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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Apr 1926

Vol. 15 No. 2

BUDGET STATEMENT.

In the past financial year there were no political events which produced any unfavourable financial or economic reaction. The elimination of Article 5 of the Treaty relieved the country of a contingent liability which might possibly, at a later stage, have become a serious burden. During the year the price of National Loan rose gradually and more than once in recent months it has touched the peak figure of 99. Deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank rose during the twelve months ended 31st March from £2,177,000 to £2,402,000. In the same period the amount for Savings Certificates rose by nearly £600,000. The present financial year opened with a debt outstanding of £13,653,270, made up as follows:

National Loan

£9,435,000

Compensation Stock

914,850

Savings Certificates

1,768,650

Ways and Means Advances

1,113,000

Annuities under the Telegraph Acts

421,770

The total thus obtained does not include the liability assumed under the Agreement of December, 1925. Against the debt outstanding there may be set a figure of £1,267,700 due to the Exchequer by the Unemployment Fund. A couple of years ago I described the sum due by the Unemployment Fund as an asset of doubtful value. The position now is that there is every prospect of the amount being repaid. The Exchequer balance on the 31st March, was £233,250. The State debt outstanding at the beginning of last year was £13,360,353 and the Exchequer balance was £1,681,192. If we deduct the amount of the Exchequer balance on the 31st March last from the debt outstanding at that date we get a net figure of £13,420,020. The corresponding figure for the previous year was £11,679,161.

The original estimate of the tax revenue for the year 1925-26 was £22,554,000. Deputies will remember, however, that the Budget provisions last year included not only the relief of local rates to the extent of £599,011 and a remission of postal charges, but also the reduction of taxation by £1,189,000. The revised estimate of tax revenue, therefore, was £21,365,000. The amount actually collected exceeded the estimate by £232,000, reaching a total of £21,597,000. The yield of the various Customs duties was £6,958,000, or £38,000 more than the estimate. In the case of the Excise duties the yield was substantially less than the sum anticipated. The aggregate collected under this heading during the year was £6,336,000, against an estimate of £7,120,000. The deficiency arose from a decline in the yield of the beer and spirit duties. In the case of spirits the yield of the Excise duty was £2,347,000, against an estimate of £2,600,000, showing a deficit of £253,000. As compared with the previous twelve months, the duty collected was down by £349,000. A substantial portion of the decreased yield of tax was due not to reduced consumption but to anticipation of a decrease in duty and a consequent diminution of the quantities taken out of bond during the last two months of the financial year. The latter cause reduced the amount of tax paid by £130,000. In my Budget statement last year I mentioned that the yield of spirit duty in 1924 had fallen short of the estimate by £540,000. In 1925-26, but for abnormal restriction of the stocks held by traders at the end of the year, it would have been only £123,000 below the estimate and £220,000 below the actual yield of the previous year. The collection in 1924-25 was less than the collection in 1923-24 by £490,000. It is apparent that the decline in the consumption of spirits was much less rapid last year than it was the year before. It is calculated that the yield of spirit duty in the present financial year will about equal the actual receipts of last year. Such a result would of course represent a further decline in consumption to an extent equivalent to £130,000 of duty. The Excise duty on beer was expected to produce £4,020,000 during the past twelve months. The sum obtained was £3,449,000, or £571,000 less than the estimate. As compared with the previous year the decline in yield was £770,000. Here again an abnormal factor has to be taken into account. During the year certain brewers decided to reduce the amount of stock held as export reserve. The result was that for some months payments of drawback were normal while receipts of duty were unusually low. The resultant loss to the Exchequer was about £250,000. The decline in yield was therefore ascribable to a fall in consumption to the extent of about £520,000. It is not considered that the sum obtained from beer duty in the present year will be less than the amount actually collected last year. That means that the estimated fall in consumption in the Saorstát will not exceed 50,000 standard barrels against a fall last year of 104,000 standard barrels. The direct taxes all gave results better than were anticipated. Estate Duty yielded £125,000 more than the estimate. Income tax and super-tax produced £325,000 more than the estimate, but £245,000 less than in the previous year. Corporation Profits Tax gave £488,000, or more than double the sum anticipated in the Estimates; but the figure was swollen by a large amount of arrears. The motor vehicle duties produced £517,000 as against £458,500 in the previous year.

On the whole the revenue figures are satisfactory. The duty collected on motor cars and parts was £10,000 more than in 1924-25. Tobacco yielded £20,000 more than the estimate. Although the scope of the entertainments tax was somewhat restricted last year the amount obtained was down by only £5,000. The fall in the amount obtained from income-tax and supertax resulted partly from the reduction of the rate from 5/- to 4/- last year and partly from the fact that the pool of arrears is nearing exhaustion. The sole indication in the revenue returns of serious economic depression in the country is to be found in the figures relating to the beer and spirit duties, and even they show that the people of the Saorstát were able to spare about £17,500,000 for the purchase of alcoholic liquor last year.

Last year I divided the expenditure set out in the estimates into expenditure which might be defrayed out of revenue and expenditure for which borrowing might take place. By so doing it was possible to give relief in local and national taxation, including postal charges, to the extent of almost £1,850,000. This figure allows for the fact that the reduction in the rate of income tax could be only partially effective in the first year. Consequently the remission announced in April, 1925, will further relieve the taxpayer to the extent of £450,000 or £500,000 this year. The position therefore is that apart altogether from any fall in yield at the existing rate, we are taxing to produce nearly £500,000 less than last year and something like £2,300,000 less than in the year 1924-25.

In deciding last year that outlay of an abnormal and non-recurrent character, even though it was not, strictly speaking, in the nature of capital expenditure, might properly be provided for by borrowing, the Government was quite clear that it would be an error to pick out all expenditure which was of other than an entirely normal character and add it to the list of items for which debt might be incurred. It would be possible on a close scrutiny of the Estimates to find in any year a considerable number of sub-heads which were temporarily swollen by some unusual set of circumstances. By adding together the abnormal amounts shown in all such sub-heads, a substantial sum might be obtained, which, if deducted from the total estimated expenditure of the year, would enable us to calculate the amount required to be raised by taxation at an appreciably reduced figure. But such a procedure would put us wrong by giving a false result, and would, in a comparatively short time, prejudice very seriously the interests of the State and the people. Abnormal expenditure under particular heads in one year is likely to be followed by abnormal expenditure of somewhat similar amounts under different heads in the next year. Moreover, even in the same year unusual costs in one direction are frequently balanced to some extent by exceptional savings in another. These considerations do not, of course, apply to expenditure such as arises under our Property Losses Compensation Vote, nor to excess Army charges in the first few years after a violent civil struggle. But if they are not borne in mind in regard to other abnormal spending, the country may find that, without intending to do so, it has begun to pile up debt to meet the ordinary costs of Government. If such a position were reached it would very speedily produce banking and currency difficulties of a serious character, and it would, for a time at any rate, provide an irresistible inducement to reckless expenditure. The present Government is not prepared to reduce or keep down taxation by resort to methods which would be unsound and dangerous to national credit and stability. At the same time, it is fully alive to the necessity of not charging the taxpayer in the coming year with any sums which he might reasonably be allowed to pay by instalments. We are therefore prepared to cut close to the bone in separating capital and abnormal charges from those which must be met out of current income. An examination of the Estimates gives us the following list of items that might rightly be deducted from the total for the purpose of arriving at the amount we must pay out of revenue:—

A. Vote 8.—Local Loans, £500,000 provision in respect of new capital.

B. Vote 11.—Public Works and Buildings, £560,000 out of a total provision of £714,790 in respect of sites and buildings, new works, alterations and additions, £15,000 being the total provision in respect of compensation for commandeered premises, £108,000 the total provision in respect of drainage works and acquisition of a dredger.

C. Vote 14.—Property Losses Compensation, £2,170,500, the entire provision.

D. Vote 28.—Universities and Colleges, £40,000 being capital grants.

E. Vote 52.—Department of Agriculture, £56,800 in respect of the proposed new faculties of General Agriculture in Dublin and Dairy Science in Cork.

F. Vote 54.—Land Commission, £200,000, being that portion of a total provision of £300,000 for the improvement of estates which may fairly be regarded as abnormal.

G. Vote 55.—Advances to Agricultural Credit Societies, £75,000, the whole of the estimate.

H. Vote 63.—Army, £475,470, the amount by which the Army estimate exceeds £2,000,000.

I. Vote 64.—Army pensions, £179,000, being amount by which the provision of £430,000 exceeds the sum expected to be required in a normal year.

J. Central Fund Services, £50,000. Capital subscription to the Industrial Trust Company of Ireland.

The aggregate of the deductible items under these ten heads is £4,429,770, and I am not satisfied that there are any other items which should be set aside with them. The provision in this year's Estimates for Relief Works is only £50,000, and I think it would be taking too optimistic a view to hold that we are not likely to have an average expenditure of at least that amount for some years ahead. If, however, a supplementary estimate for relief works has to be taken before the 31st March next, I think we may agree that the excess sum required should be borrowed. The provision for housing in the Local Government Vote is very large, £348,000, and there is some support for the contention that £100,000 might be regarded as abnormal. On the other hand, housing is a great and urgent problem about which no more can be said than that we are making a little impression on it. On balance it seems preferable to regard the whole provision for housing as normal and recurrent.

The total estimate of expenditure on supply services is £25,567,909, and on Central Fund services £3,069,519, making an aggregate of £28,637,428. If from this we deduct £4,429,770, we get an estimated sum of £24,207,658 to be spent on purposes for which the State ought not to borrow. Deputies have had in their hands the White Paper showing the estimates of Receipts and Expenditure for the year ending 31st March, 1927. The estimated yield of taxation on the existing basis is there shown at £20,578,000, to which must be added £3,134,430 estimated income from non-tax sources, giving an aggregate of £23,712,430. If this figure is compared with the estimate of normal recurrent expenditure already arrived at, we get an estimated deficit of £495,228.

