Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 7 Nov 1924

Vol. 9 No. 11

PRIVATE BUSINESS. - OLD AGE PENSIONS ADMINISTRATION.

Motion by Deputy Patrick McKenna:

"That a Special Committee, consisting of nine Deputies, to be nominated by the Sessional Committee of Selection, be appointed to enquire into the system under which the Old Age Pensions Act, 1924, is being administered in the Saorstát; that the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records, and that the quorum of the Committee be five."—(Debate resumed.)

Mr. BAXTER

When the discussion on this was adjourned I was putting a question to the Minister for Finance as to whether it was his intention, or if it was his desire, that a Commission, or Committee of the Dáil, might be set up to consider the present system under which the Old Age Pensions Act is administered. What I am not clear about is, if he were prepared to concede that a Committee ought to or might be set up, does he consider that a Committee can really discuss this present system, or suggest another, without taking into account the present administration? After all, it seems to me that the system under which the Act is at present administered and the administration itself are inseparable; I cannot see how one can be considered or discussed apart from the other. I cannot see how that Committee could hope to do anything at all without first taking into account the present administration, and in the light of the administration of the present system suggest a new system, if, as we know will be the case, the system is not found satisfactory—whether it is the administration or the system that the administration has sprung from. I am not clear on that, and I want to be. I do want to say this, that as regards the administration at present, down the country anyhow, it is regarded as being very far from satisfactory indeed. Since I came into the Dáil, and very recently, I have had very many complaints from pension committees in my county, and the feeling of some of these committees is that really they might as well not be in existence at all. I admit that from what I know they can do very little good. In a case where it is very obvious that the claimant is entitled to the pension they can pass it, and the pension is granted; but I believe it would be granted if the committee were not in existence at all, simply because there would be no arguments against it. But in a case where there is any question, no matter what the decision of the Committee may be, no matter what the local feeling may be as to the claimant being entitled to the pension, that does not seem to weigh with the administration. I am merely voicing a very general opinion when I say that the feeling is that the committee has absolutely no power, and very little attention is paid to their decisions at all.

I do not know where the fault lies. I have had experience of claims passed by the Committee, passed again by the Committee after they were appealed against, but the decisions of the Committee did not weigh with the administration. I know that in cases there may not be, from the point of view of the administration, sufficient evidence to go on, but the administration seems never to be satisfied to accept local decisions, founded on local knowledge. If the Minister is prepared to say that a Committee of the Dáil should be set up to consider the system, I think he might as well recognise that no good can come from the setting up of such a Committee unless the work of the present administration will be under review by it. Unless he is prepared to concede that, it seems to me that Deputy McKenna's motion will not have achieved the object for which it was put down.

Mr. WHITE

I would desire to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that the local pensions officers are both rigorous and unreasonable in their views. For instance, take the case that Deputy A. Byrne quoted of a bed provided for an old person by a relative in the city of Dublin, and valued at 3/- a week. I want to bring under the notice of the Minister another glaring injustice in the valuation of the means of the claimants in rural districts, like that from which I come, and that is the valuation of a stack of turf. That is not provided by the pensioner; everybody knows that he or she is physically debarred from having anything to do with the cutting or handling of turf. This turf is cut, handled and worked, and put on the street, or wherever the turf stack is placed, by the son or daughter or by the grand-children of the pensioner. I contend that it is most unreasonable for local pension officers to take into consideration the value of that stack of turf. It is just as unreasonable on the one side as the case that Deputy A. Byrne quoted of the bed, valued at 3/- a week, that was given by a daughter-in-law, or some other outside relative.

Another matter that I desire to draw the attention of the Minister to, and to emphasise is that some machinery should be set up by which the ages of these old people can be established, some reasonable machinery. I know of several cases in my own area where declarations and affidavits—declarations made before Peace Commissioners and affidavits made before Commissioners of Oaths—were sent on by the claimants to the Pension Committees. They were sent on from the Pension Committee to the Department in Dublin and they were rejected. A large number of these unfortunate people who are applying for the pension are helpless and illiterate people, and some proper consideration should be shown to them in the establishment of their ages. I know, and we all know perfectly well that the Department is working at a great disadvantage in the way of being able to obtain proper verification since the records were destroyed in the Four Courts, but at the same time the Minister and his Department and the local pension officer should not look upon all the unfortunate poor people seeking pensions as absolute rogues. They are not being told that in actual words, but that statement is practically thrown in their teeth, and the people who sign affidavits are subjected to what I consider an insult. I know, and the Minister should know as well, that a large number of these humble people in the country do not go to make declarations before Commissioners of Oaths without first giving due consideration to it. I think myself that is a matter that the Minister should put before his Department, that some reasonable and fair machinery or some reasonable test or standard should be set up for the proving of the ages of these people who are applicants for old age pensions.

