Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 6 Mar 1925

Vol. 10 No. 9

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 13.—CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

Go ndeontar Suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar Ocht gCéad Púnt chun íochta an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníochta i rith na bliana dar críocht an 31adh Márta, 1925, mar gheall ar Thuarastail agus Costaisí Choimisiún na Stát-Sheirbhíse (Acht Rialuithe na Stát-Sheirbhíse, 1924).

That a Supplementary Sum not exceeding Eight Hundred Pounds be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment dur ing the year ending the 31st March, 1925, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Civil Service Commission (Civil Service Regulation Act, 1924).

When the original estimate was framed it was exceedingly difficult to estimate with any degree of accuracy the expenditure during the year 1924-25. There was a large amount of arrears of work to be made up in the examination of candidates for permanent employment. It was difficult, in view of the various circumstances relating to the fixing of scales and the organisation of the service, to determine what amount of that work it would be possible to do in a year. The excess is largely due to increased payments to examiners and superintendents. The anticipated savings are largely under sub-head (a), that is, "Salaries. Wages, and Allowances." The staff of the Commission has only been built up during the year. Various necessary posts on the staff have only recently been filled, and consequently the provision made for salaries, wages, and allowances will not be required to the extent indicated in the estimate. It might give some idea of the work of the Commission if I say that since the Act was passed there have been competitive examinations for practically every grade, or that such examinations have been arranged for practically every grade in the service, administrative, executive, clerical, shorthand, typewriting and writing assistants, as well as departmental grades. Twenty-five examinations have been held, at which 2,500 candidates sat.

Mr. JOHNSON

Could the Minister say how many got certificates?

Mr. BLYTHE

There were 910 vacancies. Outside examiners had to be employed, in all to the number of 90. Ninety-seven superintendents had to sit in the examination halls to conduct the examinations. After the examinations, the Commissioners had to investigate in regard to the age, health, and character of the successful candidates, and that has thrown an amount of work on the staff of the Commission. In addition to the competitive examinations the Commission has done a considerable amount of work through the operation of Selection Boards. In the case of a particular type of candidate, who could not be got by examination, candidates requiring qualifications which you would not find in the Civil Service, there have been Selection Boards. Independent people have been chosen to interview the candidates, examine their qualifications, and make recommendations.

In addition to the ordinary Civil Service work, the Commission has held nineteen examinations for the police forces, as a result of which 1,066 persons passed. I do not know whether they were appointments or whether some of them might not be cases where candidates had sat for promotion or something of that sort, but there was a large number of examinations of that kind. The result of these numerous examinations was that a sum considerably in excess of what was required had to be provided for examiners and superintendents. There is a scale of fees for superintendents. A superintendent is paid £1 5s. per day, and if he is away from home, for the purpose of superintending, he is paid 15s. a night. Then there are the fees for the examiners. Setting a paper of a University standard costs £5; for the Intermediate standard £3 and for the lower standard £2. There are graduated fees for the examination of the actual papers. These fees run from 9d. to 2/6 for examining the papers of the candidates.

Mr. GOOD

One outstanding feature which strikes one in connection with this estimate is the laxity there was in the preparation of the original estimate. It was pointed out in the Dáil many months ago that we ought to try to get more care in the preparation of estimates, and we were told then that in some of the Departments, owing to being rushed, there was not the care given to those estimates that should be given to them, and that more care would be given in future. Now, here is a case in point in which we have an increase of 100 per cent. in an estimate. We must remember after all that it might have been foreseen, and the possible number of candidates and so on might have been estimated for. That, however, has not been the case. If estimates are to be of any use at all they must be carefully prepared. One would like to press the necessity of having more attention paid by the different Departments to the estimates that come before us. If an estimate come up before the Dáil, and then if we find before the financial year is out that that estimate only deals with half the amount required, that doubles the work of the Dáil, and it shows a laxity in the State Departments that one does not like to see.

The PRESIDENT

It could always be arranged that no supplemental estimate would ever be required if we were to act generously in the original estimates. That would be exceedingly bad business. I do not know whether the Deputy has remembered, when examining the estimates, that the Free State Civil Service Commission was one of the institutions set up since the Free State came into existence. There was no experience to guide them. The administration of the Commission has been extending. I should say that the British Civil Service in its Department is not so extensive in its operations. The amount of the Supplementary Estimate is £800 on a total estimate of £4,200.

Mr. GOOD

The original estimate was £1,500. The revised estimate is £3,000.

The PRESIDENT

It might have been easily settled by being over generous in the original estimate. It is one of the disadvantages in dealing with estimates that the bigger they are the less likely there is to be any need for a supplementary estimate. There is the Ministry of Finance and one of the spheres of its activity is to endeavour to reduce every estimate, and as this was one in which there was not much experience, it was inevitable that something of that kind would occur. The total amount involved is £800, and having regard to the short life of this particular service, that amount is not sufficient to justify a wholesale indictment by the Deputy of the preparation of estimates.

Mr. GOOD

I think the President would agree if the estimates are to be considered here, they ought to be put forward as the considered views of the Departments. They should not be sent up to us here without careful consideration. These estimates take up a good deal of the time of the Dáil. I think it is only due to the Dáil that before the estimates come up here they should be carefully considered by the Departments and not prepared in a haphazard way. I do not want to deal unfairly with any Department, but this estimate shows an increase of 100 per cent. on the original estimate. It is not an unreasonable criticism that where an estimate is increased by 100 per cent. attention should be drawn to it. I hope we will have few complaints of that character in the future.