Perhaps at this point I might interpolate a word with reference to last year's figures and certain calculations published by the Dublin Chamber of Commerce. I might say that during the past couple of years I have received many helpful suggestions from, and have had many useful discussions with, the Chamber of Commerce, for which I am very thankful. I just want to point out, however, that the calculations with regard to last year's figures, which they published, unfortunately contain certain omissions which throw them out very seriously. They give the total of abnormal expenditure last year at £2,678,491. Now, a portion of that was not really our expenditure; so far as £709,000 of that sum was concerned we simply acted as a conduit pipe, receiving the money from the British. There are also omissions in regard to the misdivisions of expenditure on public works and buildings. The expenditure on the abnormal portion of the activities carried on under this vote was something like £200,000 less than the sum shown; so that at once there may be deducted from the £1,890,000 odd shown in the table prepared by the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, a sum of £900,000 odd. I had a few moments' conversation with the members of the Sub-Committee, and as our conversation was too brief sufficiently to go into matters that we were dealing with, a certain misunderstanding occurred. I do not say that any abnormal expenditure has been incurred out of normal revenue. As a matter of fact, the £900,000 which I referred to as abnormal expenditure defrayed out of revenue was fully covered by abnormal revenue contained in the income tax vote alone.

I was at the point where I said that on a calculation already made we got an estimated deficit of £495,228. Before deciding whether it is necessary to increase taxation we have to consider whether it is likely that the total of £24,207,658 will all be required for actual expenditure in connection with those services for which we must provide out of revenue. Experience shows that even estimates containing no sub-heads devoted to special or abnormal objects often prove at the end of the year to have been appreciably in excess of requirements. With the closest estimation that could ever be looked for, the margin of excess on the supply services as a whole would not be negligible. There are 66 Votes comprising 529 sub-heads of expenditure. It is the duty of a Department in framing its estimate to ask under each sub-head for sufficient money to provide for the purpose of the sub-head and more particularly it is its duty to ask for a total sum sufficient to meet the probable expenditure from the Vote as a whole. The idea is that neither should the Dáil have to be asked for a supplementary sum nor should any great percentage of the Vote remain unexpended. In practice some Votes prove insufficient and some prove too ample. But Departments naturally and not improperly lean against putting down a figure that may involve bringing in a supplementary estimate. Some of our Departments have not yet been able to estimate as closely as would be desirable. In consequence, the substantial marginal sum which the supply estimates in the aggregate must always contain is at present somewhat swollen. In Great Britain no account is taken for budgeting purposes of this marginal sum. The system there is to use the realised surplus of the year for the reduction of debt. Any portion of the surplus due to the margin of overestimation goes with the rest. Our position requires different treatment. We have a comparatively small National Debt with already adequate sinking fund provisions. It is neither necessary nor desirable in our circumstances that the taxpayer should be obliged to provide anything additional towards keeping our debt total at an abnormally low level. In the opinion of the Executive Council it is absolutely sound in principle when we are trying to get at the amount of revenue required to deduct from the estimate of recurrent expenditure such amount as probably represents the margin of over-estimation.

It is extremely difficult, owing to the number of new services that have been undertaken since the establishment of the Free State and the abnormal conditions under which Departments have been working until comparatively recently, to arrive at a figure. I am satisfied, however, that the margin of over-estimation, together with such economies as may safely be counted on, will not be less than £650,000. Such a figure would seem to indicate the possibility of a small amount being available for minor reliefs in taxation. But account must be taken of two unfavourable factors which have not yet been mentioned. As the Exchequer balance is now very low, it must be anticipated that borrowing in some form will soon have to be undertaken, and that the greater part of the £4,429,770, estimated to be required for capital and abnormal expenditure, will actually have to be got from the banks or the public before 31st March next. Consequently the provision made in the estimate for Central Fund Services for interest and sinking fund will have to be exceeded. On the other hand the revenue collected is almost certain to fall short substantially of the estimate shown in the White Paper. A new arrangement, which I shall explain later, is being adopted in regard to double income tax relief. The change-over from the old system to the new will involve delays in collection of this year's tax. Consequently, although it is expected that the old arrears will be almost completely wiped off this year, certain new arrears will arise and thereby bring the yield of tax down below the estimate in the White Paper. Taking everything into consideration, it is fairly clear that while we need not increase taxation we would not be justified in reducing it.

It must be obvious to Deputies that there can be no question of gambling on the yield of taxation being better than the estimate. Hitherto we have had excess yields of income tax, because arrears were got in more rapidly than was expected, but now the pool is near exhaustion and rapid collection will only mean that we will get more in the earlier part of the year and less in the latter. Estimation of the yield of beer and spirit duties at the figure actually collected last year hardly errs on the side of conservatism. On the other hand it is not possible to reduce tax rates in anticipation of steam-saw economies. I do not want at this point to deal at great length with questions of expenditure. I should like, however, to repeat my statement of last year that economies in the public services can only be effected by detailed restriction and adjustment and by gradual simplification of machinery. I should add that they can be effected very slowly indeed in face of a persistent popular demand for new services and further State activity.

The institution of new services not only means that additional expenditure is incurred, but it also means that officers whose special business it is to restrict expenditure have their energies diverted from pruning the old services to merely checking the growth of the new. The new services that have been undertaken since the Free State was established were essential, because under the old regime so many of the things that ought to have been done long ago were left undone. The point, however, has now been reached when even very desirable and much-desired developments must be postponed to the task of tightening up the existing machine. At the same time it cannot be too clearly stated that any appreciable reduction in tax-rates can be brought about only by increased national productivity. This time next year the yield of income tax at 4/- will have to be estimated at from £750,000 to £1,000,000 lower than I am estimating it for the purpose of this Budget. The probable yield of the various protective duties will also have to be put much lower next year than now. In view of these facts it will be a great accomplishment merely to keep taxes at their present level next year. If Deputies will consider the objects on which State expenditure takes place, they will see that while certain small reductions in expenditure can be suggested easily enough and ought not to be neglected, the big reductions that would give relief of any importance to the taxpayer are hard to find. I have already indicated £24,207,658 as the estimate of normal recurrent expenditure for the year. Let us look for a moment at some of the heads under which that sum is paid out. The amount to be paid out in relief of local rates, including Road Fund grant, is estimated at £2,510,000. Debt charges, including payments to the British Government in respect of local loans, will absorb £1,660,150; old age pensions, £2,557,300; superannuation, £1,800,326; police, £1,517,074; education, not including universities and colleges, £4,319,503; Post Office, £2,462,850; Army, £2,000,000; and revenue, £698,980. The aggregate estimated expenditure under these nine heads is £19,526,189, and it is a total which does not seem susceptible of any very rapid reduction. The figure representing grants to local authorities leaves out of account very substantial sums paid in respect of child-welfare schemes and the treatment of tuberculosis. The amount required for debt charges will increase as fresh borrowing is effected. Superannuation payments will probably increase in consequence of the so-called economy campaign.

As the Gárda Síochána is composed mainly of young men who are at low points on their incremental scales, the cost will increase for a number of years. Education costs will probably increase somewhat. In view of the dearth of suitable candidates for training as teachers, salaries cannot economically be further reduced. The increased expenditure which compulsory attendance will entail will exceed anything that can be saved by súch economies as amalgamation of schools. Post Office wages are low, and any big fall in total expenditure can hardly be expected. Revenue staffs cannot be reduced, and if there were new protective tariffs they might have to be increased. Army expenditure may be brought a little below £2,000,000, but until the country is settled enough to admit of a militia system being established, it cannot be very greatly less than the figure mentioned. The position broadly is that, out of the remaining figure of £4,681,469 we must, as well as affording relief to the taxpayer, provide for the services of Government represented by 49 out of our 66 Votes. Out of this figure we have to provide for the Oireachtas, Ministry of Finance, Public Works and Buildings, Office of Public Works, Rates on Government Property, Stationery Office, Valuation Office, Law Charges. Beet Sugar Subsidy, Universities and Colleges, Ministry of Justice, Prisons, all the Courts and all Judicial Salaries and Pensions, Ministry of Local Government, National Health Insurance, Department of Agriculture, Land Commission, Ministry of Industry and Commerce, Ministry of Fisheries, Army Pensions, Ministry of External Affairs, and all the minor services. Anybody who can provide adequately for all these services out of £4,683,000, and at the same time devote over four, three, or even two millions to the relief of taxation, owes it to humanity to make himself known. There is an idea abroad that the way to reduce taxation is to reduce the salaries of higher civil servants. Without discussing questions of efficiency or Treaty rights, I shall say a word or two about the financial aspect of the matter. If all civil servants whose salaries, including bonus, are £500 and over—that is basic salaries of £330—suffered a 20 per cent. cut, the saving would be nominally £180,000. If, in addition, the civil servants whose salaries, including bonus, are £750 and over, suffered a further 20 per cent. cut, making a total cut in their case of 40 per cent., there would be a further nominal saving of £86,000, or a total of £266,000. But the reduction of salaries would mean a reduction in income tax yield amounting to something very near £50,000. So that the real saving to the State would be about £216,000, representing a relief in taxation equal to almost a ¼d. in the lb. on sugar.

Whatever economies may be effected during the year, there is clearly no prospect of savings of such a sensational character as would justify refusal to accept the estimated total required for recurrent expenditure as the figure upon which our taxation provisions must be based. Therefore, the changes in taxation which we recommend have not for their object a reduction of the sums to be taken into the Exchequer. But we hope that some of them will be welcome at least to some tax-payers if not to others. The most important of them relates to a very vexed matter.

The difficulties arising out of double taxation of incomes have been the subject of discussion since the Saorstát became a distinct fiscal unit in April, 1923.

The income tax code which we inherited provides for—

(a) The taxation of all income accruing to any person resident in the area of jurisdiction wherever such income arises, and

(b) the taxation of all income arising within the jurisdiction to any person wherever resident.

In consequence, directly the Saorstát became a separate fiscal unit, double taxation became operative in the case of income arising in Great Britain to a Saorstát resident and also in the case of income arising in the Saorstát to a British resident.

Owing to the introduction of income taxes into the fiscal systems of several of the overseas Dominions the British legislature had, in 1916, granted a measure of relief from United Kingdom income tax to any person who proved that he had also paid "any colonial income tax" in respect of the same part of his income. Following the report of the last Royal Commission on the income tax a more comprehensive system of relief in respect of income which was liable both to United Kingdom income tax and to Dominion income tax was enacted in Section 27 of the Finance Act, 1920.

