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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 7 May 1926

Vol. 15 No. 12

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE.

Motion made by the Minister for Finance on the 6th May:—
Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,625,470 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun Costas an Airm, maraon le Cúl-thaca an Airm.
That a sum not exceeding £1,625,470 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the cost of the Army, including Army Reserve.
And Question being again proposed on the motion made by Deputy Heffernan on that date: "That the Vote be reduced by £1,300,000,"
The debate was resumed.

I just want to make a few short remarks in reply to the statement made by the Minister for Defence and the President yesterday in regard to the necessity for the maintenance of the present standing Army. The impression which I got from the statements made from the Government Benches was that they did not justify to any extent the retention of a standing army in the Saorstát at its present size. The President acknowledged that the Army was not being retained for the purpose of acting as a guarantee against an outbreak of civil strife, that he did not anticipate and did not fear an outbreak of that kind. That being the case, I am driven to the conclusion that the only reason for the maintenance of a standing army of the present size is as a defence against possible outside invasion. Such being the case, we must have some kind of a basis with regard to the size of the Army which would be in keeping with the resources of this State. I have made a number of comparisons with the armies maintained by other members of the Commonwealth of Nations, and in all cases these comparisons show that the strength of the standing army retained in the Saorstát is greatly in excess of the numbers retained in any of the other dominions. The figures which I gave were not refuted, although attempts were made to do so. The Minister for Defence stated in his reply, that the figures given in my amendment were taken at random, the insinuation being that they had no reference to any existing conditions either in this State or in any other State. I want to tell the Minister that these figures were not taken at random. They were taken, having in view the conditions of defence in the other States of the Commonwealth of Nations. Having inquired into the standing armies in the other members of the Commonwealth of Nations, I found that in no case did the actual numbers exceed in regard to a permanent force, 3,500 men. Such being the case, I thought I was making a liberal allowance for all possibilities in this State in proposing an amendment which is to have the effect of limiting our financial liabilities with regard to the Army to 5,000 men.

This morning I went to the trouble of making out some other figures of comparison in regard to the standing army maintained in this country and the standing army maintained in Canada, including the reserve and militia in Canada, also taking into account the population of that State. The population of Canada at the last census was 8,788,000. The total army establishment was: a standing army of 3,500 and a total militia and reserves of 123,473. The total cost of the defence forces in Canada is £2,239,423. The total cost per head of the population for the maintenance of defence in Canada is 5/4. In order to make another suitable comparison I took the total expenditure for Canada, and I compared the total defence expenditure in Canada with the total expenditure for all other services of the Dominion and I find that the total expenditure for Canada including provincial services is £102,600,000. Making a comparison between the total cost of the army in Canada including the militia, I find it is in the ratio of £1 to £44. The total expenditure in the Saorstát is in the ratio of one to twelve, and the total cost of the Army per head is 16/-. So that the cost for the Saorstát is 16/- per head as compared with 5/4 in Canada, and that applies to the militia as well as to the permanent established forces. Making a comparison with Australia I find that the cost of the army per head is 7/- in Australia. Taking these facts into account and taking into account the much greater resources of these States I think it must be acknowledged that the cost of the Army in this country is more than the country can bear. I appreciate the efforts made by the Government in regard to the reduction of the Army from time to time as pointed out by the President and the Minister last night. But I want to point out that this State was not unique in that regard, that other States had their demobilisation problems as well as this State; that in Australia the military force was 400,000 and Australia had to demobilise that force and was able to carry on, and was satisfied with bringing the standing army down to 1,703 men while we require about 13,000. Canada had an army raised for war purposes of half a million, and she has now reduced that army to 3,500 men plus militia.

Taking these figures into account, I cannot see that any justification has been made for the retention of the standing army at its present size. Taking also into account the later statement made by the Minister for Defence that his policy is to retain a permanent standing army of 10,000 plus reserves——

He never said that.

That was stated last night.

It means then that the Estimates put forward this year is based on 10,000.

For this year.

Coming down to £2,000,000 this year.

I understood the Minister to say that the £2,000,000 was for an army of 10,000 in future.

For the next year, and then gradually reducing it afterwards.

I want to say this finally, that in proposing this amendment, I am not actuated by any effort to gain popularity or to take part in what is called the economy ramp. I do not intend to gain popularity of that kind. I have steadily worked for economy in this House; before it was thought of elsewhere, I suggested that the standing army should be reduced, in this country, to the lowest possible basis. As regards the actual personnel and the future of the Army it seems to me when we have taken into account the future prospects of the officers of the Army, it may be better for a great many of those officers to be demobilised and to make their way into civilian life, for this reason: we have an establishment in which we find lieutenants sometimes more advanced in age than the higher officers, the generals and major-generals, and for those men there is no reasonable prospect of promotion. Their present position may be satisfactory, but in ten years time if they find that there is no prospect for them and that they have entered what is a blind alley occupation there will be dissatisfaction within the Army. Taking all these things into account, I think we have made a reasonably good case, in a strenuous effort on our part, to reduce the Army in cost to a basis which will be in keeping with the resources of the country. I do not think the Government has made a case which justifies the keeping of an Army at its present size, and therefore I urge that my amendment should be accepted.

Question put. The Committee divided. Tá, 16; Níl, 36.
Tá.

Pádraig Baxter.Seán Búitléir.John Conlan.Connor Hogan.Tomás Mac Eoin.Patrick McKenna.Risteárd Mac Liam.Patrick J. Mulvanny.

Tomás de Nógla.Mícheál O Dubhghaill.Donnchadh O Guaire.Mícheál O hlfearnáin.Domhnall O Mocháin.Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).Pádraig O hOgáin (Luimneach).Nicholas Wall.

Níl.

Earnán de Blaghd.Thomas Bolger.Seoirse de Bhulbh.Séamus de Búrca.Sir James Craig.Michael Egan.Patrick J. Egan.Desmond Fitzgerald.David Hall.Thomas Hennessy.John Hennigan.Liam Mac Cosgair.Pádraig Mac Fadáin.Patrick McGilligan.Seoirse Mac Niocaill.Liam Mac Sioghaird.Martin M. Nally.John T. Nolan.

William Norton.Peadar O hAodha.Mícheál O hAonghusa.Seán O Bruadair.Parthalán O Conchubhair.Máirtín O Conalláin.Aodh O Cúlacháin.Eoghan O Dochartaigh.Séamus O Dóláin.Eamon O Dubhghaill.Peadar O Dubhghaill.Eamon O Dúgáin.Seán O Laidhin.Fionán O Loingsigh.Tadhg O Murchadha.Máirtín O Rodaigh.Seán O Súilleabháin.Liam Thrift.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Baxter and Vaughan. Níl: Deputies Dolan and Sears.
Motion declared lost.

I move: "That sub-head A be reduced by £7,745." I shall explain to the Committee that I do so in respect of the item found on page 262 of the Estimates—"Additional Pay to Tradesmen." This is an old topic. The Minister and I had it out last year. The amount paid to soldiers acting as tradesmen and performing tradesmen's duties was out of all proportion to the strength of the Army. Last year this item was estimated higher. It was £98,000. This year the Minister has been able to reduce it to £77,000. I hope that he and the Minister for Finance are grateful to me for showing them how to save £20,000, but the saving is not sufficient. In part, it is an illusory saving, because the Minister told us that they are employing more civilian tradesmen from outside. The Vote for civilian tradesmen is £76,000, in addition to this £77,000. I suggest that if the policy of employing civilian tradesmen at a cost of £76,000 is to be continued, this policy of paying soldiers for doing tradesmen's work in addition to soldier's work should be discontinued. There are one or two cases, such as driving motors and doing electrical work in the engineers, which might be considered as soldier's work, but for the most part it is civilian work. If the policy of employing civilian labour is to be continued then the Vote should be cut to an even greater extent than I have indicated in this amendment.

I do not think the officers enter into this. We have an army of approximately 12,500 men. Of this army, 2,320 are drawing tradesmen's pay. I presume only a small proportion of N.C.O's. are drawing this pay, so that out of 10,000 men, 2,300 are drawing tradesmen's pay. That is out of all reasonable proportion to what the Army ought to need in the way of tradesmen. The Minister has reduced the strength of the fighting soldier while keeping the proportion of men drawing tradesmen's pay. In fact, the proportion has increased. Last year one man in six was drawing civilian pay. This year one man in five is getting civilian pay. I suggest that is indefensible. Last year I proposed to delete the whole amount. This year I am more reasonable. I realise that you cannot abolish the whole thing at once, and I propose now a cut of 10 per cent. That will give the Minister £70,000, which ought to be sufficient. A saving of £7,000, perhaps, is not a glorious achievement to boast about, but it is something and, therefore, I urge the Minister to accept the amendment.

On a point of order, is it requisite in discussing this proposed reduction we should confine ourselves to the discussion of the proposition which the Deputy put forward— that is to say, to the argument in respect of tradesmen's pay, or are we to deal with the sub-head as a whole?

I think, on the analogy of the procedure on the reduction moved by Deputy Wilson in regard to the Gárda Síochána, it would be more suitable if we kept to the point raised by Deputy Cooper, who put down the amendment. If we dispose of that first we can then discuss any other points that may properly be raised under sub-head A.

Why I draw attention to that is that we may desire to reduce the Vote by this or some other sum, but as no amendment has been put down to reduce it in respect of any other item under the sub-head the opportunity of making our protest against the particular items will not arise.

I suggest that it certainly would meet the convenience of the Dáil, and also my convenience, if my amendment was disposed of first. It is not my fault that other Deputies have not put down amendments. Then, possibly, you would permit a general discussion on any points Deputy Johnson or other Deputies may raise under this sub-head.

I am a little perturbed by the style of these proposed reductions. If we divide on this amendment for a reduction of £7,745 we shall be debarred from dividing on amendment No. 4 for a reduction of £30,000, because the motion is to vote a certain gross sum, and the amendment must be to reduce that gross sum. If we decline to reduce it by £7,000, we cannot, at a later stage, agree to reduce it by £30,000.

If it would meet the convenience of Deputy Johnson and the Dáil I am prepared to move my amendment beginning at the largest amount.

There is no validity in that point with regard to the amount. For convenience amendments to sub-heads are allowed. The amendment moved by Deputy Cooper is an amendment to reduce the total sum by £7,745 by reducing sub-head A. It is quite in order for Deputy Cooper under sub-head M to move for a reduction of £30,000. I think any other ruling would cause enormous inconvenience. With regard to the question as whether we should allow a general discussion on this amendment, Deputy Cooper has answered that point satisfactorily.

If a Deputy wishes to move a reduction of £12,000 under sub-head A, and if the Dáil divided on this small reduction, what will be the position then?

Under the different sub-heads?

Supposing an amendment was put down for a reduction by £12,000, and we divided on an amendment which proposed a reduction of £7,000, and that is defeated, how can the other amendment be brought forward?

To that extent we are debarred.

