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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 9 Jun 1925

Vol. 12 No. 5

PRIVATE BUSINESS. - ALLOTMENTS AND COMMON PASTURE BILL, 1925. SECOND STAGE.

I move the Second Reading of this Bill. Its origin lies in the friendly challenge uttered by the Minister for Local Government in December last. I had put down certain amendments to the Local Government Bill imposing on local authorities the duty of providing allotments for the growth of vegetables. The Minister explained that in his judgment it was not fitting to place such an obligation on local authorities in a Local Government Bill which had mainly to do with administration, and that that was a matter rather for the Minister for Lands and Agriculture than for him. He promised to consider the matter with the Minister for Lands and Agriculture and see what could be done. Then he said:—"Mr. Johnson says he has no other way of making the feelings of the people he represents known except by inserting this amendment in the Bill, but I think that the Deputy and his party adopted a very effective way of making known their attitude with regard to another matter. They introduced a Railway Bill which met with considerable approval in the Dáil. I do not know but that they will be able to introduce a measure of this kind also."

The present Bill is a response to that friendly challenge. There is no dispute, speaking generally, about the value of allotments, or plots as they have come to be called. I think it is generally accepted that the movement for the provision of allotments, for town workers particularly, has been beneficial in every possible way. It gives healthful recreation, and helpful labour of a kind which is a change from the ordinary wage-earning labour of the occupier of the plot. It is educative, and it is economical in as much as it helps to provide a variety of fresh vegetable food of guaranteed quality for a family.

One might deal with the movement for allotments by touching upon the history of the practice of allocating small plots to town workers and to country workers. Going a considerable distance into the last century, mainly in England and Scotland, but speaking generally, from the year 1907—I think after the passing of the Small Holdings and Allotment Act in Great Britain, it was mainly a rural movement confined to the villagers or the inhabitants of the very small towns. It was not until the war that the movement became an urban movement to so great an extent that it has. I find that in 1909 there were in England and Wales 58,000 individuals who had allotments provided for them by the local authorities, but by 1920 the number had increased to 580,000. Speaking generally, it has become more an urban than a rural movement. The primary purpose of the plots is to provide vegetables for the family of the plotholders. It is interesting and very valuable to remember that the greater number of plot-holders had no experience whatever when they began to work on the land. I am informed that not less than 50 per cent. of the plotholders in Dublin had no knowledge whatever of work on land, or of growing crops of any kind. When they began with the plot holding it was to them a matter of doubt whether the potatoes grew like apples on the trees, or that carrots had roots like cucumbers. That was the state of mind of very many of these plotholders with regard to the growth of food. Nevertheless, the fact is proved that the urban worker has become in most cases more successful than the country-bred plotholder. That is true not only of Dublin but of most of the towns of England and Scotland. That, I think, is partly to be accounted for by the fact that the town man has developed a variety of taste in vegetables, and that he is not, as a plotholder, confined to the growth of potatoes and cabbage. During the war time I understand certain prizes were given for the best cared for and the best tilled plots in Dublin district with the best variety and quality of vegetables, and in the second season an absolute novice became the first prize winner. That is a very interesting consideration, and will show that there is a possibility in this movement of uniting the interests of the townsman with that of the country man, and bringing the townsman to understand some of the difficulties, problems and risks that the farmer has to meet. It will also, perhaps, have the contra effect of inducing the agriculturists-perhaps one might say, more particularly, the country allotment holder, the labourer's cottage holder, who has his acre—to do more intensive tillage and grow more of his own food than he has hitherto done.

I would also ask the Dáil to recognise that there has been a very valuable economic consideration to many men who have been unemployed during this last year or two in having had at hand a plot which they had learned to utilise to its fullest advantage. In one case a man who has had long unemployment and a large family informs me that out of his own plot and that of his son they have been able to maintain the family from one year to another entirely in vegetable food. Had they not had such a stand-by they do not know how they could have gone through the last winter.

It is not only the men who are convenient to plots that have been induced to take this great interest in the movement. Many cases could be cited in this city where men constantly travelled two and three miles on bicycles for the whole period of the growing season, attending their plots after their work, and sometimes in the morning before they begin work. Long travel of the kind indicates that there is a real enthusiasm among many people for this plot-holding movement and that enthusiasm has its reactions in a very valuable acquisition of knowledge—patience as the farmers will tell us—and social and educative values. The plot-holders, though there are still 1,000 of them in Dublin and vicinity—that being a decline from the high peak of 3,000 during the war—have much to complain about inasmuch as they are not any way secure. When they have put their seed in the ground and used all their labour, they do not know how soon they may be evicted or deprived of their holding. That is the main explanation for the decline from 3,000 to 1,000 plots in and around Dublin. Some of these sites have been taken from them, shall I say, on the plea that they were wanted for building purposes. A year or two have elapsed from the time the plots were re-occupied, and yet no building has been undertaken. That is one of the grievances that this Bill is intended to remedy.

I do not think it worth while, at this stage at any rate, unless one is challenged on the matter, to go into any explanation of or any justification for the decline in plot-holding. I will say, however, that in my judgement, from the information supplied to me, the men who have maintained their plots are to be congratulated on having had the perseverance and persistence, and that it is not blameworthy upon those others, many of whom have been obliged to give up their plot-holding because of the insecurity, because of the fact in many cases that the fields in which they were working have been taken from them for a variety of reasons.

I may say that this Bill contains nothing but what has been in operation in either Ireland, England or Scotland, or is contemplated in reports of the Departmental Committee which inquired into the allotments movement in Scotland. If any Deputy has any doubt about the moderate character of the Bill, that statement ought to remove such doubt. In the main, the Bill desires to give moderate security of tenure to the plot-holder, to provide compensation for the value of the growing crops, in case he is obliged to leave the plot during the growing season, to impose an obligation upon the local authorities to provide plots where they can be obtained, and where there is a desire to enter heartily into the movement for the development of plot-holding.

Part I. of the Bill indicates that there is to be recognition on the part of the local authorities of the existence of plot-holders, or those who desire to be plot-holders, and responsibility for providing land for cultivation in this manner. I would point out that if six registered electors or rated occupiers notify the local authority that there is a demand for allotments, then the local authority shall take such representation into consideration. The local authority shall make inquiries, or if they are otherwise of the opinion that there is a demand for allotments by qualified applicants, then they shall acquire any suitable land which may be available, within or without their area, adequate to provide a sufficient number of allotments. The local authority shall be satisfied that there is a demand for allotments by qualified applicants, and Section 8 sets it forth that rules may be made, subject to the sanction of the Minister, defining the qualifications of the persons eligible to be holders of allotments. Suitable land can be seen to be land which can be obtained, the price of which would be covered by the amount which can be reasonably expected to be paid over in annual payments by the plot-holders. The duties of the councils shall be, in the case of county areas, to provide plots of half an acre in extent, or in the case of borough councils or urban councils containing a population over 7,000, one-eighth of an acre in extent. There is nothing to prevent either the borough council or the county council going beyond that if they are able, and consider it wise to do so. It shall be the duty of the councils to provide such allotments within the provisions of the Bill. It has been found, so far as spare time occupation is contemplated, in respect of the town or city allotment, that one-eighth of an acre is the standard, and is usually about sufficient to allow a man to cultivate it with care, and give it proper attention. Beyond that, some may be able to do better than others, but, speaking generally, one-eighth of an acre has been found a reasonable standard for a plot. In the country other conditions will be applicable, and probably the plot would not be cultivated wholly as a garden. A larger area is, therefore, provided for. Section 7 provides that the Council may enter into agreements with a number of persons working as an association, or working co-operatively, and may let a field to such a body. It contemplates the existence of such associations. Another section provides that an association of plot-holders or allotment-holders should be consulted in regard to certain representations that I will come to in a moment.