Early in 1923 we were faced with the necessity of effecting an immediate arrangement with the British Government for double income tax relief, and it was practically inevitable that the arrangement concluded should follow the lines of the British scheme embodied in the 1920 Act for the following reasons:—(1) The British authorities were at that time unwilling to consider an arrangement on any other basis, and (2) the matter was too urgent to permit of any prolonged consideration of alternative schemes. Double income tax was being levied as from the 6th April, 1923, and a scheme of relief had to be evolved at once.

The agreement with regard to income tax embodied in the Double Taxation Relief Order (No. 1 of 1923) was accordingly concluded. It was never regarded by the Saorstát Government as being a completely satisfactory arrangement, because whilst in the vast bulk of cases it did give complete relief from double income tax the procedure was necessarily complicated, and it was very difficult for the individual taxpayer to understand the technicalities which were inherent in the system.

In September, 1921, the Financial Committee of the League of Nations, which was entrusted with the study of double taxation, decided to ask certain economists to prepare a report on the matter. Four eminent economists— Professor Bruins (Commercial University, Rotterdam), Professor Senator Einaudi (Turin University), Professor Seligman (Columbia University, New York), and Sir Josiah Stamp, K.B.E. (London University)—were invited to undertake the work, and their report, which was submitted in April, 1923, will be found in the League of Nations Booklet (E.F.S. 73 F. 19) published by the League, a copy of which I have caused to be put in the Library.

In April, 1925, I wrote to the Chancellor of the Exchequer suggesting that arrangements be made for the Revenue authorities on both sides to get into touch with each other and explore the question of double taxation afresh in the light of the report of the economists to the League of Nations. This suggestion was adopted and I informed the Dáil in the course of the debate on the Report Stage of the Financial Resolutions on the 6th May, 1925. Since then the matter has been receiving the close attention of the Revenue authorities on both sides and the result is the agreement which will be placed in the hands of Deputies to-day.

In concluding their report the Committee of Economists appointed by the League of Nations state:

"On the subject of income taxation in its developed form, the reciprocal exemption of the non-resident... is the most desirable practical method of avoiding the evils of double taxation and should be adopted wherever countries feel in a position to do so." (Booklet, p. 51.)

The new agreement to which the House will be asked to give legislative effect in the Finance Act is based on this principle. It aims, in fact, at the avoidance of double taxation as far as possible and in this respect differs radically from the existing arrangement under which double taxation is accepted, but each country gives partial relief from its own tax.

Under the new arrangement, a person who, for any year, is resident in the Saorstát, but not resident in Great Britain or Northern Ireland, will be entitled to claim exemption from British income tax in respect of income arising in that year in Great Britain or Northern Ireland and, conversely, a person resident in Great Britain or Northern Ireland, and not resident in the Saorstát will be entitled to claim exemption from Saorstát income tax in respect of income arising in that year in the Saorstát.

As a corollary a person exempted in either country will be chargeable to tax in the other country to the extent of the full income exempted subject, of course, to the usual deductions and allowances.

For example, the Bank of Ireland, which at present pays both British income tax and Saorstát income tax (less double taxation relief) on a large part of its profits, will, under the new arrangement, be chargeable to Saorstát tax only. It will deduct Saorstát tax at the full standard rate from its dividends, and a Northern shareholder who is not resident in the Saorstát will be entitled to claim from the Saorstát revenue repayment of the full tax deducted from his dividends by the bank. He will be liable to return the dividends for assessment to British income tax in the ordinary course, and no question of double income tax relief will arise.

There remains the case of a person who, within the meaning of the Income Tax Acts, is in any year resident both in Great Britain or Northern Ireland, and in the Saorstát. The case of these people is dealt with in Article 2 and Article 3 (c) of the agreement. The broad principle, stated roughly, is that such a person should be assessed in each country on the whole of his income, as if he were resident in that country only, and that double income tax relief, to the extent of the lower of the two taxes, should be given, such relief being borne equally by the two Exchequers.

The administrative arrangements to give effect to the scheme are still under consideration. I would call the attention of Deputies to the provisions of Article 5 of the agreement, which authorises the Revenue authorities on both sides to make arrangements for carrying out the agreement and in particular to make such arrangements as may be practicable to avoid the collection of both British and Saorstát income tax on the same income without allowance for any relief due under the agreement. At the moment I am not in a position to give detailed information as to the arrangements beyond saying that we contemplate the setting up of a clearing house to give all possible assistance in the case of double residents, and also to facilitate the settlement of disputed claims by single residents. It will, I hope, be possible to give more detailed information by the time the Finance Bill is in the hands of Deputies, and I will consider the practicability of having an explanatory memorandum as to the new arrangement circulated at the same time as the Bill. Deputies will understand that in the meantime it is not possible for me to give detailed information concerning matters which are still under discussion with the British authorities.

Just a word as to the financial results of the new arrangement. On the one hand we give up the revenue we at present obtain from companies controlled in England in respect of profits earned here, and generally we give up tax on income arising in the Saorstát to British residents, who are not resident in the Saorstát. On the other hand, we get full tax, instead of part tax, from our own residents who are not also resident in Great Britain or Northern Ireland on the whole of the income arising from their investments in Great Britain or Northern Ireland. The probable effect on our Exchequer of the whole arrangement has been given careful and prolonged consideration, and it is calculated that the result to our revenue will be to leave us approximately where we are at present.

We are satisfied that in other respects the scheme will give us very substantial advantages. It will be much more convenient to administer. It will eliminate a great deal of the irritation incidental to the present system, and it will do away with the hardship which the present system admittedly inflicts on the smaller shareholders in Guinness's and one or two other companies. Finally, we hope that, after the initial difficulties and the difficulties incidental to the change over from one system to the other have been overcome, it will enable us to create the nucleus of a staff to take in hand the question of income tax evasion in the Saorstát, thereby resulting in a substantial gain to the Exchequer, and a more equitable administration of the tax as between one citizen and another.

The adoption of the residence basis for charging income tax makes it necessary in the view of the Executive Council to follow the changes made in the British Finance Bill last year in regard to the rates of estate duty and super-tax. The position at present is that on estates valued from £12,500 to £500,000 our rates of death duty are from 1 per cent. to 6 per cent. lower than the rates in force in Great Britain. For instance, an estate valued at £19,000 would bear duty in the Saorstát at the rate of 6 per cent.; in Great Britain the rate would be 8 per cent. An estate of £60,000 would pay 11 per cent. here and 16 per cent. in England. At the top of the scale the difference falls to 2 per cent. It is not proposed to follow the British scale up to its maximum of 40 per cent., but merely to substitute 27 per cent. for our present maximum of 25 per cent. At present our super-tax scale is distinctly stiffer on incomes up to £10,000 than the British scale. The first £500 liable to super-tax pays at the rate of 1/6 here and at the rate of 9d. in England. The next £1,000 pays at the rate of 2/- here and 1/- in England. Our scale and the British scale were the same until last year, except that our maximum rate was 4/6 while the British maximum ran up to 6/-.

When the two taxes were changed in Great Britain it was calculated that the revenue position would not be affected. It was considered, however, that there were economic advantages in taking smaller annual sums from people who had incomes of from £2,000 to £10,000, even though the deficiency had to be made up by taking, at longer intervals, from the same class of people, much larger sums in the form of death duties.

So far as we are concerned it is not necessary to consider the relative theoretical merits of estate duties and super-tax as methods of obtaining from people of substantial means a proper contribution towards the maintenance of State services. Since the setting up of the Saorstát it has been generally recognised that to have a higher rate of income tax than that prevailing in England was likely to have a deleterious effect upon the economic position of the Saorstát by causing people of wealth to quit the country altogether. In the past a person could not escape the Saorstát tax by merely taking the boat to Holyhead. He had also to dispose of all his property here. Under the new arrangement he has simply to get right out and he will become exempt from our tax. People who are at present regarded as resident both in Ireland and England are generally, or perhaps in all cases, super-tax payers. In most cases they are not bound to the Saorstát by professional or business ties, and it would be easy for them to cease to be resident here. In all the circumstances we are satisfied that to maintain a super-tax scale substantially higher than that in existence in Great Britain would, of itself, in the long run, involve a loss to the Exchequer. On the other hand, we shall not prejudice the interests of the Exchequer or drive people out of the country by bringing our estate duties up to the level adopted in England last year. At present our lower rates involve us in substantial loss under the arrangement for the relief of double taxation as it applies to estate duty. If a person domiciled in the Saorstát dies leaving an estate of which five-sixths is situated in Great Britain, we get tax on the whole estate, but allow relief to the extent of the entire British tax paid on the five-sixths of the estate situated in Great Britain. Prior to last year's British Finance Act our rate on the whole of the estate was higher than the British rate on their part of the estate, and, accordingly, our share of the total tax paid was always greater proportionately than the part of the estate situated in the Saorstát. During the past year the British rate on their portion of the estate of a person who had died domiciled in Saorstát Eireann was sometimes equal to or actually higher than the Saorstát rate on the whole estate. Thus it has occurred that our share of the tax in certain cases has actually been has proportionately than the part of the estate situated here.

In the case of all estates within the limits of value to which the charge applied we are now obliged to give greater relief than previously at an estimated annual cost of £40,000 to £50,000. Let us now turn to the estates of persons dying domiciled in Great Britain or Northern Ireland, and leaving property situated in Saorstát Eireann. The arrangement is that the British authorities charge duty on the whole estate while we charge on the portion situated here. The result of our rate of duty being lower is not that the estate pays less, but that the claim against the British authorities for relief is less.

Examination of the figures of last year and the year before made it possible to estimate with a considerable degree of certainty the effect upon the Revenue of adopting the present British scales for super-tax and estate duty. The reduction of the super-tax rates will involve a loss of income of £115,000 per annum. The increased estate duties will bring in an additional £200,000 per annum. This leaves a balance of £85,000, which it is proposed to use in relief of the burden of Corporation profits tax.

