On sub-head (g) (2) I wish to point out that we have not before us the total expenditure under this sub-head last year and this year, so that we are not in a position to make a comparison. I think the Minister gave us to understand that there is an increase of £2,000.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. VOTE 48.—DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE (RESUMED).
Mr. HOGAN
About.
If there is any sub-head in any of the estimates where there is a necessity for a very considerable increase in expenditure, it is on this sub-head. We have passed a Dairy Produce Act, and the Minister has pointed out the benefits which should come to us in time through the operation of that Act. I think the Minister will agree that its operation, while it may increase the value of the butter we have to sell, will not tend to increase the quantity produced. While the operation of the Act may, on an extravagant estimate, increase the value of our butter by £250,000, it will not increase the quantity sold. The Minister will not have gone half way towards getting the best results from the dairying branch of our agricultural industry if the whole question of increasing the supply of milk from our cows is not seriously tackled. Undoubtedly, in some parts of the country the farmers have done very well indeed. Of their own volition very largely, they have got together and established cow-testing associations and raised the standard of the milk yield by 100 or 200 gallons per year. But the Minister is aware that over a very considerable part of the country nothing has been done and nothing is being done — at least very little. Efforts so far have failed to bring many farmers into the cow-testing associations. This problem must be tackled very seriously, and not in the spasmodic way it is being dealt with at present by which, if a number of farmers come together and decide to establish an association, a man is sent down from the Department and operates over an area covering three or four counties, giving assistance in starting the associations. If the farmers themselves do not come together to start an association, then nothing is done. That will have to be changed, and better and more concentrated efforts will have to be made.
Deputies who come from counties where these associations are a real live part of the farmers' organisations, appreciate the fact that these societies did very much to bring into existence other societies. But, there are whole areas of the country where these societies are not in existence. In these districts, farmers will have to be educated into the value of them, if we expect to raise the standard of our milking cows by the two or three hundred gallons which, it is argued, is possible. If somebody does not take the responsibility of tackling this matter in a business way, and if a concentrated effort is not made, the milk yield is not going to be increased. One man operating over three or four counties, where the farmers have sufficient spirit to form such associations, is not sufficient, and we will have to wait for many years before the best results are produced by our dairying industry if the Department does not take this matter in hands.
The Minister may ask why the farmers do not come together, and why Farmer Deputies do not do more in the matter. Some of the Farmer Deputies have done their best. They may not have sufficient time to do it, and there are other reasons operating against it. If the Department have not sufficient men capable of doing this work, a good deal of the time of the county instructors ought to be devoted to the establishment of those societies. You would want a man resident in each county to do the work that is necessary. If you take a parish with four or five hundred small farmers, having three or four cows each, or perhaps the biggest of them with seven or eight cows, it will be appreciated the amount of work that would have to be done in a district like that.
The Minister will also have to consider a reduction in the number of cows necessary for the formation of such a society. The matter is simple where there is a number of farmers with 30 or 40 cows each, but it is very difficult where you have to get perhaps 100 farmers together in order to establish a society. If the number required for such a purpose is not reduced, it will be an absolute bar to the establishment of such associations. When we take into consideration what the Dairy Produce Act is intended to do, the arguments of the Minister as to the money that will come to the farmers through its operation, and the very considerable sum that can be produced by increasing the milk yield and the quantity of butter exported, we can see how important it is that a very vigorous effort should be made to accomplish that end. If we allow things to drift, and leave it to the farmers themselves to start the associations before anything is done, then I am afraid the Dairy Produce Act will not produce the benefits it would if, in conjunction with the operations of the Act, the Department were to concentrate on the establishment, in the dairying counties at least of as many cow-testing associations as possible. Two things are necessary. The first is to make it possible to establish associations with a smaller number of cows than heretofore in counties where you have small farmers. The other is that it is necessary to have a larger number of men engaged in the work of bringing these societies into existence, either by adding to the number of those presently engaged in the work, or by diverting the county instructors from some of the work they are doing at present. Whoever is responsible for doing the work, the work is there to be done, and no work that the Department can take upon itself to perform will pay the country better.
I wish to support Deputy Baxter in this matter. I know many districts where there are cow-testing associations, but, unfortunately, the example of progressive farmers has not been followed by a great many other farmers. Some of those who objected in my district to these associations now approve of them, and they are getting 700 gallons of milk where previously they got 400 gallons. It is a pity the records of some small farmers who test their cattle and who milk four cows, could not be put before those who are not members of cow-testing associations. In order to carry out what Deputy Baxter suggests, I think the best method would be, when taking over ranches that are now being taken all over the country, that a county instructor should go and reside on the land, where he would supervise a bunch of cattle. That would be an example to those in the locality. The instructor is paid by the Department, and if he was put in charge in one of these branches such a place might be worked by him and made self-supporting. The instructor, being in charge, could supervise the milking and other farm occupations, and the people in the locality would see how he carried on the work. In the larger counties there should be three farms of that kind if the farmers are to be interested. The difficulty has been to get farmers to follow certain methods, but if these places were near them, they could go to them and see how the work was done. A project of that kind was suggested fifteen years ago, but it fell through owing to the difficulty of purchasing the place.
The soil is not alike in any two counties. Land that would be suitable for the feeding of cattle in one county would be altogether unsuitable in another county, and would give different results. That would be so in counties like Wexford and Limerick, and also in North Tipperary and South Tipperary. If you had farms such as I have suggested, and if the returns of the milk yield of the cattle were kept carefully and placed before the farmers, they would form an object lesson, not only for the breeding but the milking and the mating of cattle. The results would make it possible to arrive at conclusions which would make for securing the maximum quantity of milk and, if possible, the greatest amount of butter. In other words, you would have profitable cattle instead of many that are now unprofitable. I think if the Department undertakes the development of cow-testing associations, that is all Deputy Baxter wants. The methods to be pursued lie with the Department. I know men who have successfully followed these methods on certain farms. If even small herds of cattle were available on places such as I have suggested, and if the balance-sheet was placed before the people of the district at the end of each year, it would have a very good effect.
