take a long time. The Minister's predecessor promised us a small Act authorising the flying of an Irish merchant shipping flag on the high seas.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

If shipping legislation came along, the question of the flag would come along. The idea of separate legislation with regard to our flag at sea was deferred at the time, as it was considered that merchant shipping legislation would soon be introduced. That hope having disappeared, possibly the question of something separate to deal with our flag at sea may be considered. Personally I was not aware that so much interest was taken in the matter. I think it could easily have waited until merchant shipping legislation was brought in. If I find there is any great desire that this point should be tackled at once it can be done, but it will have to fit in with the requirements of the Department and of the Parliamentary draftsman's office. It will have to rank in accordance with its importance.

I do not think there were any other matters dealt with except the general question of trade returns. Phrases were used that August was an abnormal month and that it showed a trade balance favourable to us. Of course you can look at it from the other point of view, and say that other months were abnormal because they showed that the trade balance was unfavourable. I do not want to make a verbal point on that, but I want to stress this, that there are certain months in which it can be almost with certainty predicted that the trade balance will be less favourable than other months. The early portion of the year will be unfavourable——

Major COOPER

Might I interrupt to ask is the Minister referring to the trade balance with Great Britain or with the world?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Only with Great Britain. It could be said with a certain amount of certainty that the first quarter of the year would be less favourable from our point of view. The second quarter would be pretty much the same. The return will become more favourable in the third quarter and still more favourable in the fourth. The latter portion of the year will be more favourable from our point of view than the first portion. That is one of the many matters in which expert assistance in the way of statisticians is required so that these things will be looked into and that we will not have any judgments based on superficial examination of what they reveal.

There are other very big questions that enter into the whole discussion. Deputy Cooper made reference to-day to the question of dividends and certain figures have been quoted. The Minister for Finance was quoted as being responsible for the statement that £8,000,000 would be the likely figure that comes in in dividends. Against that there must be set off certain other things and it is very doubtful if the net profit from dividends coming in, that is, setting the gross sum against certain other things that go out, would come within two millions of the eight millions quoted.

It is nearer five millions. That is the estimate at the moment. Again the remark was made, with which I agree, that it is impossible to deal with funds month by month. You have to complete the year and you have to get the figures examined, and you have to get further information about banking returns and credit, before this question can be tackled in a proper way. It is beyond doubt, therefore—the conclusion may be very mournful—that just at the moment what is described as my Budget is not favourable and is not balanced, but that any Governmental action is going of itself to right that is a statement with which I cannot agree. Pressure may have to be brought on certain people and indications given to certain institutions, but these could be only indications, and at the moment there can be no compulsion. Banks may be disposed to give facilities too easily for certain purposes, and if the banks were to take these trade returns into account and operate accordingly, it might be better for the country but it might be worse for certain individuals of whom Deputy Davin gave an example yesterday, and there might be conclusions drawn. Deputy Davin said that it was a deliberate attempt to crush out certain people in answer to the protection policy. That is only so much verbiage. Banking institutions might have certain circumstances put before them, and they might be asked to modify their banking policy accordingly. It is for the banks to do this, but we are not in a position to present to them such clear-cut and clearly established cases that they would be likely to modify their actions. I thought it right to refer to this question of the trade balance as it is a most important item, but we are not in a position at present to consider it. We are, however, taking such steps that shortly it will be possible to deal with problems of this kind, and we will have a centralised staff to deal with facts and figures on which a proper consideration of questions of this kind depend.

Major COOPER

Would the Minister consider publishing a report on this question, say next February or March?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That is a question that can be considered, but the difficulty is that when a Minister says a thing will be considered, the conclusion is drawn that the thing will be done. If we take it with all the hypotheses which the Deputy puts around it, and if we had information that would be useful—it must be understood that nothing is given in the way of promise —we might be in a position to deal with the matter by next February. Returns of this sort, however, would take a considerable time to adjust and to draw proper conclusions from them.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

There is only one question which I was going to ask the Minister. The Minister is aware that there is a gap in the continuity of statistics. They run up to 1921 or 1922. In regard to trade figures they were annual and not monthly as we now receive them. There is a gap, so that if anyone is looking for a continuity of years to acquire the figures for the whole period these figures are not available for certain years. These figures are not available for the period in which the British Government was out and in which our own Government was not fully in its stride. I ask the Minister if there is any method by which that gap can be made good. If it can be done this is the time to do it, for in ten years' time these figures may be valuable, but if the continuity be broken the facts would not be available.