I would also say that the pension officers and the various rural councils should not be so unreasonable and so rigorous as they are in the administration of the Act. They should place more reliance on the statements of old age pension committees, because these committees are composed largely of respectable and responsible persons in the various districts, and their views and statements should be taken seriously into account in the administration of the Act. I think that the Minister would be acting properly by setting up a commission to inquire into the working and details of the Act.

Mr. DALY

If I interpret correctly the promise which the Minister for Finance made yesterday it means a review or complete change in the methods of granting old age pensions. The appointment of a committee of inquiry would in great measure rectify matters which we know are wrong. Some people cannot ascertain their ages because the registers in the chapels were either destroyed or lost, and many people do not know where they were born, but their appearance would lead anybody to believe that they are over seventy years of age. There should be discretion vested in the pension officers and in the pension committees, which Deputy White described as being composed of very honest people. I do not know if he is right there. After all, I am satisfied with the promise and with the sympathetic manner in which the Minister for Finance has agreed to set up a committee to review the administration of the Act.

Mr. SHAW

I also support the setting up of this Commission because, as one who has administered the Act in many localities and attended committees at which claims have been considered, I am aware that there can be a very great improvement in the administration of the Act. Where public boards of various kinds have to meet and where committees are appointed to deal with these pensions, it is very often found that the number of people who attend at these meetings is very limited. Personally, I have very often had to adjudicate on cases all over Co. Westmeath with, perhaps, the assistance of only one person. I know that very undue hardship is inflicted on a large number of persons owing to various circumstances. Returns were made by the Excise Officers as to the means of the applicants and these persons were either struck off the list altogether or their pensions were considerably reduced. Returns came before me recently in which the applicants were represented to have an acre of hay, an acre of potatoes, and a certain quantity of turf, and these were put down at a certain value. That was certainly their value then, but what is their value now? They are practically valueless. These persons have existed during the winter on feeding pigs from the small quantity of produce they have been able to produce and their position is very serious. My reason for giving these illustrations is to try to get back pensions for these people if they have to make an appeal. That will take a considerable time. The pension officers have to inspect the places, the committees have to meet, the cases come before the Department in Dublin, and, whether the decisions are favourable or unfavourable to the applicants, a period of several months must elapse. I consider that this Commission will do a considerable amount of good. Even though it might not be able to change the administration of the Act at present, I believe it would be able to recommend and certainly would recommend means by which a great amount of the present suffering would be relieved.

Mr. HEWAT

I am struck with what Deputy White has said in regard to cases which he quoted, but it occurs to me to ask what is the reason very often of this genuine hardship? What does it result from? Is it the result of attempts, systematically made, to get for individuals in cases of this kind, or in other cases, advantages to which people are not entitled? If the Old Age Pension Act had been administered honestly, so that everybody who got a pension was a genuine case, it would make it very simple to administer the Act now, and the greater latitude which Deputy White asked for could easily be given. Why, however, is it impossible to give it in cases of the kind mentioned? The reason is that the local committees and local individuals, as Deputy Shaw pointed out, have a bias in favour of getting something out of the Central Fund that is not paid for locally; in other words, we are all inclined to be good fellows. People should understand and learn in the country that for every claim made unjustly, other people, who have just claims, will have to suffer by having to undergo a stricter scrutiny when their claims are going through.

Mr. LYONS

I think that the Minister for Finance has met this motion fairly well, when on Wednesday last he agreed to appoint a Committee of Deputies with a number of outsiders. I am sure that when that Committee gets working it will be able to adjust a number of existing grievances. I disagree, however, with Deputy Hewat's statement regarding local committees. These committees fully recognise that portion of every pension that is granted must be borne by people in the locality. Every pension, of course, comes out of the Central Fund, but it is really paid locally by means of high rates and taxes. I have had experience for the last four or five years of local committees. On one of them was a parish priest, a parson of the Church of Ireland, and several other respectable persons, but frequently the recommendations of that Committee were turned down. I do not blame the Department or the Minister for that, but I do blame the local officer. He is the man who sends forward his file with certain information, but he does not go to the district and find out that information for himself. He depends on what other people tell him.