Mr. JOHNSON

I would like to ask a little more light upon the number of candidates, the number of vacancies, and the number of passes. I understand that there were 2,500 candidates examined, apart from the police, and that 910 passed. That would be less than three candidates per vacancy. I would like to know whether that is a proper statement of the case; and whether those who passed found places, and what was the period that elapsed between passing and finding a place. The reason I ask is that I hear occasionally complaints which may be typical, but that I do not know, that after passing their examination quite a number of months elapse before the successful candidates are called to fill the place. I do not know whether that is typical or whether it only occurred in the few cases that I heard of. It seems to me a reasonable grievance that candidates after they have gone through their examinations and passed have to wait, and wait a long time, before being called. There was a case I would like to refer to, if my memory will allow me, where a candidate who had been in the service in one capacity filled up his papers, was accepted as a candidates, and went through his examination. A fee was accepted from him. At the time I heard from him he had not been informed, and he could not obtain any information as to what place he had taken in the examination. It was alleged that he had disqualified himself from being appointed to the Civil Service because of certain action he had taken in the course of the recent trouble. It seems to me whether disqualified or not by virtue of that action, that the Commission had a right to let him know the place he had taken at the examination. They had taken his fee and they refused to give him any notification as to his place in the test. The result was that no virtue whatever was given to him, notwithstanding the fact that he had paid for an opportunity of proving his capacity. It seems to me that as an examining body the Civil Service Commission is bound to carry on its work independently of the decisions of the Executive Council as to whether they are going to place a man in a post or not. At least a candidate should be informed as to the result of his examination. I would like to know whether it is the considered policy, or simply an accident in the particular case, that a candidate is not allowed to avail himself of the prestige that comes to him for private employment by virtue of the fact that he took a certain place in the examination.

Mr. WOLFE

On the question of candidates for the Civil Service, I would like to draw the Minister's attention to a matter that I think requires some consideration, and that is the sending around of papers asking for particulars as to the character of a candidate. Certain people are taken at random, and questions are sent round to them that seem to me perfectly futile. I have had a good many of these papers sent to me, and I found that to answer the questions you would require to be the father of the boy or girl so as to be able to answer them. The most ridiculous and childish questions are asked equivalent to "Would you trust him out with a latch-key?" and "Has he ever had any illness?""Is he ill now?"—questions that no one outside the candidates' parents could answer. I have generally drawn a line through a whole lot of these questions and said "I know nothing about it." What is the use of sending papers like that around that no one can answer? Another question is: "If it were your own case, would you take the man or woman into your employment?" You may like him quite well, but you might not like to have him in your employment. The great difficulty in these matters, I think, is that the questions ought to be of a reasonable character so that you could give an honest answer.

Mr. BLYTHE

With reference to what Deputy Good said, it is very much easier to be out in an estimate for a very small department, unless it is a department that has purely routine functions that do not change, than to be out in a big department. In a big department one over-expenditure is balanced by an under-expenditure in another respect and it would work out even. All due care is exercised, and I think anybody will understand that no matter what care is excercised you cannot foresee the work to be done in a department like this for a year, and there is no way of being sure of not having a supplementary estimate but by an over-estimate. With reference to matters Deputy Johnson raised, there are special reasons which made the number of candidates low in comparison with the number of vacancies. For instance, a certain number of clerical vacancies were offered to ex-soldiers, and it was found that a considerably larger number of ex-soldiers were fully qualified than was expected, and it was decided then to extend the appointments and to appoint all the fully-qualified candidates if they were people who had given national service. They were required. The work they would do was being done by temporary clerks, and I think ultimately about three times as many vacancies were filled as were advertised. The examination was limited to a particular class. There were soldiers who recognised they had no chance and did not go in for the examination. If all soldiers had entered, you would have a big number of candidates, but there were not as many candidates in an examination like that as there would have been for the number of posts advertised if there had been open competition. Certain other examinations were also limited. There were shorthand-typist examinations limited to temporary typists already in the service of the Government, for a large number of temporary appointments were made during the years of dislocation before the Civil Service Commission was set up. This had the effect of reducing the proportion of candidates for the vacancies very considerably. With reference to the papers Deputy Wolfe complains of, I think those papers are not sent to people at random. They are sent to people whose names the candidate had given as being able to testify as to his capability and character.

Mr. WOLFE

What I meant was that the questions are futile, and are no guide as to the character of the candidate.

Mr. BLYTHE

I think one of the questions Deputy Wolfe has mentioned is an excellent one. The question is: "Would you be prepared to take him into your own employment?"

Mr. WOLFE

He might be quite unsuitable for that employment, but not for another.

Mr. BLYTHE

It is clearly with reference to health, or energy, or something that has relation to character. There is no use sending out papers asking for the colour of his hair or eyes.

Mr. WOLFE

What is the use of asking what state of health he is in at present?

Mr. BLYTHE

If you knew him well you would know his record, and you might know if he would be continually ill, and it might be a valuable piece of information supplemental to the doctor's report.

Question put and agreed to.