DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - FIREARMS BILL, 1925—THIRD STAGE.
Section 1 put and agreed to.
SECTION 2.
I beg to move:
To add after sub-section (3) (h) a new paragraph as follows:
"A captain of a ship or boat entering any port or harbour of Saorstát Eireann carrying on board firearms, ammunition, or explosives as part of the equipment of such vessel, shall, immediately on entering such port or harbour notify the Gárda Síochána and the Customs Authorities of the presence on board of such firearms, ammunition, etc., and must satisfy these authorities that such firearms, ammunition and explosives, etc., are ordinarily part of the vessel's equipment and will be under proper control while the vessel is in harbour."
I am not satisfied that the Bill is sufficiently watertight to prevent smuggling of arms and ammunition into the Saorstát. I think more responsibility should be thrown on the masters and owners of ships to prevent such illegal traffic. I am satisfied that a good deal of smuggling has taken place into the Saorstát during the past two years, and is likely to continue until such time as those engaged in such traffic are made aware that it is unprofitable. The penalties also should be more drastic. The whole responsibility as to discovering whether there are smuggled arms on a ship should not be thrown altogether on the Gárda Síochána and the Customs authorities. I have made some little study in searching a ship and I know how difficult it is. If people in collusion with others inside the Saorstát have arms concealed in a ship it is very difficult for the Customs authorities or the Gárda Síochána to locate them. I think that we should throw the responsibility over on the owners of the vessels, or the master of the ship, to notify the authorities when he enters the port of his having a certain quantity of such arms or ammunition as equipment, and he should also satisfy the authorities that this equipment is under proper control while it is in the harbour. Consequently I beg to move the amendment.
I am not satisfied that the amendment is necessary, and I am not quite clear as to the Deputy's intention in moving it. If the purpose of the amendment is to ensure that the arms carried on a vessel as part of the equipment should not be brought ashore, I think that the Bill as it stands and as drafted, covers that. But the Deputy's amendment would apply to a vessel which anchored in a harbour owing to stress of weather and which would proceed to sea without discharging anything. The amendment does not provide that failure to take the steps set out therein would constitute an offence under the Act. It is not considered desirable, and I have looked rather carefully into the matter, to add at all to the formalities to be complied with by ships' masters using the ports of the State, and the Deputy's amendment would appear to impose an unnecessary formality. Section 2, sub-section (3), paragraph (e) exempts from the provisions of the Bill the possession of a firearm or ammunition on board a ship as part of the equipment of the ship. That would appear to make it clear that the exemption ceases once the firearm is removed from aboard. But to put that matter beyond any doubt I can and will give consideration to the adding to the sub-section mentioned the words "so long as the firearm or ammunition is not brought ashore at any place in Saorstát Eireann." I would undertake to make an addition of that kind to the Bill on the Report Stage.
As to the intention to ensure that firearms be not smuggled in the guise of having them on board as merely part of the equipment of the ship, the powers vested by law in officers of Customs and Excise, if exercised to the full, ought to be adequate to effect that purpose, and having considered the matter carefully and having considered the Deputy's amendment carefully, I do not feel that we ought to attempt to add to those by any provision in this Bill. Smuggling is primarily a Customs and Excise matter, and if the Customs and Excise officials consider their existing powers inadequate they can make representations to that effect. My general view of the amendment is that it is inadvisable and undesirable to add harassing formalities to the duties of a ship's master or a ship's captain on touching at any of the ports of the State.
Does the Minister take into consideration the fact that our coastline is practically unprotected? During the British regime there were about 1,000 coastguards to protect the coastline against smuggling. Now we have only the Gárda Síochána. And no matter how desirous they may be to prevent smuggling I think it is a rather difficult duty to perform.
I know the Deputy's views on smuggling, and I am not unaware of that aspect of the matter. But I think that the smuggling aspect will not be met by a section in a Bill or in an Act. I mean that people who set out with a definite intention of smuggling arms into the State will not be deterred by anything you write into a Bill. I believe the result of the acceptance of the Deputy's amendment, or some modification of it, would be merely to add a harassing formality to the duties of people who have no intention of defeating the law. We have had some examples of people getting into trouble without any such intention.
I ask the leave of the Dáil to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question—"That Section 2 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 3, SUB-SECTION (5).
Where the firearms described in a firearm certificate is a shot-gun the certificate may be expressed and in such case shall operate to authorise such firearm to be used only for killing vermin on land occupied by the person to whom such certificate is granted.
I move:—
In sub-section (5), page 4, line 9, to delete the word "vermin" and to substitute therefor the words "animals or birds other than game."
I think on the Second Reading of the Bill there was a question by a Deputy as to whether the farmer would be entitled to shoot rabbits or woodquests on his own land. The object of introducing this amendment would be to ensure that a person holding a firearms certificate would be entitled to shoot birds or animals other than game on his own land.
Amendment agreed to.
