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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Dec 1924

Vol. 9 No. 25

DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL (RESUMED).

I beg to move:—

In page 19, Section 36 (1), line 57, after the word "body" to insert the words "or if that body has been abolished then to a local body to which its powers and duties have been transferred.

This is merely to clear up a drafting point. After the abolition of a council there might be no officer of the rural council to give notice to. Probably it would be legally sufficient for the officer to give notice to the county council or the board of health, as the successor to the district council, but the amendment removes any possibility of doubt.

I accept the amendment.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I beg to move:—

In page 20, Section 37, to insert before sub-section (3) a new sub-section as follows:—

(2) A local body may, with the consent of the Minister, grant to a person in their employment other than an officer who either—

(a) has attained the age of sixty-five years and has at least twenty years' service, or

(b) becomes incapable of discharging the duties of his employment with efficiency by reason of permanent infirmity of mind or body or of old age, and has at least twenty years' service,

upon his resignation or the termination of his employment an annual allowance for his life not greater than two-thirds of his yearly remuneration and emoluments.

This amendment, although on the surface it might appear to be, is not quite the same as amendment 35. It provides that after 20 years' service, when an employee reaches the age of 65 years, he should be entitled to a pension or, in case of infirmity, after 20 years' service, even if he had not reached the age of 65 years. The amendment does not give the right to a pension on removal from employment unless the employee has at least twenty years' service. I do not think there is any necessity to argue the amendment. It would probably be only repeating some of the arguments put forward in the Committee Stage and on Amendment 35. Like Deputy Johnson, however, I would say to Deputies who voted against this principle on the Committee Stage because the term of three years was inserted, that this amendment will ensure that an employee must at least have 20 years' service. It is, I think, a fair thing to ask that an employee, after completing 20 years' service at the age of 65 years should not be flung out and left to charity or home help or, perhaps, forced to seek refuge in the county home, but that he should be provided for by the local authority in whose service he had spent the best part of his life. The amendment is a reasonable one and I hope the Minister will see his way to accept it.

I cannot accept the amendment for the same reasons I gave when replying to Deputy Johnson's amendment re-introducing the principle of pensioning employees. If that matter is to be considered, we will have to consider it in all its details. The only conditions under which such a proviso could be accepted would be on a contributory basis, and I am not prepared to introduce such a measure as that at present. I could not introduce it without going into the matter in very great detail and giving it very careful consideration.

The Minister has said that he could not accept this amendment or the previous amendment for the reasons given before. I have not heard the Minister give any reasons, except that he cannot agree that men of this class should get a pension at any time. That is what the Minister's objection comes to. He is not prepared to admit that men of the working class, no matter how faithful or how long their service, should get pensions under any consideration. The Minister talks of pensions on a contributory basis. I am prepared to meet the Minister on that if he will say that he is prepared to introduce a special Bill to give superannuation on a contributory basis to the employees of public bodies. But the Minister will not say that. There is no use in the Minister talking about pensions on a contributory basis if he is not prepared to introduce a Bill. Is the Minister prepared to introduce a Bill any time next year? If he is not prepared to say that he will, why bring in the question of contributory pensions at all? Why not face the thing honestly and say that he does not agree with the principle that these men should get a pension? That is really what the Minister's reason is, but he does not say it as bluntly as it should be said, because it would show his real mind on the matter.

There are some Deputies who were not present during the discussion on the previous amendment, and I am confident that they cannot have understood the argument for the amendment they were voting upon, or they would not have voted against the proposition. While Deputy Morrissey is, perhaps, justified in saying that there is no need to repeat the arguments because they were stated on the last occasion, it seems to me that the case is so clear, unless there is distinct prejudice against the wage earner as distinct from the salaried person, that the Deputies who were not present during the last discussion ought to be told exactly what they are asked to decide.

For the benefit of those Deputies let me re-state it very shortly. We have been engaged in this part of the Bill in dealing with superannuation for salaried officers. We have devoted a good deal of time to it; we have made certain extensions in regard to persons who have been employed on salaried rates and become pensionable officers. Here is a proposition which suggests that we should make it possible for a local authority, that employs a man continually for twenty years, to give that man a pension, at sixty-five years of age, not exceeding two-thirds of his annual income—always subject to the sanction of the Minister—and that in the case of a man who has served a long period, and become infirm in the service, a grant might be made to him.