I wish to support Deputy Baxter and Deputy D'Alton in the views they have expressed concerning this part of the Vote. This is probably the most important matter that comes under the purview of the Department of Agriculture, as on the success of the cow-testing associations depends, to a great extent, the future of agriculture in Ireland. Despite the efforts that have been made to extend cow-testing, it is a fact that such work has not taken on as well as it should. The work is gaining ground, but it is gaining ground slowly. It is for the Dáil and for the Minister to try and devise some means by which greater progress will be made, in the establishment of these associations. It is difficult to say what are the best means for increasing such associations and to get farmers to take a greater interest in them than they have hitherto done.
In my opinion, any farmer who keeps milch cows should practice cow-testing. Any farmer who does not test his cows is not doing his full work as a farmer and is not justifying his existence, providing he has the opportunity of testing the cows. Very often the difficulty is, that the opportunity is not there, as unless a farmer can get a number of others in the same district to join with him, he is deprived of that advantage unless he decides to carry on the work on his own account. Such a farmer cannot get the benefits of the cow-testing scheme. Owing to slackness or carelessness on the part of farmers in the district in which I reside, and the difficulty in getting capable supervisors or men who will carry out the work properly, the association there fell through. It is hard to find a remedy for the present state of affairs.
I agree that this matter is as much for the farmer as for the Department. If farmers will not learn to help themselves they hardly deserve very much sympathy. Something might be done to extend cow-testing by propaganda and by the spread of information as to the advantages of it. That work might be usefully undertaken by the Department. Literature in connection with it has not, I think, been sufficiently circulated. I would also suggest that special lecturers might be sent to country districts, and that lectures should be given by them and be well advertised. Posters should be put up so that the people would know. I am not sure that suitable films could not be provided. It is rather difficult to see how films could be provided to show the benefits of cow-testing, but they can be provided to show the benefits of improved dairying and creamery methods, and one thing hangs upon the other. Lectures showing improvements in dairying methods would induce farmers to become members of the association. I have seen in Wembley in the New Zealand Pavilion, excellent films showing the work carried out on farms in connection with all kinds of agricultural produce, milk, meat, butter and so forth, produced in New Zealand. It was the finest possible advertisement for that country as an agricultural-producing country for the people in England. It was a pleasure to see the clean system and up-to-date methods used in that country.
I suggest that something of that kind might be introduced here for the purpose of educating our farmers. It is my belief that practically the whole future of agriculture depends upon the success of the cow-testing associations, because upon them hangs the milk production, the butter production, and, I would be inclined to say, the cattle production of the future. I think a difficulty arises in regard to supervising. The local inspectors, or those in charge of a county, very often find it very hard to get suitable supervisors, men capable and willing to do work. I spoke about this last year, but I do not know if any remedy has been put in force. So far as I know, the supervisor who has to deal with poor districts is not as well paid as the supervisor in a rich district. It may happen in some dairying parts of the county that a supervisor will get the number of cows necessary for his particular area within a very small radius, whereas in other parts of the country, where the herds are widely scattered and where milk production is not of the first importance, he will have to cover a large area to earn his salary. I would suggest to the Minister that something might be done in the way of providing additional grants in support of the salaries of those who have to travel longer distances and work harder to earn their salaries. I would emphasise the necessity of bringing this subject before the people and keeping it before the people. If farmers will take to this, as they ought to, and if they can be persuaded to establish a cow-testing association in every district, I see no reason why in course of time the milk yield of cows should not be greatly increased. I should not wonder if we increased it by 200 gallons in a number of years. Not in three years, as I think the Minister for Agriculture said.
Mr. HOGAN
I said 100 gallons in three years.
One hundred gallons in three years is perhaps closer and a reasonable estimate. You can reasonably increase the number of herds and weed out the bad cows. You will have fewer cattle, but you will thereby increase the yield of the herds. Taking the country as a whole, though you may weed out in the course of time a number of defective and badly-yielding cows, there may be no substitutes for some time, as there will be a shortage of good cows. Even by weeding out, perhaps 25 per cent. bad cows, the farmers, in the meantime, before they can replace these cows, will be making more money on the limited number of good cows than on the larger number of bad ones. I would like the Minister to go into this particular item, and give us his views upon it and his intentions with regard to it in the future.
Mr. HOGAN
I need not say that I agree with the substance of Deputy Baxter's and Deputy Heffernan's speeches so far as they referred to the importance and value to the country of increasing the supply of milk. I have gone into the figures in that regard in the Dáil on a few occasions, and have quoted figures which were practically the same as those quoted by Deputy Heffernan, and I notice that Deputy Heffernan and Deputy Baxter agree with me that, with any sort of organisation, or co-operation between the Government and the farmers you would be in a fair way to increase the milk yield by 100 gallons in three years. It would take a considerable time to increase it to 200 gallons. Is it realised that that is worth £3,000,000 at 7d. a gallon? Used for any purpose, that milk is worth £3,000,000. We are all agreed, apparently, that it would be of the greatest importance to farmers if that ambition could be reached within three years. We are agreed, apparently, that it would probably be one of the most substantial ways in which our farming could be improved. The results of attempting to grade up our cows and get more milk from the same animals, with the same feeding, would enrich the farmers much more effectively than anything we could do by way of direct grants. I take it that that is the point of view expressed this evening. I am not saying that it has not been expressed before on the Farmers' Benches. To arrive at what the State has done in this direction you have to take into account not only the figures which Deputy Baxter quoted, and also the measures which he quoted, but you have further to take into account additional figures and measures. I have been trying to calculate what exactly the State has spent on this and kindred developments, and what exactly the farmers have spent and are spending, so far as we know, on the same thing. It is almost impossible to give these figures in connection with cow-testing alone. If you take the figures given in Sub-head G (2) and couple them with those in connection with live-stock, you will get a general picture. Couple with that item the work which the Department is doing in the counties generally, and calculate how much of that the State is providing and how much the farmers are providing, and you will get a complete picture of the situation. I agree that these figures do not refer specifically to the point which Deputy Baxter raised, but they include that point. Deputies, realising that we are dealing with live-stock as well as with an improved milk-yield, can easily get an approximate idea of how much goes to each. Under Sub-head G (2) there is a sum of £18,250, under Sub-head G (3) £5,150, and in G (4) there is a sum of £58,000, which is paid to the county committees of agriculture. In H (2) there is a sum of £32,000. Then you have a payment by the Department of Agriculture for services which they carry out in congested districts, and which are mainly for the improvement of live-stock, principally dairy cattle. That amounts to £27,000. Add to that £20,000 the net cost of the Dairy Produce Act, referred to by Deputy Baxter, and again add the net cost of the Live Stock Breeding Act. Deputy Baxter rightly pointed out that the Dairy Produce Act will improve the quality and, only, indirectly the quantity. I think that will be an inducement to the farmers to improve their milk yield. In the main it will improve the quality of butter. The operations of the Live Stock Breeding Act will obviously improve the quantity. That comes to £3,000, and if you add that you will get a total, I think, of £163,000. In connection with these services farmers will put up about £30,000, as against about £90,000 paid for county work by the Department.