As I said, it is intended to establish this allotments movement on a substantial foundation, to give it recognition and, where there are set up allotment committees or organisations of plot-holders or allotment-holders the local council shall take such an association into consideration. It is provided that a borough council, or an urban district council with a population of 7,000 or over shall establish an allotments committee, and the general supervision of the allotments shall devolve upon that committee, subject to the usual supervision of the council itself. The allotments committee shall contain, to the extent of one-third of its number, persons experienced in the management and cultivation of allotments, representative of the holders of, or applicants for, allotments. The allotments movement has been organised in Ireland. It is well organised in Dublin city, where the greatest number of allotments exist. There are local associations in different parts of the country and there is a general understanding as to the purposes and desires of this movement. I think it is well that if such a committee is to be set up by a local authority persons actively and keenly interested should receive certain recognition and consultation.

Part II. of the Bill is one of the utmost importance to many parts of the country. It is rather an extension of allotments proper and it provides that the same consideration, powers and responsibilities that are sought to be provided for in respect of allotments shall also apply in respect of common pasture. I want to emphasise this point that when we speak in the Bill of common pasture, we are thinking entirely of pasture for milk production, grazing for milch cattle and goats for domestic needs and not for the grazing of stock for sale in the market. I understand that thought has been raised, in one or two quarters as somewhat objectionable, because it has been stated that in certain counties persons obtained land under public authorities intended for pasture originally for cows, but which was used by Tom, Dick and Harry on behalf of wealthier neighbours for the purpose of grazing stock for sale in the market. The whole object of the Bill is to provide in one case food, and in the other case milk, for consumption primarily by the family of the occupier. Here and there occasionally there will be a surplus of vegetables of one kind or another, but the primary purpose is to provide food for the family. We have defined a qualified person as being a person who is prepared to cultivate an allotment by the labour of himself and members of his own family, and who is not already in possession of sufficient land to enable him to provide vegetables for his own household. The provisions regarding common pastures are subject to modification to meet the special needs of pasture but, in the main, the purpose is the same, to provide milk for the family of the occupier.

It is intended that the powers given to the Department of Agriculture in Ireland during the war shall be maintained, with modifications. It is intended that a local authority may acquire land for the purposes of the Bill either by purchase by agreement, by compulsory acquisition, or by purchase from the Land Commission under the Land Act of 1923, or by purchase from the Land Commission by a local authority as trustee in accordance with Section 4 of the Irish Land Act, 1903, and Sections 31 and 69 of the Land Act, 1923. It is not intended specifically to guard against the taking from a public utility undertaking, corporation or otherwise, of land which is wanted for public works. It is specifically provided that land which is required for housing should be given over to housing, that housing should have precedence, even in the case of land, which is at present under allotments, or may have been at any time under allotments, but is required for housing, subject to three months' notice and subject to compensation for the value of the growing crops. There is also a provision for the local authority to enter upon what is known as vacant land, that is to say, land which is not the subject of rateable occupation. It is known, of course, that much land which in the early part of the war period was derelict and useless was entered upon and made to blossom as the rose in a way that was nothing short of miraculous. Vacant lands are still lying in some parts, unoccupied, unused, useless to anybody, and not of any value to the ratepayers as rate-producing land. It is provided that vacant land may be entered upon by the local authority, but that such occupation should be terminated on due notice.

What may be said, from the point of view of the allotment-holder, to be the most important provision of the Bill and the factor which will determine whether the allotment movement is to grow or not is in Part IV, which provides that the allotment-holding shall not be terminable except by six months' notice, ending on the 1st May or the 1st November, that is, the 31st October, or if the land is required for building or industrial purposes on three months' notice, or if required by any corporation or public company for purposes other than agriculture, three months' notice, except in cases of emergency. But when the holding is terminated, or is sought to be terminated, for the ostensible reason that it is required for building, the local authority will have a right to be satisfied that the work, either preparatory to the building, or the building proper, will be ready for beginning at the time of the termination of the holding. There have been not a few instances where men have been deprived of their plots for the alleged reason that it was required for building purposes, and quite a considerable time—years in one or two cases—have elapsed, but the building has not yet been begun. We think that it is quite undesirable that men should be deprived of the opportunity of utilising this land for healthful, valuable work on the plea that it was required for more valuable work, but the more valuable work is not taken in hand, and the less valuable work is altogether denied, so that provision is made in the Bill that the local authority shall be satisfied that the work will be commenced on the termination of the holding.

I have already said that there is a provision for compensation on quitting the allotment, compensation to this extent, that where men have put in seed and manure they shall not be evicted, if I may use the word, between the 1st May and the 1st November, without compensation for the value of that seed and manure-the growing crops. That is surely a reasonable proposition, but, unfortunately, many men have been made ill-tempered, to say the least, and have become very resentful by virtue of the fact that they have been driven off their plots, have been forced to take everything out of the ground within a very few days, and have lost any value to which their labour has entitled them.

These are, speaking sketchily, the main provisions of the Bill, and I think, apart from possible faults in drafting, that it should meet with the general approval of the House, and should at least be given the sanction of a Second Reading. I hope that if the Bill, or any Bill containing similar provisions, becomes law, that it will have the effect of placing this allotments movement on a firm and secure foundation, that it will become very much more popular than it has been hitherto, that it will become general throughout the country, not only in the cities and towns, but in country places also. The cost to the country will be very small indeed. There is no intention whatever that it will become a charge upon the rates. As a matter of fact it is specifically provided that the councils shall charge such a sum for the use of the plots as would cover their expenditure for the purchase of the land. We are not asking for a subsidy; we are asking for an opportunity to encourage a most healthful, beneficent, educative movement that will increase public health, increase the food supply, increase the knowledge of the growth of things, increase the practice of cooperative effort, and engender civic pride. I think that we might look forward to the development of this movement and, concurrently, a very rapid development of the movement for school gardens in all parts of the country, linking thereby the children at school with the efforts of their parents at home, and inducing also the education authority, whether the Department of Agriculture or the Minister for Education, to put into the field a considerable number of expert horticultural instructors who would help the school-garden movement, help the plot-holding movement, and by these varied means generally promote a very healthful, beneficent change in the face of the country. I believe that it would not only be a change from the point of view of food production but that the influence would go out and stimulate agriculture indirectly, that is, horticulture in association with agriculture; would induce the farmer as well as the farm labourer to grow more food, and food of a greater variety for his own use, that we would not always be thinking of potatoes and cabbage but of the very much more varied and perhaps more healthful classes of vegetables that are included in the region of horticulture. Throughout England and Scotland, and to a very much greater extent on the Continent, I am informed by those who have recently observed it, this allotments movement has been taken up with great avidity. It will be taken up here if it is encouraged. Certain discouragements have been general enough in this country and in England. These discouragements have been removed, but I would like to see an active, positive effort towards the forwarding of this movement of plot-holding made here in Ireland.

I desire to second the motion. I think it should not be necessary to put forward reasons to show that this, or a similar Bill, should be passed. I think it will be generally agreed that there is a great need and a great demand for land to be held under such conditions. I am sure that the Minister for Lands and Agriculture will bear me out when I say that in very many parts of the country cottage holders who have only half acres of ground have been demanding additional half acres ever since the Dáil was established. I am sure that the files of the Minister for Local Government are full of demands from all over the country for an extension of the plots that people already hold, and I am sure the Minister for Lands and Agriculture will bear me out when I say that every Deputy has time and time again, put forward representations from their constituents to acquire lands for growing vegetables or for grazing cows to supply milk. I think it will be generally agreed that in some of the urban districts in rural Ireland there is a great shortage of milk from the point of view of the working population. Whether it pays farmers and milk producers better to sell it otherwise or not I do not know, but some of the working class people find it almost impossible to buy sufficient milk to keep their children supplied.