I explained in last year's Budget statement that we could not propose the abolition of the Corporation profits tax at any rate until some scheme had been devised which would give us a fair equivalent of an average yield of estate duty in respect of property owned by foreign companies in the Saorstát. On the other hand, it is recognised that the Corporation profits tax does not tend to check the investment of capital in industrial enterprises in the Saorstát. It is proposed in the forthcoming Finance Bill to increase the tax free allowance for the purpose of Corporation profits tax from £1,000 to £10,000. The adoption of this proposal will have the effect of reducing the number of companies liable to Corporation profits tax from 676 to 91. The loss of revenue will be £85,000 a year. The exemption of railway companies and certain other public utility companies from Corporation profits tax expires this year. It is proposed to renew the concession.

I promised last year in the course of the discussions on the Finance Bill that the question of the application of protective tariffs to agricultural products would be further considered. I may say that during the past twelve months the promise has been most amply fulfilled. The matter was approached in a most sympathetic spirit and various proposals for tariffs were examined. Suggestions had been put forward from various quarters that agriculture in the Saorstát might be assisted by tariffs on flour, bacon, butter, oatmeal, oats and even maize, and also, needless to say, on malting barley. Some of these suggestions, obviously, were not difficult to deal with. The suggested tax on oatmeal, though of comparatively small importance having regard to the value of imports, was one which we felt would benefit agriculture in some areas. We propose therefore to impose a Customs duty of 2/6 per cwt. on this commodity. The yield of tax is expected to be small, perhaps £12,000. Mills which would otherwise be in danger of closing down will be kept going, and about 300 extra hands employed. Farmers will be given a market for an additional 20,000 tons of oats. The proposal for the taxation of imported bacon was recognised to be one in favour of which certain good arguments could be advanced, and it was gone into at great length. The Government is satisfied, however, that in refusing to propose a tariff in this case it is acting in accord with the economic interest of the people. We are convinced that a tariff on bacon would not improve the farmers' prices or increase pig-production. The suggested tax on oats was not agreed to, because it would have had to be charged on seed oats as well as other oats. Of the other proposals I need only say that they did not seem likely to be of any advantage to agriculture.

We have not included in this Budget any proposals for protective tariffs on manufactured goods. In taking this line we are adhering to the declaration of policy which I made on behalf of the Executive Council last year. It seems to us to be clearly undesirable to commit the country to a policy of all-round protection in advance of a general election. It would be even more undesirable to drift along imposing one series of protective duties after another, until we found that without definite design we had created a general tariff. The present tariffs are, I think, looked upon by all sections of the House as experiments which are entitled to a fair chance, and I believe that no matter what change of parties might result from a General Election, a new Dáil would almost unanimously agree that they must be given a further run of, say, eight or ten years. If, however, a great number of additional duties were imposed this year and next, the position would be changed, and even manufacturers who are investing money on the strength of the existing tariffs, would not be able to feel sure that whatever happened politically their industries were safe for a reasonable period of years. For this reason, and because as further tariffs are added they would give a diminishing return, it is certain that additional tariffs imposed now would not give a proportionate increase in development and employment. It is perhaps advisable to say once again that the tendency of tariffs is to increase the cost of living. When a new industry is developed by means of tariffs, it is developed generally speaking, at the expense of the public. We believe that it is worth while incurring expense to initiate, develop and preserve manufacturing industries in this country; but we believe that with the present depressed state of agriculture it is necessary to hesitate before heaping expense upon expense. In the months immediately before a Budget, the majority of our manufacturers show great zeal and ability in trying to prove that they cannot possibly carry on without a tariff. It is impossible to help feeling that in some cases at least if they were as strenuous about producing and selling the right class of goods, they would not need to trouble about protective duties. When we said last year that our policy was to have no more tariffs until we had some sort of mandate from the people, we hoped that some of those who had been besieging us without effect would turn back to their factories and see what they could do for themselves. I know at least one case in which a manufacturer, who said that he would be driven out of business if he did not get protection, and to whom we turned a deaf ear, has managed, unaided, to hold his ground against foreign competition, and even to improve his position a little. We want it to be got out of the heads of a great many manufacturers that the natural and only way out of an industrial difficulty is a new tariff, by means of which the public will be made to pay.

On the other hand, we are prepared to admit that at present conditions in trade and industry are abnormal, that there may be Irish manufacturers who are in danger of being overwhelmed because of difficulties arising from world disturbances of an economic character. We do not wish to take up a coldly puristic attitude about any industry. While we are determined not to be rushed by a clamour into great extensions of our existing list of protected industries, we are prepared to concede that there may be cases in which it would not be wise or right to hold our hand for another two years. A particular industry may be beset by such special and peculiar dangers that there is grave risk of its being lost for want of a comparatively small measure of help promptly given. We admit that in such a case the value of the industry as a national asset should be weighed against the probable cost of saving it and a decision taken on the merits. Accordingly, we propose to set up a Tariff Commission, to which proposals for protective tariffs will be submitted. The Commission will hear evidence for and against every proposal which it investigates. Its proceedings will be public. Having explored the facts fully it will report to the Government upon the need of a tariff for the preservation of the particular industry, upon the amount of protection that would be required, upon the results which the imposition of a tariff would have on other industries and on the cost of living. Having received the report of the Commission recommending a tariff, the Government would, if it were satisfied that such a course was expedient in the general interest, submit to the Dáil a resolution imposing the necessary tax. As the evidence before the Commission would enable the public to form a pretty good idea of what its report was likely to be, a tax would seldom be proposed in respect of which there had not already been extensive speculative forestalling. It would be possible, therefore, to ignore the revenue effects of any duty in the first year. Consequently it is intended that reports of the Tariff Commission with which the Government found itself able to agree, should be acted upon as they were presented, whatever the period of the year. Under the suggested arrangement the Executive Council would not part with its responsibility for policy. It would not be bound to accept any recommendation of the Commission. At the same time it is clear that if the Commission forwarded a recommendation supported by published evidence in favour of a tax, the Executive Council would have to have very strong grounds for declining to bring the necessary proposals before the Dáil.

Before passing away from the question of protective tariffs I must refer to the Customs duty on motors and motor parts. Deputies, I am sure, are aware that, following the British decision of last year to re-impose what are called the McKenna duties, representations reached the Executive Council to the effect that it was essential to the success of the Ford industry in Cork that some arrangement should be reached with the British Government whereby motor parts manufactured in the Saorstát should be admitted free of duty into England. I need hardly say that we were, and are, most anxious that an important industry, unique of its kind in the Saorstát, should be facilitated in every way. The representations made to us were sympathetically considered and the possibilities of the position were thoroughly explored. It became apparent, at an early stage in our examination of the matter, that the only basis on which we might hope to get what those who spoke on behalf of the Ford Company wished for was the reciprocal exemption from duty of Saorstát and British motors on their entry into Great Britain and Saorstát Eireann respectively. After many months of consideration the Executive Council felt compelled to decide that the basis was not one which they could recommend to the Dáil. It would have involved the ultimate loss of most of the £300,000 annual revenue derived from the import duties on motors. It would also have involved some unemployment by worsening the conditions under which firms engaged in the production of commercial or other motor bodies are carrying on.

If the Executive Council have felt unable to adopt measures which would relieve the only motor industry in the Saorstát from difficulties which the taxation of another country has placed upon it, we feel that now the time has certainly come when anything in our own scheme of taxation which can be said to operate unfairly in relation to the Ford car should be removed. In my last Budget statement it was indicated that the basis of the road tax was being examined with a view to revision. It was hoped at the time that an early decision would be reached. But the subject is full of difficulties, and the much-desired equitable basis is very hard to find. The proposal suggested by the Sub-Committee of the Roads Advisory Committee did not commend itself to the Government. It involved the retention of the horse-power tax at a reduced rate and the addition of a petrol tax. It represented what I may call an unhappy compromise. There are many who favour feeding the Road Fund from a petrol tax alone. Such a policy would involve a tax of about 1/- a gallon on petrol. I do not know whether there are other countries which tax petrol at such a rate, but the State Chemist is of opinion that if such a high duty were contemplated it would be necessary to investigate further the possibilities of evasion by means of split cargoes or by the use of special grades of kerosene or lighting oil which it might become profitable to import. A proper examination of the subject could be carried out only by chemists and engineers working together. But even if we were sure that we had a specification which would include all spirits capable of being economically used to drive a car, and at the same time exclude kerosene, it must be acknowledged that a high petrol tax has many disadvantages. It would involve expense and difficulties in connection with drawbacks, which would not be refused to people using petrol for lighting, driving stationary engines, or boats, or for any purpose other than propelling road vehicles. On the Border it would give rise to additional customs formalities and delays. With a tax of anything like a shilling a gallon it would not be possible to ignore the petrol in the tanks of cars entering the Saorstát. Moreover, the petrol tax, like the horse-power tax on its existing basis, would be unfair to the Ford car. In view of all the considerations I have mentioned, we have decided not to propose a petrol tax. A road tax based on the unladen weight of vehicles was suggested and seems to have certain advantages. But data are not at present available to enable a clear opinion to be formed as to how it would work out in practice. In considering various suggestions for changes in the road tax, the Executive Council kept in mind the desirability of some increase in the revenue of the Road Fund and some consequent relief to local rates.

Finally, proposals were formulated which, if accepted by the Dáil, will at once relieve the Ford car from its handicap, compel the heavier commercial vehicles to pay a substantially increased tax, and provide an enhanced annual sum for road improvement. The horse-power basis will be retained. Private cars and hackneys, other than 'buses and char-a-bancs, which have been manufactured in Saorstát Eireann will bear a maximum tax of £10 per annum. In the case of other cars the formula for calculating horse-power in use prior to January, 1923, will again be adopted. This will mean in most cases an increase of the tax to the extent of 15% to 20%. The minimum charge will be increased from £6 to £8. Hackneys up to a capacity of six seats will be taxed as private cars but with a maximum of £20. Goods vehicles, 'buses and char-a-bancs will be charged on a new, and in the case of the latter, a more steeply graduated scale as follows:—

'Buses and Char-a-bancs.

Seating more than 6 but not more than 14 persons

£28

Seating more than 14 but not more than 20 persons

£40

Seating more than 20 but not more than 26 persons

£52

Seating more than 26 but not more than 32 persons

£64

Seating more than 32 persons

£2 for each seat.

The number of persons mentioned does not include the driver or his seat.

Goods Vehicles.