Farmers will put up, I think, for cow-testing associations about £6,000. That is £36,000. I think the figures on one side of the table are plain enough. That is the figures of the payments which the Department makes. I now delay to explain the other figures. Take the £30,000. That is the contribution made from the rates by striking a rate of 1d. or 2d. or whatever sum it may be on agricultural land by county councils for the benefit of the county committees of agriculture. That is the contribution made by the rates for the Free State for the county committees, the figures are:—Sub-head (H) (1), £58,000, and sub-head (H) (2) £32,000. That gives a sum of £90,000. In another sub-head, dealing with the Diseases of Animals Act, there is a sum of £5,000. That is £95,000. That is approximately the money supplied by the Department for the county committees of agriculture. The rate last year amounted to £30,000, and this year's rate will be very close to it. The rate struck in the whole Free State by the county councils on behalf of the county committees of agriculture for the purposes of their schemes, amounted to £30,000.
Did that apply only to agricultural schemes or to technical schemes as well?
Mr. HOGAN
Only to agricultural schemes. The rate struck was £30,000. That was the contribution of the county committees of agriculture towards the joint funds which these committees have to administer. That explains the £30,000. Then you have Cow-Testing Associations, £8,300. The scheme provides that for every 3s. provided by the farmers who are members of an association, the State will provide 4s. That is for the specific purpose of cow-testing and increasing the supply of milk which, we are all agreed, is going to be a tremendous advantage if developed. I am confident that on that basis £8,300 will be sufficient to meet the actual demands of the cow-testing associations on the lines of 3s. to 4s. If you multiply by three and divide by four, you will get £6,000 odd, and that is the contribution put up by farmers for cow-testing. I have left out of account certain items on the other side of the account. I have left out certain expenses contained under sub-head (A) for officers, whose sole work is in connection with live-stock and live-stock breeding. The fact of the matter is that this year the State will be providing directly from taxation for these schemes something like £163,000, and the farmers will provide £30,000 from the rates and £66,000 by way of contributions.
Did the Minister take into account the appropriations-in-aid?
Mr. HOGAN
I do not think that the appropriations-in-aid affect that particular figure.
Have you taken into account the operations of the Live Stock and the Dairy Produce Acts?
Mr. HOGAN
I have. What is probably misleading the Deputy is that in the agriculture produce sub-head (01), the Dairy Produce Act (0.2), and the Live Stock Act (N.4), you get certain expenses £8,225. You must add the extra cost of the clerical staff which does not appear there. The staff consists of 20 inspectors and 15 assistant inspectors. To that you must add the cost of the extra clerical staff required. I have the figures here. That is the figure which I quoted as the net cost after deducting the appropriations-in-aid, which, I think, come to £2,240. I have taken the appropriations-in-aid into account. The State is putting up for that purpose, and generally for the improvement of live stock, and for instruction under county committees, about £162,000, County committees £30,000, and farmers themselves for cow testing are putting up £6,000. Yet we are all agreed that we can find £3,000,000 in this way in three years. I wonder do we realise these things when we say that we want organisation and that the Minister must tackle these things. What is expected of me is to go to the Minister for Finance and ask for more money. I would like to see more money spent on this from the State point of view. We must have co-operation, substantial co-operation, from the farmers or we will not get anything. It is absolutely unsound to spend money in these proportions. I could hardly be expected to bring in a Bill for the compulsory organisation of the farmers of the country. That would be impossible. That is something that must be done voluntarily. There is a possibility of making it easier by legislation, and that is a possibility of which I have not lost sight—not by means of legislation to compel anyone to organise. That cannot be done, but there is that possibility.