Mr. CORISH

I was going to ask the Minister whether he is yet in a position to say whether there is dumping going on. The Minister gave an undertaking at a recent conference that he would endeavour to find out. These works to which I refer have practically closed down. I would ask him to interest himself and find out what is the reason of the unemployment of sixty workers. Small though that number may appear, it is a large number for this district. Yesterday I mentioned the fact that there had been a great decrease in the number of employees in agricultural firms in Wexford and the Minister said that it must have happened within the last few days. As a matter of fact, it occurred a few months ago. If there is such a decrease in the number of people employed in that industry, and if the figures are available, does not the Minister think that the people in his Department should investigate the reason of that? Personally I believe that there is something at the back of it other than the slackness of trade. The Minister should endeavour to find out the real reason for it. During the debate on this estimate before the Recess I asked the Minister to interest himself in getting the lifeboat put back on the Fethard station, and I would like to know if he has done anything in that respect.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

The Minister has anticipated me in regard to several of the questions which I intended to bring forward, but there are a few matters which I would like to bring to his attention. In regard to the figures or statistics, I think that several alterations in classification should be made. I find that the agricultural products are so classified that it is not possible easily to distinguish the total exports of agricultural products. They are mixed up with other things which, strictly speaking, are not agricultural products. We have such things as beer, spirits, and fish included in that classification. I think it would be very helpful if we could possibly change that classification and have sub-classification which would place agricultural products in a category by themselves. The Minister also anticipated me with regard to foreign trade and our representatives abroad. I have been making enquiries into that matter, and I am very pleased to know that the Ministry is taking steps to see that our foreign representatives are in future to interest themselves in our trade rather than in our political interests. It is my opinion, which I have formed after some inquiry, that our representatives abroad are not interesting themselves as much as they should in the possible expansion of our trade. I do not blame our representatives. I think their attention has been turned too much to social and political matters. I think it would be very desirable that the attention of these men should be diverted to making enquiries with a view to finding openings abroad for our trade, particularly for our agricultural products.

When I was abroad this year I made enquiries and I found that there were certain articles of agricultural products in demand which could be sold in foreign countries such as bacon and other produce. The men, however, whom we have abroad have not time at their disposal to make enquiries and to get in touch with people who would probably buy these articles. The Minister knows that by far the greater proportion of our exports go to England. Where £29,894,961 worth of exports go to England, only £518,023 go to foreign countries. I am convinced that England is and must remain our main market. That, however, is no reason why we should not open up alternative markets, and I believe there are such markets if we could find them. We cannot, however, find them if the attention of our representatives abroad is devoted to purely political and social matters.

With regard to the adverse balance I recognise that it is a very unfortunate state of affairs, but I suggest that there are reasons which the Minister might consider as being the causes of it. One reason is the excessive cost of Government administration. You have thirty-six millions paid each year to people doing Government work. That is really to a certain extent non-productive money. Much of that money could be used for buying things, perhaps some luxuries, in the foreign market. As it does not represent export of manufactured goods and as it often represents borrowing and the payment of taxes and capital withdrawn from the banks it may be by means of that kind of excessive Government expenditure that this adverse trade balance is maintained. It seems to me that we are paying out of capital and that we must eventually export gold or value of some kind. If it does not mean that, it must mean that foreigners must invest the adverse trade balance in our business. With regard to electricity, I would like to call the Minister's attention to the necessity of having an agricultural outlook. From my conversations with the Minister I believe that he has this outlook, but I would like to emphasise the fact that if a comprehensive scheme of electricity is to be undertaken its possibilities in regard to agriculture should not be overlooked.