The rule that Deputy Johnson cited with regard to sub-heads A and M is quite valid with regard to sub-head A alone. If we refuse to reduce sub-head A by £7,000, nobody can afterwards move to reduce it by £8,000. That is inherent in the procedure. Deputies who wished to reduce the sub-head by a greater amount than that proposed by Deputy Cooper should have put down amendments for a larger reduction. I may say further that I propose not to accept amendments without notice unless for very grave cause shown.

The question raised by Deputy Cooper was fully threshed out last year, and in view of the discussions that then took place certain economies were made in the allowances to soldier tradesmen. A great many men in the Army come under the head of tradesmen, such as clerks, soldier-typists, tailors, fitters, shoemakers, etc., and they get this additional pay. While it may be said that they are soldiers, I think it will be found that in every army soldiers performing duties of this kind are given additional pay. It is quite necessary and just when a tradesman joins the Army and is put to perform work of a technical nature that he should get additional pay. We have in the Army at present about 900 men who are employed on such duties. There is a pretty large number of. motor drivers and fitters; 99 tailors, 88 shoemakers, and a large number of clerks and storemen. These men earn the additional pay that they get. Tailors perform certain tasks which are paid for by the men, and that money comes back as an appropriation-in-aid. The same thing occurs in connection with the shoemakers. When all the different classes of people employed in this way are taken into consideration, I do not think the amount provided in the Estimate is excessive. While the number of tradesmen getting additional pay may be pretty large, it should be taken into account that on a bigger establishment than we have the percentage would not be so high.

I think Deputy Cooper will agree that it is necessary in every army to have a certain number of people of this kind under your own control that you can command at all times. I do not think it would be suggested, even by Deputy Cooper, that we should depend on civilian tradesmen to do all this work in connection with the Army. That would be a bad policy. It is necessary to have soldiers to do this kind of work who will be under your control, and whom you can call on at all hours of the day and night. I do not want to weary the Dáil by going over the various classes that we have on the establishment, and I will just mention a few. There are bakers, butchers, cabinet-makers, carpenters, cycle mechanics, draughtsmen, electricians, engine-drivers, farriers, fitters, machine-gun artificers, motor drivers, blacksmiths, body - builders, motor mechanics, painters, quantity clerks, rivetters, plasterers, search-light operators, etc. When you tot up all those they come to a pretty large number.

Taking the matter as a whole, I believe we are not in a position to reduce the amount under this sub-head this year. We have made a reduction on last year's Estimate in accordance with the reduction made in the number of men in the Army generally. The percentage may be a half per cent. or something like that; it is not very great. I think we have done as well as could be expected in this matter. It should also be remembered that in the Army Medical Service additional rates of pay are also provided, according to the certificates secured by the men. When a man gets his first certificate he gets 9d. per day; when he gets his second certificate, 1/6; and when he receives his final certificate, 2/-. When a man is put to work at a trade in the Army he must have a certificate of some kind; he must have his trade union card or prove himself to be a man capable of performing the work. Another branch of the service that comes under this particular category is the military police unit. I think it will not be disputed by any body who has seen these men on parade or anywhere else that they are a credit to the country and to the Army.

Deputy Cooper did not deal with the military police.

They are amongst those who get additional pay. I do not think Deputy Cooper has made a strong case for this reduction of £7,000. I am convinced that we require the number of men employed in this way at present, that they are doing good work and earning any money they get.

And more.

As I have said, our policy is to employ more civilian tradesmen and let the soldiers do the work of soldiers. That cannot be done within six months. It must be a gradual process and a beginning has already been made in that respect. Under these circumstances I think the Deputy has not made a case for a reduction in the Vote.

I apologise to the Farmers' Party if I frustrated any deeply-laid design of theirs to effect a substantial reduction under this sub-head. I would be very sorry if I thought that Deputy Wilson had contemplated reducing the Vote by £12,000 before he entered the Dáil this morning, but I think that notion only came into his head at the moment. Now, with part of what the Minister said I agree. You must have a certain number of soldiers employed on civilian duties. Each infantry battalion must have its armourer, its tailor, and above all its shoemaker, prepared to march with it when it goes forward. You cannot depend on civilian contractors for services like these, and the tailor and the shoemaker may be very badly needed in the field. So far I agree. I know that was what the Minister meant when he said that every army has men that get more or less extra pay. But I think he stretched his categories wider than other armies. As to clerks, only one clerk for every thousand men gets extra pay in the British Army— one orderly-room sergeant to a battalion consisting of from 850 to 1,000 men. All other clerks are thankful to do clerk's work because it gets them into an office out of the rain and the cold, and it gets them off the ordinary soldier's duty and so on, so that a man with a little education is thankful to become a clerk because it means an easier and pleasanter life in the army.

When Deputy Cooper speaks of one man as clerk to so many men in the British Army is he taking into account the headquarter staffs or only battalion staffs? Does he include all the army clerks?

I am dealing with battalion units, and I agree the headquarter clerks would raise the number.

Those are all taken in here, and it is upon that basis we make the computation.

That opens up a wider question as to how far our organisation is economic. May I ask do cooks get extra pay?

Yes, they do.

Usually in the British Army you have one sergeant cook to a battalion, and he gets pay, but the ordinary cook does not get extra pay. He is out of the rain; he avoids a lot of worry; he can wear any clothes he likes, and he is generally able to get a better meal than the ordinary man in the ranks. I admit that the cook in the officers' mess gets cook's extra pay. I suggest that the Minister could go a little further in reducing this Vote. I do not believe that a cut of £7,000 would make it impossible to carry out the services desired. We pay £5 per man for soldier-tradesmen, and £6 per man for civilian tradesmen—£11 for every man in the Army on tradesmen pay. It really seems excessive. The Minister does not think that I have made a case for this reduction. I do not think the Minister has made a case against it, so we must leave it to the Dáil to decide.

Deputy Cooper expects men engaged in trades in military barracks to accept a reduction in their rates of pay of ten per cent.?

I do not; I am simply asking the Minister to employ fewer tradesmen in the Army.

The Deputy is asking to have the rates reduced as well as to have the numbers reduced. I think I am right in saying that Deputy Cooper, and others, have tabled these amendments for the purpose of getting employees engaged in outside industry also to accept further reductions in the wages they get?

Not at all.

It is a headline to outside employers, when these men are demobilised to know that the extra pay they got was reduced to 1/-. These men served their time to a particular trade before they joined the Army, and they are giving two services while in the Army. If these men did not get extra pay it would be necessary to have the work they do done by outside contract which might certainly mean that a little more civilian labour would be employed. If that occurs can Deputy Cooper guarantee that the contract will be placed in the hands of Irish firms? He has no guarantee of that. I am sure if it was a question of having the work done by outside contract Deputy Cooper would not object to such contracts being placed in the hands of foreign firms if the work could be done cheaper than in the Saorstát.

If you want reductions in estimates why do you always seek out the worker first? Why does not Deputy Cooper put down an amendment to reduce the salaries of some of the higher officials —the men with £1,200 and £1,700 a year? Why bring forward amendments to reduce by 10 per cent. the wages of the man who has risked his life in the service of the State, and is now giving his skill and labour to the State while he is in the Army? He is doing ordinary work. We are asked to economise and everyone is crying out for economy, but the first man who is to be placed upon the rack of torture by these economists is the worker. This amendment is of the same kind as the rest. They want, first of all, to feel their way by reducing the wages of the workers in the military barracks so that they may set a headline for outside employers.

Deputy Lyons has not studied military organisation as completely as other subjects. I can assure him that I have not the faintest intention that this should have any effect outside or that it should set a headline to outside employers. I went through the estimates, and I tried to put my finger on the items on which I thought too much money was being spent. Deputy Lyons seems to think that I am actuated by class prejudice. I am not. If he would only look at the next amendment he would see that I am moving to cut the pay of the medical service by 10 per cent. also. These men are all qualified doctors. I, personally, would call them workers. I do not know whether Deputy Lyons would call them workers.

They are workers too! Then what about the £1,700 a year men? They work as hard as anyone I know. Does Deputy Lyons think that Ministers are not workers?

Every man who works, whether with the pen or the spade, is a worker.

Then we cannot reduce any estimates at all from Deputy Lyons's point of view, which is possibly shared by the President. I am glad they have something in common. The Deputy is against all reduction. I want to make my position clear. I am not actuated by class prejudice which does not influence me in the least. These men do not enlist in the army to give their skill as tradesmen to the country; they enlist as soldiers, and I want them to do soldiers' duties, not cabinet-makers' duties. It seems to me that while you require a certain number of tradesmen in the army you have too many there at present, and, while I do not want them demobilised and thrown on the labour market, I think they should be trained in military duties—musketry and so on—instead of sitting in an office or a workshop where their services are not needed.

I would like to say that I think the case Deputy Cooper has made is a perfectly sound one, and in accord with the Minister's declared policy. The only question at issue is whether that policy shall be carried through more rapidly than the Minister contemplates. I think it should be carried through immediately.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 23; Níl, 35.

Tá.

  • Pádraig Baxter.
  • Seán Buitléir.
  • Bryan R. Cooper.
  • Sir James Craig.
  • John Good.
  • David Hall.
  • William Hewat.
  • Connor Hogan.
  • Séamus Mac Cosgair.
  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Patrick McKenna.
  • Patrick J. Mulvany.
  • Tomás de Nógla.
  • William Norton.
  • Aodh O Cúlacháin.
  • Eamon O Dubhghaill.
  • Mícheál O Dubhghaill.
  • Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
  • Domhnall O Mocháin.
  • Tadhg O Murchadha.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (Luimneach).
  • Nicholas Wall.

Níl.

  • Thomas Bolger.
  • Seoirse de Bhulbh.
  • Séamus de Búrca.
  • Louis J. D'Alton.
  • Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean Uí Dhrisceóil.
  • Michael Egan.
  • Patrick J. Egan.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • Thomas Hennessy.
  • John Hennigan.
  • Liam Mac Cosgair.
  • Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
  • Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
  • Liam Mac Sioghaird.
  • Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
  • Martin M. Nally.
  • John T. Nolan.
  • Peadar O hAodha.
  • Mícheál O hAonghusa.
  • Seán O Bruadair. Parthalán O Conchubhair.
  • Máirtín O Conalláin.
  • Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
  • Séamus O Dóláin.
  • Peadar O Dubhghaill.
  • Eamon O Dúgáin.
  • Seán O Laidhin.
  • Aindriú O Láimhín.
  • Fionán O Loingsigh.
  • Máirtín O Rodaigh.
  • Seán O Súilleabháin.
  • Mícheál O Tighearnaigh.
  • Patrick W. Shaw.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Nagle and Norton. Níl: Deputies Dolan and Sears.
Motion declared lost.