There must be either of two things — if the Department of Agriculture is not supposed to take off those instructors and inspectors and start organising the farmers, or, on the other hand, if the Minister for Finance is not to put up more money, what is the alternative? I would like to see more money for cow-testing associations and more money for improving the live-stock of the country. I do not now want to discuss this question of a farm institute for each district or for each parish, because I want to raise a point on that later on. Leaving out that, I would like to see more money spent on cow-testing and the improvement of live-stock generally. But I feel that we will not get value for that money until the farmers wake up. If they agree that there are such tremendous benefits financially to be attained by organisation within such a short time, why is it not done? I know that Deputies Baxter and Heffernan cannot be expected to organise the farmers. That is not their business. But I think it is our duty when a case is made for more money under this sub-head and for the improvement of live-stock, to point out that we cannot get any real value for that money until there is more substantial co-operation from the farmers themselves. I propose to give the figures for the rates struck in each county last year for the county schemes. The Dáil must remember on that particular point that a maximum rate of 2d. may be struck under the Agriculture and Technical Instruction Act. Carlow struck a 2d. rate, of which 1d. went to agriculture; Cavan, 1d. rate, of which ¾d. went to agriculture; Clare, 1d. rate, of which ¾d. went to agriculture; Cork, 1½d. rate, of which ½d. went to forestry; Tirconaill, 1d. rate, of which about ¾d. went to agriculture; Dublin, 1½d. rate, of which about 1d. went to agriculture; Galway, 1½d. rate; Kerry, 1d.; Kildare, 1½d., of which over 1d. went to agriculture; Kilkenny, 1d.; Leix, 2d., of which ½d. went to agriculture and 1d. to Irish, notwithstanding that there is another Act under which they could have struck a rate for Irish; Leitrim, 1d.; Limerick, ½d., of which they gave a little over a farthing for agriculture; Longford, 2d.; Louth, 1d.; Mayo, 1d.; Meath, 1½d.; Monaghan, 2d.; Offaly, 2d.; Roscommon, 1½d.; Sligo, 1d.; Tipperary North, 1d.; Tipperary South, 1½d.; Waterford, 1½d.; Westmeath, 2d.; Wexford, 1d.; Wicklow, 1½d.
The average rate for agriculture would, in any event, be about ¾d. The maximum is 2d. These are the figures, and in that state of affairs I do not think the State could be asked to put up more money.
I rise just to take stock of the position as one finds it to-day. The Minister's statement amounts to this: "There are things as they are. What are you going to do? I am telling you what is being done. We will leave things as they are." That is what it is, in plain words. It is all right for the Minister to say he would like to give more money, but that it is a question for the Minister for Finance. The condition in which we find things to-day is not, as far as I am concerned, a satisfactory position. I want to see what we can do to alter that. We all agree it is right and should be changed. Who is going to take the initiative? That is what it amounts to. The Minister tells us the farmers will not organise. I do not know what the biggest Farmers' Party in the Dáil, as they claim to be, are doing in that regard. There are many counties where there is not a cow-testing association at all. There is one cow-testing association in my county. I tried successfully to start one there. It took three or four of us, including the Co. Instructor, to get it going, and it took a very considerable amount of work. The difficulty is that if you have not got someone, independent of all parties, to do this work, it is not going to be done. The £4,000,000 that we get for the quantity of butter that we export could be made £8,000,000 in a number of years, with the very same number of cows that we have in Ireland to-day. Now, the question is — who is going to lead in that? The Minister says that the farmers do not do it. I am telling you what we are doing. If the demand does not come from the country from those cow-testing associations for the Government to put up 4/-, as against the 3/- the farmers put up, the Ministry will not think of putting it up. If there was a demand to-morrow from four or five hundred new associations for this money, that would involve an additional demand for finance from the Ministry of Finance. Sometimes people ask: "Are the Department really enthusiastic about bringing these associations into existence?" Because demands from these associations would mean a bigger demand on the finances of the State, people say the Ministry is not enthusiastic about it. If the people are terribly keen and make a demand, the Minister must rise to the occasion, but the Ministry is not enthusiastic about it. That is one of the interpretations that has been put upon the attitude of the Department. Now the Minister, I think, must take the initiative, and not leave it to others to do this. If the work of an association of this kind is to be left to others, we will come back here next year, and the Minister will find things as they are just now. If that is to be the attitude of the Minister on the problem of increasing the milk yield of the cows of Ireland, time and money will be lost to the country, whereas if action is taken now by spending a small sum——
Mr. HOGAN
What action does the Deputy suggest?
What the Minister requires is to get instructors to go into each area——
Mr. HOGAN
We have eleven.
I am only speaking from experience. I know one man came to my area and he had to do, I think, Louth and Monaghan and Cavan. He had to leave one remote district in my county to get to a meeting in Louth the next evening. It is impossible for a man to do work in an area like that. Half the money that is spent is wasted in travelling about from one district to another, whereas if he concentrated on one district, he would do the work with less expense, and he would do more valuable work. I suggest to the Minister that that is what ought be done. If he concentrated on one particular locality, the expenses of travelling would be less, whereas as it is worked to-day we have men travelling over two or three counties. Time is wasted and money is wasted in travelling. I am satisfied that if the Minister does not do more in this direction than he is doing now, he will find that he will have the same story to tell the Dáil for years and years to come.
I am very much in sympathy with Deputy Baxter's proposition, but I must certainly say, as a farmer myself, and as one coming from the County of Cork, where cow-testing is universal, that I do not believe that the farmers are so blind to their own interests, that having knowledge of cow-testing, they do not enter into such an organisation. I cannot see for the life of me why anybody should imagine for a moment that the Minister for Lands and Agriculture, or an official of the Department, should come out and bring the farmer in by the nose or compel him — farmers do not like to be compelled — to come into an association that in every district where it is established makes its influence so well felt that farmers become deeply interested, and would not do without such an association. I saw farmers coming up from the County Cork to the Spring Show here to buy dairy heifers in order to try and improve their herds. We are having a show in Cork early next month, and if some of the farmers would go down to Cork they would see the keenness of the men there with regard to the improvement of their herds. I admit that it is hard to get the man who has only five or six cows to commence cow-testing. Men of that class must be organised, but it is not the duty of the Minister for Lands and Agriculture to go out and organise them. He could not do that work without incurring expense, and we are slow to agree with him when he seeks to incur expense. To send out inspectors to different parts of the country to coerce farmers to adopt a course which is in their own interests, would be absolutely absurd. I have no axe to grind by supporting the Minister, but I am really in sympathy with him at the present moment, because I think Deputy Baxter's charge with regard to the Minister and to the Department is uncalled for on this occasion. He said some time ago that cow-testing associations would bring into being other associations. They would certainly create co-operative societies and farmers would benefit themselves if they would only see the great necessity there is for co-operation.
