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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 Jun 1925

Vol. 12 No. 16

DAIL RESUMES. - SHOP HOURS (DRAPERY TRADES, DUBLIN AND DISTRICTS) BILL, 1925 (SENATE)—SECOND STAGE.

I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill. In the year 1920 an arrangement was come to as between the drapery trade and their assistants, that certain houses would close not later than half-past seven on Saturdays, and the general position of the trade was that the adoption of a rule like that prevented friction from arising at that time. The larger late-closing houses closed at half-past six on Saturdays, leaving the extra hour until half-past seven for the smaller houses to keep open. The agreements were very satisfactory until quite recently. However, after the agreement was come to, some of the very smaller houses broke the agreement and kept open until later hours, but the trade was not very much affected, and the breaking of the agreement by these smaller houses was ignored. Quite recently, however, a larger number of these small houses have begun to keep open after half-past seven on Saturdays, and the result has been that some of the larger houses that did close at half-past six informed their assistants that as a result of the late opening of the other houses round about them that they would have to keep open later on the Saturdays. The assistants have made it clear to those drapery houses that any change of the arrangement that at present exists would give rise to serious friction in the drapery trade again.

There is at present friction in the drapery trade. The assistants have made it quite clear that 6.30 and 7.30 for closing would give very reasonable facilities to the shopping portion of the community on Saturday evenings, and it would give those of the assistants who live near Dublin a reasonable opportunity of getting away from town and spending the Sunday in their own homes—a reasonable week-end rest. The proposal contained in the Bill is to give legislative effect to an arrangement that has apparently existed for the last four years and has given satisfaction both to the traders in the drapery trade and to the assistants. The Bill refers to the Shop Hours Act of 1912. That Act was a consolidation of previous legislation dealing with the regulation of the hours of certain houses. Among the things that it did was to give a weekly half-holiday, commencing not later than 1.30, to shop assistants. It also made obligatory the shutting of shops with certain exceptions, for a weekly half-holiday not later than one o'clock. It provided certain meal hours for the assistants, and certain authority was given to local bodies to regulate further the closing of houses. Under that Act I understand that the Dublin Corporation authorities issued an order which closed drapery houses not later than 7 o'clock on an ordinary week day and not later than ten o'clock on a Saturday. It actually took six years after the passing of the Shop Hours Act of 1912 to get that order made, so cumbersome is the machinery for arranging for a closing of this particular type in any trade. It is necessary to get two-thirds of the traders in a trade to agree to close at a particular hour, and a shop which has no assistants, which is run by members of the owner's family, has the same voting power as a shop like Clery's or Switzer's, or any other shop in the city, which might employ 100 or 150 assistants. So that there is no adequate machinery contained in the Shop Act of 1912 for dealing with a matter like this, and the members of the Merchant Drapers' Association and the representatives of the Distributive Workers' Association have come together and have discussed the problem that exists. They have come to the conclusion that very serious friction cannot be prevented in the drapery trade unless the agreement that was entered into four years ago is now actually put into the form of legislation, and this Bill proposes to do so for a period of five years. Three years was the original period, but that was amended in the Seanad.

Some idea of what is involved in the opposition to this Bill can be gathered from the fact that the Merchant Drapers' Association employs, I am told, about ninety per cent. of the drapers' assistants in the city—approximately 2,300; the other ten per cent. are employed by the smaller houses. I understand that a list of the smaller houses which oppose this measure has been circulated. It has to be borne in mind that there are three sets of drapers, as it were; you have the smaller drapers, who are represented by this list of 204, and then you have another body of drapers who, while not opposing this Bill, and while generally welcoming the regulation of the hours of the drapery trade in the city, do not belong to the Merchant Drapers' Association. This list is arranged in alphabetical order, and if you take the first twenty-six names in the A's and B's you will find fifteen houses which do not employ even one assistant, and the Bill, as it stands, exempts from the application of the closing order houses of that type. These facts will give some idea of the extent to which the drapery trade is in favour of this Bill and the type of opposition that there is to it. I desire to propose that the Bill be read a Second Time.