In some cases applicants had, say, ten hens or a goat, and these were taken into account and valued at so much. In my opinion these things should not be taken into consideration in cases where the persons are over 70 years. An old man may be over 70 years and have sufficient strength to enable him to continue at manual labour, or otherwise to earn a few shillings a week, and these few shillings are counted as income, but if he were an invalid he would be entitled to a pension and get it. I think that is not fair.

In my opinion the pension should be given to all who reach the age of 70 years. If necessary one penny per week could be levied so as to enable pensions to be given to all at the age of 70, or even 65. The Minister for Finance said several schemes had been put before him. One was to strike a rate of so much in the £ with a view to providing pensions. I am sure the local authorities that passed resolutions condemning the action of the Government in regard to old age pensions would have no objection to levy a rate to relieve the distress of the old and infirm. If meetings of public bodies are held on this matter I am sure the old age pensioners will benefit considerably. Deputy McKenna's motion is a few months too late. If it had come earlier the people might not have to suffer so much. I am sure every Deputy will quite agree that the pension scheme is carried out in a most ridiculous manner. The local committees are selected by the county councils, and surely they would not select people who would vote to give pensions to their own friends and relatives for the purpose of making paupers of them. The suggestion is made that they make awards without making inquiries.

Mr. HEWAT

I did not make that as a general charge.

Mr. LYONS

Well, not directly but indirectly. The local people know more about the applicant for a pension, who resides in their locality, than the pension officer who may reside 30 miles away, and more than the people in the offices in Dublin. In the majority of cases when the claims come up they are refused. In the cases of blind persons, a shilling a week has been taken from them, and in some cases three or four shillings a week. That is a matter that should be inquired into. I agree that the Minister has met the purpose Deputy McKenna had in view in bringing forward his motion.

MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

May I give a word of explanation to Deputy Baxter? Only the system can be considered, that is; the defects and faults which have been revealed in the working of the system, and the Commission will have full power and it will be its duty when faults and defects are apparent, and injustice arises from the working of the present system, to suggest, if they can, a better system under which these will not occur. When I said that the Commission would not consider the question of administration, I meant that the Commission cannot get after officials for the way that they perform their duties. The question of dealing with the officials must be left to the Minister in charge of the Department. He ought to see that they do their duty right, and if the Dáil thinks that the Minister is not taking the proper steps to get the officials to do their duty, it can get rid of that Minister, but the officials should look to the Minister who is responsible for their Department. That is what I meant when I said that the administration of the system should not go to the Commission.

Mr. WOLFE

I should like to say a few words in support of the suggested Commission. I was connected with the administration of Old Age Pensions in my own county from the time the scheme came into operation, and I had the opportunity of seeing how it worked for a great many years. There has been a great deal of inconsistency in the working of it. Sometimes claims are allowed to pass without examination, and at other times there is a great display of energy. To secure an Old Age Pension now is so frightfully difficult that it is almost a Herculean labour. For some time I have been trying to get the old age pension for deserving cases. After months I succeeded in getting it for one woman. It is impossible in some cases to establish proof of age owing to the burning of registers in a certain church. The burning of registers has been very common in Kildare. When I look back over 50 years, I am surprised that there are any registers in existence. In the days of my youth I have seen registers kicked about in the vestries of one or two churches. These poor people who are looking for pensions are now paying the penalty for the carelessness shown about these things. Another matter is, that the way in which means are calculated is most inconsistent, and not understandable. For these reasons I have great sympathy with the motion, and I hope something will be done to make the working of the Act more reasonable and intelligible.

Mr. HALL

I do not agree with the Minister that he should exclude from the Commission of Inquiry, investigation into the conduct of the officials working under the Department. I could give him at least one instance where the conduct of an official was anything but gentlemanly.

Mr. BLYTHE

You should do it at once, and give full particulars to me.

Mr. HALL

I will do that. Some few months ago I asked a question in the Dáil in relation to the disallowance of a pension to an old lady in Co. Meath. The reply to the question was that it was open to the old lady to make fresh application in the usual way. I communicated that information to her She went to see the pension officer in the district and he abused her, and, moreover, told her that he would see that she would not get the pension. This is a fact. If these officers are the same as the officers who investigated dependents' allowances in the case of Army men, I would not doubt that in a good many cases they have reported without visiting the claimants. I brought it to the notice of the responsible Minister and the matter was rectified by sending another man. I do not agree with the present system of valuation of small property. I do not believe that the Minister thinks that a pension of 9/- is sufficient to keep body and soul together. He must realise that something extra is required to make up the deficiency between the 9/- and the sum that would be sufficient to sustain life. If the statements made here by some Deputies that a goat and hens are valued and taken into account in computing the pension, I think it is very unjust and unreasonable.