The Minister has asked when we will reach an improvement of 200 gallons. I think, even with the stock we have, if proper attention were paid, possibly in two years, and certainly in three years, we would have reached 100 of these gallons. With the first generation from that stock as a foundation, I think in six years' time we ought to arrive at a 200-gallon increase, provided those engaged in the business pay sufficient attention to the opportunities at their disposal and exercise judgment, and not be too beggarly to exercise it. What I mean is that if they have not the stock for the foundation, they should go and buy them and not let the best of our young stock go to England.
A DEPUTY
If they are able to buy them.
What is the use of talking like this? What is the use of being so beggarly? If we are not able to do something for ourselves, what is the use of handing out a spoon for someone to feed us? I am sick of these appeals for spoon-feeding. Anyone who wants to do it, can help himself. It does not mean money in this connection at all. You get as much money for the bad one you sell as for the good one you can buy instead. As to how this money could be better spent, what we want to get at is how this scheme could reach more people and be more effective. I know of no better way in which it could reach the majority of the people of this country who keep dairy cattle than through their own co-operative societies. Some intelligent co-operative societies have done good work. Others of them have done nothing at all, or scarcely anything at all. Some creamery managers have not been as active as they might be, considering the influence they have and the opportunities for making that influence effective. Everybody who knows the country will agree that a creamery manager has immense influence in his district. With this network of creameries all over the country, with the I.A.O.S., which is more or less the association which is in touch with the co-operative societies, with the active co-operation of the Agricultural Department and the Organisation of Creamery Managers. I see no reason in the world why a considerable advance should not be made in this direction. It is hard to expect that when the machinery is there, and when there is a Department with good-will there, that the people will not be responsive. Something is expected from the people, and, if the people are so pig-headed as not to be responsive, it is very hard to say what should be done with them. If steps were taken to call a conference between the Creamery Managers' Association, the I.A.O.S., the Department, and the farmers, some intensive scheme could be worked out that would perhaps in a short time be effective. Anyone who has any regard for the agriculture of this country must agree in maintaining that the dairy herds are the foundation of Irish agriculture, and will remain the foundation of our Irish agriculture, no matter what Ministers may say on the Government Benches or outside this House. The dairy cow and her offspring, the bullock and the heifer, will remain the foundation of the agriculture of this country.
Has that reference to Cavan?
Some of them take opportunity to go to Cavan to make statements that they would not make in this House. Lying statements have been made in Cavan that would not be made here. False statements have been made in Cavan that would not be made in this House.
They are corrected in the newspapers.
They are more intensified in the newspapers. These statements would not be made here, because they would be contradicted, but they are made in Cavan because they think they can get away with them.
Have these statements any reference to cow-testing?
Only for the interjection, I would not have referred to them at all. I will deal with them in the proper time (Interruption by a Deputy). It is not worth dealing with him in that way. We deal with men and not with monkeys. I think a move might be made by the Department with a view to bringing about co-operation on the question of cow-testing between the parties I have mentioned — the I.A.O.S., the creamery managers, and the farmers. There are only a few cow-testing associations in my county, when there should be half-a-dozen. As a matter of fact, there should be one or two in every two or three creamery centres. We have not as many as we should have.
Did I understand the Deputy to refer to a Deputy of this House as a monkey? That is an observation which should not be made.
I said, when I was interrupted, that I dealt with men, not with monkeys. Whether that applies to a member of this House or not, it is for people to judge.
That is not an observation which should be made with reference to a Deputy.
If the interruption that was made, while I was speaking was repeated, I might be able to tell you whether it refers to a member of this House or not.
With regard to this matter, we are faced with a definite condition of affairs. No useful purpose is served by throwing up our hands and saying, "what can we do." There is no use in engaging in the process of what the Americans call "tossing the buck." There is no use in the Minister blaming the farmers for their lack of organisation, and the farmers blaming the Department for lack of support. That will get us nowhere. This is a matter in which we are all at one. We all want to see things improved. We want to see the farmers' organised for the purpose of benefiting dairy herds. We know how extremely difficult it is to get organised.
The Farmers' Union.
Yes, Farmers' Union or otherwise. So long as they organise, we do not care. I, as an organiser for the Farmers' Union, have gone out and preached the principle of organisation with the object of improving dairy herds. I have attended many meetings with the local organiser and an inspector, and I have advocated the formation of those herds. We have done our best, with our limitations and with the time at our disposal, to help in that way. The fact that must be faced is that for some reason or other — some reason which, perhaps, can be accounted for — it is extremely difficult to organise farmers in connection with matters of this kind. Possibly, conditions in the country in recent years are blameable to some extent; the recent political feeling in the country is largely blameable. The farmers came together in the past for one object mostly, and that was political. They were addressed purely for political objects, and they have got accustomed to hearing a certain type of oratory. Anyone capable of using that type of oratory will get farmers to listen to him; but when you start on economic matters, you will find you lose their attention very quickly; they prefer to hear something in the nature of the sunburst oratory of the past. That is what we have been faced with. We, who have been engaged in organising farmers, know how heart-breaking it is to find yourself faced with that apathy, and how hard it is to instil the real spirit of co-operation and organisation amongst the farmers.
We hope there will be an improvement. There are signs of an improvement. It is up to us in the Dáil, no matter to what party we belong, to endeavour to bring about this improvement more quickly than the existing signs indicate. We have now control of our own affairs, and we should speed things up. We want to see things happening in three, five or six years that, if the present rate of progress is allowed to continue, would take fully twenty years. It is up to us to devise some system whereby we can bring about an improvement quickly. I am in agreement with Deputy Noonan to a great extent. It is really up to the farmers themselves to make progress. I agree with him also when he states that Cork leads the way in regard to organisation amongst farmers, both for co-operative and other purposes. Cork should be an example to the farmers in other counties. The main object is to make the farmers follow the example of a county like Cork.
