I ask for permission to change the date of the selection by the Dáil, in Rule 11, from the 9th to the 8th July. As to the points that were raised by Deputy Johnson on the last day, I have given very careful consideration to the discretion of the Returning Officer in this matter.
SEANAD ELECTION RESOLUTION—REPORT.
Resolution, as amended in Committee, reported.
The proposal is that on page 3, Rule 11, 9th be deleted and 8th inserted, so as to make it read: "The voting shall take place at the sitting of Dáil Eireann on the 8th day of July, 1925."
I would like to have an understanding that the voting would take place early on that date, say from 10 a.m. until 2 p.m.—four hours. If 10 a.m. is considered too early, I would be agreeable to make it 11 a.m., or whatever other hour would be considered reasonable. I would ask that the voting be not carried any later than 2 p.m. Deputies will know in a short time the reason why I am making that request. It appears that quite a number of people will be coming here to the Pan-Celtic Congress, and there will be some function on the afternoon of that day. I would like that the two things would not conflict. I imagine that from 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. would be a reasonable period.
Would that be on a Wednesday?
It would be on a Wednesday.
Would there be any alteration in the date for handing in nominations?
No, that remains the 6th July.
Have Deputies to attend in person to vote?
The Dáil will have to assemble here. It will then be a question as to how we can manage. I think it would be better if we did the work in an hour. Deputies cannot come in and vote merely. Deputies must vote in the Dáil. Postal votes cannot count. There must be a meeting of the Dáil, and Deputies must attend. The ballot papers are collected during that meeting. One hour would really do. If it were agreed that we would sit from 12 noon to 1 p.m. it would suit.
Will any other business be taken during that week?
I do not anticipate there will be any other business, but I cannot give an undertaking to that effect.
There will be no business on the day of nomination, the intervening day, Tuesday, and the day of election?
I cannot undertake to say there will not, but to the best of my knowledge and belief there will not be any other business but that of the election.
Can nominations be handed in before Monday, July 6th?
Yes; Monday is the last day for nominations.
When will the nomination forms be available? Will they be available as soon as the Resolution is passed?
They are in existence now, and they will be available when the Resolution has been passed.
Does the President propose to alter Rule 14?
Yes.
That alteration will be consequential.
It will need to be altered both as to time and date.
If the Dáil agreed, one hour might suffice for the election. As far as I know, there will not be any business except the voting.
It would be perfectly absurd to bring some of us at 11 a.m. and have the voting dragging on to 2 p.m. It would be a tedious process. I think one hour would be sufficient.
I would suggest from 12 noon to 2 p.m.
That will be put into the Resolution?
Yes. "At or before the adjournment of Dáil Eireann, but not later than 2 o'clock in the afternoon of the 8th day of July, 1925 ..."
The proposal is to amend two rules. One of them is Rule 11, which would now read: "The voting shall take place at the sitting of Dáil Eireann on the 8th day of July, 1925." That is substituting 8th for 9th. There is a consequential alteration in Rule 14, which would now read: "At or before the adjournment of Dáil Eireann, but not later than 2 o'clock in the afternoon of the 8th day of July, 1925, each Deputy shall deliver his voting paper to the returning officer." I have to put the amendments separately, but as they are dealing with the same thing, more or less, I want both to be understood before I put the first.
The proposal, as I understand it, is that the papers will be delivered some time on the morning of the 8th after the House has opened?
Yes.
But before 2 o'clock the papers must be marked and handed in?
That is so.
I suggest we should give consideration to the period of time which will be required by Deputies to mark ballot papers, under the P.R. system, with intelligence, where there may be 50 or 38 names.
There may be 100.
There may be any number of names, for that matter. We ought to have a considerable time for that operation.
Very good. The adoption of this, if we agree on 2 o'clock as being the latest hour, would not prevent us adjourning, say, some day next week until 10 a.m. on the 8th July, or 11 a.m. on the same day. I presume if a sufficient number of Deputies did not attend the Ceann Comhairle would probably adjourn the sitting until 12 noon, and then reassemble to see if a sufficient number was present. We would then have two hours, and that period would be quite sufficient in which to mark ballot papers.
Of course it may be. I suppose on the assumption that the voters in the constituencies will not require two hours in which to mark their ballot papers, we ought to be content with less. They may need two hours, but they will not get that time.
Might I suggest that there will be some uncertainty as to the hour of meeting? Perhaps notice as to the hour of meeting will be sent to each Deputy?