I cannot imagine Deputies who may have gone to their constituents at one time or another and talked about fair conditions of employment—no distinction between class and class, recognition of the rights of labour, no discrimination because of birth, who have preached democratic doctrines—voting against a proposition to place the wage earner in a position, so far as pensions are concerned, somewhat approximating to that of the salary earner. The position of that wage earner is not going to be really analogous, but I want to place him somewhere in the same sphere with regard to pensionable possibilities. I ask Deputies if they clearly understand the position; that they are voting against placing the wage earner in a position somewhat approximating to that which the salary earner is already in, and which they have been voting to secure him in, in respect of pensions. Can they, with a clean conscience, and with a good understanding, vote against an amendment of this kind, and then repeat that they make no distinction, that they want to obliterate class interest and want to unite wage earner and salary earner, employer and employee, upper class and lower class, professional and artisan, in one happy brotherhood? They will vote for this amendment if they ever want to go before their constituents and repeat any phraseology of that kind. This is a test, and I ask Deputies who did not hear the discussion on the last occasion and who may have heard it now to justify themselves for future notification.

Deputy Johnson, of course, very astutely brings in a very big question, one that has really nothing to do with a pension scheme at all, except incidentally. I could not let the occasion pass without saying that the scope of this Bill is not broad enough to embrace this question. Deputy Johnson has raised the question of pensions for all, but the State has gone so far in admitting the principle, as to provide old age pensions for people beyond a certain age. It is proposed to broaden that out by giving local authorities power to pension their workmen. I think they have that power to a limited extent at present.

You are depriving them of it if you do not vote for this.

To place it on the local authority is, I think, going only part of the way. Let Deputy Johnson advocate the principle that every workman should be part and parcel of a contributory scheme, and provide for his old age, and I would support him, as far as possible. To bring it in as a side issue in a Bill like this, which has nothing to do with pensions except incidentally—

Fifteen sections of the Bill.

That is incidental, accepting a position that is already there. As far as I know the Local Government Bill does not extend the principle in any way. Deputies must recognise that a wholesale scheme for pensions for workmen and artisans should be on very broad lines indeed, and should cover workmen in all trades. It should provide pensions on a contributory basis for all workmen, apart from workmen in the employment of local authorities. Obviously the introduction of the principle into this Bill is far too big a question to deal with in this casual way.

It seems to me a difference is made between an ordinary employee and an officer. To those who advocate pensions other than contributory pensions that is a sound argument to put up against it. I see no grounds for those who advocate pensions on a noncontributory basis to make a distinction or discrimination between an officer and an ordinary employee. As far as I am concerned, I am opposed to pensions of all kinds except on a contributory basis. We are dealing with the Local Government Bill now, and unquestionably in the near future it will have to be scrapped, because the people who are called upon to pay these pensions are people who have no hope or prospect of pensions for themselves. They have no chance of avoiding the financial difficulties that such a scheme of pensions would impose upon them. We are legislating that these people shall carry the burden.

They are not able to carry the burden and will not be able to do so. There is no argument why a distinction should be made between the officer and the ordinary employee. A scheme of contributory pensions is absolutely necessary, and unless the Ministry proceed to enact such a scheme and do it early, they will have allowed the country to get into a position from which it will be difficult to emerge, and the economic results of which will be disastrous. They should take the matter in hands at an early date and formulate a scheme of contributory pensions. If they do not do so there is the possibility that it will be impossible for the community to carry this burden, and the result will be economic disaster.

I do not propose to discuss contributory or non-contributory pensions, as they hardly enter into the question of this amendment. I would point out that Deputy Johnson has overlooked one important fact; that is, when an officer takes on a job under a local authority he takes it on knowing that it is pensionable, and for that reason, in many cases, he takes a lower salary than he would be prepared to take in the ordinary way of commerce. As far as I know the workman or labourer, or whatever you may call him, gets whatever is the trades union wage and is in no worse position than people engaged in similar work. In the same way the officer definitely limits his ambition. If he went into business or started on his own he might achieve a far higher salary than would ever be his lot under a local authority. He deliberately chooses security, plays for safety and takes the position because it is pensionable. In that respect the two things are not comparable.

But while I dissent from Deputy Johnson's argument or some of the implications that issue from his argument, I am bound to say that I am, on the whole, in agreement with Deputy Morrissey's amendment on two very important points. One is that the local bodies "may"; that is to say, it is permissive, not mandatory. The second is with regard to the consent of the Minister. The Minister has power to overrule the local body in any case, so although it may be working as a machine for a great pension scheme still you would require a majority in every local body, and you would require a Labour Government in office to carry out this scheme. No doubt Deputy Morrissey hopes to live to see that day. I wonder will he ever see it? His amendment, as it stands, gives the local authority the power to pension servants who have done a long service.