The Minister did not deal with the suggestion I made that more propaganda should be used. When lecturers go around the country their visits should be properly advertised. Money should be made available for the purpose of advertising these lectures. The country at present is plastered with bills in connection with the local elections and from time to time it is plastered with bills of all kinds, including the visits of circuses and other matters. Why should not the country be plastered with bills indicating that lecturers are visiting different areas in connection with farming matters? Why not have a good advertisement in the local papers and let the people know the lecturer is coming? Why not consider the possibility of making these lectures attractive? We should endeavour that there would not be the usual cut and dried form of lecture, but that the lecture would be made interesting and attractive to the farmers. I am not satisfied that we should let things go on as they are going at present. I do not think it is right and I do not believe we are justified in doing so. It may appear a small thing, but in reality it is the most important thing the House could deal with. Today and on other days we discussed the expenditure of £2,000,000 for the purpose of promoting the sugar beet industry. If we can get this particular work done, and if we can get the farmers organised and get them to realise the money that is in this cow-testing business, if properly carried out, we will increase the value of dairy produce by £3,000,000 in three years. Even suppose we cannot go that far, and even if we increase it by £1,000,000, would we not have done wonderfully good work? We must not remain as we are and we must not allow the present apathy to continue. We must make a good effort so that no farmer, unless the farmer who is recognised by everybody as worthless and useless and a disgrace to the farming community, will remain outside the association.
Perhaps the Minister would give some consideration to the point I raised in regard to reducing the number of cows necessary in connection with the formation of an association?
Mr. HOGAN
I remember the Deputy's point quite well. I overlooked it, but I will refer to it later.
Undoubtedly, the test has established its value, but somehow I think it has a too limited application in more respects than one. The great idea of milk-testing, as we know it in this country, is to estimate the quantity and the total amount of fats milk contains, and the idea is that a cow that does not come up to the average standard, should be eliminated from the herd. That is all very well so far as it goes; but I think that with cow-testing there should be something like milk-testing. What I mean by that is that the purity of the milk should be taken into account. I see very little being done in that way.
Mr. HOGAN
On a point of order, I would suggest to the Deputy that that matter can be specifically raised under sub-head (n) (1), which deals with the subject of the Bovine Tuberculosis Order. We will be discussing that very subject under that sub-head, and we will reach it in a very short time. I merely make the suggestion from the point of view of the desirability of discussing the whole matter then.
I am quite agreeable to defer my statement until we reach that sub-head.
A lot has been said as regards the utility of cow-testing associations. I would like to say a few words concerning the monetary system referred to by the Minister for Lands and Agriculture. The Minister tells us that the amount contributed by the taxpayer to agriculture is somewhere about £160,000, for the improvement of live-stock and other things. That is the contribution of the State, and the contribution of the ratepayers and farmers generally totals only about £40,000.
Mr. HOGAN
£36,000.
Mr. DOYLE
It is in the vicinity of £40,000. Considering that the farming community is probably nearly three-fourths of the population of the Saorstát, I do not think the sum is really such a huge one. That is a contribution of £160,000, and to this £160,000 we are. certainly making some contribution. I would like to know from the Minister how many State Departments are receiving any contribution from the people whom they benefit. We are paying portion, at all events. We are three-fourths of the population, and we are contributing a larger amount of taxes than any other section of the people, directly or indirectly. Then it is held up to us that we are getting this £160,000. I hold it is just a mere bagatelle, considering the way other Departments are financed, although they do not represent one-eighth of the population, or perhaps in some cases, one-twentieth part of the population. I hold we are entitled to this £160,000. and we do not feel in the least under any compliment to the Minister or the Government for obtaining this amount from the Minister for Finance for the improvement of live-stock and the improvement of the milk yield of our cattle. I think, in justice, that we ought to get double the amount. The Minister himself says that he would like to spend more money, and I think he should spend more money. I think it would be well spent in the direction that Deputies Baxter, Heffernan, and others who have spoken, have indicated, that is, in increasing of cow-testing associations.
Mr. HOGAN
I forgot to refer, when I was speaking before, to the specific point raised by Deputy Baxter. That is as to the minimum number for cow-testing associations. There is power for the Department to agree to a lesser number, and they have always done so in any reasonable cases put up. Without asking for any further power, that option of the Department is in existence and will be exercised, and the benefit of the doubt will be given in any case where this question arises as to whether the number is too small. We will keep in mind the possibility of agreeing to even smaller numbers than we have agreed to, but the difficulty is that if you have a very small number, you do not get the finances on the three to four basis. I would like to have any suggestions — we are all at one in regard to the object — as to the methods necessary for the purpose of attaining the object. I will guarantee that any such suggestions will get the fullest consideration.
Before we pass on to G (3), there is another matter to which I would like to refer, and I do not know any other sub-head under which I could refer to it. One of the great reasons that there has been a failure with regard to the matter that we have been discussing under the last sub-head is this unfortunate outbreak of abortion that is common throughout the country. That, more than anything else, has been responsible for breaking up cow-testing associations. I know men who have put decent herds together, and an outbreak of abortion has occurred lasting two or three seasons, with the result that all the good herds have disappeared. It is one of the greatest curses the country is suffering from at present, the greatest curse certainly that cow-testing associations have met with up to the present.
Mr. HOGAN
That will arise under Sub-head N (I.), Diseases of Animals Acts.
I thought it would come under the heading of research work.
Mr. HOGAN
On page 84 you will find the Heading N (I.), Diseases of Animals Acts. That is a subject we will reach in a few minutes.
We will discuss it then under that head. There is a matter I want to raise under (H) (1) or (H) (2) and it is adverting to the discussion we had on the main Vote on the first day. We have asked for demonstration farms. I understand it is not the Ministers wish to have demonstration farms run commercially. They do not very well agree with the suggestion, although we favour it, of having commercial farms run by the instructors. The next best thing to that, is that the instructors in each county should get as many farms as possible that will be run strictly or as nearly as possible according to their instructions, where all the different phases of agriculture could be demonstrated, beginning with cattle, cow-testing, selection, and everything which could be demonstrated. The same will apply to fowl, to pigs, and to everything in agriculture. We believe that the time is ripe in the counties for these demonstration farms, that they will do more for agriculture than anything else you can do at the moment, that the old system has served its purpose and that a new system, or a better system, if it could be devised, should be brought into being. I understand that the Minister will be quite satisfied — the matter arises under this heading, Grants to the different Committees of Agriculture, and under (H) (2)—to deal with this question.
