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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 19 Jan 1926

Vol. 14 No. 1

STREET TRADING BILL, 1925—SECOND STAGE.

I move the Second Reading of the Street Trading Bill, 1925. This is a Bill not for the abolition of what is known as street trading, but for its better regulation and control. For some time back—a year or two—I have had complaints from two sources with regard to abuses arising from the practice of street trading in Dublin. The police complain that the matter was an abuse in that the existing legislation was inadequate to deal with it, and merchants and shopkeepers in certain streets in the city complain that the paths outside their premises were blocked by street traders in such a way that people could not conveniently secure access to their premises. Looking into that, we find that the position is pretty much as represented, both by the business people of the city and by the police; that an abuse undoubtedly exists, and no existing legislation is sufficient to meet the situation fully.

The Dublin Police Act of 1842 and the Summary Jurisdiction Act of 1851 make it an offence to obstruct the public in their use of a highway, but actual obstruction by some one or more individuals must be proved before a conviction can be obtained, and in practice a conviction under one or other of those Acts is a matter of considerable difficulty. The police find it difficult to deal with cases of obstruction by street traders. The ordinary individual will naturally put up with a considerable amount of inconvenience in passing through a street or along a path before he will put himself in the position practically of a plaintiff or State witness in a prosecution. Street traders have for the last few years been establishing themselves in many streets throughout the city where trading of that kind was not previously carried on, with the result that where proceedings have been instituted against them for obstruction, the argument has been advanced that a conviction would have the effect of depriving the traders of their means of livelihood. District Justices in Dublin have been impressed with that argument, and have indicated that in their opinion this practice of street trading, which is of comparatively recent growth, cannot be satisfactorily dealt with under the Acts of 1842 or 1851. We were convinced, therefore, that further legislation was necessary—legislation which, while permitting street trading and thus preserving the means of livelihood for the persons engaged therein, would regulate and control traders, so that there would be no undue interference with traffic on the highway or with those engaged in carrying on business in shops and premises throughout the city. That is the object of the present Bill.

The class of persons affected by the Bill may be roughly described as those who carry on their business otherwise than in shops or places of business, and there are really three distinct classes of traders of that kind who have been subject to legislative control under legislation of the past. There is an old Act of 1871 called the Pedlars Act. A pedlar was defined as a person who, without a beast of burden, travels from town to town or to other men's houses carrying or exposing for sale any goods or merchandise. A pedlar had to obtain a yearly certificate in respect of which a fee of 5/- was payable to the police yearly. Then there was an Act of 1888—the Hawkers Act—and a hawker. I find, is a person who travels with a beast of burden and goes from place to place selling goods or merchandise, or who travels by any means of locomotion to any place in which he does not usually reside or carry on business, and who sells, or exposes for sale any goods or merchandise. The hawker had to obtain a yearly certificate in respect of which an Excise fee of £2 was payable to the Revenue Commissioners. So you have there a distinction between a pedlar, who went without a beast of burden, and a hawker who had his beast of burden. It was probably the first act of a prosperous pedlar to become a hawker by securing a beast of burden.

There are other classes of traders, such as persons selling vegetables or coal, who were exempted from the obtaining of a hawker's certificate. The street trader, over whom it is sought to have control under this Bill, will not, as a general rule, come within the definition of either a pedlar or a hawker. Street traders reside in the city of Dublin and, for the most part, sell their wares on the street, either on a pitch taken up there or by moving from street to street, carrying their wares in their hands or in small receptacles. Where in any case, owing to the nature of the trading carried on by any street trader, he may be deemed to fall within the definition of either a hawker or pedlar, the obtaining of a street trader's certificate under this Bill will relieve him of the necessity of obtaining a certificate under either the Pedlars Act or the Hawkers Act of 1888.