In any scheme of laying cables and in adopting an electricity scheme generally, its use in regard to agriculture and on farms is very essential. Such a thing is very common in certain countries. In Canada, close to Niagara, great use made of electricity by farmers, and we find farming machinery worked there and their houses lit by electricity. Although I am not very hopeful as to the extent to which it would be used in Ireland it would be used to a certain extent and its use would be gradually extended. That side of the question should not be overlooked, and eventually the use of electricity may be found to be more important in agricultural areas than in urban centres. I notice that the Minister says that the Ministry of Finance is anxious for economies. It seems to me that if the Ministry and the Government are to economies they must face facts and realise that they are paying enormous salaries. The amount of salaries under this Vote forms a very large proportion of the total Vote. I think it amounts almost to a half. We find that the Minister's Secretary is paid £1,500, presumably with bonus.

The higher salaries vary from £700 to £1,200, and the Minister will probably say that they are good men—and I am sure they are—and that good men are only obtained by giving good salaries. I would remind the Minister that this is a poor country and that if economies are to be enforced they are not to be enforced at the expense of the manual worker or the poorly-paid official. A beginning must be made at the top. I think the Minister will find that reductions must be made and that the time to make them is before they are forced to do so. Another matter which strikes me is the L (1) grant, in regard to the International Labour Organisation. The amount given there is £3,453. I do not know if the Minister has any option in regard to that, but it seems to me that that is a very large amount for Ireland to have to pay in respect of the upkeep of the International Labour Office. As to the usefulness of the International Labour Office, I am not prepared to express an opinion. It may be very useful. I had the honour of hearing Monsieur Thomas defending his budget with great vigour and energy, and I think he is going to insist on getting the full amount. Perhaps it would be possible to get Ireland to pay its proper quota, as we probably pay more than we should in proportion to the amount of wealth in the country. Now, in regard to unemployment, I suggest that the last word has not yet been said in regard to the things that the Ministry might do. The Minister says that it is not their duty to find work for the unemployed. I think that that statement should be qualified, and that there are times when it may be their duty to find work and where the finding of work might perhaps be a saving or at least would not be a loss, especially where there was definite reproductive work for the country. I know places in my county where drainage works on a small scale are essential, and in the towns adjoining these places there are thousands of men constantly drawing out-of-work payment. I think that some effort should be made to bring the men and the work together and make it possible for these men to get at this work. I think it is a fact that men are becoming adepts at drawing the dole and are making a profession of it, and the bad effects will be cumulative. The Minister should consider the advisability, when the time comes for drainage work, of giving transport facilities to enable them to do this work.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Deputy Figgis raised the question of continuity of statistics. I welcome his question on that, because I should have said earlier that the figures on which he depended in earlier years are not recognised as very dependable, and I would not accept any comparisons on the basis of those as to what is happening now. He spoke of the continuity over the broken period as a matter for Departmental consideration. I will not allow any attempt to make up those broken periods to interfere with the statistical work in the future. If it can be done without any great hindrance to the people engaged in statistical work it will be done, but it will not if it interferes with their efforts. Deputy Corish had two questions with regard to the Drinagh Cement Works, and he asked if it were a fact that dumping had been established. He knows himself that is a difficult question to determine, because the definition of what constitutes dumping is a difficult thing to arrive at. I am not clear that I have had sufficient information to be able to make, even with certain limitations, a statement as to whether or not dumping was established. The one thing established was that cement could be brought in here much cheaper than it could be supplied from the Drinagh Cement Works, and the question was this, was there anything going to be done to tend to increase the cost of housing in this country? That was the big point of policy that had to be considered. Certain efforts were made to keep the Drinagh Cement Works going for a certain period. I will not boast of the efforts made because severe criticism might come from another side, but the Drinagh Cement Works, unfortunately, is now closed down. You had to set off that big difficulty, the keeping in employment of these 60 men against a possible rise in the cost of building houses in the country which was not to be thought of at the time, and cannot be thought of yet.

Mr. CORISH

Was it due to the cost of transport?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The cost of transport was one item in the matter and on that we got certain facilities for the Cement Works. They were to have made an effort to get better facilities themselves and that was the point.

Mr. CORISH

Has the Minister endeavoured to find out what was the reason? Surely that is his function.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

What reason?