I understand from the President and Deputy Mulcahy that this Bill is an agreed measure. I am not in disagreement with its actual intention. The only reason why I feel that there is a necessity for me to speak on the matter at all is that the Bill involves a principle of very extended importance. This is a case where a trade comes to an agreement amongst itself and its assistants, and because a certain section of the trade breaks away from that agreement and will not carry it out, are we to compel by legislating the carrying out of this agreement? I feel that the non-carrying out of the agreement is not worthy of much consideration, because obviously the shops are being kept open later than the hour that was arranged for with the pure intention of capturing a certain amount of trade. I have no sympathy with that whatsoever. On the other hand, one must recognise that the Shop Hours Act was passed for the purpose of controlling the hours and conditions of work in connection with shops of all descriptions. Deputy Mulcahy pointed out that the Shop Hours Act is not effective, for reasons which he gave. If the Shop Hours Act is not satisfactory—and I presume it is not in this case—I think the remedy is to amend the Act so that it would apply in cases where shop assistants are being asked to do what the law did not intend that they should do. Deputy Mulcahy has said that when this Bill is in operation—I presume it will be passed—the number of assistants affected will be very small compared with the number of houses that will still be able to keep open. Therefore, as far as the trade is concerned, it does not seem to me that the Bill will have very much effect at all, because the houses that do employ assistants need only make arrangements whereby the assistants will not be employed in order to keep open as long as they like. This Bill will not affect shops carried on by the members of the owner's family.

Some of them will want big families.

It is a very satisfactory way of employing their families and possibly a very profitable way, but my main criticism is that the Bill is not going to be very effective. In the second place, it is going to establish by a privately promoted Bill, under the auspices of the Government, I presume, because it has got Government time, an amendment of the Shop Hours Act. This Bill will mean that in a street with half a dozen houses together, one a draper and another something else, and so on, that the one who carries on the drapery trade is going to be closed by the operation of this Bill, whereas all the others can remain open under the law until 10 o'clock at night. It is going to establish a principle which I contend is very much more far-reaching than the importance of the Bill justifies. It is going to establish the right of traders to come here and say that a certain number of the trade are agreed on a certain thing and they are going to compel other people to do exactly the same. I leave it to the House to say if this is a desirable interference with the liberty of the subject in connection with legislative matters.

What about the Trade Boards Act?

I have always considered the Oireachtas as legislating not for sections but for the whole of the people. This Bill essentially deals with sections even on the ground of the application of the Bill to a certain district. It is not proposed to apply to the country as a whole. Why? That is a difficult question to answer. Why is a locality legislated for on a particular principle which might come in as being under the Trades Disputes Act? It is a case where you have different sections of trade. I am not going at all into the wrongs or the rights of it. Different sections cannot agree, and they come to the House to compel observance of an agreement by legislation. Personally I have no objection to the Bill as far as particular facts of the case are concerned, but I could not let pass without comment a principle so far-reaching as the one which is embodied in this Bill.

I support the Bill. I think it must be very unusual indeed for us to be asked by large and small employers in a certain trade, and by most of the employees in that trade, to pass a Bill allowing them to cease work at 7.30 on Saturdays. I think, as we have been asked not only by the employers, both large and small, but by the employees, that we ought to pass this Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

We can take the Committee Stage on Friday.

I do not think that gives sufficient time, because there appears to be a wide difference of opinion about this Bill. It might be well not to take the Committee Stage until after the Recess.

On the contrary, there seems to be a unanimity of opinion about this. Everyone in the House seems to want it, and I support the taking of the Committee Stage as soon as possible.

I have been speaking to a gentleman outside who has 200 signatures against it, so that there seems to be by no means unanimity of opinion about it.

We are not discussing the Bill. We are discussing when we are to take the Committee Stage. Is it agreed that the Bill be taken on Friday? Does Deputy O'Máille take exception to next Friday?

I think it does not give sufficient time for amendments.

I would raise no objection to amendments to be put in by Friday. Perhaps the Deputy will waive his objection and let it be taken on Friday with whatever amendments there may be.

Are we meeting on Tuesday?

I am hoping that for Tuesday we will not have any other special business except the Seanad elections.

Provided amendments be taken without notice on Friday, I have no objection.

Is it proposed to complete this Bill before we adjourn? If so, it means the suspension of Standing Orders on Friday in order to get through the other stages.

It is very desirable that the Bill be completed before the present sittings of the Dáil terminate, and I should be prepared to put down a motion to suspend Standing Orders to allow that to be done.

The answer is, that it is proposed that the Bill should be taken through its stages before the adjournment for the Summer. If that adjournment is to be on Friday, and if there is to be no business next week, except for the purpose of selecting the Seanad panel, the Bill could not be taken through all its stages except by agreement. That question of agreement can be raised on Friday if the Committee Stage is taken on Friday.

Does it mean on Friday if notice of motion is given to suspend Standing Orders that it requires a majority of the whole House?

I think it would mean general agreement on Friday. Objection on Friday would prevent the Fourth and Fifth Stages from being taken.

Personally, I am not going to do more than I have said. I am not going to obstruct the Bill in any way.

Committee Stage ordered for Friday, 3rd July.
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