There are several items under sub-head A that I want to draw attention to, and to extract some information about. The first item is in respect to the pay of officers. I think it is important that we should understand what the policy of the Minister is in regard to the retention of officers, and the position it is intended they shall occupy. As compared with a year ago I find that while a comparison of the Estimates shows a reduction of five in the total number of officers of the general Army, apart from veterinary, legal officers, music-masters, and so on, there has been a very considerable increase in the pay-roll. Last year one Lieutenant-General was noted as being in receipt of £1,000; this year he has £1,150. Seven Major-Generals last year received £5,600; this year, £6,150. In the total we have an increase of about £9,000. I arrive at that figure, £9,000, by taking into comparison the additional pay of officers. The figure this year is £3,741. Last year's Estimate indicated that the number of officers who were in receipt of additional pay was five at 5/- per day. This year there is no figure given as to the number who will be in receipt of additional pay, and no rate per day is stated in the Estimate. On that point I might say that it would be a great convenience if the practice of the other Departments generally could be applied to the Army details so that we could compare on the same page the previous year's figures. I take it that in respect to these officers there is to be added to the pay-roll the usual accommodation, marriage allowance, furniture, and so on, and that that must be taken into account when figuring out our own impressions of the relative positions of officers in the Army with people in civilian occupations. Touching the disposal of these officers, I think some information is required. I am informed, for instance, that there was a period—a considerable period— when the office of Assistant Chief of Staff was deemed necessary, that during the height of the peak number of the Army there was an Assistant Chief of Staff, and that an officer with the rank of Colonel occupied that position.

There was then a period when matters became not so urgent. There was a vacancy in the office and it was not filled, presumably because the need did not arise, in view of the reduction in the total personnel and the activities of the Army. I understand a new appointment has been made to that office of Assistant Chief of Staff, and that an officer, with the rank of Major-General, has been appointed. When matters were critical and difficult, an officer of the rank of Colonel could fill the office, but when matters are quiet and easy, it takes a Major-General to fill the position. The question arises whether it is necessary, for the due accomplishment of the work of the Army, that an officer of that rank should fill an office of that character.

I now come to the question of cadets in the air service. We have, in this year's Estimate, provision made for twenty-six cadets (privates) at 2/6 per day—£1,186. Last year we had estimated for ten cadets at 6/- per day. On the face of it, one would imagine that that showed a reduction in pay, but I gather from the insertion of the word "private" that 2/6 per day is additional to the pay of privates. I do not know whether or not that is the explanation, but it would be well if we had the matter cleared up.

In regard to the School of Music, I want to raise a general question as to the policy of the Army. I do not remember to have heard a case stated in the Dáil in respect of this School of Music. I think it is desirable that we should have put to us the justification for the expenditure of this large sum of money on a School of Music for the Army. I take it that the term used distinguishes it, somewhat, from the ordinary Army bands; that there is something distinctive about it when we describe it as a School of Music and charge it upon the Army Vote. Some justification is required for the expenditure of this very considerable sum. On analysis, I come to the conclusion that the School of Music is costing us from £25,000 to £30,000 per year. I am very doubtful whether we can justify that expenditure. On the face of this Estimate, it would appear that the School of Music is only costing £8,151, but we have to add to that the normal cost of the men who are in the various bands. Assuming that there is the normal proportion of married men and that the lodgment subsistence, provision allowance in lieu of provisions, clothing and equipment charges, are of the normal character, then we have an average of, say, £52 per year as the cost of the bandsmen and officers. In addition to their ordinary pay, this £8,151, it should be noted, is the cost in respect of the bandsmen as distinguished from officers and the additional pay of the men in the band. I think I am right in saying that the amount of military service that bandsmen can give is trifling, and that the Army, as a military force, would not be weakened if it did not contain these 190 or 200 men. There are five bands. Last year it required six officers to control, instruct and direct these bands, with a Colonel Director of Music, at £623 per annum, and a Captain Instructional Officer with £300 per annum. We have the Colonel Director of Music this year at £548 on the Estimate as laid before us, plus additional pay. We have instead of the Captain Instructional Officer with £300, a Commandant Instructional Officer whose pay this year is £365, plus additional pay. Last year we had a Captain-Adjutant at sixteen shillings per day, two Lieutenants at fifteen shillings per day and one Lieutenant at ten shillings per day.

This year, instead of a Captain-Adjutant and three Lieutenants, we have only two Second-Lieutenants at eight shillings per day, but the footnote says in respect to these officers that additional pay is provided. Now, a question arises as to what is meant by additional pay, and we have to refer to last year's Estimate to find that officers' additional pay is at the rate of five shillings per day. I assume that the additional pay for the officers in the School of Music is at the rate of five shillings per day and that that applies to the four officers. If that is the case, we have to add to the figures in front of us £91 5s. for each per annum, which brings the Colonel Director of Music from £623 last year to £639 5s., and the Commandant Instructional Officer who, under the grade of Captain Instructional Officer a year ago, received £300, this year will be in receipt of £456.

But one is also in a difficulty to understand why it should have required six officers a year ago to deal with these bands while four can do it this year. Is that an indication of a change of policy? I find also that the numbers in the bands, Nos. 3, 4, and 5, are increasing. Last year the Estimate was for 25 men for each band, but this year it is increased to 38 men for each band. These are details, of course, and may be explained and justified, but I think it is important that the Dáil should know exactly what is the policy of the Government, what it intends to achieve by the use of these bands. In general, what is the purpose of the School of Music, and is it justifiable that we should spend £28,000, or thereabouts, per annum for this work? I am not to be taken in the slightest degree as minimising the value of military music, or of instrumental music, whether in the Army or outside it. I am, though, somewhat hesitant to believe that a Government should proceed to inculcate a love of music and a standard of music for the country as a whole by means of an Army Vote. We had a discussion a few days ago on the cost of wireless, and some questions were raised as to the justification of that as an educational medium. It is intended in respect of wireless that at some time it shall become self-supporting and that the users of wireless should pay for it. I think we can say very fairly that the musical instruction of the people through wireless has been good, has been valuable, very much more valuable, I venture to suggest, than through the Army School of Music.

I am not decrying the State expenditure of money for the purpose of raising the standard of musical education, but I am questioning the wisdom of doing that work through army bands and dealing with it as a school of music. I have not sufficient knowledge of the practice in other armies, but I have a vague idea that the men in a battalion or a regiment that has a band are very pleased to be able to serve in the band, and I am very doubtful whether it is necessary that the upkeep of bands should cost so much as our bands are costing. We have five bands; we hear of two of them, but five bands are estimated for, and they are costing £5,000 to £6,000 a year each. I think that the Dáil is entitled to some information as to the policy of the Minister in respect of the army bands, whether they are intended as a means of educating the soldiers, of raising their taste, and through them the musical education of the people as a whole. What is the object and purpose? If it is the public as a whole that is in mind rather than the army, I say that this sum ought not to come under the Army Vote, and that the whole organisation should be dealt with in a different fashion. If it is intended to be merely the normal accompaniment of a military force I think the cost is too great and I ask the Minister to give us some enlightenment as to his policy, and the policy of the Executive Council on this question of the Army School of Music.

Would I be in order at this time in discussing the arrears of pay due to those who served in the army during the civil war?

The money we are being asked for now is to pay the existing force. The question of payment of arrears to people not in the existing force would not arise now. If there was a provision for the payment of arrears under sub-head A it would arise, but there is not, and it will not arise at this particular place.

I take it that we are on the main Estimate under sub-head A. We have recently had a division on Deputy Cooper's amendment, the decision being that the Dáil has not been able to accept it as an indication that economy was necessary on this Vote. That being so, I think it is necessary to ask the Minister to give us some indication of a settled policy on the part of the Government as to the continuance of this item in its present form, and, not so much for our own information as for the information of the public, to tell us if he has any settled policy on this question of the need for this organisation on its present basis. Of course, both he and the Minister for Finance have told us that the utmost economy that can be expected to be made in the Army Vote is to bring it down to £2,000,000. I think it is a general criticism that this amount is larger than we can afford to pay, or at all events, that the amount requires a great deal of justification. It is, perhaps, forcing on this question at a time when Ministers may say that they have not had sufficient time to review the whole position in relation to the country and its needs. If that is given as an excuse, they might reasonably claim a further period, at the end of which a declaration of Government policy might be forthcoming.

Is Deputy Hewat not raising the exact question that was discussed on Deputy Heffernan's amendment and upon which it may be assumed that the House actually voted? We had considerable discussion on the question of the general sum, the number of men in the Army, and the Minister's policy generally with regard to the Army from the point of view of numbers and organisation. Now it is proposed to begin that all over again. The question that arises constantly is, not whether a particular thing can be discussed, but whether the particular time at which it is being discussed is the right time. I think that Deputy Hewat is late on this question. When Deputy Heffernan concluded to-day there was a lull before the question was put, and I think that that was the moment for Deputy Hewat to speak on this particular question.

I was rather following the line that Deputy Cooper's and Deputy Heffernan's amendments suggested a definite reduction in the amount of the Vote on specific grounds.

The Deputy wants to know from the Minister why Deputy Heffernan's amendment was defeated. Clearly that is out of order.

Yes, but one would want to have rather nimble wits to follow this thing out to its logical conclusion. No doubt, you, sir, as an impartial person, will be able to form a better judgment as to whether I am in order than I can myself. I was raising on this sub-head A the general question of policy, leaving out the amount.

We have decided that the general question of policy does not arise here. I do not know if Deputy Hewat was here when I made a statement with regard to the procedure on the Estimates. The Minister for Finance, or some member of the Executive Council, moves the main motion for the sum of money required. The Minister in charge of the Department makes a general statement. On that a general debate arises. Or, if an amendment, as in the case of Deputy Heffernan's amendment, is proposed for a substantial reduction of the sum, the general debate on the policy can arise on that. When that has been disposed of, we go through the subheads with a view to discussing the questions that arise on them. Deputy Johnson has raised one already. Deputy Nolan was not able to raise a matter that he wanted to raise, because it did not come under the sub-head. But Deputy Hewat is going into the general question. He is late.

I now understand your ruling and I will try to obey it. I will therefore follow the good example set by Deputy Johnson. I think I could not follow a better example in this matter. Deputy Johnson referred to the bands. I can base my arguments on the question of the cost of the bands. The question of the money that is being expended on them and the necessity for them as a supplementary arm to the Army illustrates the general idea that I am basing my argument on.

The Deputy cannot base his argument on anything if the argument is out of order.

Very well, sir. I am not basing my argument on that. I am basing it on the Estimate for musical instruction in the Army.

It must be a different argument.

I am sorry I have given you so much trouble on this matter. I will not weary the House with these figures in detail. The matter divides itself into this: Is the country, as a whole, satisfied that this amount should be spent for this purpose? On the broad question that the fostering of the musical taste of the people is a very excellent thing, I do not think that there will be any difference of opinion in the House.