All these things will, of course, be done.
The President has not considered the advisability of making allowance for a secretary or some adviser for voters in the country as to how they should intelligently mark this form? I think it is really a job for a very learned individual.
The results of the election of persons for the Panel by the Dáil and Seanad will be available for the people who want to make rules for the election in the country.
According to Rule 7, the names of the persons nominated will be sent out not later than 7th July. The voting will be on the 8th July. By what method will the names be sent out? Is it certain that they will reach Deputies in time? If they are not sent out until the night of the 7th July they may not reach Deputies in time and Deputies would then be without the full list when it comes to the matter of voting.
Nominations will be received as from the time of the passing of this Resolution. The nominations received will be sent out from day to day and Deputies will be kept up-to-date in regard to nominations. On the 7th July Deputies will not be in the position of not knowing anything about the nominations; they will know the persons nominated up to, say, the 3rd July. The nominations made on the 7th July, the last nominations made, will have to be sent to the Dublin addresses of Deputies. If a Deputy were not going to attend the Dáil, the list would be of no use to him.
The nominations made on the 7th July may not reach Deputies in time for voting. Deputies may not be aware of some of the candidates being put forward and, on the 8th July, they will not have sufficient time to consider the list.
The complete nomination paper containing all the nominations will be sent to the Dublin addresses of Deputies and not to the country, so that when the Deputy arrives for the meeting he will get those names. If he does not arrive for the meeting of the Dáil, he cannot vote and therefore the names would be of no use to him.
Then the names will be sent out in time?
Yes.
I would like it to be made clear that we are not meeting on the 7th July.
We are not.
The President remarked that we might meet at 11 a.m. on the 8th. That would mean that the country Deputies would have to travel up on the 7th July. If the meeting were not held until 2 p.m. on the 8th we could come up that morning, and that is a consideration. It is a matter of convenience that will apply to all country Deputies of different parties. We ought to arrange a sitting at 2 o'clock on the 8th. Country Deputies can then come and get through this work of voting. There is no reason why we should be here two days to do it.
This is Thursday, the 25th June. We shall sit tomorrow, presumably, and we shall have, in the ordinary course, four days next week on which meetings will be held. We are dealing with a Bill to-day which has yet to have its final reading. Then it has to go to the Seanad and will possibly be amended. It will then come back to the Dáil. There are other matters of very great importance that have not yet been touched upon. I do not know how long we will take to discuss them. We are assuming too much if we think we shall be able to get through all the business in the next five days and that we shall not require to have a meeting on the 7th or 8th July or any day subsequently. We are assuming too much if we think it will be easy to get through the business in so many days.
If Deputies prefer to leave this matter over for a couple of days, and have it put down for Tuesday, I am quite agreeable. We would then be better able to judge whether we would have business for that week. I do not anticipate we will. I thought we would finish next week.
Is there any necessity for having the voting for the Seanad Panel as the last business to be transacted by the Dáil? Why should there be a question about postponing this resolution?
The resolution cannot be postponed, because the nomination papers cannot be sent out until the resolution is adopted. Is it necessary to put in all these details with regard to the day in the resolution?
It is.
That is for the guidance of the returning officer?
Yes.
Will the nomination papers be available only to Deputies or would it be possible for the candidates to get them themselves? Must they come through Deputies?
They must come through Deputies, because it is the Deputies who are making the nomination.
A candidate cannot nominate himself, unless he is an outgoing Senator.
That is not the point For instance, there may be a prospective candidate who has to get the support of four Deputies. He has to commence somewhere, and, to do that, he must have nomination papers sent to the Deputies to sign.
The candidates are not nominating themselves. That would be an awful prospect. If any person who wished to get nominated could get a nomination paper and chase Deputies around until he would wear them out with importunity, it would be a terrible prospect. I do not think any such procedure is contemplated.
Rule 4, I think, answers Deputy Hewat's point:
"The returning officer shall cause nomination papers to be supplied to any Deputy requiring the same during the period commencing at the time of the passing of this resolution and ending at twelve o'clock noon on the 6th day of July, 1925...."
The candidate in question will first have to persuade a Deputy to get a nomination paper on his behalf.
Will it be open to a Deputy to nominate any number of candidates within the limit?
Unfortunately, I do not know this resolution by heart.
There is no limit to the number of candidates.
The Deputy can nominate any number he wishes, but the nomination paper is not valid unless the candidate is nominated by a Deputy, seconded by a Deputy, and that two Deputies act as assentors.