It puts them in the same position that they were in up to two years ago.

It puts them in the same position as every private employer in the country. No employer has a general scheme for all his employees. Almost every employer has from time to time found some particular servant who has done good work or served him an extraordinary long time and he gives him a pension, or perhaps he keeps him on for two or three years longer than he otherwise would until he becomes eligible for the old age pension. I do not say that we can lay down a rule that in no circumstances should a local authority pension anybody. That seems unduly drastic but subject to what I shall hear from the Minister I am inclined to support Deputy Morrissey's amendment.

I do not think there is anything for me to say. I stated that this Bill does not attempt to bring in anybody who is not already pensionable. The superannuation clause is only intended to codify existing laws in regard to superannuation. As Deputy Hewat mentioned, if we were to consider the question of taking in new officers and new employees we would have to go into the matter very thoroughly. As it is, it is presumed that every officer who is pensionable at present has something deducted from his salary. The same provision would have to apply in regard to employees, and I did not consider that matter in preparing this Bill. It is a matter that would require a good deal of consideration, and for that reason I cannot accept an amendment introduced in this perfunctory way, at this stage of the Bill.

The Minister says he did not consider this matter before he introduced this Bill, but it is not too late now to correct his errors.

I have no intention of considering it.

The Minister has no intention of considering it. Well, as he is honest enough to admit that, will he admit also that he has no interest or belief in what he is talking about in regard to a contributory pension.

I will not go that far.

I said, when I stood up first, that I expected to hear some argument from the Minister as to why he could not accept this amendment. He has given none beyond the fact that he is personally opposed to it. As Deputy Bryan Cooper pointed out, if the amendment is carried, it will be optional for the local authority to give a pension.

We know what that optional means.

Supposing we get a local authority fair minded enough, and generous enough, to grant a pension, we can always guarantee a Minister in office who will refuse to give sanction to it. I am glad that Deputy Cooper agrees with the principle of the amendment, and I hope he will, and many other Deputies in the House will vote for it. Deputy Cooper spoke of a Labour Government, and asked me did I expect to live to see it. I said I do not. But I might live to see, though I do not expect to live very long another Government here before I am much older if this kind of legislation goes on. I think our friends have seen the writing on the wall.

That is outside the scope of the amendment.

It may be one of the practical consequences of it.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 20; Níl, 42.

  • Seán Buitléir.
  • John Conlan.
  • Bryan R. Cooper.
  • Seán de Faoite.
  • David Hall.
  • Séamus Mac Cosgair.
  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Risteárd Mac Fheórais.
  • Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
  • Patrick J. Mulvany.
  • Tomás de Nógla.
  • Ailfrid O Broin.
  • Tomás O Conaill.
  • Aodh O Cúlacháin.
  • Liam O Daimhin.
  • Donchadh S. O Guaire.
  • Seán O Laidhin.
  • Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
  • Tadhg P. O Murchadha.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).

Níl

  • Richard H. Beamish.
  • Earnan de Blaghd.
  • Seoirse de Bhulbh.
  • Proinsias Bulfin.
  • Séamus de Búrca.
  • John J. Cole.
  • Sir James Craig.
  • Maíghréad Ni Choileáin Bean Ui Dhrisceóil.
  • Patrick J. Egan.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • John Good.
  • John Hennigan.
  • William Hewat.
  • Connor Hogan.
  • Seosamh Mac Bhrighde.
  • Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
  • Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Patrick McKenna.
  • Risteárd Mac Liam.
  • Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
  • Liam Mac Aonghusa.
  • Pádraig S. Mag Ualghairg.
  • James Sproule Myles.
  • John T. Nolan.
  • Peadar O hAodha.
  • Micheál O hAonghusa.
  • Partholán O Conchubhair.
  • Séamus N. O Doláin. Michéal O Dubhghaill.
  • Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
  • Eamon O Dugaín.
  • Aindriú O Láimhín.
  • Séamus O Leadáin.
  • Fionán O Loingsigh.
  • Domhnall O Mocháin.
  • Séamus O Murchadha.
  • Seán M. O Súilleabháin.
  • Caoimhghín O hUighín.
  • Séan Priomhdhail.
  • Liam Thrift.
  • Conchubhair O Conghaile.
Amendment declared lost.

I move to report progress on this Bill.

Question put and agreed to.
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