Not exceeding 12 cwt. in weight unladen

£10

Exceeding 12 cwt. but not exceeding 1 ton in weight unladen

£16

Exceeding 1 ton but not exceeding 2 tons in weight unladen

£30

Exceeding 2 tons but not exceeding 3 tons in weight unladen

£45

Exceeding 3 tons but not exceeding 4 tons in weight unladen

£60

Exceeding 4 tons but not exceeding 5 tons in weight unladen

£75

Exceeding 5 tons but not exceeding 6 tons in weight unladen

£90

Exceeding 6 tons in weight unladen

£105

The proposed new scale, which is only slightly different from that recently adopted in Northern Ireland, will give an increase of about 50 per cent, in the total revenue from the class of vehicles to which it applies. The tax on trailers to goods vehicles will be increased from £2 to £12. Finally, the charge for drivers' licences will be increased from 5/- to 20/- per annum. The new charges will increase the annual gross income of the Road Fund by about £133,000 up to a total of £673,000.

I now come to deal with what has been designated the "road problem." It is a healthy sign to find that the public generally have evinced a marked degree of interest in our roads, but it is necessary to clear up some misapprehension which apparently has arisen as a consequence of vigorous propaganda. The belief that the roads of the Saorstát are in an unsatisfactory condition is not correct. Compared with other countries, the principal roads of the Saorstát are, in fact, in a fairly satisfactory state. One of the evidences of the rapid return to normality has been the great progress made in the re-conditioning and re-surfacing of our highways.

While devoting themselves to this work, road authorities here, as elsewhere, have necessarily to take cognisance of the fundamental change in road user, arising from the expansion of mechanically-propelled traffic. The adoption of entirely new standards of road construction and maintenance has been necessitated.

The total cost for county roads in 1914 amounted to £695,000, all but £25,000 of which fell to the charge of the local ratepayers. At the present time the cost is £1,750,000, of which £500,000 represents the contribution from motor taxation.

When it is remembered that the total mileage of roads in the Saorstát amounts to 46,700 miles, it cannot be held that an expenditure of 1¾ millions is an excessive amount. We hope, however, that in a year or so, the annual revenue of the Road Fund may run to £750,000 or over, and that by a suitable policy of reconstruction and improvement the cost of maintenance may fall, and the local ratepayers be appreciably relieved.

It is, no doubt, within the recollection of the Dáil that the Department of Local Government submitted a proposition to involve expenditure on 1,500 miles of trunk roads of £3,820,000. This proposal would, of course, involve a borrowing policy. In the present circumstances no portion of a loan repayment should fall on the Central Fund.

I understand that those who are most intimately conversant with the facts relating to modern methods of road construction and surfacing find it difficult to speak authoritatively as to the savings to result in future maintenance. But it is manifest that the re-conditioning of important roads, both as regards foundations and surfacing, will produce very considerable economy.

To capitalise the Road Fund fully would mean that over a period of years the cupboard would be left completely bare for the purpose of a large mileage of our roads which although not of first importance are much too important to be completely ignored. It is felt, however, that a sum of £2,000,000 might be borrowed for reconstruction and improvement work of a somewhat lasting nature. This would involve an annual charge for ten years of £310,000. Such a figure, especially as it would decrease year by year, would leave a sufficient annual sum available for distribution on the same principles as heretofore. The details of a scheme of expenditure of the sum of £2,000,000 will now be a matter for determination by the Minister for Local Government. I hope I interpret his views correctly in stating that he has no intention of announcing any grandiose proposals. Capital expenditure will be cautiously undertaken. The exact condition and life of existing road surfaces will be determined, the aim being to bring the 1,500 miles of roads already mentioned into a generally satisfactory condition for modern traffic.

The Minister for Local Government will be in a position to proceed with a substantial proportion of the work within a very short time. He anticipates that having regard to the recent additions to road plant, schemes can now be initiated much more rapidly than heretofore, and there is reasonable expectation that within the present financial year a sum in advance of at least £1,000,000 may be reached.

During the last few months strong appeals have been made to the Government to reduce the excise duties on beer and spirits. I can say that though the case presented was not unsympathetically considered we cannot see our way to recommend any change. As the brewing industry is one of the biggest and most profitable industries in the country, and as Irish distilling is suffering from the loss of the major part of its outside markets, it seems impossible to reduce the duty on beer and leave the spirit duty untouched as was done in England. On the other hand, it would be indefensible to reduce the spirit duty and leave the beer duty at its present level. If a reduction were decided on, it ought to apply to both taxes, and to be of any use at all it would have to be a substantial reduction. It is not believed that reductions which would result in stout being brought down to 6d. and whiskey being retailed at 3d. or 4d. a glass less than at present, would bring about any appreciable increase in consumption. Consequently the loss in revenue would not be far short of £1,400,000. This sum would have to be got by fresh taxes levied on articles of necessity whereas both beer and spirits are mainly articles of luxury. It would, it appears to the Executive Council, be indefensible to take steps such as reimposing the teaduty and increasing the sugar duty in order to have cheaper stout and whiskey. It has been argued that a reduction in duty would at any rate prevent a further decline in consumption and that a continuance of the existing duties will cause the demand to contract so sharply that in, say, three years from now the yield will be considerably more than £1,400,000 below the present estimated yield. But against this, the figures of the past two years makes it clear that the fall in the consumption of whiskey is becoming slower. If there were an improvement in agricultural conditions, the consumption of beer and spirits would go up.

How do you make that out?

They cannot afford it at present. If conditions continue, as at present, it is not right economically to arrange and hope that people will pay out even more than £17,500,000 a year for liquor in order that the Exchequer may still receive £6,895,000 in tax. The position is that the people have not been able to continue paying the amount of about £17,500,000 which they were paying prior to last year, and it would not be possible for them in the coming year to spare the excess sum which would be necessary to give the Exchequer the same revenue at a reduced rate of duty. If we were to adopt the policy of frankly taking taxes off alcoholic liquors and putting them on such a number of other articles of common consumption as might provide a big sum such as £1,400,000, the result could only be increased financial stringency resulting in a still further fall in the consumption of beer and spirits. The suggestion that a reduction in the two taxes we are discussing would benefit the farmer seems to be without foundation. The brewing industry has an enormous export trade, and small variations in the home demand are not going to affect the farmer. In regard to distilleries, it has been solemnly suggested at meetings through the country that a reduction of the spirit duty would increase the requirements of grain no less than twenty-fold. In reality an increase or decrease of 50,000 proof gallons consumed is not going to mean a use of more than 375 tons of grain more or less, perhaps 400 acres.

Whatever may be the prospects of our revenue from beer duty, the brewing industry is able to take care of itself. In regard to the distilling industry, there seems to be one thing we can do to assist it in recovering lost ground outside the Saorstát. Competing whiskeys are produced by a cheaper process than Irish pot-still whiskey, which therefore can compete only by maintaining the highest reputation for quality and character. As a contribution towards keeping the reputation of Irish whiskey right at home, we propose to increase the period for which spirits must be matured from three years to five. This change will not involve any increase in price as the great bulk of Irish whiskey is actually bonded for five years or over at present, and only about 15 per cent. goes into consumption under five years old. Lengthening of the legal maturing period will involve certain increases of the additional duties payable in respect of those classes of spirit to which the Immature Spirits Act, 1915, does not apply.

In representations received from the distillers attention has been drawn to the very low rates at which alcohol in wine is taxed as compared with alcohol in spirits or even beer. We are not convinced that an increase in the wine duty will necessarily induce people who now consume wine to substitute spirits or beer; but we do feel it undesirable that our scheme of taxation should discriminate heavily against the home product. For the past three years wholesalers and retailers of wine have been put to great trouble and expense in forestalling anticipated increases in duty. It would be cruel to prolong the suspense another year. We propose that the duty on wine be increased by 100 per cent. Owing to the enormous rates of profit in the trade, 100 per cent. increase in the duty should afford no excuse for any increase in the price to the public. The quantities of wine taken from bond have been so large during the past seven or eight weeks that no appreciable increase in revenue is expected from the higher duty this year. Next year it should yield an additional £150,000 to £200,000 according to whether the duty is or is not passed on to the public.

Has the Minister considered a further reduction on the excise duty on cider?

No; I am thinking of increasing it. During the past financial year a State broadcasting station has been established in Dublin. A relaying station will be erected in Cork. It is probable that provision will have to be made for crystal set users elsewhere. The yield from licence fees even when better legislative provision has been made for collection is not likely for some time to meet the cost of the service. Moreover, we think it is not desirable to adhere to the recommendation of the Dáil Commitee on Broadcasting that a uniform fee of £1 should be charged on all sets. We believe that the fee for crystal sets should be reduced to 10/-. The reduction in the long run will yield greater revenue. In the meantime we propose the imposition of a Customs duty of 33? per cent. on transmitting or receiving sets and parts thereof. The yield is expected to be about £20,000 a year. It is not intended to make a profit out of broadcasting, but to use whatever revenue may be available for giving listening-in facilities to the greatest number of people.

The Executive Council has from time to time been urged to institute a tax on betting. The arguments in favour of the duty are very sound. It would certainly be a luxury tax, and if it yielded substantial revenue it would be very useful in making possible the reduction of some other impost which affects industry or the cost of living. It is also to be looked upon as a good tax because it would provide a suitable way out of the present ridiculous state of affairs under which, though cash betting is illegal, yet the law is not enforced, and, owing to the state of public opinion, is not enforceable. The yield of a betting tax can not be estimated in a satisfactory way, and the estimate which the Revenue Commissioners have ventured to make might easily prove to be very much wide of the mark. It has been decided, however, that the tax should be tried. The intention is that the existing ban on betting be removed. Book-making whether on a cash or credit basis will be legal for persons who have paid a £10 excise licence duty. It may be carried on only on racecourses or in premises in respect of which a £20 licence duty has been paid. All betting transactions will be liable to a tax equal to 5 per cent. of the sum staked. Tax will be paid either on certified returns, the book-maker giving bond as required by the Revenue Commissioners, or by the use of stamped slips or recording pads. Although the carrying on of betting will be legalised, the provision of the Gaming Act, 1842, in regard to the irrecoverability of betting debts will remain. It will be made an offence to attempt to bet with a bookmaker outside Sáorstát Éireann, and the Post Office will be given powers to stop communications by telegram, telephone, or letter to such bookmakers. It will be illegal to carry on any other trade or business in a bookmaking establishment. It is anticipated that the tax may yield from £150,000 to £200,000 in a full year.