Deputy Heffernan's point, I think, was that suppose he and Deputy Baxter nominated five or six candidates, would that be in order?
That would be perfectly in order, but I think the House generally would see the futility of a performance like that. One Deputy could nominate a dozen candidates, but what would be the use? It will take, practically, the support of three Deputies for any candidate to get nominated on the panel. If five Deputies nominate ten candidates, those five Deputies will only be able to secure the return of two candidates on the panel. Therefore, they are wasting their own time, as well as the time of the Dáil, by putting up a greater number.
But they may satisfy the aspirants.
A difficulty may be found in getting four Deputies for different nomination papers. It might facilitate some Deputies if it was understood that separate names were not required on each paper—that four Deputies, say, could deal with all the nomination papers that a party might think of sending in.
That is exactly the point. The same four Deputies could nominate all the candidates for a party of, say, fourteen.
Amendments put and agreed to.
Motion made—"That the Dáil agree with the resolution as amended."
I would like to ask the President if there is to be a period of several days between the receipt of the first nomination and the day of election, whether it is intended to make public the names of the candidates which are received day by day, or whether it is intended that the electors —in this case the members of the Dáil— will be informed when the nominations are made, and only then, of those who have been nominated. If that were the procedure it might save a great deal of log-rolling and canvassing and waste of public time. If nobody knew who was nominated until the nominations were closed then, as I say, we would be saved a great deal of time, and the public would be saved a certain amount of curiosity and the pains consequent upon it.
That cuts two ways. Under one paragraph of the rules nominations, directly they are made, are to be circulated to Deputies. That has an advantage. Take it that certain Deputies are interested in seeing a member of the medical profession nominated. Several Deputies may have that in mind. If they see that there is a doctor nominated and they are satisfied about the nomination, they need not trouble further. As to keeping the matter secret, one can just picture how a secret will be kept by a hundred persons, each of whom will have a number of friends who will require to know the type of person nominated. It would inevitably get out that certain persons had been nominated. I think it is almost certain that directly nominations are handed in the names will appear in the Press. I see a good deal of force in having the nominations sent to each Deputy once they are made. Say, for instance, a man is interested in the banking business. He would like to see some prominent banker in the list of nominations, and there is a difficulty in his approaching other Deputies to see if there is any intention of nominating such a person. He gets the return of nominations on a particular morning and he finds that there is such a person nominated. That relieves him of trouble. I think from the point of view of information, and from the point of view of the various institutions and interests in the country, that it is advisable to have information regarding the nominations published without delay. I also think that once the information goes out to a large number of members of the House, it is inevitable that it should become public.
Would the President follow that up by saying what he was proposing to say on paragraph 6?
Yes. Should the returning officer make a representation to me or to the Executive Council that he needs legal assistance, I do not see any difficulty in the Executive Council acceding to a reasonable request of that sort. But in view of the plainness of the electoral law on the question of disqualification of candidates for election to the Seanad, I cannot conceive any great difficulty arising or any matter arising which the returning officer would not himself be able to settle to the satisfaction of practically everybody. As regards one particular matter mentioned by Deputy Johnson the last day I am satisfied that no possible difficulty can arise in that connection.
I still think that there is a flaw in this paragraph. I realise that a returning officer must be able to say whether he accepts or rejects a particular nomination, but the phraseology of the paragraph is very definite and gives that returning officer not only power, but very grave responsibility to interpret not only the electoral law but the Constitution, and the disability or incapacity of any person according to the Constitution or the law. Then it is provided that the decision of the returning officer as to whether the nomination paper is valid or invalid "shall be final for all purposes." I do not suppose that it could be held that the returning officer's decision, on the authority of a resolution of the Dáil, would be finally above the law, but it may be argued that this is so very definite and conclusive that it involves more than would reasonably be looked for from the returning officer's position. I do not understand the implications of the phrase "shall be final for all purposes." Why not, "shall be final for this purpose?" would like to have explained the meaning of the phrase "shall be final for all purposes."
As regards the nomination paper, we are laying down what will constitute its validity—the proposer, seconder and two assentors. So far as the phrase "shall be final for all purposes" is concerned, that is used in connection with the nomination by the Dáil and the formation of the Dáil panel. To that extent, it really embraces "all purposes" and is final and conclusive.
Question put and agreed to.
Nomination papers are now available in the office. Deputies who desire more than one nomination paper can have them within reasonable limits. Only 300 papers have been printed.