When dealing with an Army Vote which provides a very considerable sum of money for musical purposes, the question asked by Deputy Johnson is. I think, a pertinent one, whether it is Army expenditure or educational, and whether it should not come under the Vote of the Minister for Education. The invitation addressed by Deputy Johnson to the Minister to give information as to the policy of the Government in connection with this question of musical instruction is, I think, very opportune. The amount that is being spent under this head is growing, and I think the community as a whole is getting very little value for it. Perhaps the Minister will say that the country is getting full value for the money spent in this way in regard to the morale and efficiency of the Army. Whatever we may say as to its educational value, I cannot conceive the argument being put forward that the Army has had its efficiency so increased by the bands as to justify this addition to the Army Estimate that is put before us for sanction. Perhaps the Minister will base his argument for the retention of this sum on some national need, but in his reply I hope he will concentrate on the question that I have raised, namely, the applicability of charging this sum on the Army Vote for military purposes. If he can do so, well and good. I desire to add my voice to the invitation given to him to give the Dáil a reason why the country should be called upon to pay this very considerable sum of money in this particular way.

I am afraid that not for the first time must I disagree with Deputy Johnson, and not for the first time must I disagree with Deputy Hewat as to the value of an army band. I believe an army band is of value to the army as a whole, and I base my opinion on the fact that when I was a a young man in the British Army I belonged to a regiment, the Royal Artillery, which had only one band. That was a big central band kept at Woolwich. I had to subscribe a day's pay in the year for the upkeep of that band, and in three years I only heard it once. But we all took a pride in our band, and I believe that a soldier of the National Army, whether in Finner or in Killorglin, or in any distant out-station, even though he has not an opportunity of hearing the band, when he reads what it is doing will take a pride in it. I differ further with Deputy Johnson when he says that wireless is doing more than the Army band to cultivate a musical taste. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs can answer me when I say that there has been some very good music given over the wireless and some very bad music of the sentimental ballad concert type.

Much more good than bad I should say.

On balance, perhaps yes, but I have never heard the Army band play bad music yet.

Not the No. 3, 4 or 5?

I have never heard the No. 3, No. 4 or No. 5 bands. As far as I know they are not in being yet, but that they are about to be brought into being. If they are not in being, how could I have heard them play bad music? If I were to attack the Government on the ground of musical education only, I should attack the Gárda band, which seems to be steadily undoing the work of the Army band, but that is perhaps a digression. What I want to point out to Deputy Hewat as a business proposition is that the amount voted for the Army band is not all lost. There is an appropriation-in-aid of £1,000, receipts from band performances, which reduces the balance, and that appropriation, I venture to say, is an under-estimate, because in the Appropriation Accounts for the year 1924-25, which was the first year the band was in being, the receipts from band performances were £1,200.

Does it add to its value to be an army band? Would not any other band do as well?

I thought I had made my point clear already, that it does add to the value of the army that it has an army band. I have no idea as to what the musical attainments of the Minister for Education are. I never heard him sing a song, but I do not think that education has done very much in the direction of music, and I certainly think that a better day's work was never done for music in Ireland than when Deputy General Mulcahy succeeded in getting Colonel Brase to come over here. I think the Minister for Defence has estimated the appropriation-in-aid at much too low a figure. If he got £1,200 under that head from one band—admittedly it was a novelty—I think that with five bands placed in provincial cities and not all concentrated in Dublin—I think there should be a band in Dublin, one, say, at the Curragh, one in Cork, one in Athlone, and possibly one in some other provincial city—you will get more lucrative engagements and possibly have people engaging your Army band for private entertainments, for horse shows and functions of that kind without undue travelling expenses. I urge a policy of decentralisation on the Minister. You can have one band here and let the others be distributed over the country. I believe if you do that you will find that the Army bands will be almost a paying proposition. They can never be entirely a paying proposition, but by a system of decentralisation I believe you will be able to recover half their cost from the revenue you get for band performances.

I leave that and go on to a question which is at once general and specific. I think this question is not out of order, because Deputy Heffernan referred to it in his closing speech, but it was not discussed at length. I want to stress the position of officers in the Army. I would like to see the normal flow of promotions that generally exists in an army. It is not good for officers to realise that they have practically no prospect. Most of those now in the Army came into it four years ago, and a great many of them are still serving in the rank that they served in four years ago, and they see no prospect of getting out of that rank. Are we for ever to have seven Major-Generals revolving round one Lieutenant-General like the moon's Jupiter, occasionally coming up to headquarters here and changing places with the General-in-Command, with no opportunity to people below them, however ambitious and efficient they may be, to raise themselves. That is not a sound military policy. So, too, with each of our 27 Colonels. As far as I can see they will remain colonels till the end of their days. To each of our 29 Majors I might say, "You are a major and a major you will remain." That is not the way to have an efficient or contented army. I was glad to hear the Minister say that he was providing in ducements for retirements. I would like to see him begin at the top which would lead to promotions and an influx of young officers. Is anybody in the Saórstát to-day educating his son to be an officer in the National Army? Does anybody in the Saórstát know what the conditions are of getting a commission in the National Army or what kind of examination has to be passed to get one? I do not think so. We want, if possible, as long as we have an army, to make it a career open to the type of youth who feels an ambition to be a soldier. If he is to come in through the ranks, let it be known if he is to go as a cadet to a military college. To get the really valuable type of young fellow the schoolmaster and the parent should know the conditions of employment in the National Army and the conditions of entry. Ten years hence, practically all the officers you have now will be over 30 years of age. Most of them will be married and will dislike going out at night, and that will not be good for efficiency.

I would like to ask for a little dispensation to travel outside the subject of the band, but before I do so I would like to say that I am wholeheartedly in favour of the band. I have heard it and I was delighted with it and proud of it, and I am only sorry that it does not travel oftener down south so that we may have more opportunities of hearing it. In my district the British army had agricultural battalions. It would serve a very useful purpose if the Minister for Defence would only follow the example of the British Government in that respect. They had within a few hundred yards of my place a couple of hundred acres of land which was devoted to teaching agriculture to young soldiers.

I am afraid the Deputy should raise this on the general question.

I will leave it over for another day. I am sure the Minister for Defence will give it as much consideration as if I were speaking for two hours.

In reply to Deputy Johnson on the question of bands, I think that this service has helped to bring this country back to normality. I think the Army bands have done more than any other service we have to show the people what could be done. The Army band going through the country has done a service the real extent of which we do not know at present, and which perhaps will only be fully appreciated in years to come. Any morning I go into my office I find a number of applications for the service of the band, and they come from people of all shades of opinion in the country. It is not possible to let everybody have the service of the band. I have never yet heard complaints on the head of expenditure, or any other complaint, as far as the band is concerned. On the question as to whether the charge should be an army charge or not, it seems that in the Army, no matter what size or what shape it will take in the future, a band must be provided. It is provided in every army. I am of opinion that the Army is the proper source from which to develop our native music. It has developed it and I believe in times to come it will develop it still further. Deputy Cooper has visualised what my object is regarding the bands. It is not intended to concentrate them in Dublin. As a matter of fact one of the bands at the moment is in Cork, the other is in the Curragh, and No. 1 is in Dublin. I intend to have a band in each command, and I intend getting away from the classification of No. 1 and No. 2 bands. My intention is to make them command bands with one in the Curragh, together with pipers' bands for battalions. The School of Music is serving a useful purpose, and is well worth the money spent on it. I have never heard a person, rich or poor, cavil at the money spent on the Army bands.

Do they know what is spent?

If they read the debates in this House they would get to know what is spent.

I think that is the trouble.

Deputy Hewat, I think, said that we are getting very little value out of the bands.

I did not say that.

I took it down. I do not believe there are many Deputies, or many people in the country who share that opinion with him. Deputy Johnson raised the question of the Assistant Chief of Staff. That is a temporary appointment, and it came about in a peculiar manner. We arranged it because the present holder of the appointment is an officer who is going to America probably before the end of the summer, and he is going there as a general officer. In order to have all our Major-Generals working and have them out in commands, it was necessary to give a temporary appointment to the present holder. Further, it has happened in a case quite recently that he took up command when one of the other general officers was unwell. Deputy Johnson, I think, also raised a question as to the pay of officers. The average pay of officers on the basis of the Army Estimate this year is £276, and last year it was £269. That can be accounted for by the fact that on the 1st October next the Defence Force will be over two years in existence, and under the Defence Force Regulations made three years ago officers will be entitled to an increment at the end of two years. That is the explanation of the difference. With regard to Cadets in the Air Service, 6/- per day was put down last year. That included flying pay. This year flying pay is put down as additional pay, and it amounts to the same thing only it is done in a different way.

May I point out to the Minister the difficulty of reading estimates and comparing them if they are not comparable? If information is not presented to us, they are not easy to follow.

I agree that they are sometimes not easy to follow, but the estimates are presented in the ordinary way as laid down by the Department responsible for their preparation.

I am not at all satisfied with the Minister's explanation with regard to the Army School of Music. I am in agreement with him when he says that the Army band has been useful in soothing the savage breast.

But we are now dealing with the Estimates for the future. And the assumption is that this is a normal Budget. The Minister takes the view that I rather expected him to take, and it is a kind of justification that I have heard made in private conversation that the Army band is the proper source—I am quoting his words—"from which to develop our native music." That is a proposition that I am querying, whether if it is part of Governmental policy to develop native music, it should be done deliberately by the establishment of a school of music attached to the Army, or should be a quite distinctive operation, not an army operation at all? I venture to say that if we would be prepared to pay £5,000 per band for any five other bands in the country, we would get at least as good value in developing a public interest in native music or foreign music. The designation, "School of Music," seems to require a particular class of officer, a particular class of direction and presumably very much more application to the tuition than an ordinary band would require. I venture to say that you would be able to do very much better work for the country, despite the more competent judgment of Deputy Bryan Cooper in the matter of music than mine. I make the affirmation that you would do better work for music and for the development of musical culture in the country if you could subsidise five bands at £5,000 per year each than you are doing now by paying £28,000 for bands in the Army. No doubt bands are useful accompaniments to a regiment or battalion or company. But I do not think that it is necessary for the morale and the spirit of the Army or of a battalion that it should have a particularly highly trained band. I say again that the additional amount of money spent in this school of music could be better spent for purposes which the Minister has outlined, that is, the musical education of the people, if it were spent through other processes and apart from the Army altogether. We might as well face the fact that army bands have been encouraged and developed with a view to encouraging a martial spirit and to attract recruits to the colours. I think that is the true genesis of bands in connection with regiments. It is to encourage the martial spirit and not to develop their musical instincts and musical education. When we have the Minister avowing that he is going to use the army for the purpose of educating the people, well we are reversing the right process and I think we are entirely on a wrong track. If your Army is to be reduced down to the numbers, that by 1928 are even suggested as possible, then you may have in the future a corps of officers and a very small force of regular soldiers with a large number of reserves. Are you still going to retain the Army band as a means of educating the public militarily? It will not then, surely, be asserted that you require an Army band for the purpose of inspiring the soldiers when you have only 5,000 of them as regular men. You will then want to know how you will develop the musical spirit and the musical knowledge of the people. Surely you are not going to say that this method of utilising the Vote for the purpose of developing musical culture is to be a permanent process. I make that protest after the Minister's avowal in justification of this Vote of £28,000 for the Army School of Music. That avowal, that the Army is the proper source from which to develop native music, is an avowal which indicates a false view and a source of very bad military and educational policy.