I know cases where they find it difficult to get more than a pint or half-a-pint per day. In the rural districts I know many cases of farm labourers who find it impossible to purchase one pint of milk a day from the farmer. Whether the farmers will not supply milk for certain reasons to certain persons I do not know, but it seems that farm labourers other than those actually employed by farmers, find it almost impossible to obtain a supply of milk from the farmers in the locality. Perhaps it pays the farmer better to supply to the creameries than to supply it in small quantities for household use. I approached the Minister for Agriculture on this point. I know there have been demands all over Cork and other counties in the South of Ireland for small plots, whereby they could keep milch cows or goats. I think every Deputy will agree that something should be done to meet this demand. As far as this Bill is concerned, in my opinion it is moderate, and has by no means any suspicion of the taint of bolshevism or compulsory acquirement about it. It does not try to work a miracle. In Clause 3 it lays down that a county council is only to be compelled to acquire land where such land is available. We do not want a public authority to acquire land where land is not available. I think the Minister for Agriculture will bear me out that in that we are better than some people who approached him recently and wanted land which could not be got except by acquiring some which was under the sea. I think that the method of payment also in this Bill is a reasonable one. It does not try to lay any burden whatsoever on the ratepayers. It tends to make the persons, who are going to avail of the allotments provided, make the payments themselves. As the matter is so obviously necessary to me, and as I believe that everyone else has as much intelligence as I have, its necessity, too, ought to be obvious to them.

I would not care to intervene at this stage, but that I have another engagement of public interest. With the general principles of the Bill, as spoken to by Deputy Johnson, I have much sympathy. In fact, as a medical man I am in full sympathy with him, especially in respect of Part II. of the Bill. Where it provides for milk for cottiers, whether in urban or rural districts, I see great necessity. Our young people, especially infants, suffer very much from the want of a proper and sufficient supply of milk. Since the creameries were established, the scarcity of milk is unquestionable. In fact, the farmers themselves do not get enough milk for their families. There is some kind of ambition on their part to sum up the total amount of the milk they can send to the creameries.

Another grievance.

The result is, as I have said, that they have not sufficient for themselves, nor have they any milk to sell to the cottiers in their neighbourhood. In my practice as a dispensary doctor I always saw, when I entered an agricultural labourers house, a teapot by the side of the fire It seemed to be stewing there from morning to night, and the children, even at as early an age as twelve months, got something out of the teapot. It did not require much imagination to estimate the damage a stew out of that teapot could to the children. I believe that it was responsible for destroying their digestion for all time. It is true that goats could be made use of for milking purposes. The goat is a destructive animal and makes it almost impossible for a man to keep anything else on his plot while she is around. This has led to a great deal of her unpopularity, but there is no milk equal to a goat's milk for rearing young children, mainly because it is almost like human milk in its constitution, and because a goat might be considered immune from tuberculosis. There is no reason why common pasturage could not be used for grazing goats as well as for a smaller breed of cows, such as the Kerry cow. Although the Kerry cow is not as immune from tuberculosis, she is nevertheless comparatively free. We have two breeds of cows particularly prone to tuberculosis. We have first the Jersey; after her the Shorthorn dairy cow comes a good second. That might be of interest to some of the farmers' representatives here. I hope if this pasturage is got for the use of cottiers that neither the Jersey nor the dairy Shorthorn will be the cow they will have for their milk supply.

I do not know what is the mind of the Government with regard to this Bill. I somehow imagine they are in sympathy with its principles, but I can quite understand that possibly they would take some exception to the method proposed in the Bill with regard to the acquisition of land. I would much prefer to see the acquisition of land placed in the hands of the Land Commission or the Minister for Lands and Agriculture. I say that because he would approach the acquisition of land with a very much more detached mind than the local authority would. I had a good deal of experience of local authorities and of the acquisition of land, especially for plots for agricultural labourers. It was no uncommon thing for a man to become a member of a local authority with the idea of taking a plot off himself and putting it on to his neighbour. It also at times gave a man some peculiar satisfaction to put a plot on some people against whom he had an imaginary grievance. I think the Bill should not be sacrificed over any difference of opinion as to which authority would be the best to acquire the land. I am certainly in favour of the acquisition of pasture land for allotment purposes, and I think the power should be placed in the hands of the Land Commission. I think they will acquire those lands in a manner free from any bias and they will give more general satisfaction.

There must be great care exercised in acquiring those lands. As Deputy Johnson points out, building land and land required for other accommodation will not be acquired. I do not think there is any chance of bringing common pasture or land for allotments practically to the doors of those looking for it. The people must make up their minds that they will have to go out in the country a mile or two. It will be difficult to get them to do that. I must say, from my experience of the Dublin people who had allotments, that I do not believe anything too high can be said of the way that they utilised them. They made the very best use of them, and if the same will be done in the country I think the success of this scheme is assured. I cannot say the same for agricultural labourers throughout Ireland. I know that many of them let their plots go altogether out of tillage. I was only wondering will there be any possibility of the allotment-holders doing the same in the more remote urban districts. I hope the Government, which I have the honour to support, if they cannot adopt the whole Bill, will find some way out in which they can give its principles effect.

Deputy Johnson has, as usual, treated the Bill which he has moved very exhaustively and very carefully. I would not have said anything, but there was one matter which I do not think he touched upon when recommending the general principles of his Bill. I support not only the general principle, but, in the main, the way in which the details have been worked out in the actual provisions of the Bill. There is only one consideration that I desire to touch on, and that is the effect the Bill would have on one of the most important questions in Ireland to-day, the cost of living figure. Throughout England and other countries the principle that has been embodied in this Bill has been adopted and put into very extensive practice. The result is it has reduced the cost of living in those countries to a very considerable degree. We know that the cost of living figure in Great Britain is lower than the figure in Ireland. I am informed by those who made careful inquiry into the matter that the actual figure, if it could be assessed in England, would be considerably lower than the figure set out in the official assessment, and that, in fact, the scale of wages paid in many parts of the industrial areas of England to-day, where trade is in a bad way, would not be sufficient to maintain families except for the fact that the principle of this Bill has been adopted there. In some areas practically anything between seventy and seventyfive per cent. of the families of the people have got plots like these on which they depend very largely for the maintenance of their livelihood year in and year cut.

Deputy Johnson referred to the fact that the plot-holding and plot-cultivating movement developed in Ireland very considerably during the period of the war. It is obvious why that was so. In the middle and the later stages of the war the cost of living went to a very high figure. Commodities were difficult to obtain, and it became necessary in many countries to place land at the disposal of the people who proposed to cultivate that land for their own household needs in one way or another. But for that, in many industrial areas in Ireland and England the cost of living would have been prohibitive. I am supporting this Bill, not merely for all the reasons Deputy Johnson has stated, and which I do not propose to recapitulate, but also for the extra reason that I believe that in addition to all the other benefits the Bill will confer, it will confer the benefit of helping very considerably in enabling people and families in Ireland to find greater opportunities for living within the means they can earn. Deputy Johnson and his seconder, and also Deputy Dr. Hennessy, to some extent, in supporting the general principle, were agreed in regard to its general provisions. I think, having read the Bill carefully, that the general actual detailed provisions are very moderate, and are carefully drafted. I earnestly hope the Government will accept it. We are not now considering the details. The details, if the Bill goes to Committee, can be then amended and brought into general conformity with whatever might or might not be the Ministerial policy in regard to this question. The general principle of the Bill is clearly one, I suggest, that should be adopted by this House, and I hope the Government will adopt it and give it every facility, even going as far as putting it through in the short time between now and the end of the present session.

I rise to support the principle of the Bill introduced by Deputy Johnson. As one who has taken an active interest in the allotment movement for some years past, I am glad to notice that many, in fact all, of the contentious points that usually arise as between plot-holders and local authorities have been covered in the various clauses of the Bill. I hope, if the Minister thinks it necessary to suggest any alterations, they will be very few. I hope the Bill will go through largely as it is now put forward.