Mr. HOGAN
We debated this question at the opening of the Estimate. I stated, and I am quite satisfied myself, that it would be impossible to start commercial farms in any given numbers in every county. The experiment would not justify the expense. I agree with Deputy Baxter that it is a good policy to attach an instructor closely to three or four farms in a county, and to try to get a farmer to run his farm under the instructor's direction and advice. That method, of course, has its limitations. You will not get the particular farmer in each case to take the advice always, and there are other obvious objections. A shortage of money prevents people from taking such advice. So far as it can be done, and so far as it is possible to get the instructor to attach himself and to give particular attention to three or four farmers in the county, to choose his farmer, to see he is the sort of farmer who is reasonable and who can be trusted to carry out his advice and instruction, that policy will be pursued. As far as it is possible the instructors will see that individual farmers will get advice and instruction on the way to run a farm, and so make that farm a demonstration farm, suitable for costing purposes. That policy is being pursued and is getting special attention this year. We have met the instructors on this point, and they are getting instructions to proceed in this way. I hope it will bring about a state of affairs which the Deputy desires.
I want to suggest to the Minister that in the absence of any further suggestion on this question of cow-testing, his instructors should have specific instructions wherever they lecture in future and whatever districts they go into, to deal with the problem of dairying, and particularly stress the necessity of having these associations in existence. I am not positive what the position is at the moment. I am inclined to think that in the past they had a certain difficulty in taking part in the work of establishing these associations. Their instructions were a little bit obscure as to how far they could help in doing this. I am not quite clear, and I want to be absolutely certain that they will have instructions to do this, instructions to leave off other work that will not bring as great or as lasting a benefit as this, in order that these associations can be brought into existence.
Mr. HOGAN
The Deputy's suggestion is that the agricultural instructors should be asked to give special attention to cow-testing associations that are in existence and to the work of developing, as far as they can consistent with their other duties, cow-testing associations in every county?
Yes.
Mr. HOGAN
That is a sound suggestion, and I will undertake to examine the question from that point of view, and to see what they can do that they are not doing already.
I would like to have some information in reference to the grants made for agricultural classes. For what particular purpose are the grants given?
Mr. HOGAN
These grants are in respect of winter classes held by agricultural instructors. A sum of 4d. an hour is given in respect of the hours of attendance certified by the instructor. The grant goes into the general funds of the county committees of agriculture. As I stated earlier, the amount given the county committees of agriculture is about £90,000, plus £30,000 of their own. That money is used for the giving of premiums to bulls, boars, rams, etc., for educational purposes, for the payment of instructors and all the other work carried out by the county committees. This grant of £2,000 is merged in the general fund of the county committees, and is part of the £90,000 I have referred to.
Is the grant set aside specifically for these winter agricultural classes?
Mr. HOGAN
The procedure followed in respect of this grant is this: The agricultural instructor employed by a county committee goes into some particular district and holds winter classes there. The classes are attended by pupils from the district. The instructor keeps a record of their attendances, and at the end of the term a return is prepared showing how many pupils attended, with the number of hours' attendances they gave. The return is submitted to a meeting of the county committee, and, after it has been examined and certified, is sent to the Department for sanction. If the inspectors of the Department certify that the return is correct, a grant of 4d. per hour is given to the county committee for every certified hour of attendance at these classes.
In connection with these winter agricultural classes I wonder if the Minister could give me some information with regard to the attendances at them. My information is that, in most places, the attendance is very poor, and I would like to know if the Minister has any information to show whether in recent years there has been an improvement or otherwise in the matter of attendance.
Mr. HOGAN
In the year 1922/23 winter agricultural classes were held in sixteen counties. The number of classes held in that year was thirty-four, while the students numbered 415. In the year 1923/24 the figures were: Counties 22, classes 49, number of students, 726. In the year 1924/25 the figures were: Counties 20, classes 48; number of students, 756. The return shows that, as regards the attendance of pupils, there has been a very big improvement.
My idea in raising the question is that I was informed that in my own county the attendance was very poor at these classes. I was told, too, that it was very difficult to get the farmers' young sons to attend them. The case of two winter classes was brought to my notice. I was told that the attendance at one numbered 11 pupils, and at the other 8. For some reason or other the farmers' young sons are very reluctant to attend these classes. I imagine that all that is bound up with the question of education. Some of these young fellows may feel that they are not sufficiently well educated to take advantage of the instruction given, and therefore, unfortunately, remain away. I know that in many centres when the agricultural instructor arrives to hold his winter classes he has to start giving these young farmers the elementary knowledge that they should have acquired in the national school.
I am told, too, that very often these winter classes are held under conditions such as are not calculated to attract the boys they are intended for. Very often they are held in cold and draughty halls. The accommodation in many instances is not suitable, and I do not know whether there is provision made for heating these places or for providing the necessary apparatus for the classes. Some effort, at all events, should be made with a view to getting improved attendances at the classes which, of course, are most important. Whether the fault for the poor attendance lies with the young farmers' sons themselves or with the Department is a matter to be found out. Some of the fault is due, I think, to the recent political movement in the country. As a rule, you now find young fellows more accustomed to carrying revolvers and despatches and that kind of thing than devoting themselves to learning the scientific side of farming. I would like to know if the Minister has any ideas with regard to bringing about an improved attendance at these classes?