As a matter of explanation, I might say that I was particularly concerned to try to extract from the Minister the policy, generally speaking, that is going to be adopted. I did indicate that the amount of money that is being spent in this connection in the Army was such that it was questionable whether the bulk of the people were deriving any benefit from it. But in answer to that the Minister said he is going to have the bands situated in certain districts, and they are going to disseminate from these centres musical education. I am only anxious to get at what is in the minds of the Minister and the Executive, and let us see plainly what it means to the country. The Minister on this Vote justifies an expenditure of £28,000 as—as Deputy Johnson puts it—a subsidy in connection with the musical education of the military bands. That is a plain issue, and if the country wants £28,000 spent in this way, and considers it is getting value for the money, well and good. I contest the reasonableness of that proposition. The bands are going to be situated at headquarters. The only object that I can see is going to be achieved by that is that these places are going to be centres of musical entertainment. That may be very desirable, but I agree with what Deputy Johnson said that for the purpose of encouraging a taste for music and fostering musical education, if the country has £28,000 to spare, it could be much more effectively spent in fostering music over a larger portion of the community. It can be much better spent. The Minister says that there is a great demand for these bands to play at functions. Now, is it essential that the bands that play at these functions should be military bands? Is it the best course to attach this charge to the Army organisation? Is the money that is to be spent in this way in the Army a reasonable proportion of the expenditure on the Army as a whole, as it is going to be, not as it is to-day? There, again, what is the Army policy of the Government? I say emphatically that if the country has £28,000 to spend for musical education—I think that probably it will be well spent money if they have got it to spare—the Army is not the right centre or the natural centre from which to get the best value for that money.

I would like some guidance as to whether, in reference to the item under this sub-head "Military Police—additional pay," this is the right occasion on which to raise a question as to the use of military police in respect to these buildings and the use of the military for the purposes of sentry duty in the same connection. Could that matter be raised now or on the Oireachtas Vote? My object in raising this matter is that I want to protest against the use of military police at the entrance gates and the continual armed guard, with bayonats fixed, doing sentry duty, challenging Deputies by inference as they come into and go out of Leinster House.

That matter can be raised under this sub-head and the Minister will reply in due course.

It is a matter of importance, I think, that the Dáil, representing the people as a civil institution—the legislature—should be detached from appearances, wherever possible, of military protection. I think we are long past the time when it should be required that the entrance gates to this building should be guarded by military forces. No doubt, some guard is required to regulate the incoming and outgoing of the public. but I think it is desirable, if not necessary, that the guard should be a civil guard—either an officer of the House or a member of the Gárda Síochána. There are military police on duty at the gate. Why military police I do not know. I think it is most undesirable that we should be challenged every time we enter through the entrance gates of the building by a military man with a massive revolver in his belt. I think, further, the constant working to and fro of sentries with bayonets fixed gives an impression that we have to be guarded from the public in our deliberations—that it is necessary to have an armed guard to prevent the public attacking us. That is an inference that could be drawn.

It is long past the time when an armed guard was needed, and it is certainly now the time when any guard placed upon this House should be a civil guard, not a military guard. I raise the question because I see the item "Military Police" here, and that involves military men—I do not know how many in rotation—standing at the gate. In addition, of course, there is the question of the guard on the premises. There are two units involved— the military police guarding the gate and the regular military guard on sentry duty. I hope other Deputies will support me in this protest, and, that we shall find when we next meet that a change of policy in this matter has been effected.

It is a question of judgment as to whether or not a guard should be outside the Parliament House. I do not know whether Deputy Johnson has had experience of other Parliamentary buildings. He has not said so. I have had experience of one on the Continent and a guard was kept there comprising many more soldiers than are on guard here.

I can say I have experience of three Parliament Houses: the House of Commons, the Capitol and the Parliament House in CzechoSlovakia, and in no case was there any sign of a military man in or about the premises.

I have been at the Parliament House in Paris and I have observed soldiers on duty there.

I think it is rather an unwise comparison for the President to make—to take these highly militarised countries as an example that we should blindly follow.

It appears we never can take an example that suits whoever is making the case against us. Deputy Heffernan told us yesterday that we are slavishly copying Britain and in the next moment he gave us a British example to suit his own case. Examples vary just when they suit.

The matter raised by Deputy Johnson is one that requires mature consideration from the House and the Ministry. Frankly, I am of opinion that the military are out of place here altogether. On the other hand, the Government may, from inside information at their disposal, consider that the military guard is necessary for certain protective purposes. If the guard is necessary, I am not going to put my judgment against the Government's more intimate knowledge of the subject. I cannot conceive that there is really any need, or should be any need, for a military display around these buildings at the present time. Unless there is some reason for their retention, they ought to be removed at the earliest possible moment, with due consideration, of course, in regard to the safety of the building.

Sub-head A 1 raises another educational matter in connection with the Army. It is very hard to say whether there is a real need for a military educational course abroad for specially selected officers. I understand that originally there was a proposal connected with the Air Force to undertake a course of training in connection with a projected trip to America.

Of course, I think the Air Force is a useful branch to make efficient. On account of its technical nature if it were confined to officers there could be no objection. If it is a general military question of the £5,000 being wanted, and not for a technical branch of the Army. I think it is the commencement of an unwise policy.

This question has been threshed out on two occasions, and the reason of this mission to America has been fully explained to the Dáil. We feel that we should have a school in which to train our officers properly, and in order to get the best knowledge we are sending this delegation to America. I believe when these officers come home they will be able to impart knowledge to the officers at home who will go through the school of instruction, and that not only is it money well spent, but it is money which it is essential to spend. No one can say, with our Army three or four years in existence, that it can be expected to have officers as capable as officers of other armies with hundreds of years of training and tradition behind them. That is why we want to go to America which has, I believe, one of the best schools as far as army organisation and training is concerned. France might be nearer, or other places. But in those countries you have the language difficulty to contend with. When this delegation comes back and when the school is set up, it will be of certain benefit to army officers, and will show them what training is necessary. We will be able to adapt ourselves to a proper course of instruction and our officers will be as capable then as those of any other army.

How many are going, and for what period?

Six are going and the original intention was for 12 months.

In connection with sub-head A 2, gratuities to officers on voluntary retirement, may I ask the Minister what is the position now as regards the replacing of officers retiring? I think it has been indicated that the number of officers is already out of proportion to the rank and file of the Army, and this would indicate that some of the officers are going out. Would the Minister say what he is proposing to do with regard to the taking on of further officers?

It is not proposed to take on any other officers in the Army. What we propose to do, as stated, is to take in a certain number of cadets. These will be coming along gradually, and, in the normal course of time, will be able to fill the places of the officers who retire voluntarily or leave the Army for any other cause. It is well known that there is a good deal of talk about the proportion of our officers to men. When you take the armies of Europe and America you will find the average is 12.7 and our percentage is 11.57. We are not even up to the average of officers, taking the armies of Europe, America, and the British Army.

As far as the officer personnel is concerned, as I explained yesterday, there was a number of men kept on in the Army during the crisis who could have got their gratuities at that time. They saw that the country needed their services. Later they found that the Army was a career they were not intended for, and some of them will be willing to take the gratuity offered, but, as I said yesterday, no officer will be forced or asked to take the gratuity, and in certain cases I will refuse officers the gratuity, whether they are willing to take it or not. They cannot come in wholesale and say "We will take our gratuity." It is only people who get leave to surrender their commissions who will get it.

Is it proposed to indicate to those whom you think are acceptable that they may surrender their commissions?

No, it will be left to the voluntary act of the officers.

I want, from the Minister, some indication that he recognises that the trend of public opinion is is in the direction that this country, when it settles down to normal conditions, will not need a standing Army of any great dimensions. Whether that is the general opinion, or will take the form of being the predominant opinion or not, is quite another matter, but at present any expansion of the Army organisation, on its present basis, will be against that opinion.

The Deputy is trying to get in what he failed to get in a while ago.

How many men does the Minister estimate this sum of £5,000 will give a gratuity to? What would the average scale of salary be?

£260 or something like that.

Then you can give a gratuity to about 20 persons?

I cannot tell you how many persons may apply. Ten might apply.

Then we must recognise that this amount is put down haphazard and may not be needed at all.

I think I can guarantee to the Deputy that it will be needed.

With regard to sub-head B—Marriage Allowance— I should like some information from the Minister as to whether it is proposed to give an allowance to men who enlist only for short periods. I think that is scarcely desirable. I can understand that in the British Army, where you had a service of 21 years, it was desirable that marriage allowance should be given, but in our Army it is only a matter of two years. Does it not seem to come as a very serious charge that in an Army of less than 14,000 you have one man in every seven receiving 3/9 a day marriage allowance? I presume this 2,000 is inclusive of a large proportion of officers.

We are not enlisting any married men, and any man who marries now does not get on the strength, as far as marriage allowance is concerned. Those are old soldiers who have their rights, but any soldier who marries now marries at his own risk, just as Deputy Connor Hogan might.

I move:—

"That sub-head E be reduced by £4,300."

This proposed reduction represents a cut of 10 per cent., and it is intended as an indication to the Minister and his Department that the cost of medical services is out of all proportion to the strength of our Army. We have certain figures as to the number of doctors, and I have excluded from these calculations, doctors employed at Army pension work, as I feel that they should not be included in this Vote but in the Army Pension Vote. Last year we had 72 doctors and this year the number is 71. The strength in men of the Army has been reduced by about 4,000 and the strength in doctors has been reduced by one, so that you require only one doctor less for an Army of 12,500 than for an Army of 16,500. Last year there was one doctor to every 230 men, and this year you have one doctor to every 176 men. That is an abnormal proportion. Take all ranks of the Medical Service, not only officers but men getting certificate pay and nurses, and it will be seen that, whereas last year there was one man in the Medical Service for every 35 men in the Army, this year the proportion is one to thirty-two. The British proportion is 1 to 40, and that for an army stationed all over the globe.

As regards the Nursing Service, last year there was one nurse to every 350 men, and this year the proportion is one nurse to every 250 men, whereas in the British Army it is one nurse to every 550 men. I assume that all of these nurses are at St. Bricin's or at the Curragh, and that they are not scattered all over the country. If that is so, the actual ratio of nurses to patients on 1st April was one nurse to slightly over four patients. That is utterly unusual, so far as a civil hospital is concerned, as there you have a proportion of one nurse to ten, or twelve, and sometimes more patients. I would like to call the attention of the Minister and the Committee to the cost of maintenance in St. Bricin's hospital and in the Curragh hospital. The daily cost of a patient in St. Bricin's is 12/9 and at the Curragh 9/6—a difference of 3/3. I hope the Minister will explain the difference. That daily difference, multiplied by 100, the number of patients, multiplied by 365, the number of days in the year, would amount to a considerable sum. On 1st April, of the 260 beds available in the Curragh, 70 were occupied. There were, at the same time, 99 serving soldiers and 35 ex-soldiers in St. Bricin's, and as the cost of administration is cheaper at the Curragh I would like to know whether some of these patients at St. Bricin's could not have been moved to the Curragh where there were, at least, 160 vacant beds.