I am very largely in agreement with the intentions expressed by Deputy Johnson in his Second Reading speech. On the other hand, I am not at all in agreement with the terms of the Bill. I think it is at least arguable that the terms go very much further than the intentions expressed by Deputy Johnson. I think it is generally agreed that the demand for plots has fallen off. Deputy Johnson has given one explanation. I dare say there is at least something in that explanation; but I do not think it explains the phenomenon entirely. In any case, it is fairly clear that this Bill does not actually meet the existing demand. It is an endeavour to develop a demand for allotments. I think that is the position in regard to the Bill. It is unlike most legislation; it is not meeting an existing demand to any great extent. I think it is common cause that the demand has fallen off. I am afraid the demand has fallen off for reasons—some people say for one reason, other people say for another reason, but the demand has fallen off for a variety of reasons. The object of the Bill is to develop a tendency which, I agree with Deputy Johnson, is desirable, and one that is wholly good for a great many reasons, but the Bill I suggest goes considerably further than Deputy Johnson's Second Reading speech would indicate. It leaves powers to local authorities which he did not intend, or none of us probably contemplated. It should be cleared up at this particular stage.

Sections 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, the first part of the Bill, provide that if a local authority is of opinion that there is a demand for allotments it shall acquire compulsorily, if necessary, either by agreement or by compulsion, either by purchase or hire, any suitable land either within or without its area at such a price as the land shall be worth for allotments. That is really the substance of the first part of the Bill. That analysis I have just stated is couched in very general terms. The terms of the Bill are at least as general. If you analyse it, it comes to this: if a local authority is of opinion that there is a demand for allotments—that is all the Bill says, this is what it comes to. That demand may be very comprehensive or very widespread or very limited. A demand—that is all the Bill says. These are the words of the Bill; these words are implicit in every section, and it is as well at least that that should be pointed out. The demand may be widespread or limited, but if there is a demand for allotments the local authority must acquire land. The local authority has no option in the matter. Not only is the local authority to have compulsory powers, but it must exercise these compulsory powers if there is such an undefined demand as I have just mentioned.

It must be the judge of the demand.

Mr. HOGAN

Let me go on please. Deputy Figgis has said that the local authority must be the judge of the demand. That depends entirely on the wording of the Bill. We must assume that the judges will give effect to the actual wording of the Bill. It can meet that demand by saying: "In fact we are of opinion that there is no demand." At least that is arguable, and I will read the section in a minute. It could meet that point by saying: "We are of opinion that there is no demand." That would be a most unsatisfactory dilemma to find itself in. There is a provision for a public inquiry. Half a dozen or a dozen rated occupiers, ratepayers, who might be rich or poor, who might belong to any class provided they were non-landholders themselves —these are the terms of the Bill—can give evidence at that inquiry that they want plots. Therefore there would be a demand, a demand stated in public, and the local authority would find itself faced with a demand which they would be compelled to carry out if it was legitimate or to meet a possible order of mandamus following such a demand.

If they were not able to meet that demand for any reason, either because they thought it was not a really deserving demand, or for some other reason, they would find themselves in this dilemma, that they would have to say: "We are of opinion that there is no demand." They could meet the case that way probably, within the Bill. That is again a question for the lawyers but it is a most unsatisfactory position for a local authority to find itself in. It is a position that could be very easily righted and it is a difficulty that should be cleared up, and should be cleared up in the Bill itself, such as it is. I will read sub-section (2) of Section 3 of the Bill. I am leaving out sub-section (1) because it does not affect the point:—

If a local authority, either after inquiry made in consequence of a representation under the preceding sub-section, or otherwise, is of opinion that there is a demand for allotments by qualified applicants, the local authority shall acquire any suitable land, which may be available whether within or without its area, adequate to provide a sufficient number of allotments, and shall let such land to qualified persons resident in its area who desire to take such allotments.

There you have an undefined demand. I am putting the interpretation of the man in the street on that particular phrase when I say that demand might be a demand by rich or poor, any class you like provided they are non-landholders or non-land occupiers. There would be no way for the local authority to meet the case except to say in face of the facts at the public inquiry: "There is no public demand." They must acquire it. There is no option. They must acquire any suitable land to meet a demand undefined.

There is nothing in the Bill which makes it clear that land required for dairying purposes or for market-gardening purposes, or even for building purposes, is not suitable land for allotment purposes. These are all technical matters if you like, but they are very important. Nobody desires that this Bill, like the Workmen's Compensation Act, should afterwards be the subject of much litigation, and this is now the place to get over these difficulties. There is nothing in the Bill to show that a judge would not be coerced into saying that such land is suitable for allotments, and must be acquired. There is nothing in the Bill to say that land which will be required for the three purposes I have mentioned, or for lairage purposes, or for any necessary purpose, should not be taken-nothing that I can see. That is the difficulty. Deputies will at least agree with me that that is a thing that is arguable on the face of the Bill, and it is a thing that should not, or need not, be arguable. The local authority must acquire this land suitable for allotments at a price which land is worth for allotment purposes. In other words, it would be compelled to acquire land which might be worth £15 per acre for gardening purposes at, say, £8 for allotments. I think that is clear on the Bill. The only portion that governs it is the sub-section I have read.

Is not the particular sentence that governs that section: "If a local authority is of opinion"? Its opinion is the thing.

Mr. HOGAN

I spent at least two minutes in reading it. I may be wrong in pointing out that an inquiry will take place, that the words of the section are: "On a representation being made in writing to a local authority by any six registered Dáil electors." You can change that six to any number you like. You can make it twelve, fifteen, or twenty, and it makes no real difference. These twelve or twenty electors, be they rich or poor, workmen or professional men, shopkeepers, or any class you like, make a demand for allotments. An inquiry is held on the demand of these six or twelve electors. They state: "We require these allotments. We are non-land occupiers, and we demand them." The local authority is forced into the dilemma of taking up the position which Deputy Figgis now expressed, and to say, "No, there is no demand." They would probably be able to get out of it in that way, but it would be an extraordinary state of affairs, in view of the wording of the Bill, which states, "if there is a demand." That is a point that could be argued about, and that should be made clear.

But what must be made clear also is, that it may take other factors into consideration as well as the mere demand, even a genuine demand, for land, because it is on the line of the lesser of the two evils the local authority must proceed. It must take into consideration what land was available, whether, in fact, the land was suitable, and whether it was not more useful for any of the other purposes which I have mentioned. That is not made clear at all. Undoubtedly, dairy land would be suitable land for allotments. There are large areas of land which would be suitable for building, and which might also be worked as market gardens, and yet be suitable for allotments. All that would have to be cleared up. These matters are not clear in this Bill. There is no reason whatever why we should argue over this, because Deputy Johnson has largely expressed my view. All I would say is that Section 3 of the Bill goes a long way. It leaves loopholes to local authorities to go very much further than ever was intended. Section 3, in my opinion, would have to be completely re-drafted, because practically all the other sections depend upon it.

The Minister need only refer to Sections 18 and 19 to see that Section 3 depends on them as regards the acquisition of land.

Mr. HOGAN

Section 18 says:—

A local authority may acquire land for the purposes of this Act—

(a) by purchase or lease by agreement; or

(b) by compulsory acquisition by purchase or lease; or

(c) by purchase from the Land Commission under the Land Act, 1923; or

(d) by purchase from the Land Commission by the local authority as trustees in accordance with Section 4 of the Irish Land Act, 1903, and Sections 31 and 69 of the Land Act, 1923.

Will the Minister refer to sub-section (1) of Section 19?

Mr. HOGAN

Yes, that sub-section reads:—

(1) The provisions of Section 68 and the sixth Schedule of the Local Government Act, 1925, shall apply to the compulsory acquisition of land for the purposes of this Act by a local authority.

I would be glad if the Deputy would explain that.

The Minister points to the possibility of acquiring dairy land, for instance, and says that you cannot acquire dairy land except by following the provisions of Section 68 of the Local Government Act of 1925. That means the holding of an inquiry, the fixing of a fair price as the compensation to be paid, and provides for the furnishing of any other particulars that may be required for what you are defining. Whatever charge is alleged against Section 3 of this Bill is applicable to the Local Government Act, for which the Minister for Local Government is responsible.

