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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 19 Jan 1926

Vol. 14 No. 1

STATISTICS BILL, 1925—SECOND STAGE

I do not intend to delay the Dáil long with the presentation of this Bill for Second Reading, mainly for this reason, that the Bill is one which has been demanded on a score of occasions by members of the House, and I think its provisions meet or seem to me to meet, in so far as they can be met, most of the arguments put forward by outsiders for the compilation of statistics in greater detail, covering a greater variety of subjects and under the control, as far as that can be economically and efficiently achieved, of one Department of Government. It has been a serious source of objection for many years in this country that there has not been sufficient provision of statistical material of what are described as informative statistics rather than the ordinary administrative type, and it has often been said that the remarks applied to statistics in the whole of the late United Kingdom applied with even greater force here, that there was hardly any reform of any type, social, commercial, banking or otherwise, which could be properly achieved simply because there was not at hand the necessary information to direct those who sought a change.

The Bill is simple enough in its terms and it is certainly decidedly simple in its aim. It sets out in Section 2 the points on which statistical information may be collected and for a series of clauses after that it shows distinctly its tendency, which is that the compilation and the publication of statistical matters should be centralised in so far as that is possible. If I were going into details to explain any delay that there has been in introducing the Bill I would stress very definitely the difficulties that have been met in seeking to get assent to the general proposition that the collection and publication of statistics should be centralised and should be placed under one Department of Government. The arguments and objections that have been used against that have not been raised simply for the sake of objection. There are a variety of matters that have to be dealt with: the particular seasons of the year in which one Department requires information to be collected, as distinct from another; the form in which information has to be published, different forms required by different Departments; and while this does not specially and rigidly set up a centralised Department it, as I say, shows this tendency, that while allowing, as it does, under Section 3, the collection of different statistics to individual Ministers or heads of Departments, nevertheless there is allowance also under Section 6 for consultation, and in fact an insistence on consultation as between Ministers, leaving it to be recognised right through that the Minister named in the Bill as the Minister for the purpose of its execution shall have certain coordinating power, and that it is incumbent on him as far as possible to co-ordinate all statistics, no matter by whom they may be collected.

One of the points ordinarily urged with regard to the collection of statictics is that whatever inquiries are necessary to their collection must not be such as to excite irritation or resentment amongst those from whom the information has been obtained, and fears have been expressed on a good many occasions by those who have to give the information required for statistical purposes that the returns may be disclosed in such a way as to give information relating to individuals or individual firms or corporations. Sections 13 and 14 give as much protection as reasonably can be expected so as to appease those who may have fears with regard to the disclosure of information. Section 15, of course, also has a repercussion on that point. Sections 14 and 15 go together, the officers being commanded not to disclose the information. A penalty has been set up to punish any officer for an abuse of his office.

The purpose of the Bill, therefore, is to have statistics collected on a greater variety of matters, and possibly in greater detail, than has hitherto been the case. The tendency of the Bill is to have that centralised as far as possible in one Department of Government, but it recognises than an allowance has to be made, and that that cannot at the start be rigidly insisted upon. Hence the allowance made in Section 3. As far as it is reasonably possible it will be the aim of my Department to urge upon the Executive Council that the centralising process should go on as quickly as possible, and that we should arrive in the shortest possible time at the position where a single Department of Government shall compile and publish all the statistics relating to the points set out in Section 2, and matters incidental thereto.

I want to welcome this Bill and to express my satisfaction on its introduction. I hope that it will lead to quick results. If I may be allowed to make a suggestion, even before the Bill becomes effective as an Act, it would be that the Statistics Department will revert to the practice of printing rather than neostyling, as in the case of the statistics they issue at present. They are very much easier to read when they are printed, and I think whatever saving there may be as between neostyling and printing is more than offset by the cost to the eyesight and the patience of the reader.

Would it be possible under this Bill to make arrangements to compile statistics in connection with the matter about which I made inquiries some time ago—that is, the comparative cost of certain articles in this country and in England? In view of the arguments and discussions there have been with regard to the imposition of protective tariffs I think it is very important that we should have all the information. I think also that all the information we get should be thoroughly reliable—that is, that it should not come from interested quarters or sources. In that connection I would hope that information we get from this Government Department would be above suspicion in every way, and that the fact that the Government have made themselves the champions of protective tariffs will not in any way cast suspicion on the accuracy of the information. But the information I want is this: I want comparative statements with regard to the prices which prevail in England for certain articles in common use, as, for instance, a pair of boots manufactured in England compared with a pair of boots, of similar quality and type, in so far as type can be exactly determined, manufactured in Ireland. The same thing might apply to any of the articles that are protected—clothes and articles of furniture, for instance. The Minister, in his reply to my question, stated that it would not be worth the expense involved to get this information, but my opinion is that it would be worth it, and I would ask him to state if it would be possible for him to send his officials to England to get this information.

