Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Nov 1925

Vol. 13 No. 2

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - OWENMORE DRAINAGE BILL, 1925—MONEY RESOLUTION.

MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

I move:—

"That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to make provision for the formulating and carrying out of a scheme of arterial drainage of the River Owenmore and its tributaries, it is expedient to authorise—

(a) the advance by the Commissioners of Public Works, out of moneys under their control and applicable to loans of a sum of £8,860; and

(b) the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of so much of the costs and expenses incurred by the Commissioners in carrying such Act into effect as is not covered by the above advance."

The Owenmore drainage project is one that was inherited from the Congested Districts Board. In 1913 and 1914 preparations were made to carry on this work and, in anticipation of the scheme being formulated, a certain amount of work was done by the Congested Districts Board. During the present year money was provided in the Public Works Vote to the extent, I think, of £12,000. Something like £9,000 or £10,000 were expended this summer. The district is a congested one and the arrangements that are being made for financing the scheme are not such as can be taken as a precedent. The entire expenditure will be in the neighbourhood of £50,000 and the amount that will be paid by the inhabitants of the district will be £8,860.

Mr. JOHNSON

This is an opportunity that one must take to raise a question appertaining to the work that will ensue under this motion and one of the consequences. If the Minister for Industry and Commerce were here he might be able to give us some information on the point. When works of this character on drainage schemes of one kind or another are being operated, one of the consequences is that men working on the schemes are being deprived of rights which they would be entitled to were they working upon other works, because it is said it is agricultural labour. The men, therefore, are being deprived of the right to unemployment insurance; and the boards and, I take it, the Department of Lands and Agriculture, are responsible for saying that this class of work is agricultural work, and that the men employed on it are not entitled to have their cards stamped for unemployment insurance. This motion will give the Minister an opportunity of saying whether it is contemplated that this work is to be considered agricultural labour for the purpose of the Unemployment Insurance Act.

I think it is entirely wrong to suggest that men working on drainage schemes should be classed for the purposes of the Unemployment Insurance Act as agricultural labourers. I raise the question and perhaps some instances will be given of the way in which this class of work is being used to deprive workmen of their rights under other laws.

Mr. CORISH

I would like to supplement what Deputy Johnson has said in this connection. Two or three drainage schemes are being carried out in the constituency—Wexford—that I represent and I know that this matter has been taken up on various occasions with the Board of Works. Their answer is that they cannot, under the Act, stamp the insurance cards of these men. I do not think that by any stretch of imagination anyone can say the work that is being carried out in connection with these drainage schemes is agricultural work. It is work of a very different kind, indeed, and it has no relationship whatever, as far as I could observe, to agricultural labour. I might say that a great number of the men engaged on these schemes are men who, prior to their engagement on this work, were not at agricultural labour at all. I would like to hear from the Minister what justification he has to offer for depriving these men of the right to have their cards stamped. I think that if he examines the question carefully he will see that they are entitled to have their cards stamped.

Professor O'SULLIVAN

This matter was raised with the Board of Works. We did not look upon it as agricultural labour, because there may be some people, quite a number of people, connected with it who previously might not be connected with agricultural labour. Yet it was really an adjunct to the agricultural work of the country. It was mainly carried out by people in the district and it was intended to be so carried out. Personally, we were anxious to get the cards stamped. We sought advice and the answer we got was that there would be no use stamping the cards as that would not give any benefit to the people in question, and that the legal position is such that our stamping the cards would not effect what Deputy Corish desires.

Mr. CORISH

I would like to know how anybody could arrive at the decision that a man whose card is stamped fully is not entitled to benefit.

Professor O'SULLIVAN

The advice we got was that if he had not the right to have his card stamped and we did stamp it he would not get it. On agricultural matters, so far as insurance is concerned, I am not an authority. We got advice and the advice was: this is not a case in which the worker is entitled to insurance benefit.

Mr. JOHNSON

Can the Minister say if his Department was engaged in making a road to a farm that that would be an adjunct to agriculture, and, therefore, he would not be entitled to stamp the cards of the man, or if he was building a barn, the men would not be entitled to have their cards stamped? The barn would be naturally an adjunct to agriculture. Would that be considered agricultural labour? Is it intended that the work under this scheme, which is now under consideration, moryah, will also be considered agricultural labour?

Professor O'SULLIVAN

It is quite clear that building a barn is not agricultural labour. That is a very different class of work from the type carried on under an ordinary normal arterial drainage scheme, which is certainly much nearer to ordinary agricultural work. In fact, it is another form of the very type of work that goes on in the first part of all agricultural work. If analogies are used, a much closer analogy is to be found in the thorough drainage of a farm than in likening the work to building a barn or a hay-shed, which are very different things. Here you have drainage of two types. We can see no justification for making a distinction between this particular type of arterial drainage and the thorough drainage of a farm.

Mr. CORISH

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say is this the first time that the question of the stamping of insurance cards has been raised in his Department? Prior to this year have these men's cards been stamped?

Professor O'SULLIVAN

I am afraid I could not answer that right off. This is the first time that it has been brought to my notice. I cannot tell beyond that.

Mr. CORISH

Would the Parliamentary Secretary say what prompted him, on this occasion, to apply to the Ministry of Industry and commerce to ask about this? Is he in a position to say whether prior to this year these cards were stamped?

Professor O'SULLIVAN

The difficulty I am in is that prior to this year I do not think the people were employed by the Board of Works at arterial drainage for ten or even twenty years. Prior to this year I doubt very much if the question could have arisen.

Mr. JOHNSON

More rubbing it into the unemployed man.

Question put and agreed to.