Mr. HOGAN

Section 68 of the Act to which the Deputy refers provides for procedure only. This is really not a question of procedure.

The compulsory acquisition of land?

Mr. HOGAN

That is it exactly, the steps to be taken to acquire the land.

And the fixing of a fair price?

Mr. HOGAN

Yes. I am speaking now of what happens before the decision to acquire the land is come to, or before they have adopted the procedure set out in Section 19. Under Section 3, I think it is clear enough— at least it is arguable—that if there is any demand they must acquire any land which is suitable for allotments despite whatever other purpose it may be useful for. They cannot acquire that land on that sort of an indefinite demand—at the price which the land is worth for allotments. I do not think that Section 68 affects my point. I say that is the position under Section 3, and that is the position that is implicit in the whole of the first part of the Bill.

I agree with Deputy Johnson that the plot-holding movement is a desirable one, and one that should be encouraged. It is one that certainly has most of the substantial educational advantages which he has dilated upon, and most of the substantial material advantages which he dwelt upon from the point of view of the poorer people engaged at work in towns and cities. What surprises me is that more advantage was not taken of the allotments which were available in, say, the years 1920, 1921 and 1922, and even earlier. I would be anxious, and everyone on this side of the House would be anxious that that particular tendency should be encouraged. I realise that you are before your time in this Bill, and that you are attempting in this Bill to develop a tendency which is not very strong at the moment. I hope the effect of a proper allotments Bill would be to encourage that tendency. I suggest, too, that any allotments Bill which is introduced will have to make it clear that land may be acquired even if by compulsion if necessary—that is to say, either by agreement or by compulsion, by the local authority for suitable applicants to be defined, and at a price which will cover all outgoings except perhaps procedure. That was Deputy Johnson's point of view, but I say it is not there in this Bill. This Bill, perhaps, goes a long way further, and would have to be amended. Practically every section would need to be changed.

I think that a Bill of the sort I have outlined could be introduced, and that it would go some distance in any event to meet the case put up. I agree that this is not a particularly easy problem to solve, in view of other demands which must be taken into account; demands for dairy lands, for market gardening, and for lairage accommodation. I want to stress that word "lairage" because of the fact that we do a big export trade in cattle, and we must always have accommodation land for the purposes of that trade which is the most important trade in this country. No one wants, on the other hand, to take advantage of that necessity, or to cheat the allotment holders' movement out of what it should have in equity, but it is in order to reconcile these two conflicting interests that I suggest that the Bill will require to be redrafted with extreme care and in a different form to the Bill which we have before us.

With regard to the question as to who should be the controlling authority for a measure of this kind, I suggest it could not possibly be the Ministry of Agriculture. I say that for this reason, that the procedure under it will entail inquiries, orders, schemes, and so on, somewhat similar to the procedure adopted in connection with the Labourers' Acts and other Acts administered by the Department of Local Government and Public Health. That Ministry has got a staff to deal with that kind of procedure. I am speaking now of the acquisition and the division of lands, and I say that is a thing that we could not go into. If we were to go into it, it would mean a duplication of functions, because from the very nature of the case what we did in a matter of that kind would have to be duplicated by the Ministry of Local Government. I put it to Deputies that they would be doing the Ministry of Agriculture a very bad turn if, at this stage, they were to expect it to do the work of that kind. At one time the Ministry did undertake work of that kind, but that was for a particular emergency during the war.

The functions of the Ministry of Agriculture are really educational and technical, and I do not think it would be doing it a good turn to ask it to but into the vexed questions of the acquisition and the division of lands. The Ministry has to give technical advice and assistance to all sorts and conditions of land-holders. The functions of the Ministry of Agriculture are to advise existing landholders, whether farmers or horticulturists. When there is an Allotments Bill passed, and an allotment movement developed under that Bill, then it will be for the Department of Agriculture to give its advice and its assistance to the allotment holders. Deputy Johnson referred to the horticultural instructors. When the allotment movement is developed, the horticultural instructors will, of course, be at the disposal of the allotment holders.

With regard to the Land Commission, their functions are for a special purpose, and should stop, I suppose, except for collection purposes that are going on, when land purchase is completed; but the real point is this: Is there any more reason why the Local Government Ministry should not administer this Bill than there is for transferring any other function of the Local Government Ministry to the Department of Agriculture? Perhaps this may not be actually in point, but I did not like to hear Deputy Hennessy giving advice to people who were to enjoy common pasture not to buy any dairy shorthorns for fear of tuberculosis. I want to say that our dairy shorthorns have far and away a less percentage of tuberculosis than any other breed, and that the percentage of tuberculosis is much lower among Irish dairy shorthorns than among any other shorthorns in any other country, including that of Scotland.

On one other point, that is as to fixity of tenure, I agree that the plot-holder must realise that when he comes into possession of his plot and puts his manure and seeds into it he must be perfectly certain that he is to have that crop, or that if he does not he must get the fullest compensation. I am entirely with Deputy Johnson in what he says, so far as that is concerned, but, on the other hand, there should be nothing else in the way of fixity of tenure. There should be nothing like getting fee-simple title or judicial tenure of the land.

There is nothing in the Bill to that effect.

Mr. HOGAN

I know there is not. With regard to common pasture, what applies to any plot-holder applies, with probably more force, to common pasture. This question is treated here by merely saying that all the considerations, mutatis mutandis applying to allotments should apply to common pasture. All the difficulties inherent in the Bill in connection with allotments are very much stronger when applied to common pasture. These particular points must be cleared up, and could not be cleared up by mere amendments of the Bill.

I would draw the Minister's attention to the fact that there have been constituents of mine, labourers and workers generally, who have cows and cannot get any grazing, simply because the ranchers will not give them any grass for their cows.

Mr. HOGAN

On a point of order, how does that arise out of anything I have just said?

It arises in this way, that the workers with cows should be qualified applicants for common pasture.

Mr. HOGAN

Who says that they should not?

You said earlier that the applicants might be rich men or poor men, but these are men with their cows and they want to provide milk for their own families.

I do not think it is necessary for me to say very much after the speech made by the Minister for Lands and Agriculture. The House seems to be in general agreement with Deputy Johnson, and the main provisions of the Bill he has introduced. I am not going to go into any minute details of it. We are all in favour of the general principles of allotments. From the educational point of view and from the health point of view, and from various other points of view, they are worthy of every commendation. There have been some statements made here which I do not believe are true in all respects. I do not believe that it will reduce the cost of living by anything worth speaking about to have this Allotments Bill put into operation. It is well known to everybody that the cost of producing food is quite cheap at the present time, that is that food is produced cheaply on the farm. It is the cost of distribution that makes it so dear in the cities and the towns.

Deputy Nagle has set up the tenants of labourers' cottages as examples of what might occur when allotments are given to people in towns and cities, but I am afraid they are a bad example. My experience of the dwellers of labourers' cottages is that for the most part they leave their plots sadly neglected.

Is the Minister's experience personal experience, or is he taking his experience from the reports of his officials?

I am speaking from personal observation. At all events, there is no doubt that the demand for plots has gone down considerably in the country. The returns show that it has fallen 38 per cent. since 1923, and that tendency seems to be on the increase rather than otherwise. But, as the Minister for Lands and Agriculture has pointed out, that is no reason why we should not do something to foster the development of such an admirable idea. I do not believe that the labourers will take advantage of an Act such as this Bill would be if it were passed. In the past it was mostly civil servants and people of the middle class, who took advantage of the present Acts, and that is most likely the class of people that will avail of such opportunities in the future.

The great objection, of course, to accepting the Bill before the House has been pointed out by the Minister for Agriculture. Deputy Johnson dwelt at length on Sections 1, 2 and 4 of the Bill, but he gave very little information about Section 3. I do not believe it was intentional but, as a matter of fact, there is no protection at all for the property owner in the Bill as drafted. The land may be acquired and it may be compensated for only at the value of the land as plots, not taking into consideration that it may be worth a great deal more as land for building sites or market gardens, or if used for any other purposes. If the property owner was to be adequately protected there should be some such clause in the Bill as that land taken for the purposes of the Act must be acquired by the local authority in like manner as land taken for the purposes of Part 3 of the Housing of the Working Classes Act of 1890.