The object of the Bill, therefore, is not to abolish street trading, but control and regulate it, and provision is made by which any person desirous of engaging in street trading must first obtain an annual certificate from the Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána, for which a fee of 5/- will be payable. The fee is charged simply in consideration of the amount of work involved in the registration and control of street traders. That police certificate will entitle a person who is content with carrying his wares through the street in his hands, or in a small receptacle, to carry on his business. Street traders who have obtained that certificate from the Commissioner of Police and who are desirous of setting up a stall in the street for the purpose of their trade must obtain a further annual stall trader's licence from the Corporation, for which an additional fee of 5/- will be payable. That 5/- fee will to some extent, recoup the Corporation for the additional expense incurred by them in registering and controlling stall traders and removing from the streets the refuse left by them around their stalls. Power is reserved to the Corporation to make by-laws to prohibit stall trading, or any particular class of stall trading, in any specified street in the city, and generally regulating the business of stall trading with the view to ensuring the utmost cleanliness where articles of food are sold on stalls, and to prevent an undue accumulation of refuse as a result of that trading. Power is given to the Minister for Justice to make regulations prescribing the form of street traders' certificates and licences, the limits of the sizes of the receptacles to be carried by the street traders moving through the streets, the form of register to be kept, and the prohibition of stall trading in any particular street in the city. That power will be exercised only with a view to removing any undue interference with traffic through the streets.

Certain offences are created by the Bill and penalties prescribed for breaches of its provisions. Power is given to Justices of the District Court to revoke a street trader's licence if, in any case, they should think fit to do so. Certain necessary powers of seizure and sale are vested in the members of the Gárda Síochána.

This Bill is introduced primarily to deal with the situation which, undoubtedly, has arisen here in the city of Dublin, but it is thought wise to leave it open to any Corporation or Council of any city or town in the Saorstát which has a population exceeding 5,000, and which thinks in the interests of the people living in or having recourse to such city or town that regulations of this kind are required, to adopt the Bill, so that it would be open to Cork, Waterford, Wexford, or any other city in the Saorstát, which considers that the Bill would be an advantage, to do so.

Can the Minister say if he has any special reason for confining the operations of the Bill to towns with a population of 5,000?

No, it simply seems the commonsense provision. I doubt if the necessity for the Bill would be found to exist in any small towns through the country, but that is a matter we could consider in Committee. I would not have any very fixed views about that. The Bill is based on representations which reached us and which we found to be sound with regard to Dublin, and it will be open then to Corporations or Town Councils elsewhere in the cities or larger towns to adopt its provisions, if they think fit.

As it strikes me, the Bill in its intentions is good, but its methods seem to be difficult to understand. That is to say you are legislating to give authority to the police to do certain things regarding local trading, and in the same Bill you are legislating to give the Corporation power to make by-laws. The police who are under a central authority must make themselves conversant with all the by-laws which the Corporation may make, and in a general way there is a kind of cross reference right through the Bill which strikes one as being rather odd and not very satisfactory. I hoped that we would have gone towards the ideal of making the local authority the body which would be responsible for the conduct of affairs relating to street trading and like matters, but we are emphasising the centralisation idea by legislating in respect to Dublin and giving the police of Dublin those powers whether the Corporation—as it may be some day—or whatever the local authority may be, desire such powers to be enforced or not.

The point of immediate criticism to which I want to draw the Minister's attention is Section 10. It seems to me the powers granted are too drastic. "Any member of the Gárda Síochána may, without warrant, arrest any person whom he believes to be selling, or offering, exposing, or carrying for sale, any goods in contravention of this Act, or of any regulation or by-law made thereunder." Now, by-laws may be very trifling things in matters of ordinary detail. In matters of administrative detail they usually are, and to give power to a policeman to arrest a person for a breach of a by-law, which may be quite trifling in its incidence, is quite too drastic, and puts too much power into the hands of a policeman. I think, on that point, there should be an alteration made in the Bill. That is the only point of criticism I want to make at this stage.

In reference to the point made by Deputy Morrissey, I would like to inform the Minister that considerable complaints have been made, in towns with less than 5,000 inhabitants with which I am acquainted, to the effect that they have no power whatever to control these street traders. I think it would be well if the Minister considered the advisability of giving such powers under the Bill to urban districts with a population of less than 5,000.