I suggest that all these matters could be well inquired into. The cost of the Medical Services in the Army on this Vote is £42,000, and add to that the pay of the rank and file of about 300, and in addition their certificated pay, travelling expenses, and rations, and it will prove a low computation to say that the Medical Services cost £4 per head for every man in the Army. I think that is an under-statement. The Minister for Justice is able to give Gárdaí in country districts an allowance of £1 4s. 0d. per head. These forces are recruited under very similar conditions. They can pick and choose their men and submit them to a medical examination. I cannot see why the cost of the Medical Services of the Army should be more than three times that of the Gárdaí, and therefore I beg to move my amendment.

I support the amendment. Any criticisms which I make will not be directed to any inefficiency on the part of the Medical Services. I want to emphasise the fact that I have no fault to find with the efficiency of those services nor with the pay that is given to the medical men. I have said in connection with other matters that if you want efficiency you must pay for it, but I do object to the number of men employed to-day on the work required by those Medical Services. In connection with last year's Budget, I went over these items without knowing as much as I do now. We know now that the number of beds in St. Bricin's Hospital is 256, and the number in the Curragh is 236. Therefore, there are 492 beds available between the two hospitals. The average number of beds occupied in St. Bricin's Hospital was 109 out of a total of 256. At the Curragh the average number of beds occupied was 143 out of 236. That is to say, that out of a total capacity of 492 beds there were only 252 occupied on an average during the year—nearly half the beds were lying empty. The average at St. Bricin's was only 109 out of 256 beds. The cost per bed at St. Bricin's was given by the Minister as 12/9 per day, £4 9s. 0d per week, or £232 per annum. On the other hand, the cost at the Curragh was given as 9/6 per day, £3 6s. 6d per week, or £173 per year. The point I want to stress is that if the 109 patients treated at St. Bricin's had been treated at the Curragh at the lesser cost which obtains there, there would have been a saving of no less than £6,400. I do not know how the Minister for Defence is going to get over those figures.

Last year I asked why St. Bricin's Hospital should not be closed, and why the Army should not have its hospital near the chief training establishment at the Curragh, where the air is pure. I did not know then, what I know now, that the cost is £59 per bed per year less at the Curragh than at St. Bricin's. Not only that, but we have the fact alluded to by Deputy Cooper, that on the 1st April this year there were only 204 patients in the two hospitals. The Curragh Hospital contains 236 beds; St. Bricin's 256, and on the 1st of last month there were only 204 patients altogether. Again, I stress the fact that if the 109 patients treated at St. Bricin's had been treated at the Curragh, there would have been a saving of £6,400, according to the figures I have before me. The cost at St. Bricin's of the 109 beds occupied was a little over £25,000, and the cost of the 143 patients treated at the Curragh a little under £25,000, so that the total cost was about £50,000, according to the figures supplied to us already by the Minister.

It is not, perhaps, fair to make comparisons with the civil hospitals, because the doctors who attend the civil hospitals are not paid, and the Army pays its medical officers. The actual cost in Steeven's Hospital, however, is £2 6s. 6d. per bed per week, including fire, light, and a great many things which, perhaps, are not included in the Army figure of 12/9 per bed per day.

Everything is included.

Very well then, there is a fair comparison. In Steeven's Hospital the cost per bed per week is £2 6s. 6d., as against the £4 9s. in St. Bricin's. As I stated on previous occasions, once you start to run an hospital either by the State or by a municipal authority you will practically pay double what you would pay if the hospital were run by an economical committee of persons interested in hospital work. The point I make is that the total cost of those patients at St. Bricin's and the Curragh amounted to £50,000, and if these patients had been treated at a civil hospital, such as Steeven's Hospital or the Richmond— the Richmond figure is a little higher, £2 11s.—they would have cost £32,760 as against the £50,000 paid, making a difference of £17,000. That is, £17,000 should represent the salaries to medical officers, because in every other respect the items are identical. The Army hospitals pay their nurses and the nurses are also paid in the civil hospitals. The Army hospitals have contracts for their supplies as the civil hospitals have. The only one particular in which there is a difference is in connection with the payment of the medical men.

Now I come to the point alluded to by Deputy Cooper: the extraordinarily large number of medical officers employed in the Army. There were 252 beds occupied during the year in the two hospitals. Ten medical officers should be capable of looking after that number of patients. In any of the civil hospitals one medical officer thinks nothing of looking after thirty patients. There is no reason why more than ten medical officers should be employed in that service. I grant you seven medical officers for pensions work, because I do not know what they have to do, but it would require a great deal of pension work to keep seven medical officers constantly employed. Ten men will probably be wanted to visit outlying stations.

Perhaps the Deputy would tell me how many medical officers there are in those two hospitals? I think the Deputy is in a fog. I should like to know how many medical officers does he mean?

If the Minister tells me I will know. How could I know? I know how many there ought to be, but I do not know how many there are.

There are four in the Curragh hospital: one senior surgeon, one junior surgeon, one senior medical officer, and the officer commanding. There are six at St. Bricin's, who do the work of two or three barracks also, together with the pensions work. It is all very well to say there are ten doctors doing a certain amount of work. That is the amount of work done by those medical officers.

I was suggesting ten could do this work.

Ten medical officers are doing it.

But there are seventy-one medical officers altogether. What are the others doing?

I will explain that.

I leave out the Colonel and the two Majors. They are not supposed to do anything but administrative work or extra work. I would allow ten men for visiting outlying stations; ten men to attend the hospitals, and seven for pensions work. That is a total of thirty medical officers, which, in my opinion, would be absolutely ample. I do not know how the Minister can defend a greater number than that. That would be decreasing the present number by more than half. Deputy Cooper has shown the high proportion of medical officers to men in the Army. I need not go into that, nor need I refer to the high proportion of medical officers to patients. If the Minister is able to show what other services these medical officers perform, besides attending the hospitals, doing pensions work, and visiting outlying patients, I will be found quite reasonable in the matter. He has, however, given figures which show that the hospitals are run at an extravagant rate. I could not find any fault with the Curragh. I think the Curragh is run at a fairly reasonable rate, but I do say that St. Bricin's, which costs £232 per bed per year, as against averages of £120 and £134 for two of the civil hospitals, is a tremendous extravagance and I do not see how the Minister is going to defend it.

I suggest that St. Bricin's should be closed. There is plenty of room in the Curragh; it is a healthier place; it is in the centre of the chief training school, and is being run on an economical basis that would appeal to all of us here.

I desire to support the proposal made by Deputy Cooper. I do not know that I would not have gone a little further and suggested a further diminution in the amount of the Vote. I say nothing about the nurses, but I find here an item for a Radiologist. What a Radiologist has to do in times of peace I fail to see. I do not see why one of the medical officers would not do the radiological work. What radiological work can there be except a broken leg I cannot understand, and I do not know what else he could be employed on in an army when there is no war service, and little except attending to broken limbs caused by accidents. The Minister for Defence will, I hope, take my criticisms in the spirit in which they are meant. So far as the remarks of the President are concerned, that there is a great deal of hypocrisy connected with these criticisms, there is no hypocrisy so far as I am concerned. I epeat what I said last year that there are sufficient beds in the Curragh to treat those patients sufficiently. We have the figures that there are 236 beds in the Curragh, while there were not more than 204 patients in both hospitals on the 1st April.

One other remark. When discussing this matter last year the answer I got from the Minister for Defence, who then was not so familiar with the details of his Department, was that they were going to use St. Bricin's Hospital for pensioners. The number of pensioners present at St. Bricin's on 1st April this year was eleven. I do not know whether it is intended to keep open St. Bricin's Hospital for the treatment of that number of pensioners. I find also when I look, tucked away in another estimate, a sum of something like £9,000 for the treatment of these pensioners. The Minister said that I was getting into a fog. It is no wonder when I find pensioners here treated by medical officers, and then find £9,000 allotted to the medical expenses of pensioners. Where does that go? or what is it? I should like to know that also.

I would like to have from the Minister, when he replies, an assurance that patients in St. Bricin's get adequate treatment. I have had several complaints that patients there were not getting proper food and medical attention. I should be glad to hear the contrary was the case. I think the welfare of these patients should have the keen attention of the Minister, and I hope that in future I will not receive any complaints in reference to the treatment of these patients.

I am against Deputy Cooper's amendment. There is no reason why Irish soldiers should not be as well entitled to competent doctors as British soldiers. If we contrast the pay of the British Army doctor with the Irish Army doctor we find it very striking. For instance, the Director-General of the British Army gets £7 a day. In the Free State he gets £3 19s., which is little more than half. The Deputy Director-General in England gets £5; here the Deputy Director gets £2 14s. The Director of Hygiene in England gets £3 14s., while here he gets £2 2s. Medical officers in the British Army are working under a generous service pensions scheme, and have a liberal financial allowance, if they leave the army before reaching the period at which they would be entitled to their pension. For instance, a captain after five years service gets £1,000 on leaving the Army; a major gets £2,500 after six years service as major. Our army doctor gets nothing on leaving; he is only there from year to year, or from six months to six months. Moreover, he leaves the army, either voluntarily or compulsorily, without any pension, and he finds that his service in the army has not helped him to get on in civilian practice. In fact, he finds that he has lost heavily by having been in the army medical service when he comes out to compete with colleagues of his own time who started some two or three years previously in civilian medical practice.

The cost of the hospitals has been stressed and the cost of treatment in the military hospitals in the Free State has been compared with the cost of hospital treatment of patients in civilian hospitals in the Free State. We must remember that the civilian hospitals are charitable hospitals. Doctors charge nothing for their service to patients in these hospitals. I do not think that it would be acceptable to the medical profession in Dublin, now that they are giving their services to the hospitals for nothing, to ask them to treat patients in the Free State Army for nothing. If you add what a doctor in a hospital would feel entitled to charge for an operation on a soldier to the cost, I believe that treatment in civilian hospitals would be far in excess of what it is at present. There is another way of calculating it that will give an idea of the expenses of the treatment of soldiers. The average expense of each soldier, over the whole service, for medical attendance is something about 30/- a year. That is purely the doctor's part of it. That compares with 24/- for the Gárda Síochána. The soldier gets hospital treatment, whereas the Gárda gets no hospital treatment. That is one way of looking at it, and I think it will convince Deputies that we are not paying so much after all for the treatment of our soldiers.