Deputy Johnson referred to Section 68 of the Local Government Act. But that, as the Minister for Lands and Agriculture pointed out, only deals with the provisional order. The section in the Act says:—

(1) Any provisional order made by the Minister under the provisions of the Public Health (Ireland) Acts, 1878 to 1919, or of Section 10 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, after the holding of such an inquiry as is mentioned in sub-section (4) of Section 203 of the Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878, empowering a local authority to acquire land or other property or rights otherwise than by agreement may be confirmed by the Minister, or the Circuit Court in accordance with the Rules set out in the Sixth Schedule to this Act.

The object really is to give the Minister the power to make an Order without having to lay it on the Table of the House, but any act taken would have to be done under some other statutory authority and for the purposes of this Act the proper statute to work under would be the Housing of the Working Classes Act of 1890.

There is another matter, and that is that there is no limit to the length of time for which the land may be acquired. I suggest a limit of probably about 5 years should be the length of time for the land to be acquired for this purpose. These and various other little minor imperfections, running through the whole body of the Bill, would make it rather difficult for us to amend it on the Committee Stage. I suggest to Deputy Johnson that it would be better for him to withdraw the Bill, and allow us to introduce a Bill embodying the same principles, but more in accordance with former statutes, and I undertake to introduce such a Bill. I am not going to undertake when the Bill will be passed. That would depend on its passage through this House and through the Seanad, but early next session I will undertake to have such a Bill introduced.

I regret I cannot agree with the statement of the Minister for Local Government relative to the neglected state of the plots belonging to labourers' cottages throughout the country. I find it very different in my own part of the country. These cottages and plots are an actual education to many people. The greatest keenness for prizes prevails in these competitions amongst labourers. Their plots are certainly a credit to themselves and to their families. Many of them produce an amount of food that one would scarcely expect to get out of such a small quantity of land. In those times of stress and unemployment they serve as a great aid to keep those large families. In my part of the country, some competitions were got up many years ago. Those still continue. The County Committee of Agriculture also have competitions, and there is very great keenness amongst the competitors. In the four districts in my county the labourers go in a good deal for these prizes. I do not know whether this may be the means of keeping their cottages and plots in such a neat condition or not. At any rate, the fact is there that there are no such well-kept houses even amongst the small or large farmers, as those labourers' cottages in the County Wexford.

Like the other Deputies who have spoken on this matter I am entirely in agreement with the principle of allotments. For twenty years I went, every year, to England for four months, and lived in a place outside York. Next to me there was a very large allotment. It had originally been what we call a "grazing ranch" here. The owner thought it would be a good thing to offer it for allotment. He did so with great success, and it was largely taken up by men in the railway works at York. It was an education to see those people in the evening working at their allotments and their small greenhouses, and that sort of thing. They brought out their children with them. I think it was a sight that anybody would approve of. I was very much impressed by it, at all events. But this particular allotment, and, indeed, any allotment that I know of in connection with the towns, are mostly run by allotment associations, and they are not brought under the control of any local body. In that way they seem to work very well. Of course, it is mostly the older people who use them. I did not see many of the younger men or women coming out. It was mostly the older people, who bring out their small children. I think it would be the same here. I do not know how it affects Dublin, or whether there would be a great demand for these allotments here. I agree, to a great extent, with what the Minister for Local Government says, that a lot of plots under the Labourers' Acts are neglected. Some are beautifully kept, and it would delight a horticulturist to see how carefully the tenants cultivate these plots. I am afraid that in my district, however, the majority of the plots are not well kept, and a great many of them are neglected.

Are they worse than the farms?

Yes. There are also some villages where the cottages have gardens attached to them, and the tenants do not take the trouble to work them at all. That is beyond yea or nay in the case of some villages. With regard to the largest town in my district, I know there are allotment gardens run in connection with the Technical School, and they are very well kept. These are more or less instruction plots. But there has never been any great demand for any more of these plots. If there had been such a demand one would have heard it. The demand would have made itself felt. I do not think there would have been very much difficulty at the time these allotments were taken in Naas in getting additional plots if the demand had been pressed.

As regards the principle, of course, it is an excellent principle, and one that should be aided in every way. But I am not in favour of the local authority, which is already overburdened, taking up the management of these allotments. I think they should be run entirely by a local association. That would be much more satisfactory. In this Bill the principle of sub-letting is not done away with. To my mind, sub-letting is a very bad thing to enter into any of these agreements. Section 7 of the Bill says an allotment shall not be sub-let except with consent. That does not do away with it. I think sub-letting ought be prohibited absolutely. Sub-letting is most detrimental to any of these holdings. With regard to the matter of common pasturage, I think that is a most important matter. In most of the villages with which I come in touch, people who have cows can generally put them out for the summer or winter on their neighbour's land. As far as I know, that is possible.

Where is the Minister for Justice?

There is a cheaper plan for grazing cattle than taking land like that. In a couple of villages in Yorkshire my experience is that up to five years ago they had a custom there by which the villagers used graze their cows along the bye-roads between the hours of eight o'clock in the morning and five in the afternoon. The cattle used be under the care of an old man, generally an old age pensioner. If you go round the Yorkshire villages you will see those cows under the care of some old man. This is allowed by the District Council, and it is a great benefit to the people concerned. They pay nothing for it except what is paid to the old man who looks after the cattle. That custom seemed to work extremely well. Without doubt, it was a great benefit to the people. I think it would be well worth while considering it here. We have certain bye-roads in the country, around the villages, where there are broad grass stretches, and where the cattle might be grazed if they were under proper control. That would be a different matter to having them running about, as they are now, without anybody in control of them. It is a different thing if there is somebody to look after them, to see that no accident happens, and that the cows are brought home at the proper time. I think that is a matter that might be considered.

As far as I am concerned, I think that making the Local Government Authority the body to whom this work would be entrusted would be unworkable. The additional burden would be too much, and, for that reason, I hope that some other measure, which will be clearer and more suited than this, will be brought before the Dáil. I hope that such a Bill will be brought in soon. I believe the principle of allotments is an excellent one, if we can only get the people to take it up. Perhaps when it becomes an established thing, and when it will be possible for the people to have these allotments, they will become more popular. I am sorry that at present they are not popular.

I suppose it would be thought that I should oppose the Bill on account of the source from which it emanates. I might, at any rate, be excused for looking upon it with a good deal of suspicion. But I endorse the principle embodied in the Bill. The drafting, I think, could be improved, and it would be better, too, if the Bill were brought in under the auspices of the Government, after the consideration it will receive, in the first instance, because at present it contains some anomalies. Sub-section (2) of Clause 3, for instance, empowers a local authority to go outside its district. That is introducing a new principle. It might prove very far-reaching and it would require many safeguards. There should, too, be provisions introduced which would afford a reasonable amount of protection for the people whose land is going to be taken and in connection with the proper carrying out of the aims of the Bill. I do not suggest at all that the Bill does not purport to do that at present. Although it emanates from the Labour benches there is nothing Bolshevist about the measure. Some Deputies have said that the demand for allotments has seriously fallen away. I think that is the case. Where allotments would confer the greatest benefit, it is most difficult to provide them—that is, for the workers in the centre of the city. You cannot get ground for allotments anywhere near the centre of the city.

What about Upper O'Connell Street?

You might do a little grazing there but I do not know that there is much room for allotments. If the workers living in the centre of the city could be induced to go out into the country and do a certain amount of gardening on their own allotments, it would add a great pleasure to their lives. But the difficulties are greater in their case than in the case of workers in urban or rural areas, where land is more easily got. The Minister for Lands and Agriculture and the Minister for Local Government have suggested that the promoter of this Bill should agree to their bringing in a Bill next session instead of it. I rise merely to remove any misapprehension there might be so far as my attitude to the Bill is concerned. So far as I am concerned, and so far as those whom I am supposed to represent are concerned, the principle of the Bill would be heartily welcome.