I would like to say that I welcome this Bill. Numerous complaints have reached me from all parts of my constituency in connection with this matter of street trading. For some years past we have had a lot of visitors from the other side—people coming to these towns and selling drapery and goods of that kind to the great detriment of the local shopkeepers and the residents who, of course, have to pay heavy rates and taxes for the upkeep of their town. With regard to the points raised by Deputy Morrissey and Deputy Conlan, I think the Minister ought to give due consideration to the representations that they have made. There are two towns in my constituency which have a population of under 5,000, and it is from these that I have received most representations asking that something should be done in order to minimise this trouble. I would appeal to the Minister to give serious consideration to the matter. I welcome the Bill, and hope it will have a speedy passage through the House.

I do not know whether it is the intention, in the Bill or in the mind of the Minister, that the Bill should apply to such traders as farmers who come into towns on fair days to sell their stock. I do not know whether they would be classed as pedlars or hawkers, or whether they would come under the third category of street traders.

I am afraid that in the near future, if things do not improve, they are likely to become hawkers.

I desire to draw the Minister's attention to the practice, still prevalent in many parts of the country, of holding fairs on the public streets of towns. I think it is a practice which, if possible, should be done away with as being both unhygienic and as not being suitable for the object for which the fair is being held. In some towns special places are set apart for the holding of fairs, such as fair greens or market squares, but in the majority of cases—certainly throughout the South in the Saorstát— I am afraid the fairs are held all over the towns. That is not to the benefit of the farmer who is selling his stock or of those who are buying, and is certainly not to the benefit of the residents of the towns where fairs are held on the streets. As the Minister stated, this Bill deals more widely with pedlars on the one hand or hawkers on the other, than with street traders, but I would suggest to him that if under it he could in any way make a provision to regulate, or give powers to regulate, where and how these fairs should be held in the various towns—certainly in towns with a population of less than 5,000—he would be doing a good thing for the benefit of the country and of the towns concerned.

My objection to the Bill is that it does not go far enough. A large number of the people described as pedlars or hawkers are people who carry on what is called "moctioneering." It is certainly very unfair that these people should be allowed to set up movable establishments on the public streets and opposite the houses of traders who have to pay heavy rates and taxes. These people who go around the country have to pay no rates or taxes of any kind, except merely a fee for registration. I do not know if it would be possible for the Minister to so extend the definition of pedlar or hawker as to hit in some way the semipermanent establishments of "moctioneers," particularly in this city.

While they may not actually do the things which they are required to do in order to be a pedlar or a hawker, still they seem to do most things and to do most people, and although they are to a certain extent stationary, they are at the same time mobile and always moving from place to place. I do not know if the Minister would be willing —I do not suppose he is—to extend the scope of the Bill so as to put some check upon the abuses which these people have brought in, particularly in towns like Dublin and Cork. The Bill is all right as far as it goes, but I think that, far from repressing, it rather fosters and establishes the trade of these hawkers and pedlars. While many of them are respectable citizens, many others are what are described in the Press as "moctioneers." I wonder if the Minister would be willing to consider, not perhaps in this Bill, but in another, an extension of the powers for dealing with this particular abuse?

My reason for raising the question of towns with a population of less than 5,000 was that representations have been made to me from most towns in my constituency that on market and fair days quite a large number of these people—I do not know what you would call them, whether hawkers or pedlars—come into these towns and sell anything from a packet of pins to a suit of clothes. I have seen them myself do that on fair days and on market days. It is no unusual thing to see seven or eight of them set up in different parts of a town. Their presence tends to hold up the traffic, and I might mention that some of them have gone to the extent of defying the local urban authorities when an effort was made to get them removed. The urban authority, when it brought the matter to the notice of the Civic Guard, was informed by the Guards that they had no authority to remove these people. Now this evil is very prevalent in the smaller towns. These people come to these towns on market and fair days when, of course, a large number of people are in from the country. They try to catch the people from the country with suits of clothes, boots and other things at small prices. I think the Minister would be well advised to make inquiries with regard to this. Perhaps he would agree to insert an amendment himself, or he might be disposed to accept an amendment to that particular section when the Committee Stage of the Bill is reached.