I will get the point referred to by Deputy Johnson examined. I am not clear at all as to what the saving is by neostyling rather than printing.

It may be that there was some reason for the change from printing to neostyling. I assume it was on the score of expense.

Yes, I admit it was on the score of expense, but I say I am not clear as to what the amount saved is, as to whether it is considerable or whether it is something we might easily neglect. Deputy Heffernan has asked me if it would be possible to compile statistics on certain points. If he reads Section 2 I think he will see that it is almost possible to have statistics compiled on anything, but it is not mandatory that statistics should be compiled on all such points.

The Minister knows quite well what I mean. I mean is it the intention of his Department so to compile them? Of course I know that it is possible.

The intention of the Department is to get statistics on the matters referred to in Section 2— Agriculture, Industry and Commerce, among other matters, and at the beginning it states: "Statistics relating to any matter affecting the general economic and other activities and conditions in Saorstát Eireann."

Now, how far that programme can be carried out at once is not a matter that I can state here; how far even the further point the Deputy urged could ever be gone into, that of getting the statistical officers of a Government Department to—they never could have powers—get certain rights with regard to the production of statistics for their inspection from England, so that a comparison might be made here, would be a matter of arrangement, I presume, between the two Governments. Assurances might have to be given as to the use of the information, assurances greater than those given with regard to the use and non-disclosure of the matters dealt with here. I cannot say, however, how that is going to get away from the doubt that is apparently in the Deputy's mind. If the Government is the champion of protective tariffs, and if any information coming from that Governmental source is to be suspect, how is the Deputy's mind going to be cleared of suspicion with regard to statistics to be got out by arrangement between that suspect Government and, I presume, an equally suspect Government on the other side, since it is also indulging in certain tariff experiments?

Do I understand from the Minister that the Government on the other side is indulging in certain experimental protective tariffs?

There are experiments in protective tariffs being tried in England.

Does the Minister suggest that the chiefs of his Department are the tools of any political party that might be in power?

Then what does the Minister suggest?

I am alluding to the impossibility of clearing the mind of a certain Farmer Deputy of suspicion with regard to the production of certain information. The matters to which the Deputy referred would, I think, form the subject of inquiries immediately if this Bill were to become law. I think, when asked for information by Deputy Heffernan some time last year, I referred to the weakness of our powers with regard to the getting of information, and said that we were dependent entirely on what they choose to give us. If we seek under this to make certain inquiries in the interests of the State, then we will have compulsory powers. To that extent the Deputy's point is met, and I think the Deputy can, by virtue of questioning, if he finds the matter is not being carried out, urge on the Department having charge of the collection of statistics to secure all information required to give the people in this country a proper view of how the tariff experiment is working. In so far as we have now changed from the position of being dependent upon what certain people liked to give us, and are now in a position to demand that from them, we are going along the same road as the Deputy.

I would like here to make one statement which I should have made at the opening. I spoke, I think, when my own Estimates were being considered last year, of the intention to have a census of industrial production this year. When I mentioned that I did not know it was intended to have a census of population this year. As the census of population has been decided upon this year, and as it will involve a tremendous strain on the statistical officers of my Department, it would not be possible to have both going together; it will therefore be necessary to have the census of industrial production postponed and give the census of population priority. To that extent I relieve myself of the promise I made.

Will the Minister give us a definition of census of industrial production? Does it include agricultural production? We have heard a lot about the necessity for the census of industrial production, but I would like to have an understanding as to what is meant by it. Does it include agricultural production as well as ordinary industrial production?

I think this is hardly the time for the Deputy to put that point, inasmuch as I am now announcing the postponement of the taking of a census of industrial production. If the Deputy wants agricultural production investigated, we can announce, in indicating the postponement of a census of industrial production, the postponement also of an inquiry into whatever the Deputy has in mind with regard to agriculture. The census of population has to take priority this year over anything else, except the returns which will be published in the ordinary way. No new venture, no new collection of statistics, will be entered upon this year prior to the taking of the census of population. Anything else beyond what is being done in the ordinary way will be postponed.

Question—"That the Bill be now read a Second Time"—put and agreed to. Third Stage ordered for Tuesday, 26th January.
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