We will soon have a Monaco here.

What will be the revenue loss to the Post Office?

I do not know. A special Committee of the Dáil during the latter part of the past financial year considered the question of duty on home-grown tobacco. The Committee unfortunately was appointed rather late in the year and had, consequently, very little time for the hearing of evidence or the consideration of findings. The Committee recommended that the Excise duty be further reduced from 6s. 8d. to 5s. The Executive Council are unable to agree with the recommendation. They are satisfied that a sufficiently large proportion of Irish tobacco would not be used in mixtures to enable any part of the reduction in duty to be passed on to the public. This was the view indicated by the only manufacturer who appeared before the Committee, and it is the view of other manufacturers. Consequently the Exchequer would lose 3s. 2d. a pound, which would be divided between grower and manufacturer. The cost to the general taxpayer of every acre of tobacco grown would be from anything in the neighbourhood of £128 to £150 and this after 20 years experimenting. It would cost the State 3s. 2d. a pound to find a market for a commodity, the competitor of which grown abroad could be sold for 7d. The alternative proposal put up by the tobacco growers that the Excise allowance on export should be increased from 2d. to 1s. a lb. was not considered by the Committee because of its terms of reference. On the merits it did not deserve consideration. It is really a proposal that the Saorstát taxpayer should pay a subsidy equal to £40 or £50 an acre in perpetuity in order to have the honour of helping, in a small way, to provide Britain's millions with cheap smokes. I venture to say that if that proposal were agreed to, we should have the tobacco growers back next year asking to have the subsidy increased to 1s. 6d. It seems to me that the only proper course to take is to recognise that tobacco growing on an economic basis in the Saorstát is not feasible, and to stop throwing good money after bad. If the experiment could be wound up the Executive Council would be prepared to consider any losses that may have been incurred by growers or others, and, if necessary, to make recommendations to the Dáil.

Minor changes and adjustments will be proposed in connection with various taxes, but it will be more convenient to discuss them in proposing the appropriate resolutions or during the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill.

In conclusion, I will only say that while the present economic position of the Saorstát is such as to give ground for anxious thought and to call for earnest endeavour, there is no reason for despondency. The depression we are experiencing is mainly the result of world conditions and is shared by numerous other countries. But while the principal causes of trouble are outside this country, it is possible for us by organised national effort to overcome many of the difficulties that confront us. The existing tendency to look entirely to the Government and to State activity for all development and for the remedy of every ill is a great obstacle to progress. We hear a lot of grousing about profiteering; the merest suspicion of public indignation would more effectually check profiteering than any action by the Dáil or the Government. There are people who would not walk round the corner to avoid profiteering, but who heartily curse the Government for not doing something about it. In regard to nearly every problem the public attitude is, unfortunately, somewhat similar. When the company to carry on the sugar-beet scheme was being organised, it was found in the earlier stages that no Irish money could be obtained. One of the things shown by the working of the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Act is that, broadly speaking, people would be horrified at the idea of investing in any new industrial venture here the sums that they would readily wager on a horse race or put into a wild-cat scheme in Timbuctoo or Honolulu.

The thing most wanted at the moment is to have it thoroughly realised that the country cannot be made to prosper by legislation or official activity, that the active co-operation of the citizens with the Government and of one class of citizens with another is essential. Deputies will remember that when the National Loan was being issued in 1923 we had for a week or two a striking display of public interest in the financial future of the country and of co-ordinated effort to achieve a national purpose. The banks, without commission, undertook, if necessary, to apply for 40 per cent. of the issue; the Chambers of Commerce held meetings asking for public support; newspapers of practically all shades of opinion urged the duty of subscribing: the most important firms in the country took up large amounts; churches and charitable foundations did likewise. Trade Unions, too, came forward with their subscriptions. The Irish National Teachers' Organisation which at that juncture entertained a strong sense of grievance against the Government in office, nevertheless took up a substantial block of loan. Public support was so general that although individual applications were received for amounts like £300,000, £250,000 and £100,000, the average allotment was only £600.

If some fraction of the spirit of general co-operation which was then aroused could be brought into play in dealing with day-to-day economic problems, substantial advances could be made. To-day the industrialist who clamours for protection too often takes no trouble to get his own requirements of home manufacture even though they may be available at competitive rates. The people who blame the banks for not lending more readily on land are the very people who would be amused if a bank, in consequence of a sale being prevented by intimidation, lost money that had been lent on a land mortgage. They are the people also who if they heard that a particular bank was lending freely on land would slip away quietly and remove their deposit accounts to another bank. They would never think, for instance, of trying to come together and concert with the banks means whereby land might be made a really good security for loans. I am not saying for the moment that such an arrangement could be easily achieved. I merely urge that the policy of leaving everything to the Government be abandoned. There is nothing I am more clear about than if people will not help themselves no Government can effectually help them. And while a reasonable amount of criticism of the Government for what it has done or not done, may perhaps be counted as self-help, by itself it will be about as beneficial as the tablespoonful of water to which it has been forgotten to add the medicine. The real cure for the ills of to-day, so far as they can be quickly cured, lies in the people as a whole making an effort to pull together economically with due thought of the common interest. I think I may say that in regard to the question of national development, the policy of the Government has not been lacking in enterprise and courage and that the schemes it has initiated will, as they mature, give great results in increased productivity. If we could bring to the better organisation of commerce and agriculture a fourth of the popular interest and enthusiasm that has been evoked for political purposes, we could really get ahead.

I want to remind Deputies that the usual procedure adopted in these cases is that the Resolutions are all taken in Committee on the first day, except the last one [Resolution No. 15] which provides for a general amendment of the law. That Resolution will be postponed until to-morrow. Deputies will have time, in the interval, to digest the Minister's speech, and we can then have a discussion on the general questions raised in the speech. The Resolutions, when passed, will be reported, and will be again open for discussion. But the general discussion of the Minister's speech has heretofore been postponed until the following day and I assume this procedure has the approval of the House.

RESOLUTIONS 1, 2 AND 3 (INCOME TAX).

I move resolution No. 1:—

(1) That income tax shall be charged for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1926, at the rate of four shillings in the pound.

(2) That super-tax shall be charged for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1926, at the following rates:—

In respect of the first two thousand pounds of the income

Nil.

In respect of the excess over two thousand pounds:

For every pound of the first five hundred pounds of the excess

Ninepence.

For every pound of the next five hundred pounds of the excess

One shilling.

For every pound of the next one thousand pounds of the excess

One shilling and sixpence.

For every pound of the next one thousand pounds of the excess

Two shillings and threepence.

For every pound of the next one thousand pounds of the excess

Three shillings.

For every pound of the next two thousand pounds of the excess

Three shillings and six-pence.

For every pound of the next two thousand pounds of the excess

Four shillings

For every pound of the remainder of the excess

Four shillings and sixpence.

(3) That the several statutory and other provisions which were in force during the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1925, in relation to income tax and super-tax shall have effect in relation to the income tax and the super-tax to be charged as aforesaid for the year beginning on the 6th day of April, 1926.

(4) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913.

I have already indicated what the effect of the change which is proposed will be. It is proposed that income tax be charged at the same rate as last year, but the effect of the reduction in super-tax will be about £115,000 per annum less into the Exchequer. I will give one or two illustrations, assuming in each case that the taxpayer has only unearned income, that he is married and has two children. At present a person having £2,500 income pays £37 10s. super-tax; under the new provisions he will pay £18 15s. 0d. A person with £4,000 income at present pays £212; in future he will pay £118. A person with £7,000 income pays £737 10s. at present; he will pay £556 5s. in future. A person with £10,000 pays £1,412 10s. at present; he will pay £1,131 5s. in future.

I am not able to discuss this matter very fully, or almost to any extent, in the absence of a general summary of the estimates of the cost of these various taxes. But I think, right at the beginning, in respect of this income tax proposal which involves a reduction in favour of the super-taxpayer of £115,000, that I must draw attention to the speech of the Minister, in introducing his Budget last year, with respect to an item which is of immediate interest to a very large number of people in the Saorstát. The Minister said that no increase in the old age pension Vote was allowable because

"the situation does not permit of any increase in recurrent expenditure; that, in fact, existing expenditure can continue to be borne only if conditions improve. Substantial reduction in taxation is, consequently, necessary above all else. But, if the situation is found to have improved at the end of the year, we believe some revision of the Old Age pensions Act, 1924, will have to be given precedence of any further reduction of taxation, however much required."

It is these last words to which I am drawing attention, that "if the situation is found to have improved at the end of the year we believe some revision of the Old Age Pensions Act, 1924, will have to be given precedence of any further reduction of taxation, however much required." I am not going to enlarge upon the position of the old age pensioners at this stage or deal with the effect of the cut in their pensions. It may arise later on. But in view of the proposition contained in this resolution, involving, as it does, a reduction in super-tax of £115,000, I remind the Committee of the Minister's very definite statement last year, that before any such reduction could be thought of, particularly in respect of super-taxpayers, old age pensioners should have a refund of the cut of ten per cent. in their pensions. I think it is rather a pity that the first proposition in this year's financial proposals should be to reduce the charge upon the super-taxpayer, when we have not had any suggestion from the Minister with regard to making provision for an improvement in the position of the old age pensioners, or any proposition which would seem to make provision for dealing with the case of unemployed men, whether by means of direct employment or by means of an extension of the provisions of insurance. I put in my protest right at the beginning of this series of discussions on that count.

This is one of a set of three proposals which involves no reduction in taxation. It simply means that the burden of taxation is proposed to be shifted in a certain way to get the same result. If we let off a certain class of fairly wealthy people from paying super-tax to the extent of £115,000 per annum, we are proposing to get out of them in death duties £200,000 per annum. As to the provision for the unemployed, we are, at any rate, going to make a big advance to the Road Fund to carry on a great deal more work than could be carried on out of current income.

Resolution put and agreed to.