I would like to ask Deputy Duggan if that amendment clashes in any way with the Wild Birds Protection Act?
Question—"That Section 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
Section 4, 5, 6 and 7 put and agreed to.
SECTION 8.
(1) The following persons are hereby declared to be disentitled to hold a firearm certificate, that is to say:—
(a) any person under the age of eighteen years, and
(b) any person of intemperate habits, and
(c) any person of unsound mind, and
(d) any person who has been sentenced by any court in Saorstát Eireann for any crime to penal servitude for any term which has not expired or has expired within five years previously, and
(e) any person who has been sentenced by any court in Saorstát Eireann for any crime to imprisonment of any term of not less than three months which has not expired or has expired within five years previously, and
(f) any person who is subject to the supervision of the police, and
(g) any person who is bound by a recognizance to keep the peace or be of good behaviour, a condition of which is that such person shall not have in his possession, or use, or carry any firearm or ammunition.
(2) Any person who is by virtue of this section disentitled to hold a firearm certificate shall also be disentitled to hold a permit under this Act in relation to any firearm or ammunition.
I would like to ask the Minister if he could give us a little more information about this term, "who is subject to the supervision of the police." Formerly that was a strictly technical term, but it occurs to me that a little more definition would be required for fear that some judge would say that it was not a technical term in this Bill.
I think that there is scarcely any prospect of misunderstanding with regard to the wording of that. It is really a well-recognised description of persons released on licence before the expiration of the term of imprisonment to which they have been sentenced. They are under a certain duty to report periodically to the police, and the police keep a general supervision over their conduct during the unexpired term of their sentence. If the Deputy wishes I will look further into it to see whether any substitute wording would be an improvement. But that is the description which the parliamentary draughtsman considered the correct one for persons released on licence before the expiry of the term of imprisonment.
Of course, there are cases where persons have been discharged subject to coming up for judgment when called upon, and it might well be that that class of person might be considered to be under the supervision of the police unless there is a more clear definition than this. However, having called attention to it, I am not able to say whether it is strictly watertight or not, and I ask the Minister to give special consideration to the point.
My intention is this, and I will make sure that it has been in fact fulfilled, that the only incapacity under (f) would be the incapacity of persons released from prison before the actual expiration of their sentence.
There is a sub-section here that I take exception to; that is, sub-section (a): "any person under the age of 18 years." I think that is a bit too old. We have seen good shots at 15 or 16 years of age. If our young men do not know anything about taking down a bird before they reach the age of 18 you will have very few game licences. Generally, they graduate younger than that. This will mean that you will have few game licences taken out, and I take exception to it.
I think there is a good deal in the Deputy's objection, and I will undertake to look into it. I think possibly that 16 would be quite low enough.
I will look into that, and probably I will bring in an amendment.
Question —"That Section 8 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to. Section 9 to 16 put and agreed to.
SECTION 17.
I move:—
To insert before sub-section (8) a new sub-section as follows:
"A captain of a ship or boat entering any port or harbour of Saorstát Eireann for the purpose of discharge, repairs or other business and having on board either as whole or part cargo firearms, ammunition, or explosives, shall, immediately on entering such port or harbour, report the nature of his cargo to the local Gárda Síochána and Customs Authorities. Failure to do so will be an offence under this section and shall be punishable accordingly."
The amendment provides merely that the captain of a ship carrying munitions of war on entering a port of the Saorstát for the purpose of discharge, repairs or other business should, immediately on entering such port or harbour, report the nature of his cargo to the local Gárda Síochána and Customs authorities. There may be some confusion in his mind as to whether the harbour authorities or the State authorities were the persons to report to. I think we had such a case some few months ago. There was some confusion in the captain's mind as to the proper authority to report to. It is quite possible that according to the captain's regulations he should report to the harbour authorities. Those authorities may neglect to report to the proper authorities, and it may be some considerable time before such authorities would know of the nature of the cargo. I think there should be no confusion, and I merely put down this amendment in order to have the Minister's opinion on the matter
In the case of this amendment, as in the case of the Deputy's other amendment, there has been contact with the Customs and Excise officials as well as with the Department of Industry and Commerce. The position at present is that the officers of Customs and Excise have full powers to prevent the master of a ship from unloading his cargo at any place on the quay or wharf other than that permitted by them and approved by them. Before an unloading process commences the ship's papers and cargo are carefully inspected by the officers of Customs and Excise to ascertain if it is carrying any goods the importation of which is prohibited or upon which duty must be paid on importation. These powers, already vested in the officers of Customs and Excise, are considered adequate and secure the object which the Deputy seeks to obtain by his amendment, and they are sufficient to guard against any unlawful importation of arms or any unlawful interference with arms on board a ship if they form part of the cargo. Therefore, I say, after consultation with the Customs and Excise officials and with the Department of Industry and Commerce, I consider the Deputy's amendment unnecessary.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 17 to 28 put and agreed to.
Question—"That the title stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
