I beg to withdraw my amendment.
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - LIVE STOCK BREEDING BILL, 1924—COMMITTEE STAGE (RESUMED).
SECTION 10.
Amendment 19, by leave, withdrawn.
Question—"That Section 10 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 11.
(1) An inspector may inspect, examine, and mark, and any member of the Dublin Metropolitan Police or the Gárda Síochána may inspect and examine at all reasonable times any bull to which this Act applies or any bull which is reasonably believed by such inspector or member to be a bull to which this Act applies.
(2) Any inspector or any member of the Dublin Metropolitan Police or the Gárda Síochána may for the purpose of exercising all or any of the powers conferred on him by this section enter at all reasonable times any lands or premises on which any such bull as is mentioned in the foregoing section is for the time being kept or is reasonably believed by such inspector or member to be so kept.
(3) Every person who shall obstruct or impede an inspector or any member of the Dublin Metropolitan Police or the Gárda Síochána in the exercise of any of the powers conferred on him by this section shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding ten pounds.
I formally move this amendment standing in the name of Deputy Connor Hogan:
In sub-section (2), line 26, to delete all after the word "kept" to the end of the sub-section.
I am afraid if these words were not in the section that an action for trespass would lie against the Inspector who entered bona fide on the lands, on reliable information that a bull was suspected of being kept without being licensed there. If these words were withdrawn, they would have that effect.
What effect?
That the Inspector would be liable for an action for trespass. It would make the Inspector's position extremely difficult if these words were deleted. It is for that reason these words were inserted in the sub-section, and I am afraid they must stand.
Under these conditions, and as Deputy Connor Hogan is not here, I beg to ask the leave of the Dáil to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question—"That Section 11 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.
(1) Where the Minister refuses an application for a licence under this Act or revokes or suspends a licence granted under this Act, or is of opinion that a bull to which this Act applies is not suitable for breeding purposes the Minister may serve on the owner, reputed owner, or other person keeping or having possession of the bull the subject of such application, licence, or opinion a notice in the prescribed form requiring such person within the time (not being less than seven days) specified in such notice to do, at his own option, any one of the following things, that is to say—
(a) to take out a permit under this Act in respect of the bull, or
(b) to have the bull slaughtered, or
(c) to have the bull castrated.
(2) In the event of a notice served under the foregoing sub-section not being complied with within the time limited therein, the Minister may cause the bull the subject of the notice to be slaughtered or to be castrated at the expense of the owner of the bull, and for that purpose any persons authorised in that behalf by the Minister may enter any premises in which the bull may or may reasonably be believed to be.
(3) The cost of the slaughter or castration of a bull pursuant to this section shall be paid by the owner of the bull to the Minister on demand and may be recovered by the Minister from such owner as a civil debt.
(4) Any person who shall obstruct or impede the Minister or any person duly authorised by him in the exercise of any of the powers conferred by this section shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a penalty not exceeding ten pounds.
(5) The exercise by the Minister of the powers conferred on him by this section shall not relieve any person from any penalty which he may have incurred under any other section of this Act.
(6) Where the owner of a bull is not known, a notice under this section in relation to that bull may be addressed to "the owner of a bull" without naming him, and in any case a notice under this section may be served by delivering it to the person to whom it is addressed, or by delivering it to a person over sixteen years of age on the lands or premises on which the bull to which it relates is then kept, or by sending it by post to the person to whom it is addressed at his last known place of abode or the place at which the bull to which it relates was last known to be kept.
On behalf of Deputy Connor Hogan, I beg to move Amendment 21:—
To delete sub-section (6).
This section provides for the service of notices. It is a common form, and it is practically in every Act, such as the Public Health Act and other Acts under which notices have to be served. We must make provision for the service of notices, because notices must be served. We have adopted the common form that is recognised in similar Acts, such as the Public Health Act and others, as I have already indicated. I do not see anything in the special circumstances of this case to make that common form unsuitable.
Would it not be possible for the Minister to insert this sub-section in some other form? It seems to me that it would be rather ridiculous to address a communication to the owner of a bull when that owner is not known. That is just the point.