I do not see what objection there could be to appointing a Committee of the Dáil to investigate the administration of the Old Age Pensions Act. I cannot understand why there should be any objections, unless there is some fear that something very unpleasant or uncomfortable might be disclosed. I think such a committee should be appointed to see if the present system can be remedied. I believe it would do a lot of good. It would place people who are entitled to the pension in the position of getting a pension, and on the other hand, get rid of some people who are receiving the pension and who are not entitled to it. I know there are farmers with a pretty good property drawing pensions, while poor people who have no means of livelihood are unable to get the pension because they cannot produce a birth certificate, or find someone in the locality who can vouch for their age. I know of one instance where a man of 74, who is able to give the date on which he was born, cannot get the pension. He has kept a record of things that happened at a particular period in his lifetime. A certain man in the locality has made an affidavit that he believes the man is 73. Despite that his appeal has been turned down, and there is no method at his disposal whereby he can acquire a pension.

I think this motion is a very reasonable one, and should be supported by every Deputy. If the motion has not been previously considered or decided upon by some parties in this Dáil I cannot see how any Deputy on the Government benches can vote against it on a division if he has not been here to listen to the arguments.

Mr. McKENNA

I came into the Dáil unsatisfied with the statement made by the Minister the other evening. I understood him to say that he would not allow in the terms of reference to this committee a review of the present administration of the Act, but from the explanation that he has given today I am quite satisfied to accept the proposal of the Minister.

I would like to say that as far as I can see the Local Government Department seems to be a mere puppet in the hands of the Ministry of Finance so far as the administration of this Act is concerned. During the whole of this debate I have not seen here the Minister for Local Government. As we are all aware, the Local Government Department is the ultimate court of appeal in all these cases. As regards pensions officers and officials of the Ministry, I would not like to interfere with the Minister responsible for these officials, but I must say from experience of the administration of the Act and information received from pensioners that some of these officers have been too extreme in their decisions. When this Act was passed I was connected with a movement along with a great Irishman—the late Professor Kettle. There was a discussion on one occasion as to how a pension officer should be described, and Professor Kettle said: "It would be a bit discourteous to call him a spy, but I think it would suit to call him an investigator, an objector, a discoverer of ambiguities, an apostle of economy—in a word, a devil's advocate." That has been the experience of a good many old age pensioners. I do not say that pension officers are as bad now as they were under the British administration.

Mr. WILSON

They are worse.

Mr. McKENNA

A lot of them were sent over from England and Scotland to administer this Act, and some of them would not know a sheep from a goat. They used to go out into the country, sit down with the old people, and inquire: "How many hens has Mary Anne Malone, and how many pigs has so-and-so?" That was the way they went about calculating means.

I wish to impress on the Minister that when preparing his Terms of Reference he should include a query as to what is income. I have read the Act carefully and there is no definition of what income is. I remember when this matter was before the British House of Commons the then Prime Minister and his colleagues told the Irish members of that time how the matter would be settled. They said that in the first instance the Pension Committee would consider it; then the Inland Revenue authorities; and finally the Local Government Board. The question of means is giving a lot of trouble to the Local Government Department, as is also the question of age.

I am very pleased that I have not to ask the Dáil to divide on this matter. I wish to assure them that I did not bring forward the motion, and my party did not advise me to bring it forward, as a means of gaining cheap popularity or trying to score a point against any other party. We brought it forward in order to clear the air and try to show to the people of the country that so far as the Dáil is concerned we are anxious under our National Government to be as generous as we possibly can, having regard to the finances of the country. I ask leave to withdraw the motion.

MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

I would like to say with reference to the criticism by the Deputy of the Minister for Local Government, that when this motion was brought forward the Minister had been here all day dealing with the Local Government Bill. Up to a year or so ago I was in that Ministry and therefore knew the two sides of the matter. I told the Minister that I would deal with the matter in the Dáil that evening.

Mr. McKENNA

So far as the Minister for Local Government is concerned, I quite understand that he had very laborious work in connection with that Bill. I did not mean anything that I have said as a censure on his Department, but I certainly think the Local Government Department should be given more power in this matter by the Ministry of Finance than has been the case in the past.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.