Now we will take the staffing of the civilian hospitals. I do not think the comparison is exactly fair. However, to give an idea I will take some illustrations. St. Vincent's Hospital has 175 beds. The surgical staff consists of three senior men and three junior men. The medical staff consists of three senior and three junior men. The Richmond Hospital has 400 beds, and it has three senior surgeons and three junior surgeons, and the medical staff has three senior and three junior men. Now we come to the Curragh, where there are 300 beds. Even admitting that they are not all occupied, we have only one senior surgeon and one junior as compared with three senior and three junior in each of the civilian hospitals I have mentioned, and on the medical staff we have only one senior man as compared with three in the civilian hospitals. In St. Bricin's, with 200 beds, there is only one senior surgeon and one junior, and the medical staff consists of one senior physician and two juniors.

May I point out that the Deputy is all wrong in his figures as to beds.

I will leave that to the Minister for Defence. Now, the highest officer in the Army Medical Service in the Free State, the Director of Medical Services, is at present paid £1,400 as compared with the British corresponding medical officer, who receives £2,500.

When the Free State was set up and the Army organised, the Director of Medical Services got £2,400. There is a big drop between 1922 and 1926-27, from £2,400 to £1,400. It is the same in the case of all the other officers. The cost of the Army Medical Service in 1922-23 reached £57,000. I believe it will be down this year to something like £33,000. I am not including in that the cost of non-commissioned or unqualified men. There is a Pensions Department consisting of a president, a sergeant and four medical officers. That looks a big staff, but it must be remembered that these doctors also carry out a certain amount of medical treatment. The medical officers attached to the hospitals are responsible for the treatment, in many cases, of soldiers' dependants in barracks and do a considerable amount of midwifery. In the British Army the medical officer is never called upon to do midwifery. A civilian doctor is called in. In the circumstances I think the case against the Army Medical Service in the Irish Free State has been very much over-stated. I am not speaking about their work, of which I am personally aware, but, as Deputy Sir James Craig has stated, it is of a very excellent character. I do not think that Deputy Cooper has made a case for a ten per cent. reduction in this service, and I am rather surprised that he should have suggested it in the circumstances.

To start with, I think that Deputy Cooper was thinking of a field division of the British Army, irrespective of the hospital administration or the depots. I think the Deputy has taken the number of doctors who would move with a division.

I did not bring in any comparison. I compared the cost and the number of medical services, generally.

I think you compared the number of medical officers as well.

No, I compared the number of medical officers we have this year and the number last year. Last year there was one to every 330 men, and this year one to every 176.

The number of medical officers actually employed with the troops is 71, seven of which are dealing with pensions and ten are dental officers, leaving 54 available. That gives an average of one medical officer for every 231 non-commissioned officers and men. The British establishment is 584 officers for 142,989 of other ranks. If you take the average, it gives one medical officer for every 245 other ranks, when you take into account the organised services of the British Army. Again, if you take it that in a cavalry brigade you have 1,144 men there are six field medical officers and other ranks of the medical service 118. An Irish brigade consists of 2,064 men and has three field medical officers and 54 other ranks. If you take what corresponds to the Irish Army in the British Army, an infantry division of 18,073, you have 51 field medical officers and 647 other ranks.

That is on war strength. In peace time there would be about three.

The Irish Army, with practically 17,000 men, have 32 field medical officers and 300 other ranks.

Is the Minister right in his statement that the strength is 17,000?

He is not estimating for that.

I am taking the figure on the basis of an infantry division. We had 17,000 men last year, and I am giving you the actual number of medical officers, comparing our Army of 17,000 men with a division of the British Army. A good deal of play has been made regarding St. Bricin's Hospital. It fulfils a great many functions. Every pensioner who comes up to a medical board and who goes into hospital in order that his disability may be reduced, is treated in St. Bricin's. It is not possible, in my opinion, to send that pensioner into any private hospital in Dublin, because you must have records, so as to be able to show everything that happened to that individual from the day he was wounded to the date his final disability is assessed. That could not be done in a private hospital. It was stated that St. Bricin's costs more than the Curragh. It does, and for this reason, that in the Curragh you have the ordinary out-of-bed patient, who does a lot of work that has to be paid for in St. Bricin's Hospital, where you have different classes of the community treated. Some of the patients may have been Irregulars but are entitled to wound pensions, and before getting them they are sent there occasionally to be examined. You have civilians there and you would not have the same control over them as you have in a purely military hospital. These things are never taken into account as far as I can see. When the case is examined fully, and in a broad spirit, it will be found that St. Bricin's has done more service, perhaps, than the general public realise. It was stated that there were so many patients in the Curragh and in St. Bricin's on 1st April. Deputies should go back and take the number of patients over 12 months. A day and an hour could probably be taken and figures quoted to suit any argument, but the average figure should be taken.

That is the figure you gave us.

Seventy-nine—the figure on the 1st April—is not the figure to take.

One hundred and nine.

It is very easy to say that 30 medical officers should be sufficient, that 10 should do the Curragh, 10 St. Bricin's, and 10 or 15 the other parts of the country. Does Deputy Sir James Craig mean to tell me that it is possible to send a medical officer around to each of the 28 battalions in the country? When the organisation is completed we would have 18 or 19 battalions. If you had to send medical officers to scattered posts you would have them flying all over the country. It is very easy to say that one medical officer must look after a certain number of patients, but, as Deputy Cooper knows, in the military service there are inspections that must be made daily.

By a doctor?

I certainly do not know that.

I said that Deputy Cooper knows inspections have to be carried on.

I said not by a doctor.

I do not want to refer to what happened sometimes in the British Army when a man reported sick. A corporal or a sergeant would come along and examine him, and if he was not too bad he was told to go to bed for a couple of days. Then, if he did not recover, the doctor saw him after some days. That is not the way I want to treat my men.

I am sorry I misunderstood the Minister. I thought he was alluding to inspections from the sanitary point of view and not to sick parades.

I was not alluding to sanitary inspections at all. Sick parades are held every morning and the doctor must be in attendance. If there are outposts, the doctor must examine the men on the outposts. A doctor with a battalion has plenty to do. He must keep his own records, as he has no clerical assistance. If he is asked for the record of any man from the time he entered the Army until he left it, whether the information is required for pension or for other purposes, he must be able to put his finger on it. It is sometimes forgotten that, in addition to the doctors out with battalions, we must have a headquarters staff. We must have bacteriologists and radiologists. The radiologist is employed every day of the week on these pension cases. There is any amount of work for him. I do not see how you can dispense with any of these men, except you simply provide every man who makes application to the Pensions Board with a pension for life. If the Dáil is willing to vote the money and is ready to adopt that course, well and good.

Does the Minister propose that?

I do not. But if the House wants to adopt that course it can. Deputy Sir James Craig says that that is the proper course to adopt.

I did not say that. I granted seven pension officers. The Minister has no right to say that I suggested that there should be nobody to look after pensions.

Deputy Sir James Craig suggested in addition three officers. The Minister is fighting a case that was not put up.

I am fighting the case as it appears to me. I think I have a good case, and that is the reason I stated what I did. As regards the £9,000 which Deputy Sir James Craig says he discovered in some back corner of the Estimates, that is in respect of hospital treatment, and it represents a transfer of the cost of such treatment which, in the first instance, is charged against the Army Vote. It will come back as an Appropriation-in-Aid. There is no hugger-mugger about it. It is set out openly there.

Is it provided for in the Appropriations-in-Aid?

It is simply a transfer from one vote to the other. Looking at this matter dispassionately, I think it will be seen that whilst, at the moment, there may be a doctor or two additional, the number is not superfluous. We are not employing any more doctors, and as the number of battalions come down the strength of the Medical Service will be reduced. But when there were 27 battalions in the Army, it would be impossible to do with less than one medical officer for each battalion. I visited myself during the past six months over 50 posts. That is not taking into account the outposts. There are 100 posts altogether, but there are 53 established posts. They are not all battalion headquarters.

How many battalion headquarters are there? Is the number 27?

How many will there be?

About 20 when reorganisation is complete. The number of medical officers will consequently come down. I could quote figures for Deputies but I am not sure that they would serve any purpose except to confuse the House and perhaps confuse myself. But I put it to the Dáil that no case has been made for a reduction.

Would the Minister indicate what sub-head in the Appropriation Account this item of £9,000 comes under?

The Minister for Defence, in defending the high cost of the Medical Service, is apparently not aware of the policy pursued by the Minister for Local Government in regard to the treatment of Dispensary Medical Officers. They have much lower salaries than the Army Medical Officers. They are employed in the rural districts and they have far more extensive districts to cover than the Army Medical Officers have.

They are part-time men.

Are these men whole-time officers?

If the Deputy allows me to proceed, I will make my own case and he can make any case he pleases for the high cost of the Army Medical Service. I did not think that was part of the policy of the Farmers' Party.

If the Deputy chooses to enter into personalities, he will get as much as he likes.

I am not entering into personalities.

I want to warn you not to make personal observations.

Deputies must address the Chair and not address each other.

I recently had occasion to bring to the notice of the House the attitude of the Minister for Local Government in regard to the reorganisation of dispensary districts in my own constituency.

I am not responsible for that.

I merely want to point to the lack of understanding and cooperation between members of the Ministry in regard to a matter which should be the subject of common policy. The same policy should apply all round—both to the medical officers of the Army and to the dispensary district medical officers in the rural areas.

Might I quote Deputy Morrissey on a famous occasion and ask: "What about the rural district councils?"

The Minister for Finance and his colleagues have got rid of these bodies and I do not see that his observation has anything to do with the matter.

What about the dispensary doctors?

I merely make the comment that the policy pursued by the Minister for Defence and the arguments put up by him in defending this pretty heavy estimate represents a policy different from that pursued by the Minister for Local Government. I think I am entitled to introduce a case of this kind for the purpose of comparison. I had occasion, as I stated, to bring under the notice of the House, arising out of an unsatisfactory answer given me by the Minister for Local Government——

We are not dealing with the Minister for Local Government now.

Ministers as well as Deputies often wander from the point. I would like to ask the Minister for Defence if he could give us, in the case of the Army medical officers, the average cost, including subsistence allowance, upkeep of cars supplied by the Army Council, where so supplied, and including all other allowances to which these officers are entitled. Would the Minister say, for instance, whether motor cars are supplied to these officers and whether chauffeurs, paid out of Army funds, are employed whole-time in driving these officers around their districts. Would he say also if any subsistence allowance is received by the individuals concerned and give us the total average cost of the officers that I refer to? If Deputies go closely into the Estimate I think that they will find that although it is given in much greater detail than the first Estimate presented to the Dáil, it is impossible to get at the actual cost of the Army Medical Service.

I would like to know the average cost of the eleven senior officers on the list, one colonel at £1,400 a year, two majors at £1,000 a year each, and eight commandants at a total cost of £6,132. The other allowances that I referred to would, I presume, be covered by the sub-heads for lodging and subsistence allowances and transport of troops, but it is impossible for Deputies to get the actual cost of these particular officers from the total amount shown, and I would be greatly obliged if the Minister will give any figures he has, so that we may more fully appreciate what the actual cost is.