I welcome that portion of the Bill which deals with genuine workers in the cities. But the promoter of this Bill does not specify who is to get the plots. Any resident of a city or urban area will be entitled to make a claim to a plot. The reason, more or less, that I stand up to welcome this Bill is because it does away with the idea we heard so much about during the past five weeks—protecting the home market. The home market will disappear altogether if this Bill is worked to its fullest extent. Citizens of the towns will be able to supply their own requirements from their own plots. They will be able to supply their own vegetables and their own milk and, when they get the half rood the Minister spoke of last week to grow their own wheat, there will be nothing left for the people of the country to supply at all. For that reason I welcome the Bill. I rise, also, to sympathise with Deputy Doctor Hennessy on his unfortunate experiences. He is unfortunate in his cows, unfortunate in his butter and unfortunate in his friends. I think he told us that the reason some of his friends went on public boards was to pass on a claim for a cottage on their lands to somebody else. One must sympathise with a man of that upbringing, living in an atmosphere of that description. The Deputy also talked about the peculiar tubercular tendencies of dairy Shorthorns. A short time ago he gave us a lecture on the gross impurity of Irish butter, in the condition it was put on the market and, at the same time, he spoke of the perfections of "Glaxo." I do not know if he is an agent for "Glaxo" or not. I think he is very unfortunate in his experience of cows.

And in his political associations.

Perhaps they are like the rest.

Deputy Gorey, I think, is going outside the scope of the Bill.

Thank you. Unless people want plots there is no use in providing them. People whom I came in contact with in connection with these plots said it was scarcely worth while. This new land is all right for a few years, but after a few years it has got to be manured. The cost of getting manure and carting it to the plot makes the working of the plot hardly worth while. There are a lot of aspects of this question that would require consideration. There is no use in putting people on land and permitting them to crop it until it is worn out, when they will say it is no good. Land can be rendered almost sterile by that treatment. The class of people who have availed of these plots, I think, are not people of the labouring type at all, but civil servants and people with very little to do in the city, who have an income, and who devote their spare time to the plots. Is it to enable these people to spend their leisure time that the plots are to be provided? I do not know what the extent of the incomes of these people is, but are they the class of people for whom the State is called upon to provide plots?

Why not?

If every dweller in the town is going to become his own farmer, we will be making the claim that every dweller in the country will be his own shopkeeper, his own barber, and his own tailor. I would like the Minister to take particular care, in framing the Bill he has alluded to, that the land will not be used for a few years and then abandoned. I do not approve of the compulsory portion of the Bill, which says that the local authority shall acquire land. That wording might create a state of affairs that nobody wants to see. I agree with the idea of the Bill, but, in its present form, I do not think I can support the Bill.

I welcome the Bill, and my only reason for standing up is to remove the idea from Deputies' minds that there is any reduction in the demand for allotments, so far as the city of Dublin workers are concerned. The fact that they want allotments is proof that they are workers. The demand in Dublin is greater than ever. Twelve months or two years ago there were 1,000 allotments in the city of Dublin, and since then, as a result of housing needs, the plot-holders gave up their allotments, and are still anxious to travel, even a distance, if they can get the one-eight of an acre. They say that the one-eight of an acre will provide vegetables for the best part of a year for a family of five. I have had experience of the successful working of the allotment system in Marino, Croydon Park, and in Drumcondra, and anybody who thinks there is no demand for plots, so far as Dublin is concerned, is making a mistake. I say that the demand and the necessity are greater than ever now in view of the unemployment in the city of Dublin. I sincerely hope that the House, if not to-day, will on some future occasion follow the good work started by the introduction of this Bill. Within the past week I received letters from Limerick and Cork, conveying resolutions in support of the Bill. I am aware that there has been an agitation recently in Limerick, where there was an attempt made to evict plot-holders, but they resisted, so far as lay in their power. If this Bill were in operation I am satisfied that the eviction of plot-holders would not take place. It is well to know that so far as the plot-holders in Dublin are concerned, they entered into agreements with the Municipal Council that, should the housing needs necessitate their removal from the land on a suitable housing area, they would be willing at any time to give up their plots, and they did so in more than one place. I hope that Deputies will support the Bill, unless there is some understanding with the Government that they will introduce a measure, that they will not hang it up indefinitely, and that, whatever measure is introduced, will be brought in before the end of the year.

I also rise to support the Bill. I remember a few years ago during the war, near the town that I come from, Fermoy, seeing a lot of labourers and artisans going every evening, and on every other occasion they could, to their plots, tilling their little gardens and cultivating varieties of vegetables for their homes. I think it is very useful to have these plots, and, as Deputy Johnson pointed out when introducing this Bill, they cultivated ideas and habits very quickly about tilling. They provide recreation for tradesmen and other classes in towns and cities. No class should be exempted from these little plots. I am sure that the House will have no hesitation, at least it should not, in passing this Bill.

The experience of this evening leads me to have some sympathy with Ministers when they are introducing measures upon finding that nobody appears to have read them. I had hoped to save the time of the House by going rather sketchily over the provisions of the Bill, but I think I made a mistake and should have exhausted two or three hours by going into every detail and dealing in advance with questions that might arise in the Deputies' minds. That might have been more satisfactory to the prospects of the Bill. There is no suggestion in this Bill of forcing men to till plots. There is no intention of compelling the residents of any urban district, or any borough, or rural district to apply to local councils and for the local councils to throw on these people the duty and obligation of tilling plots. It is a provision that where there is a demand, which is easily ascertainable from qualified persons, it shall be a duty on the local authority to find land for tillage as garden plots. Even then the conditions under which the plot-holders will hold plots are to be fixed by the council, and the fear that only the people with £1,000 a year and upwards may be provided with plots under this Bill, can be guarded against by the local outhority, subject to the sanction of the Ministry. That is provided for in Section 8. The Minister for Lands and Agriculture and the Minister for Local Government seem to have regretted that we did not put Sections 18 and 19 where Section 3 is. I have no hesitation in saying that the Minister for Lands and Agriculture did not read this Bill half as carefully as he would have done if it had been presented by a departmental officer, for instance. He would not have suggested that there is any difficulty about obtaining the lands required for these allotments at prices which would make them useful as allotments. In the first instance, the assumption is that the council will obtain lands by purchase, or by agreement under lease, but if it cannot, if it has to use its compulsory powers, it has to go through the process which has been provided in respect of local authorities acquiring land for other purposes. If it has been thought desirable that a local authority should have compulsory powers to acquire land for any reason, certain procedure has been devised, and prices are fixed in accordance with that procedure, and that is the proposal which we made in the Bill, that the provisions in the Local Government Act, 1925, shall apply to lands purchased compulsorily for allotments, just as they apply to land purchased compulsorily for other purposes, and there need not be any fear that the property owners are not going to be duly considered. This is a very conservative Bill, as everyone admitted, and Deputy Hewat might take heart, or, rather, he might not pat himself on the back for magnanimity if he knew that the British Bill, on somewhat similar lines, at present under discussion, was supported by Conservative members and all parties in the British House of Commons, so there is no particular magnanimity on Deputy Hewat's part in supporting this Bill.

It is not correct to suggest that only civil servants and the better-off section of the community are the people engaged in plot-holding in Dublin, or around Dublin, or anywhere else. Plots are held by a proportion of retired civil servants, ex-policemen, ex-soldiers, and the like, but in the main the one thousand plot-holders who are working these plots are workingmen, or are men looking for work. In view of what has been said it is incumbent upon me to defend the plot-holders of Dublin from the suggestion that they have lost heart. In 1923 there were two thousand plot-holders, and as far back as 1919 over three thousand. Of course at that time any dustheap, or any impossible place, was planted, and it is perhaps hardly fair to take that particular year as the criterion. Take 1922-'23, when there were about two thousand in and around Dublin; that number has since been reduced to one thousand. The explanation I have heard is that six large areas which had been in the control of the Department since 1918 were handed back to their owners, thus dispossessing six hundred. That is not the fault of the plot-holders. The owners demanded back the land, which had been acquired under the powers of the Defence of the Realm Act, and the Department thought it was due to the owners that they should have their land back.