I welcome the introduction of this Bill. It is very badly needed. For some considerable time past practically every town in the Saorstát has been visited by these heavy motor lorries, loaded with every article that you could possibly think of. All these goods, as a rule, are imported from Germany. Most of the stuff offered is shoddy and is presented in such a way to catch the eye. If an amendment were introduced to have towns with a population of less than 5,000 included in the Bill, I certainly would support it. These people come into the towns to sell the goods they bring with them on their motor lorries, while at the same time the local shopkeepers are burdened with heavy rates and taxes. The latter have to meet this unfair competition from people who pay nothing towards the local rates or taxes. Many of them, as a result, are doing very little business, and in some cases cannot keep on their assistants. I would appeal to the Minister to have included in the Bill towns with a population of less than 5,000.

I would like to say a word or two in reference to what Deputy Morrissey has stated. My point of view is not so much the interest of any particular section of persons, engaged in business or otherwise, but I know that in Munster—not so much in my own county—but in Tipperary and other counties, the number of people engaged, and, apparently, doing a lively business in the streets on fair days, is an obstruction of the traffic. It is really extraordinary, and the explanation is that there must be a tremendous amount of funny people in these particular areas.

Deputy Shaw made a very serious complaint, and possibly we are to measure the class of people living in the county Deputy Shaw represents by the fact that such people are able to trade in the district. But be that as it may, these people are certainly a public nuisance. I am not overstating the case when I say that those people who go round from fair day to fair day are a public nuisance. The origin of these people doing this kind of trade dates from the years of the Great War. In those years we had a lot of people coming over here to avoid military service in England and setting up business of one kind or another that kept them going for the time being, and that class of trade has remained since. They became jacks-of-all-trades, taking up the work of photographers and going in for photographic enlargements and so on, and they have remained with us still I think it is time that some real restriction was put upon those people.

Deputy Redmond raises a question which I would like the Minister to deal with. It is, perhaps, more properly a question for the Minister for Lands and Agriculture in conjunction with the Minister for Justice. That is with regard to cattle fairs in the public streets. I think the Minister for Agriculture would agree that there is more injury done to our cattle by holding fairs on the streets in towns than by holding them on the fair greens. Lots of cattle have to be continuously passing each other, at particular points, in these narrow streets, and they come in for a lot of punishment both in going to the fair and, afterwards, in going to the railway stations. I have seen it time and time again. The reason, I understand, why these fairs are held in the streets of some towns that have fair greens, and will not use them, is that objection is raised to the fair greens by some traders engaged in the licensed trade in these towns. Probably we will have the licensed trade up against us because we want to have things done right in this matter. It is a matter, however, that deserves very great attention, and as one who knows, I say that twice more injury is done by holding fairs in the streets of our towns where ordinary fair greens are available than if such fairs were held in the fair greens.

If it is possible for the Minister for Justice to bring these matters within the purview of this Bill, I think it ought to be done, and I, for one, would support it. We are aware that we will have the opposition of the licensed trade, but, whether or not, I say it is a disgrace to the country that the only argument put up in favour of retaining the fairs in the streets is the benefit that they are to the licensed trade. That the matter should be viewed solely from that point of view is a deplorable state of affairs.

Practically the only angle from which this Bill was approached by my Department was the angle of the obstruction of the traffic and abuses in the public streets. These other questions, whether the tendency of the times is that the travelling shop will replace the stationary shop, and so on, are matters rather outside the scope of the Bill, and remembering that this Bill arises, chiefly from representation by the police, and complaints from business people in cities, Deputies will understand the scope and object of the Bill. Deputy Johnson said that this kind of cross reference as between the public or the central government on the one side, and the Corporation on the other, is objectionable. Perhaps it may be explained on the basis that the general public are interested in the traffic point of view, and the police are necessarily interested from the point of view of keeping the streets clear for traffic and pedestrians, and the Corporation comes in rather on the public health side of matters—cleanliness and so on—to see that these stalls and street trading generally do not lead to insanitary conditions. Now, the objection to Section 10, while apparently sound—that is the matter of arrest without warrant and so on—is not, I think, too well founded in fact because it is a question of abuse, of the correction of abuse, which exists, and the Bill proposes to take no more power of dealing with it than exists in the case of a man who is drunk or is a nuisance or obstruction in the streets and the power will be used naturally in a rather conservative way. But if a person comes along and takes his stand at a busy point and is a considerable obstruction, and refuses to move on, there should lie in the police a power of arrest there and then and without the delay involved by securing a warrant because the obstruction and the abuse is a continuing offence and can only be dealt with by a summary arrest. That would apply, of course, more to sub-section (2) than to sub-section (1), but I would undertake to consider any amendments that Deputies might care to put up on the matter, with this reservation, that where there is an actual obstruction and where accompanied by a refusal to move on, the police would not be cumbered by a statutory provision making the securing of a warrant necessary. As to extending the Bill to towns with a smaller population than five thousand, that, too, is something that could be considered. I will undertake to look into it between this and the Committee Stage. Possibly in the case of any town with an urban council, assuming that the urban council are desirous of having the Bill extended to it, the population provision is unnecessary and might be waived.

