Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 19 May 1925

Vol. 11 No. 16

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ARTERIAL DRAINAGE BILL, 1925—(MONEY RESOLUTION).

MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

I move:—

Chun críche aon Achta a rithfar sa tSiosón so chun socrú do dhéanamh chun talamh do dhréineáil agus chun talamh do leasú tré dhréineáil, go bhfuil sé oiriúnach a údarú go n-íocfar amach as airgead a sholáthróidh an tOireachtas—	That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to make provision for the drainage of land and improvement of land by drainage, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas of—
(a) an méid is cóir leis an Aire Airgid de sna contaísí fé n-a raghaidh Coimisinéirí na nOibreacha Puiblí i ndéanamh aon scéime dréineála fén Acht san; agus	(a) so much as the Minister for Finance shall think proper of the expenses incurred by the Commissioners of Public Works in carrying out any drainage scheme under such Act; and
(b) dhá dtrian de sna costaisí fé n-a raghaidh Coimisinéirí na nOibreacha Puiblí fén Acht san mar gheall ar aon scéim dréineála ná beidh déanta ina iomlán.	(b) two-thirds of the expenses incurred by the Commissioners of Public Works under such Act in connection with any drainage scheme not fully carried out.

There is no limit in the resolution, or in the Bill, as to the contributions that may be made from the Exchequer in the carrying out of any particular scheme of drainage. That is a matter that will be decided in each particular instance, and it will in every instance come before the Dáil by way, either of a supplementary estimate, or will appear in the annual Estimates, unless the scheme were to be a very small one indeed, and might be covered by some general heading in a provision for minor drainage works.

It is provided that only two-thirds of the expenses incurred in connection with any scheme not fully carried out, shall be defrayed by the Commissioners of Public Works. As the Parliamentary Secretary explained, the purpose of that is to ensure there will be some scrutiny of schemes by the county councils, and that we will not have bogus schemes, or schemes that are not worth any consideration, sent forward, with the consequent expense of inquiring into and examining them being cast upon the central authorities.

Mr. JOHN CONLAN

Following on the motion of the Minister for Finance, I would like to ask has he taken into account the necessity for making advances for carrying out drainage schemes in bogs? I regard the omission of that provision from the Bill as a very serious one.

Mr. BLYTHE

In bogs?

Mr. CONLAN

Yes. As most Deputies know, bogs are of great importance to the country. They provide five-sixths of the fuel used by the rural population

Mr. BLYTHE

I see no reason why a bog should not be drained just the same as any other land might be drained under the Bill.

Professor O'SULLIVAN

I think Deputy Conlan could raise this matter when we come to consider the Bill. We are not discussing the Bill at the moment. We are only dealing with the Financial Motion connected with it.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

This motion is to provide money for drainage purposes.

Mr. BAXTER

The point Deputy Conlan wanted to make is this: in moving this Resolution, does the Minister contemplate that the Drainage Bill that is introduced is meant to cover the drainage of bogs and is he moving for a sum of money that will enable that work to be done?

Mr. BLYTHE

This Resolution covers all drainage of land that may be undertaken in consequence of the passage of this Bill.

Mr. CONLAN

If it is open to me to raise the question under Section 2, I will be satisfied.

Mr. JOHNSON

I want just to put in a word here on behalf of the future. I would not like it to be thought that the Financial Motion would be used, or that at least opportunities would be taken, to restrict the discussion of any part of the Bill, or anything brought up in the Bill. It is very important that we should safeguard the right of Deputies to discuss anything that arises out of a Bill on a Financial Motion. While I do not want to do it, I would like to utter a word of warning, and for Deputy Conlan's sake I would point out that unless there is something in the amendments which would enable him to discuss the point, he ought to take advantage of the present occasion.

Mr. CONLAN

I may say that I had an amendment covering the point and it was ruled out of order.

Mr. BAXTER

The point is very important, and it would not be right that we should let the Minister for Finance off so easily as that, without making him clearly understand that we first want to know his intention in moving this Financial Resolution, and whether his intention is to cover the drainage of land and of bogs. There are hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of acres now coming under the control of the Land Commission, and what is in Deputy Conlan's mind, and in the minds of the other Deputies is, will money be provided by the Minister for Finance for the drainage of these bogs that are the property of the Land Commission and that presently may pass over into the hands of the tenants, or are they left out of consideration altogether in the measure? That is the point I want to raise on the discussion now, because if the Minister is not moving for enough money to do that work, we would like to urge upon him the necessity for allocating a sufficient amount in that direction.

Mr. BLYTHE

There is no intention to provide money, but of course future Finance Ministers may feel differently about it. The work might be carried out without an Exchequer contribution.

Mr. WILSON

The measure provides for certain machinery by which drainage can be perfected, and the Minister knows it is necessary that six rated occupiers are to petition the county council to get the scheme through. There is no such thing as that in the case of a bog. You could not get six rated occupiers in a bog. That is the point Deputy Conlan wants to get settled.

Mr. BLYTHE

I think there are bogs we could get at.

Mr. CONLAN

It is very well known to everybody with a knowledge of the country that the people who use the bog do not live in the bog or on the bog. They live outside of it, and they are not rated for the bog at all. Therefore they cannot pose as rated occupiers of land proposed to be improved. Hitherto the drainage was attended to by the landlord, who derived certain rents from the setting of the turbary. Now that it has gone out of the possession of the landlord, and in some cases it is vested in the Land Commission, or is about to be vested in the Land Commission, there is nobody to attend to this work, with the result that some of these bogs, one or two of which I have personal knowledge of, are nearly inaccessible to the people who use the bog. That is what I want to remedy. I want some machinery set up by which the drainage would be effected and maintained.

Mr. BLYTHE

I do not really know what the position is about the rating of people in connection with certain bogs. There are bogs for which people are rated. There may be bogs in connection with which the people who use them are not rated. In any case this Money Resolution puts no difficulties in the way of dealing with the matter. If it is necessary to set up machinery, or to make some special provision that is not in the Bill, to enable drainage of bogs to be carried out, that provision can be inserted. This is to make provision for the drainage and improvement of land and it authorises the payment of monies in connection with that work. What may not be provided for is the setting of the machinery in motion in connection with certain lands, such as those with which the Deputy has dealt. There is nothing in this Resolution to prevent the Bill being amended, and the necessary machinery provided. When we contemplate the provision of money out of the Exchequer to assist the drainage of land, we have in mind the making of arable land or the prevention by drainage of damage to land. We have not contemplated, nor do we contemplate, the giving of an Exchequer grant for the purpose of enabling the drainage of bogs to be carried out; but the machinery can be put into the Bill to enable the work to be carried out. This work may well be done at the expense of the people who benefit.

Mr. CONLAN

Does not the Minister recognise that that will involve an alteration of the wording of Section 2, which reads: "Any six or more persons being rated-occupiers of lands which are liable to be flooded," and so on? What I maintain is, that you cannot get six rated-occupiers to apply to the county council for the improvement of this land, because a bog is land, and, therefore, the wording of Section 2 will have to be altered, or something will have to be added, bringing in machinery for the purpose of effecting drainage.

Mr. BLYTHE

If what the Deputy says is correct, that is so; but nothing that is in this Money Resolution will prevent the Bill being amended in the sense which the Deputy suggests is necessary.

Question put and agreed to.

Financial Resolution ordered to be reported.