I move Resolution No. 2:—

(1) That for the purposes of the Agreement relating to relief from double income tax made between the Government of Saorstát Eireann and the Government of Great Britain on the 14th day of April, 1926, persons who are resident in Saorstát Eireann and are not resident in Great Britain or Northern Ireland and persons who are resident both in Saorstát Eireann and in Great Britain or Northern Ireland shall respectively be chargeable with income tax (including super-tax) in respect of property situate and profits or gains arising in Great Britain or Northern Ireland in such manner and subject to such rules as the Oireachtas shall provide in and by any Act relating to finance passed within four months after the passing of this Resolution.

(2) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913.

This resolution arises out of the proposed new arrangement for dealing with the problem of double income tax. In the Agreement with the British Chancellor of the Exchequer which has been circulated, Deputies will find that

Article 3 of it provides for the charging of Saorstát tax to any person who is entitled to exemption from British tax by virtue of Article 1 (a) of the Agreement in respect of property, profits or gains exempt from British tax. Unless alterations were made in the law, the result would be that certain profits or portions of profits would escape income tax assessment altogether. To take one example: A person wholly resident in the Saorstát who is a sleeping partner in a business controlled and carried on wholly in Northern Ireland, is not at present liable to assessment in the Saorstát on any portion of his share of the profits of the business in Northern Ireland which is not remitted to the Saorstát. For the future, a person resident in the Saorstát and not resident in Great Britain or Northern Ireland will be entitled, under the agreement, to claim exemption from British income tax, so that if we did not legislate to assess income tax arising from his partnership in the business in Northern Ireland that portion of his income would escape tax altogether.

There are other cases also that are provided for. The broad principle that is being applied is that the full income which is exempted under the new arrangement from tax in the country of origin shall be chargeable in the country of residence. There is one special provision which may be referred to. At present the dividends from a British limited company are, in effect, assessed to British income tax by deduction on the basis of the income in the year of assessment. Such dividends, when they accrue to a Saorstát resident, are assessed to Saorstát taxes on the basis of the average of the three preceding years. It is proposed to make the ultimate basis of charge the actual income of the current year in future, so that, broadly speaking, the charge in the Saorstát will correspond to the tax in respect of which exemption is given by the British. We are bringing two different bases into conformity there, so that there may be no escape from tax under the new arrangement. Under Article 3 (c) of the Agreement it is intended that the liability to Saorstát tax, in the case of a double resident, shall be computed as if he were a single resident. The principle for the single resident, as I have already explained, will be applied by both countries in computing the liabilities of the double resident, who will then be given double tax relief in accordance with Article 2 of the Agreement. I may say that the whole of the new Agreement will provide the utmost simplicity in the case of persons who are resident only in the Saorstát or resident only in Great Britain or Northern Ireland, but that complications will exist, though they will be lesser complications, where the person is resident in the two countries.

Are we to take it that a resident of the Saorstát will only be subject to tax in accordance with the Saorstát standard of income tax, even if that resident has holdings in British companies?

Quite. He will claim exemption from the British, and will get exemption from the British. Suppose he holds shares in a British company, he will get his dividend with so much tax deducted. He will then simply apply for exemption on evidence which will be arranged to show that he is a resident here, and having satisfied the British authorities that he is a resident here he will be repaid the tax in full and be completely exempted. Then, of course, he will be taxed on his income here.

But the individual will have to make an application to the British Revenue?

Would it not be a simpler matter if the ordinary Revenue Authorities could arrange that?

There will be a clearing house which will do certain work; exactly how much work would be put on it has not yet been ascertained.

I accept that, but a simpler matter would be if the registered address of the shareholders were accepted by the British.

The thing they would have to be assured of is that he was not doubly resident. There are people with houses here and houses in England and before the British could pay money they would have to be assured that they were not doubly resident.

I should like more information respecting the outcome of this arrangement. I have no doubt we shall have more discussion upon it and, in the course of that discussion, a great deal more light, but it would be also better if we could have more information from the Minister as to what he expects from these arrangements. He tells us that we will be left where we are at present. I should like a little more light as to what are the expectations on the economy of the country. I expect that one of the inevitable outgrowths of this proposal is that the income tax rate in the Saorstát, Great Britain and Northern Ireland, year by year, will be found to be about the same. Between Government and Government the fear will be that if there is too great a reduction in one case it will tend to throw the passenger traffic between one country and the other in order to evade the income tax of that particular year, and it seems to me to have the consequence that the income tax arrangements between the respective countries will more or less approximate to equality year by year. Whether that is desirable or not I will not argue at present; whether it is the intention or not I am not going to suggest, but I should like to know from the Minister whether there is more involved in this proposition than mere convenience to the income taxpayer. Then, and appertaining to that, there is the question of what is going to be the effect on income tax payers who are only dividend receivers.

In another part of the Minister's speech he referred to the lack of enthusiasm of investors towards Irish industries and investments, and said that they were prepared to look towards Honolulu or Timbuctoo rather than towards Ireland for investments. On another occasion the Minister told us the sum of Irish money invested in Great Britain or Ireland runs into 150 or 160 million pounds. It is to be anticipated that the effect of this proposal will be to stabilise that position, and to continue the encouragement to Irish investors to send their money into Great Britain for investment in British ventures, and, perhaps, also to encourage Irish companies to have their headquarters in Great Britain if it were to happen that the rates of income tax in Great Britain were lower than in Ireland. On the other hand it may be said, and this I should like some light upon, that the effect of this proposal will be to induce British investors to invest their savings in Irish industries; we are to have that kind of re-arrangement or rather a continuation of the present arrangement, with the added expectation that British investors would send over more of their money to establish industries in Ireland. I do not know if that is the intention. I question if it is more desirable than a policy which would induce Irish investors to invest their money in Irish industries, and, on the face of it, as much as I can understand it, from the hurried reading or the slight consideration one has been able to give to the proposals, the effect of this arrangement is to encourage an Irish investor to invest his money in British securities and the hope that there would be a reciprocal response from British investors so that British investors would chance a little more money in Irish industries. I do not think that is a desirable arrangement, and it seems to me to be likely to effect the amalgamation or the reamalgamation of the financial interests of the investors of the two countries. Whether that is desirable is certainly very questionable. In any case, without attempting to pronounce any final judgment upon this question, I hope the Minister will be able to give us a little more light as to what is in his mind as to the economic bearing of this proposal, apart from the question of revenue on the individual investors.

I want to ask the Minister a question with regard to paragraph four of the Agreement:

"For the purposes of this Agreement a company, whether incorporated by or under the laws of Great Britain or Northern Ireland or the Free State or otherwise, shall be deemed to be resident in that country only in which its business is managed and controlled."

The object I have in asking this question is that there is a huge brewing concern in this country, and to my mind it is managed and controlled in another country, and it would, obviously, be a great loss to this country if that concern were to be free under the arrangements which have been effected. The whole question of double income tax is one which has caused a great deal of trouble, and any arrangement which would simplify methods is to be accepted with favour. Deputy Johnson need not be worried about Irish investors, because any investor will go to the place where he will get the best return for his money, and if this is a country which offers people a greater return than Honolulu money will be invested here rather than in Honolulu. That is the way I look at the matter, and if we wish to lose money by being patriotic, that is nothing to complain about. Let us hope that stability will be brought about by a better sense of patriotism amongst our people.

The Minister has stated quite clearly that in the case of an ordinary resident in Saorstát Éireann who has shares in a British company, the income tax will be payable here entirely. I should like to ask him if an ordinary resident in this country who owns lands in England, without a residence, will have to pay income tax there?

If he is not resident in England he is exempt from all British taxes. In part, I think that Deputy Wilson gave an answer to Deputy Johnson. I would like to disagree, however, with one point of view which Deputy Wilson expressed. He indicated that investors look solely to profit; that they try to look to profit only, but they do not always succeed and are often misled by bad fashions and bad habits. The position really is this. This country is stated to own in foreign investments a sum of between a hundred and fifty and one hundred and sixty millions. That sum is owned by individuals here, and the country would lose a substantial part of that foreign investment, although the money was made here, if those individuals who own that money went out of the country. The difficulty we experienced during the continuance of the double income tax was that the ownership of that money might be lost to the country, and no doubt a substantial portion of it would be lost if the people owning it left the country. I do not think that you are likely to prevent anybody investing in British securities or industries because of the double tax difficulty. People will look to profit largely and will ignore the other element. If you get a position in which a person has most of his wealth in British securities, and if he is subject to great difficulties about tax, he may decide to leave, and there are people who would so decide. We expect that the new arrangement will benefit the State in this way, namely, that the people who have been inclined to go will not go and that those who have gone will be inclined to come back so that their wealth will again become Irish-held wealth and the income tax from it will flow into this country.

It is quite true, I believe, as a necessary consequence of this arrangement, that the income tax rates in the two countries cannot be very far apart. In paragraph 8 Deputies will see that the arrangement is subject to legislative confirmation and will remain in force only as long as the confirming legislation remains in force. If the British reduce their income tax to 2s. 6d., and if we could not follow suit, our only way of saving our revenue position would be to abandon the agreement and revert to the old practice. On the other hand, if we reduced our tax so low that very serious loss would be suffered by the British Exchequer by people coming here, they on their part might terminate the arrangement. I believe that there might be a certain limit within which both taxes might differ without the agreement being abandoned, but if they differed widely the result would be that the agreement would be abandoned. I do not think that Deputy Johnson need fear or believe that it is going to have any great effect on future investments. Last year I was told, when I was making inquiries in reference to the adverse balance of trade, that a great number of stockbrokers were very busy buying British securities for their clients in spite of the double income tax. I think if people see opportunities of a rise in the value of shares they will buy first and trouble about double income tax afterwards. It may affect them, if they come to a position in which they have considerable investments in England and the smaller portion of them held here. With regard to the Guinness company, which Deputy Wilson mentioned, the position will be that in future the company will not be taxed by us. At present we tax the company, not on its whole profits but on a great portion of them. We then gave double taxation relief. We remitted a little more than half what we got. In future the company will not taxed, but all dividends coming here will pay the Saorstát income tax in full.