Mr. CORISH

Why cement was able to come in more cheaply.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Because the cost of production in Belgium and France was so much less. I am kept pretty well informed of things ordinarily, but when suggestions are thrown out to me that there is something more than a lack of trade, something sinister about the whole thing, I cannot have inquiries made on vague statements. If there is anything put to me on which there might be proper cause for an inspector to make proper inquiries I will have inquiries made and an inspector will be allocated for the duty. The Deputy raised one other matter, the question of getting the lifeboat service again established at Fethard. The Deputy raised this when the matter was previously under consideration. I did take up the matter with the Life Boat Association, and their reply, as far as I remember, was that they had taken away the Fethard boat because they had established two other stations close at hand. The cost was prohibitive to fit these with motor boats. The Fethard station had been left in a derelict way, but they were now in a position to assure me that about December and January there would be a motor boat somewhere near Fethard to give all the facilities that Fethard had previously given. That was the solution of their difficulty.

Mr. CORISH

There is a motor lifeboat at Dunmore, and at the port three miles outside Wexford. Notwithstanding that these are motor boats, 30 hours elapsed before the unfortunate man saved from the Lismore was landed, whereas if the old lifeboat station had been left at Fethard that boat could have got out immediately.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I am not clear whether the motor boat service the Deputy refers to is what I am referring to. I was given to understand this was in addition to the provision made.

Mr. CORISH

Could the Minister find out?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I have not the details here now, but I can tell the Deputy on Monday. We have no control over these people. It is simply putting up a case that humanitarian motives might prompt them to put a boat there.

MAJOR COOPER

Will the Minister consider the suggestion of having telephones linked up with lifeboats? The delay is largely due to lack of communication. If telephones were available it would make an improvement in the service.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I am not aware that there is any failure to join up by telephone the main coast watchers. In most cases that is done, I think, but I can have an inquiry.

MAJOR COOPER

There are places where they are used. I know one coast-guard station where there is now no telephone within four or five miles. There used to be under the British regime.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I think there is still. I am not now referring to a separate point raised by the Deputy. There might not be coast-watchers where there used to be stations. Whatever coast-watch stations there are, are, I think, linked up by telephone. I can make inquiries about it. Deputy Heffernan referred to his own point. The matter of classification in statistics could be considered, but I doubt if any great good could come from it because the classification is founded on the method adopted by our main customers, and there is great ease in continuing that classification. Disturbance caused by any change now would have to be set off against possible advantages to be derived from it. I am not sure that there is any great advantage to be gained from what the Deputy suggested.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Let the classification stand as it is at present but introduce a sub classification. I can quite understand the difficulty with regard to previous comparisons and all that.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The whole question is a matter to be gone into by this committee that I am getting to advise on the statistics problem because whatever classification is adopted will, incidentally, be one of the matters to be discussed and advised upon by those people. The Deputy referred to our representatives abroad. I do not know whether he was in the House while I was indicating what I proposed to do with those representatives. I agree with him that there is far too much being put on the shoulders of those individuals who are located, one in France, one in Brussels, and a few somewhere else, to look after our trade interests. I was very pleased to hear from Deputy Heffernan that he agreed there should be more help given to those representatives abroad, and that the staff should be increased. I remember when he was indulging himself in an orgy of criticism on staffs, he rather led the House to believe that he had the Farmers' Party at his back in objecting to the expenses of those people.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I think the Minister, as usual, is rather twisting the argument. I did not say or I did not mean to convey that. What I did say was that the time and the attention of these officials are being taken up too much with political and social matters, when almost their whole attention should be devoted to trade matters. If that were so, the Farmers' Party would not object to reasonable help, but the amount would have to be in proportion to the work done.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I am glad to see now—I do not say it is a mere recantation—that he agrees there should be some provision with regard to these Ministers abroad.