That particular contingency—the necessity for serving a notice on the owner of this, that or the other arises under practically every Act. The fact is that that contingency does arise, and we have no reason to think it will not arise in connection with the administration of this Act. In connection with other Acts that contingency has to be provided against. In any event, what harm is done by the serving of a notice? If a notice is served on a man and it reaches him as the owner, he has only to prove that he is not the owner. Take the case where there is some doubt. Suppose there is an unlicensed bull and nobody knows the owner. The owner of the land may deny that he owns the bull and he refuses to give any other information. The notice is served, and he has only to affirm that fact, and unless the Department of Agriculture can prove conclusively that he is the owner, he is all right. What harm is done?
In the circumstances, I will withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question—"That Section 12 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 13.
(1) There shall be established and maintained for the purposes of this Act a panel of referees consisting of such number of fit and proper persons as shall from time to time be found necessary for the purposes aforesaid.
(2) The members of the panel of referees shall be appointed by the Executive Council, and every such member shall hold office for five years from the date of his appointment and shall be eligible for re-appointment at the expiration of any such term of office.
(3) Every member of the panel of referees shall be paid such fees and expenses for every inspection and examination made by him in pursuance of this Act as the Minister shall, with the approval of the Minister for Finance, direct.
I beg to move the following amendment:—
In sub-section (1), line 16, to delete from the word "consisting," to the end of the sub-section and to substitute the words, "in each county of a number of fit and proper persons, drawn from farmers who are engaged in the dairying business in that county."
This is an amendment dealing with the Advisory Council. We are to discuss that matter again on the Report Stage. It has already been touched upon.
That is the re-drafting of Section 4. Will the Deputy leave the matter over until the section is re-drafted? It was arranged that Section 4 would be re-drafted and made into two sections.
I would like to go ahead with the amendment.
There is an arrangement made to deal with that matter.
I would undertake to discuss with the Deputy his point of view between this and the Report Stage. We will then be in a position to know whether we can agree or not.
Very well; I am quite agreeable.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question—"That Section 13 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 14.
(1) Where the Minister—
(a) refuses to grant a licence or permit under this Act, or
(b) refuses to transfer a licence or permit granted under this Act or to grant a new licence or permit in lieu of such transfer, or
(c) revokes or suspends a licence granted under this Act, or
(d) serves a notice under this Act requiring that either a permit be taken out in respect of a bull or the bull be slaughtered or castrated,
the owner or any person keeping or having possession of the bull to which the application, licence, permit, or notice relates shall be entitled on application in the prescribed manner and within the prescribed time and on payment of the prescribed fee not exceeding two pounds and two shillings, to have such bull inspected and examined by a referee.
(2) Upon receipt of an application under the foregoing sub-section the Minister shall cause the bull to which the application relates to be inspected and examined by a referee nominated by the Minister from the panel of referees, and such referee shall make a report in writing to the Minister of the result of his inspection and examination of the bull.
(3) The Minister shall thereupon consider the said report and shall either confirm, with or without modification, reverse, or cancel the refusal, revocation, suspension, or notice aforesaid.
(4) Where an application for inspection and examination of a bull is made under this section on account of the revocation or suspension of a licence or the service of a notice, such revocation, suspension, or notice shall be deemed to be withdrawn pending the decision of the Minister on the report of the referee, and if such revocation, suspension, or notice is confirmed, with or without modification, by the Minister under this section, the revocation or suspension as so confirmed shall take effect as on and from the date of such confirmation or the notice as so confirmed shall be deemed for the purposes of this Act to have been served on the date of such confirmation.
(5) When selecting a member of the panel of referees to inspect and examine a bull under this section, the Minister shall not nominate any member who has within one year previously been employed by the person making the application or by the Minister to inspect or examine the bull.
(6) Where the Minister reverses or cancels under this section any such refusal, revocation, suspension, or notice as aforesaid the fee paid on the application for the examination and inspection of the bull by a referee shall be returned to the person by whom the same was paid.
I beg to move the following amendment:
In sub-section (1), line 42, to delete the words "two pounds and two shillings" and substitute the words "ten shillings."