I would like a reply to my question with regard to the treatment of patients in Saint Bricin's Hospital. I have been informed that the medical and nursing attendance is not what it ought to be and that the food is of an inferior quality, badly cooked and badly served. I would like an assurance that that is not so.

I say here and now that it is impossible for the food in St. Bricin's Hospital to be bad. The meat is the best possible meat that can be purchased in the Dublin market. It does not come from an outside contractor; it is got from the abattoir and is killed and handled by our own men, so that in any barracks or hospital in Dublin the meat is of the very best quality. I know that it is very hard to please some people. And perhaps the gentleman who was there that Deputy Colohan speaks about is one of those gentlemen who would not be satisfied, no matter what he got, if it was got at the expense of the public.

I have had several complaints.

I have a list of the food here, and I say it is ample for any man. If any additional food is required, on the doctor's orders, it is given to the patients.

What about the nursing service? Is that all that it ought to be?

I think so—yes.

I would like the Minister to make inquiries, and if any fault is found either in the service or in the cooking, that he will have it put right. I suggest that that is only fair to the patients.

I would like, with reference to that matter, to remind the Minister that bad cooking can spoil good meat. The meat may be very good, but it may be handled in such a way that it may not be good. I know nothing about the merits of the case. I want emphatically to make it clear, with Deputy Sir James Craig, that I was not talking of any individual officer in the service. I was not talking of the administrative officer in St. Bricin's Hospital, I know nothing against that hospital, and I am sure the officer in command there does his duty. It is not for him to say what the hospital costs or does not cost. I want to disagree with Deputy Dr. Hennessy. I did not suggest any reduction in the pay of any doctor. But I must say this: that I think the arguments put forward against the suggestion I did not make were designed rather to satisfy the Deputy's own conscience than to convince me, because I did not attempt to parallel the two, the Director of our Army Medical Service and the Director-General of the British Army Medical Service. You must remember that the Director-General of the British Army Medical Service has reached the crown of his career, which has probably extended over thirty years, while our Army has only been in existence for four years. When you take all the experience——

This man has been practising for twenty years.

Not Army practice. He has not devoted his whole career to it.

Yes. I admit that.

I now come to the question of responsibility, which is an important point. The Director-General of the British Army Medical Service is responsible for the health of an army ten times the size of ours, an army stretching from Hong Kong to the West Indies, an army serving in every kind of climate, under different conditions. He has to study tropical diseases and diseases of every kind. I do not think that it can be denied that, no matter how heavy our Director's responsibility is, the British Director-General has far more responsibility. Then I take the case of a British major getting £2,000 on retirement after six years' service as major. That probably meant twenty years' service in all. When any of our Army doctors have twenty years' service I certainly agree that they should get something when they retire. Deputy Dr. Hennessy said that military hospitals should not be compared with civilian hospitals because civilian hospitals are run on a charitable basis. I suppose that meant that the doctors give their services to them free. Deputy Good and I would rejoice if the butcher, the milk-man and the baker would call at Sir Patrick Dun's Hospital and give us food as a matter of charity.

Only the doctor does that.

Yes. I put it to Deputy Dr. Hennessy that there is an item on the other side. Much of the cost of running a civilian hospital is due to treating different cases, cases of children or women, cases of the old and infirm. That forms a very serious item in civilian hospitals, while in army hospitals you are dealing with young men in the prime of life who have recently passed a medical examination, and all you have to do in that case is to endeavour to get the cost and the numbers down. I really was not hostile to Deputy Hennessy's profession, because the suggestion I made to the Minister was that instead of attempting to treat every case in every outpost detachment by a military doctor, he should employ a civilian doctor in cases where that is found to be more convenient. The Minister told us that a doctor attached to a battalion had plenty of work to do. If that battalion is split up into half a dozen detachments I am sure he has. But if that medical officer is attached to a battalion that is together, a battalion in Cork or in Athlone, to take two instances, and if he has only one battalion to look after, I do not believe that he has two hours' work in the day. He has a sick parade, and then he walks around just to see that things are in a satisfactory condition from a sanitary point of view. I do not see how he could have more, unless he made work for himself. If I was unfair to the Minister in taking the 1st April as the day for the number of patients in these hospitals, I regret it. I did not do so because anyone told me there were very few patients in them then, but because it was the beginning of a financial year. I sometimes think that the Minister forgets he is estimating for this year and not for the past year. He talks about twenty-seven battalions; he has only twenty, and yet he is still thinking of a medical service for twenty-seven.

I was making a comparison between the numbers.

Why should the Minister reduce the number of soldiers and not the number of doctors? I merely want to say that the 1st April was taken almost haphazard, and if the Minister thinks it unfair, I am not going to press it. But he makes an unfair comparison when he talks about a British division having sixty-one doctors. That is war strength. A British division in times of peace has probably not more than a dozen doctors. It has two administrative doctors, an assistant director of medical services, and a deputy assistant, and it has about one officer for every three battalions if they are stationed together. If they are stationed apart, probably an arrangement is made for treatment by a civilian doctor.

Not often.

Very frequently.

Mr. HENNESSY

Then it has been very frequent lately. It did not work.

The Deputy's knowledge is more recent than mine. It used to be frequently the case up to four or five years ago. I certainly knew British troops stationed all over the country here to be treated by civilian doctors.

I want to explain to Deputy Cooper—and I am sure he knows it—that every surgeon treating the troops in the country is a part-time man. He is not always there, and he generally makes a mess of the records. He is not helpful to discipline because, as Deputy Cooper knows, with a civilian doctor the soldier is always ready to blame him. He gives a good return and professionally he is all right, but in the matter of discipline and general management, fault was always found. I was in the position myself and I know what it is.

I am sorry to have resurrected such a painful episode in Deputy Hennessy's past. I admire the candour with which he has admitted it. I sometimes think that the Minister is a little over-impressed with the importance of records.

I find records most useful.

They are very useful, but there is a certain type of mind which people get into which thinks that if records are complete nothing else matters. That is disastrous to efficiency in the long run.

I want to stress again the fact that I did not wish to make any reduction in the salaries of the medical officers, and to say that I made no charge whatever against their efficiency. But the Minister has not quite satisfied me yet with regard to his numbers. He is estimating for an Army of 12,500. He says he will require twenty-four officers for battalions, ten for dental work and seven for pensions—I am not sure whether he said seven for hospitals——

Ten, I think.

Ten for the two. That was what I suggested and what brought the Minister to his feet to say that there were fewer than that. At all events, allowing ten for the headquarters, that only gives us fifty-four, and he estimates for seventy-one medical officers. I cannot for the life of me see how he can get over these figures. The other point I want to lay stress upon, although the Minister says it is not fair, is that the cost of the treatment of patients in these two hospitals was £50,000, while they would have been treated in a civilian hospital for £32,700. That is to say, it costs us over £17,000 above what a civilian hospital would cost, and if the only difference between the two is the payment to the doctors, this £17,000 represents the payments that are made to the medical officers. But there are only seven or eight of them. I do not think he has sufficient doctors attending the hospitals. If he put it up to me that only seven were doing so, I would say that he would certainly require at least ten men. But he has still got to account for £17,000.

I suppose everybody forgets that a doctor in the Army is an officer and that I have stated and given my word in the Dáil that I will not demobilise any officer. I said that over and over again. I will not demobilise doctors more than anyone else, but I do say that that problem will settle itself in the very near future. Less than two years ago I found myself in the position, on account of the pay and the work a medical officer had to do in the Army, that I had to go and ask two experienced officers who had resigned to rejoin the medical service, because medical men would not stop with us for the emoluments they were getting, and unless we are going to have what you might call the very scum of the profession in the Army——

Is there such a thing as a scum in this profession?

I want to finish the sentence—if there is such a thing. I do not think you would be justified. Deputy Cooper says that there are only two hours work for a medical officer in our Army. I say if the medical officer keeps his books and his records properly he has work to do. I find in my own Department that if the records are not there the Department would go down. These records are not kept in my Department. We have further in the Army at present a prophylactic system, and that entails two or three hours duty for a medical officer every night in the week after his ordinary working hours, from 9 to 11.30 p.m. These are duties that have to be performed as well, and when you think of all the duties that the doctors have to attend to, I do not see why I should have to stand up here to fight their case. I do say that as far as the doctors in the Army are concerned they are earning the money they get. I admitted a moment ago that we have perhaps one or two medical officers beyond what we require, but that position will rectify itself in the near future. Deputy Davin wanted to know what allowances the medical officers received. A doctor in the Army has no motor car. That is to say, he used his own car and he gets an allowance per month for that car. He has no military driver of any kind.

Do not some of these officers come under a different heading than the medical heading?

Oh, yes.

There are dental practitioners.

There are chemists, radiologists, bacteriologists, and so on.

There was a question raised by Deputy Sir James Craig in regard to a sum of £9,000 which is under Army pensions. The reply of the Minister was that that was a sum which came back under the appropriations in aid into the Army Funds. I have just been looking at the appropriations in aid and I cannot see any provision for any appropriations in aid showing that this amount will come back into the Army Fund.

It is under the heading ZZ in the Appropriation Account for 1924-25.

Is it in the Estimate for this year?

Are we to assume that it will come into this year?

Then the appropriation in aid account will be referred back and reintroduced, I suppose?

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 14; Níl, 31.

Tá.

  • Seán Buitléir.
  • Bryan R. Cooper.
  • Sir James Craig.
  • John Good.
  • David Hall.
  • William Hewat.
  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Tomás de Nógla.
  • William Norton.
  • Ailfrid O Broin.
  • Aodh O Cúlacháin.
  • Liam O Daimhín.
  • Eamon O Dubhghaill.
  • Domhnall O Muirgheasa.

Níl.

  • Earnán de Blaghd.
  • Séamus Breathnach.
  • Seoirse de Bhulbh.
  • Louis J. D'Alton.
  • Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
  • Uí Dhrisceóil.
  • Michael Egan.
  • Patrick J. Egan.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • Thomas Hennessy.
  • John Hennigan.
  • Liam Mac Cosgair.
  • Seán MacCurtain.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
  • Liam Mac Sioghaird.
  • Martin M. Nally.
  • Peadar O hAodha.
  • Mícheál O hAonghusa.
  • Seán O Bruadair.
  • Parthalán O Conchubhair.
  • Máirtín O Conalláin.
  • Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
  • Séamus O Dóláin.
  • Peadar O Dubhghaill.
  • Eamon O Dúgáin.
  • Aindriú O Láimhín.
  • Fionán O Loingsigh.
  • Risteárd O Maolchatha.
  • Máirtín O Rodaigh.
  • Seán O Súilleabháin.
  • Mícheál O Tighearnaigh.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Sir James Craig and J. Good. Níl: Deputies Dolan and Sears.
Motion declared lost.
Ordered that progress be reported.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Progress reported; the Committee to sit again on Wednesday, 12th May.
The Dáil adjourned at 4 o'clock until Wednesday, 12th May.
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