Mr. HEWAT

Will the Minister not make allowance for foreign travel?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I do not want to insist too strongly on that, because the Deputy would have immediately the retort on myself. The question of these representatives and any extra provision made, will have, of course, to depend on the extra work got out of them, and on the value to the State that their services will represent. With regard to three other matters raised by the Deputy, he spoke of the Shannon or some other water-power scheme in the hope that when the cables came to be laid that the network would be in such a way that the agricultural community could derive benefit from the supply of power, and tap these mains. Again, I am not going into the details of the scheme, but any of the water-power schemes to provide power for the Free State, not to provide power for Dublin alone, include necessarily the provision of this network of cables right over the country. Where such cables pass along there may be opportunities for some agricultural communities where they like, to get power from them. In that connection I would just like to say that I did see an article recently which stated that in Germany, where the provision of power is very large, and the network covers the entire country, the farming community found that the amortisation costs and general overhead costs rendered it uneconomic for them to avail themselves of the power, and that Germany had in the last year made tremendous use of power from movable windmills—that the farming community had in Germany availed to a great extent of power derived from that source. I do not say the scheme here is going to be the same as the German scheme has been. If one scheme goes through, there will be a larger station than there is in Germany, so that the overhead charges will not be so much, and the power may be so cheap that farmers will be able to use it. But that is all in the future.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

On a point of explanation, I would like to say that what happened in Germany was that there was a great number of small companies and therefore the overhead costs must be greater than they will be here.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy should not have waited to tell us all that at this stage. We will go on for ever at this rate.

Major COOPER

Does the Minister know that it is very hard for farmers to raise the wind?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I would just like to say—

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

You must let the Minister conclude.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Two other points the Deputy raised were unemployment and certain criticisms in regard to the details of the Vote. He took up again this phrase—that it is no function of the Government to provide employment. I have explained that ad nauseam and what I meant by it. I stated here to-day and in last night's debate that the Government had come in at certain points. And not only that, but it intended to come in again on the question of relief schemes. I do not know if the Deputy knows that some of these relief schemes took the form of drainage. The actual point was one I had by anticipation met.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Not in my constituency.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I am not going to say anything with regard to the Government providing employment. Because Deputy Heffernan's constituents are harassing him I am not going to provide him with substance for the next election. With regard to the question of salaries, that is a point on which most people can gain a reputation for being severe critics—in wanting to cut them down and to effect economies. The salaries given here should be compared with the salaries elsewhere, and the position as found here should be borne in mind. There are certain Treaty obligations with regard to Civil Servants that bear very heavily upon us, but even if there were no Treaty obligations I would not be a party to cutting down salaries of the main men in charge of a department.

There are very few people who have any conception of the work that falls on civil servants of a directorial type, and it is a most fatuous type of economy to suggest that anything should be done to cut down the salaries there. That is not the point at all. That is one of the explanations why this country is as it is, that people with a tremendous amount of responsibility are not given a salary commensurate with the responsibility laid upon them. I think that there are a great number of industrial concerns which might have benefited by the payment of big salaries to managers and that is really the position a Director in the post of a Civil Service Department holds. I think somebody else, not Deputy Heffernan, did refer to the amount of expenditure on the Statistics Department. I think it was Deputy Johnson. Somebody did raise the question, and I have just this comment to make on it finally, that 80 per cent. of the expenditure in connection with the Statistics Department is incurred in connection with the publication before me. I do not think that is a thing I can say and not expect to have objections raised upon it. I think very little additional would enable the Department to do that. I hope to get that addition and get those things published.

Mr. JOHNSON

Is the Minister under the impression that I raised any objection to these expenses?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Oh, no.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Like Don Quixote, I am going to tilt at the Minister's windmill. I want to make clear to the Minister——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy cannot make another speech.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I have only spoken once, and we are in Committee.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Only spoken once?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

That is all.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

My mathematics must be all wrong. The Deputy is under the impression that this is an estimate discussion in Committee.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I thought so.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Before I put the motion I would like to say I think this particular kind of procedure is wholly wrong. Sufficient time was not given for the discussion of the estimate; this discussion was promised and this motion was put down in terms, the vagueness of which I admire. The Minister did not know what anybody wanted to discuss, and nobody had down a motion to state definitely what he wanted to discuss, with the result that we had a discussion to-day which was not an Estimate discussion, and which was not a vote of censure on the Minister, and could not be properly described at all. I hope that the Estimates will be taken next year in time to avoid anything of the kind occurring again. It would be much preferable to have a simple vote of censure on the Minister, on which the limitation could be seen, and on which the Chair could rule in some way. We have had advocacy of certain legislation and of existing statutes and examples of the Minister's power of debate.

Motion put and agreed to.