This amendment stands on a different footing to the other penalties that we endeavoured to reduce, because this is not a penalty in the accepted sense. This is a sum of two guineas that a farmer has to lodge if he wishes to appeal from the decision of the Inspector. Two guineas is a very considerable sum, and it will actually shut out an appeal to the panel as suggested in the Bill. Small farmers will be shut out. Under the Bill, if they gain the appeal they will get back the two guineas, but if they fail they will not have it refunded. I think a sum of ten shillings would be quite sufficient, and it would prevent the panel being overcrowded with appeals, because, although the Minister may not think so, farmers think quite a lot about ten shillings nowadays. You do not pick that sum up off the road. I can tell the Minister that a lot of milk could be taken to the creameries for ten shillings. Small farmers will not spend that amount unless they think they have a genuine grievance against the Inspector. Two guineas would knock out all the small farmers, and the whole functioning of the Act would be dependant on the Inspectors. I do not think it is advisable to have the feeling going out amongst the dairy farmers that the Minister will be shutting off all appeals by insisting on a lodgment of two guineas.
I want to support Deputy Hogan. Inasmuch as the Minister is considering the establishment of a panel of referees, and that it is likely the panel may be arranged in a way other than the Minister had at first intended, and in a way that would make an appeal more convenient and inexpensive than as at first anticipated, I think the Minister ought to see his way to reduce the amount specified in the Bill. There is considerable force in Deputy Hogan's argument. There are farmers who, if it is demanded of them that they must lodge a fee of two guineas, will consider whether they will or will not do so; they may, at the time, reluctantly accept the finding of the referee. Eventually it will have the effect that these men, if they think they are not being fairly or properly dealt with, will consider that they are not getting the public service they should get through a better administration of the Act. They ought to be facilitated as much as possible, and the fee ought not to be put beyond their powers. Possibly the Minister could stretch a point in this respect, and he should endeavour to meet what would be a general feeling in the country.
I suggest to the Minister that the fee indicated is a bit excessive in relation to the value of the bull. A fee of two guineas is excessive when you consider the rate that a half-bred bull is selling at.
What do you suggest?
I suggest the 10s. mentioned in the amendment. The value of many bulls will range from £12 10s. to £16 at the age of nine or ten months.
Do you mean a thoroughbred?
We are not talking of thoroughbreds; we are talking on a subject that we know something about. There are any amount of bulls in the country that will pass inspection without a pedigree.
Of course.
They can be sold in the neighbourhood of £15 and £20, or at least anything from £10 to £20. I am now asserting what is in the knowledge of men who actually know the business. To my mind, two guineas is out of proportion to the value of the bull. Certainly, it is out of proportion to the difference it would make as between a bullock and a bull.
I tried to make a bargain and I could not. I do not think that Deputy Baxter should take all the credit for discovering that the farmers do not get money by the wayside; he ought to give me a little.
We are only asking you to be reasonable.
They discovered that 10s. buys a great deal of milk these times. That is at a creamery, not in Dublin. We want to impose a fee that will make the appeal a reality. The expenses of the referees have to be paid by the State out of taxation, and it is not in the interest of the farmers or anybody else that there should be purely frivolous appeals, that every decision, good, bad, or indifferent should be appealed against. I am willing to admit that £2 2s. looks a little high, and I will make a fair offer of £1.
I hope the Farmers' Party will recognise that when getting this concession somebody else will have to pay the difference.
I do not think so.
Deputy Hewat can make his mind easy about that.
The previous section laid it down that referees shall be paid according to the work. Perhaps some of the farmers would do it for nothing.
I believe that the £1 will ensure that you will not have any frivolous appeals.
Is Deputy Hogan accepting that?
Yes, sir.
Amendment, as amended, put and agreed to.
I move:—
Before sub-section (4) to insert a new sub-section as follows:—
"Where an application for inspection and examination of a bull is made under this section on account of the refusal to grant or to transfer a licence or permit or to grant a new licence, no offence under this Act shall be deemed to be committed by the keeping or having possession of the bull to which the application relates pending the decision of the Minister on the report of the referee."
I think that explains itself.
We accept that.
Amendment put, and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 14, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
Remaining sections and Title put and agreed to.