Does the present Bill, which mainly applies to Dublin, include the urban areas surrounding Dublin?

The Deputy will find the answer to that, I think, in Section 14: "The Council of any County Borough... or of any urban county district, having a population, according to the last census, exceeding five thousand, may, by resolution passed after such notice as is hereinafter mentioned, adopt this Act." So that the councils of Blackrock, Pembroke, Rathmines and so forth would need specifically to adopt the Act. It will not apply automatically.

While the Bill does apply to the City it does not apply to the urban areas outside the city except it has the approval of the local authorities?

It is just questionable whether it is advisable.

The complaints which really led to the Bill came entirely from the City, and we, in the Department, at any rate, have no great evidence that such a Bill is required outside the City. We thought in that state of affairs that it would be wiser on our part simply to leave the adoption of the Bill optional to local authorities throughout the country.

It alters circumstances in this way, that the Bill will drive these particular traders out of the City probably into the urban areas and create a state of affairs that does not exist at the moment. Therefore I would urge on the Minister that he should reconsider that proposal and see if it is not desirable to make it compulsory also in these urban areas.

I would prefer to believe that if the necessity exists or arises in the future the local authorities will take appropriate action. The question of fairs which Deputy Redmond raised is a somewhat bigger question, and I have the impression that urban councils under the Towns Improvement Act, 1854, have all the necessary powers if they care to exercise them. If the Deputy's point is that there is a laxity in the exercise of those powers, that is something of course I can scarcely deal with at the moment, and certainly I cannot deal with it under the provisions of this Bill. There is a lot in what Deputy Gorey says. When the Gárda Síochána up and down the country have attempted to restrict the operations of fairs to a reasonable space in the centre of the town they have met with considerable protest and indignation from shopkeepers who prefer that the fairs should streel over the main street of the town. It is a very difficult matter for the police alone to deal with if the local authority, the urban council, does not exercise such statutory power as exists at the moment. I would have that point looked into between this stage of the Bill and the next stage, but I rather doubt if anything satisfactory to the Deputy's point of view can be introduced into this present Bill. Deputy Esmonde raised a point about people carrying on auctions, cheap auctions.

Dear auctions.

It seems to me that that class of business is generally carried on in shops or in some kind of premises that would bring them outside the scope of this Bill. The Bill purports only to deal with obstruction of pedestrian traffic and the complaints of traders in the city that people cannot get free access to their premises. It does not attempt further to restrict business of any kind, even of such a kind as the Deputy has mentioned, so that I think we cannot deal with that particular matter.

Will the Minister say whether he contemplates that the Corporation shall prohibit street trading entirely? Paragraph A, Section 6, rather suggests that that would be in their power.

In any specified street.

They may specifiy all the streets.

They may, but in fact, I do not think they will. Supposing for a moment a popularly elected local authority wanted to, it is doubtful whether they should not have the power, but I think that in fact what they will do is to confine them to particular streets where they will not occasion very much obstruction to traffic. They cannot, at any rate, under Section 6, prohibit them simply by one general regulation saying there shall be no street trading. They would have to do it by the process of blocking the streets by name.

All the useful streets.

Question put and agreed to. Third Stage fixed for Wednesday, 27th January.
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