Since 1922, Marino, Clontarf, Faireld, Glasnevin, and Donnelly's Orhard in Clonliffe Road have been taken over for building. One area, Church Road, North Strand, was taken over as far back as 1919, and it still remains derelict, with no sign of anything having been done. Two areas in Crumlin Road, Dolphin's Barn, were given back to the owner for building sites in 1922, one of them by the Department of Agriculture, and the other by the Dublin Corporation. These fields are still idle, nothing having been done, and the plot-holders or the people who would have been plot-holders, are still looking for these lands and would be very glad to have them. I was informed about one field that was let to plot-holders; it was taken from them and has since been under corn. It was producing much more food as a garden, and the owner got the advantage of the tillage and manuring during the plot-holding period. Speaking with responsibility and restraint, I have no hesitation in saying on the authority of a considerable number of people that if this Bill were to become law and put into operation by local councils that the one thousand plots held to-day would be multiplied by two next year. The Bill only imposes the obligation to provide plots where they are in demand, and if there are no plots looked for in any part of the country then there is no obligation. The Minister for Agriculture pretends that there is a difficulty in defining what is suitable land for allotments.

Mr. HOGAN

And also finding the demands.

Well, there are six people required to make representations that there is a demand. They may be the people who are demanding, or they may not. They may be the interpreters of the local demand. Then it is for the local authority to satisfy itself that there is a demand, just as it is the duty of the local authority to find that there is a demand for houses, sewage schemes, or anything else the locality requires. It is at least capable of finding out whether there is a sufficient number of people to warrant them in taking an acre of land, and dividing it into thirty or forty plots.

Mr. HOGAN

There is a big difference, that where the preliminary procedure in any of those cases contemplates a demand being made to the local authority, there is a section that usually goes on to say the local authority "may" do this, that or the other thing. Here it says where there is a demand undefined, the local authority "must."

Yes, and I am going to stand by that. The local authority must acquire suitable land which may be available. But there are conditions. The land is not suitable unless the revenue from that as plots is going to cover the cost of the land to the council.

Mr. HOGAN

Where is that in the Bill?

I thought the Minister had not read it.

Mr. HOGAN

I have read every section.

Mr. JOHNSON:

"A local authority shall not, without the consent of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, acquire land for allotments under this Act save at such price or rent that in its opinion all expenses of the council incurred in accordance with the provisions of this Act, other than such expenses as are hereinafter specified, may reasonably be expected, after the proceedings are taken, to be recouped out of the payments obtained in respect thereof.

Mr. HOGAN

In other words, the Bill, as I read it, says that the council must acquire land in the first instance if there is a demand undefined for the land, and having being coerced into acquiring the land must acquire it at the price of its value for allotments regardless of any other special value it may have.

The Council must acquire the land by agreement, and if it cannot acquire it by agreement, it will use its compulsory authority, and in using its compulsory authority the price will be the determining factor. What would determine the price would be the possibility of dividing it for such an annual payment as will reimburse the council.

Mr. HOGAN

That is a difference of opinion.

As I have said, the clauses of the Bill I am speaking on are based on existing enactments, and in the main those particular clauses have been in operation under the Scottish Act for four years, and have not yet, as far as I can gather, caused any difficulty. I am sorry to think that the Minister is still of the opinion he expressed last December and last March. The Minister for Agriculture had a Bill, the drafting of which the Minister for Local Government had something to do with. It ran into sixteen or seventeen sections, in addition to several schedules. He said it was necessary to have a big and comprehensive Bill to deal with the matter. That was in December. We have not seen the Bill yet. Now we have it on the authority of the two Ministers that it will not be a Bill to acquire land compulsorily for allotments when it does come. We have no assurance that it will come, or that it will embody the principles contained in this Bill.

Mr. HOGAN

The Minister for Local Government said specifically that the Bill would take power to acquire land by compulsion, if necessary. I was listening to him. The Minister for Local Government also made it clear that he would take responsibility for the Bill, and I made it quite clear that in my opinion the Department of Agriculture had nothing to do with the matter.

I am sorry I missed the point that the Minister is prepared to embody in any Bill he brings forward the principle of compulsory acquisition for allotments purposes. I am glad to have that.

In addition to the Housing of the Working Classes Act.

I cannot remember what the provisions of that Act are, and I hope that provision is not going to take the gilt off the ginger bread. The Minister for Agriculture is dissatisfied with the provisions of this Bill, which seems to impose dual responsibility. He is Minister for Lands and Agriculture and it is only in respect to the land and cultivation side of this scheme that he is brought into the Bill at all. So far as the administration is concerned, it is the Minister for Local Government who is specified.

Mr. HOGAN

I do not agree. I am afraid that the Deputy does not know his own Bill.

I think that is a fact, if the Minister will look through it.

Mr. HOGAN

Will the Deputy read sub-section 4 of Section 3?

That is dealing with land.

Mr. HOGAN

With the acquisition, not the cultivation.

Not the cultivation, but it deals with land; it does not deal with the procedure in relation to the working and the responsibility of the local authority. However, the question of which Minister is going to be responsible for the administration of the allotments system is a very minor one, and it is not a matter that should cause any contention. I am afraid that the Minister has taken a line which means that there will not be any Bill this side of January next. That is to say, there will not be any Act. There may be a Bill introduced, but I am inclined to think, from the statements of the two Ministers, that while a Bill may be introduced, they are not ready to commit themselves to the acceptance of the principles contained in this Bill. I am rather sorry for that. I hope that whatever happens to the Second Reading of this Bill something will be done, but I ask the Dáil to agree to the Second Reading. It will at least test whether there is genuine approval of the principles contained in the Bill: that local authorities should be given compulsory powers to acquire land; that the plot-holders should have certain security of tenure; that the local authorities should enter into the allotments movement by associating the plot-holders with the administration; and that compensation should be provided if, in any case, a plot-holder is obliged to give up his plot during the growing period. I thank Deputies for the general reception given to the Bill, and I hope that whatever happens as a result of the division, there will be some fruit gathered before the next plotting season comes round.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 11; Níl, 31.

  • John Daly.
  • Darrell Figgis.
  • Séamus Mac Cosgair.
  • Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
  • Tomás de Nógla.
  • Ailfrid O Broin.
  • Tomás O Conaill.
  • Aodh O Cúlacháin.
  • Peadar O Dubhghaill.

Níl

  • Earnán Altún.
  • Pádraig Baxter.
  • Earnán de Blaghd.
  • Seoirse de Bhulbh.
  • Séamus de Burca.
  • Louis J. D'Alton.
  • Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
  • Uí Dhrisceóil.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • John Good.
  • William Hewat.
  • Patrick Leonard.
  • Liam Mac Cosgair.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Liam Mac Sioghaird.
  • Liam Mag Aonghusa.
  • Patrick J. Mulvany.
  • John T. Nolan.
  • Peadar O hAodha.
  • Mícheál O hAonghusa.
  • Máirtín O Conalláin.
  • Séamus O Dóláin.
  • Mícheál O Dubhghaill.
  • Donnchadh O Guaire.
  • Aindriú O Láimhín.
  • Séamus O Leadáin.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
  • Seán O Súilleabháin.
  • Mícheál O Tighearnaigh.
  • Caoimhghín O hUigín.
  • Liam Thrift.
  • Nicholas Wall.
Tellers.—Tá: Tomás O Conaill, Tomás de Nógla. Níl: Séamus O Dóláin, Liam Mac Sioghaird.
Motion declared lost.
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