Supposing the shares are equally divided between those held in England and those held here, the position would be that we would get the same tax as in the past, because we get full tax on that portion of the dividends which comes into the Saorstát. So far as the company are concerned they will not be taxed by us in future. They will deduct from their shareholders British tax in full, but when the taxpayers reside here they will be exempt from the British tax and we will get the full tax. The new arrangement will meet the case of the smaller shareholders of Messrs. Guinness. A grievance has existed in their case. What happened was that, legally speaking, although Guinness bore the Saorstát tax, it was not legally entitled to deduct the Saorstát tax, and from the point of view of the taxpayer the income tax that had been paid to our authorities was an expense like that of the corporation profits tax or rates. In consequence, we had to refuse to repay any tax, so that if the Guinness shareholder was a wealthy man, a man with considerable income, our position in regard to his Guinness dividends was that they bore our tax. In the case of a poor person who should have been entitled to a rebate we had to say that Guinness had no legal authority to deduct the tax and such a person could not get a repayment. The result was that the poorer shareholders could not get a repayment. Now as this company will be resident in Ireland such person will be able to get full repayment.

Will Guinness be exempt from the corporation tax?

If the assessment of income tax is for the Free State and if the dividend comes from Guinness it is received here with the British tax taken off. When the receiver applies for a refund how will the Revenue Commissioners here be able to get that particular shareholder to pay his dividend from that portion of the money which he gets back from Britain?

I think the best answer is to leave it to the Revenue authorities.

Would the Minister explain whether hardship is likely to arise in various cases, and particularly in the case of persons with small incomes, by deduction being made from the dividends as they are received and the recipients not being able to get refunds until perhaps nearly twelve months afterwards?

We are to make special arrangements to avoid that, as far as practicable. I believe the clearing house, which it is proposed to set up, will enable us to do so. It might be agreed, for instance, in some cases that the tax would be paid over by the British to us. The detailed arrangements, however, are as yet only being worked out.

I was glad to hear the Minister mention the clearing house, because that goes to the bottom of the whole difficulty. At present, there is not supposed to be such a thing as double taxation at all. Although one is resident here and legally has to pay a certain amount of tax to Great Britain, where he has property, and also to the Saorstát, he is not supposed to pay double income tax. He is not supposed to pay more than the requisite proportion of the total tax to one country or to the other. The difficulty in this question has always been the making of the original demand on the taxpayer and his having, whether he was a man of small income or of large income, to make a personal demand for a rebate. As the Minister has said, it is very hard to explain this question briefly. But I think the difficulty is not going to be removed except by something in the nature of a clearing house. While the Minister has not been able to assure the House that a clearing house is in existence, I was pleased to hear that negotiations are proceeding whereby something in the nature of such an institution will be brought into being. As Deputy Thrift has explained, if the income tax is still to be deducted in the first place and a resident in this country is put to the trouble and inconvenience, with delay in many cases, of applying to Great Britain for a rebate, the difficulties will not have been overcome. I quite see that the procedure will be simplified to some extent by the proposal that mere residence in the country will be sufficient to secure this rebate, but I am rather doubtful as to the facility with which the small dividend receiver will obtain his rebate. The real and only practical means, therefore, of dealing with this double taxation difficulty, as it has been called, will be the institution of a clearing house. I pointed out that previously, and I am delighted to find the Government taking that line. In a matter of this kind, between two Governments, I do not think all the duty and responsibility should be cast on the individual. Only one demand should be made on the individual taxpayer. He should not have to pay twice and he should not have to make application for a rebate. I hope the proposal as to the setting up of a clearing house will be proceeded with.

I should not like Deputy Redmond to take it that all the classes of work he refers to will be dealt with in a clearing house. A clearing house might be of little utility if too great a burden were thrown on it. I do not want it to be taken that all sorts of ordinary cases will be dealt with in the clearing house. As I have said, all that has been arrived at is a general agreement. There have been discussions of administrative details. These discussions are proceeding, and I am not in a position to say how they will work out. There is all the difference in the world between the old system, whereby the person claiming relief had to go into all the details, had to give all the particulars, and had to satisfy the authorities and the proposed system, whereby a simple form is substituted in which all that is necessary to say is "I am a resident in the Saorstát. You have got £5 tax from me; please return it."

I agree with the Minister that a tremendous advance has been made inasmuch as we shall no longer have to fill up the assessment form giving our entire income, enclosing our receipt for income tax paid here, and particulars of the claims we are making. Even when making the claims, many of us were quite unable to arrive at the actual proportion that was allowed as far as the remainder was concerned. Even if the clearing house were set up, it seems to me that it would be very difficult for people with small incomes from which deductions have been made to get refunds of the deductions inside three months or six months. If the deduction is made from the dividend in the first instance, it would throw a tremendous amount of work on the clearing house. The clearing house could not possibly arrange to give a refund on the spot to each person who would get a dividend with income tax deducted. Even a clearing house will not be able to get over the difficulty of people with small incomes being kept out of their money for a certain length of time. I congratulate the Minister on what he has done to get rid of what was an intolerable nuisance. The filling of the forms in connection with these claims in the past was one of the most troublesome things I have ever come across. In justice to the people on the other side, I may say that I made a claim within the last fortnight and this morning I received a return, so that I was not kept waiting for any length of time.

When we have a Deputy telling us about the annoyance he experienced in making these claims we can imagine the difficulty the ordinary investor in the country experienced who had not the advantage of Deputy Sir James Craig's education. There is another difficulty which has not been referred to. When one sets about the recovery of these deductions from England, he is told about the English method of calculation. Has the Minister heard anything about that? In some cases they have a different method altogether. Could the refund not be made by means of an affidavit of an investor in an English company, which affidavit would be held by the company sending out their dividend warrants, and which would be sufficient to exclude the investor from English tax? I happen to do business with some of these small investors, and they have to go to an expert to deal with their claims. For that they have to pay, which is another tax on the small investor. It is the small investor who suffers most, because he generally knows less about the procedure than the large investor. The annoyance has not been overstated by Deputy Sir James Craig. It has been felt very keenly by the small investor in the country. I have been up against it myself and I know what it is.

The English method of calculation will not arise at all in the future.

I am very glad to hear that.

All you have to show is the tax deducted in England, and to prove in whatever way is decided— perhaps by a certificate of the Revenue Commissioners—that you are a resident here, and to ask for the tax back. The question of calculation in the future will not arise at all.

That is a mercy in itself.

It is an enormous simplification, and I think that the Minister's answer is quite satisfactory. If you had to wait until the following 5th April, as is the case at present, before you could put in your claim, then, I think, a hardship would arise; but the clearing house will possibly meet that difficulty. If it could be arranged that the dividend warrant when sent here with the income tax deduction could be taken to the clearing house, and deducted income tax paid over to the investor, the matter would be quite satisfactory.

I want to say again that while the clearing house is necessary—and it is necessary—every case that can be dealt with outside will be dealt with. We do not intend to overload the clearing house. In the great majority of ordinary cases there would be no advantage to be had at the clearing house. The investors will have their claims and they can be made outside.

I suggest a simpler thing: that the taxpayer who has had income tax deducted on the other side should hand the warrant to the authorities here; that they should pay the tax to him and then collect it from the authorities on the other side.

That is a thing that might be done where the person was a taxpayer here, but in some cases Deputies were referring to people of small incomes.

Perhaps I could make the case clear. The person I have in mind is a person receiving, say, £100 a year in dividends. From the £100 there is deducted £20 in income tax. If that person was to get only £80 and had to wait until 5th April, 1927, to get the £20 restored it would be a real hardship.

That person need not wait at all. As soon as he gets the dividend, with the income tax deducted, he can make application and will get a refund.

Resolution put and agreed to.

I move Resolution No. 3:—

(1) That whenever in any year of assessment a person would be entitled to income from a particular source which in fact does not produce income in that year, and the tax thereon would if the source had produced income be computed by reference to income from the same source in any preceding year or years, such person shall, in the year following the year or years by reference to which the computation is directed to be made, be chargeable with tax in the same manner and to the like amount as if the source had produced income in such following year.

(2) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913.

This resolution arises out of a recent decision given in a British court which might perhaps be followed here. The case in the British courts was Whelan versus Henning. The taxpayer was the owner of shares in a Ceylon Rubber Company, the dividends of which were assessable to British income tax in case 5 of schedule D as income from possession outside of the United Kingdom, and it was assessable accordingly on the average of the three preceding years. On this basis his assessment was fixed at a figure of over £3,000. In the year of assessment the company paid no dividend, and Henning, the taxpayer, contended there was no liability to income tax. The House of Lords upheld the contention. Now this resolution is designed to neutralise or to prevent a similar decision being given by the courts here. It is also intended to put beyond doubt the legality of the practice that has been in existence for a great many years. Of course, it is intended to be effective only where the person is still in possession of the source of income. If he has parted with the source of income, of course, he is not liable. It will be obvious to Deputies that if the decision of the British House of Lords were to be followed by the courts here the taxpayer would get the benefit of the bad year twice. First he would pay no tax in the bad year, and then the year in which there was no income would come in, in calculating the average of the three succeeding years. The need for this would be clearer if we were to adopt, in this country, the recommendation of the Royal Commission of 1918, which, I think, was that the average of the three preceding years basis should be done away with altogether, and that instead of the average of the three preceding years we should have the actual income of the year previous. Suppose we were going to adopt that basis, and the House of Lords decision stood, the position would be that if a man had no income this year he would pay no tax under the House of Lords decision, and the next year again when he had a big income he would pay no income tax because it would be assessable on the previous year. The position would be that a man could so arrange that each alternate year he would have a big income and no income, so that he could not be charged income tax at all. It is obvious that if this decision were to be followed by the courts here, it would be a grievous hardship upon other taxpayers who would not get the unfair and inequitable advantage which this decision would give.

One would like to know from the Minister what would be the effect on a person holding a security which he did not hold for three years? The Minister points out that under this resolution a person has to be assessed on an income from a security over an average of three years. Supposing, as I said, the principal were only held for one or two years, how is that particular individual covered by this resolution?

The existing arrangement would apply; he would be charged for the first year on actual income, for the second year on the income of the first year, for the third year on the average of the previous two years, and for the fourth year on the average of the previous three years.

I take it that this resolution would not apply to this individual.

Resolution put and agreed to.
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