Mr. HOGAN
That is a very big question. I touched upon it in my opening statement, but I could hardly be expected to deal very fully with it on a small sub-head like this. When speaking earlier, I outlined what seemed to me to be a good scheme of agricultural education. I suggested that it should begin with a good primary education with compulsory attendance if necessary up to the age of 14 years, followed by efficient winter agricultural classes. As a foundation for the whole thing, I suggested that you should have first-class faculties for agriculture in the universities, which would provide the teachers, instructors and inspectors. I agree with Deputy Baxter as to the need for good village halls. If you had these, you would, of course, have suitable lecture rooms available in which to hold the classes. At present we have competent agricultural instructors, and I suggest that we are not going to disimprove them if we ensure that the future instructors are to come from the university colleges that have these first-class faculties in agriculture, and if they are provided with all the equipment they require for giving the necessary instruction. Proposals in that direction are at present before the Minister for Finance.
There is a question I want to raise on sub-head (I)—Special agricultural, etc., schemes in congested districts. In the congested districts veterinary surgeons are appointed to attend dispensaries. I suggest to the Minister that a scheme of that kind should be put into operation all over the country, especially in view of the great mortality that occurred last year amongst cattle. I remember that at one time in the County Wexford we had such dispensaries. The veterinary surgeons attended them once a week or once a fortnight, and this was really a great boon to the people. In the case of sickness amongst cattle, the people came to the veterinary surgeon and got his advice, and, if necessary, he went to the farm to examine the stock. That was a great boon to the people, and the work was done at very little expense. I really do not know whether at any time these veterinary dispensaries were set up in all parts of the country.
Mr. HOGAN
No.
Mr. DOYLE
Well, I know that in the County Wexford they were certainly a great benefit to the people. In any event, the veterinary dispensary we had was not continued, but the bee instructor was kept on. I suggest it would be far better to have the services of these veterinary surgeons continued than to have a bee instructor kept on.
With regard to the veterinary services, I think it would be a very valuable thing if veterinary lecturers could be sent through the country during the winter to lecture in the different villages and towns. A few years ago, during the winter the head of the Veterinary College in Dublin came down to lecture at different centres in the County Kildare, and these lectures were extremely well attended, and they were most interesting. He illustrated them in a most intelligent way so that everybody could understand them, and they were greatly appreciated by the men of the district. I think it would be a most valuable thing if during the winter such a course was carried out, and it would be the means of imparting most valuable knowledge to everyone. I attended many of these and I learned a great deal. I thought I knew a little, but I learned more at these lectures.
As supporting what Deputy Wolfe has said, I do not think the value of these lectures could be exaggerated or over-estimated, and whatever doubt there may be as to the attendance at the lectures of other instructors the attendance at the veterinary lectures exceeded all others in numbers. I think an extension of these lectures all over the country would be very valuable, and they would be highly appreciated.
Mr. HOGAN
We are considering the reorganisation of the Veterinary Inspectors' Department under the Diseases of Animals Act, and I will have the views expressed by Deputies considered there.
In reference to Item K, "Agricultural Societies and Shows," has the Minister given any further consideration to the suggestion I made on the question of the Dublin Show, and utilising it as a means of education for agriculturists?
Mr. HOGAN
I have not considered it very much since, but the question has been considered often. It is a valuable suggestion, but then look at the cost that would be entailed by bringing up any appreciable percentage of the people. We try to do the same thing in another way; that is, to encourage shows throughout the country, and we give them subsidies. I think the Deputy's suggestion was to bring people to the Spring Show here in Dublin, and, perhaps, to one or two big shows in the country, and to make arrangements with the railway companies. The railway companies give reasonable excursion fares to people coming to the shows in Dublin, but, so far as we can do anything in that direction, it can be done more usefully by encouraging shows in the country. We do that by subsidies, by sending our inspectors and our instructors there.
I am glad to hear the Minister say that he is prepared to assist by giving subsidies to local shows. But take the Spring Show here, you have people attending the Spring Show and getting education who have been educated long ago. The crowds that you see at these shows know everything already. The people you want to get are the people you could not get there up to the present.
To get the people I have in mind to the shows requires a certain organisation on the part of county instructors. What is wanted really is communication between the R.D. Society and the railway companies to get people taken up to the shows for the purpose of getting instruction. Money could not be better spent than bringing up small farmers to these shows. The information that is sought to be imparted by an instructor to people in their own districts would be much more easily accepted by people visiting shows, seeing what goes on, and hearing what is taught there.
Mr. HOGAN
I will give an undertaking to do what I can with the R.D. Society and the railway companies to get cheaper fares to the show.
The combination of cheap fares with admission to the show is very important.
Mr. HOGAN
That is what I mean.
I call attention to sub-head (K) (2), which is a contribution to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society. I understand that in past years portion of that was set aside for the work done in the bacteriological laboratory in Plunkett House. I understand that notice has been given to the few people who carry on that work that the work they did formerly is to be transferred, portion of it to the Cork University, and the remainder to the State Chemist's Department. I want to know what is the attitude of the Minister towards the few people concerned in this business. Will consideration be given to those whose services are dispensed with in Plunkett House and who carried on this useful work, and have the necessary qualification. I understand these people, in addition to being paid out of the grant have been dependent for the payment of their services on voluntary subscriptions from co-operative creameries. Perhaps the Minister would say something as to what alteration is being made in regard to this particular work which was carried on at Plunkett House, and whether any consideration is likely to be given to the men who have been disemployed.
Mr. HOGAN
Plunkett House never did any work for us. The work was done on their own account. We gave a grant of £4,500 to the general funds of the I.A.O.S. and we got the balance sheet at the end of each year. That £4,500 was not specially earmarked for any particular service to be given by the I.A.O.S., therefore, we have no responsibility for the officers dispensed with.
I know that.
Mr. HOGAN
In appointments to be made under the Dairy Produce Act for which these officers may be suitable their experience will be given full consideration.
As we have now reached Item M. as there are matters I desire to raise under this head, and as the hour is so late I think we should now adjourn.
Mr. HOGAN
I move to report progress.