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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 26 May 1925

Vol. 11 No. 20

DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - TREASONABLE OFFENCES BILL, 1925—FROM THE SEANAD.

I propose to ask the Dáil to agree with all the amendments made in the Bill as it comes from the Seanad. Certain of them are consequential upon the passing of the Police Forces Amalgamation Bill. I think amendments 4, 7, 8, 9 and 10 come under that head. That leaves amendments 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6. Amendment 1 is to delete in Section 1 (2), lines 32 and 33, the words ("other than levying war against Saorstát Eireann").

These words in brackets were inserted simply on the view that you could not from without the State levy war against the State. That view, of course, is not strictly accurate and that was pointed out in the Seanad. We propose to delete these words accordingly.

Amendment 2 is in Section 1 (3), after the word "shall," line 40, to insert the following words: ("unless he satisfies the court that he did not know, and had no reason to believe that the person encouraged, harboured or comforted was so engaged, concerned or taking part as aforesaid").

I accepted that amendment, my personal view on it being that it merely states the legal position. It merely sets out, expressly, what I believe would be the case, in any event, whether or not this amendment were inserted, and that it would be a sufficient reply to a charge, under that particular sub-section, that the accused had no knowledge or means of knowledge, that the person he was harbouring was engaged in hostility to the State.

The third amendment is consequential on an amendment passed here in the Dáil providing that two witnesses would be necessary to secure a conviction on any charge under this section, and, consequently, in view of that amendment, the words "and upon the like evidence" as in the case of a murder charge, were deleted.

Amendment 4, in Section 2, line 6, the words "the Dublin Metropolitan Police or" were deleted, is an amendment that follows upon the passing of the Police Forces Amalgamation Bill.

Amendment 5 to Section 3, suggests that before the word "orders," in line 39, the adjective "lawful" should be inserted. That is an obvious kind of amendment, and it follows the wording of the Defence Forces Act, a particular section of the Defence Forces Act, which is relevant.

Amendment 6 is, in principle, the same as amendment No. 2. It sets out expressly that:

"No person shall be liable to be convicted under this section in respect of the act of encouraging, harbouring or protecting, mentioned in paragraph (b) of the foregoing sub-section, if he satisfies the court that he did not know and had no reason to believe that the person he encouraged, harboured or protected, was engaged, concerned or taking part in any such attempt as is referred to in the said paragraph."

It merely states what the position would be in any event. The remaining amendments follow from the passing of the Police Forces Amalgamation Bill. I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in those amendments.

I had hoped—and I certainly would have been better pleased in the circumstances—that the Minister would move that the Dáil do not agree with these amendments. My hope was based on the expectation that the Seanad would insist on their amendments, and then the country would be given a respite for nine months, at any rate. In the meantime, and perhaps even now, the Minister might agree to propose that the Dáil be asked to refuse to accept the amendments in the hope that the Seanad would insist upon them. Then, possibly, the Minister would arrange to have the whole question referred to the country by way of referendum, at the time of the Seanad elections. I think we would be doing a very good piece of work, from several points of view, if the Minister would adopt that course. I mean that he would move to disagree with the Seanad amendments, and suggest to the Seanad that they should insist on their amendments, with a view to referring the whole Bill to the country by way of referendum. We might then be testing the views of the country on the present Bill; we might then be testing the practicability of a referendum without much expense; and, generally, we might be testing the views of the country upon the Minister's policy in respect of this matter. I have not much hope that that suggestion will commend itself to the Minister; but I throw it out for his consideration. I am not going to risk the loss of these amendments. Slight as they are, there is a certain value in them. Perhaps the Minister would rise to the bait that I have thrown on the waters?

Question—"That the Committee agree with the Seanad in the amendments"—put and agreed to.
Amendments ordered to be reported.
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