Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 May 1926

Vol. 15 No. 16

LOCAL AUTHORITIES (OFFICERS AND EMPLOYEES) BILL, 1926.—SECOND STAGE.

Mr. BURKE (Minister for Local Government and Public Health)

I move the Second Stage of the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Bill, 1926. This Bill goes a long way towards carrying into effect the ideal cherished by the founder of the Sinn Fein movement, our late President, namely, the establishment of a national service which should be recruited on the principle of merit alone. That principle has already been adopted so far as the Central Service is concerned, and those of us who have had some experience in administering Departments are aware of the fact that it has been very helpful. I believe if the Ministers of Departments at the present time had any large patronage at their disposal their position would be made almost intolerable. Even as it is, occasionally we have requests from people throughout the country who do not understand that we have divested ourselves of every shred of patronage, and from the embarrassments and annoyance caused by those few individuals we can readily understand how impossible our position could be made if all the patronage of our Departments rested in our hands. What holds good with regard to the Central Service probably is equally true of local services.

Charges of nepotism and corruption have occasionally been made against local authorities. We are, unfortunately, in the position where we are able to confirm those charges, and while I do not say that either corruption or nepotism is carried out on any great scale in appointments made by local authorities, at the present time, yet there is some foundation for the statement. But even if there were no foundation for such a statement, it is undoubtedly true that the best representatives of local authorities object very much to the continual canvassing that goes on with regard to appointments by local authorities, and they would be very glad, as we are glad, to be divested of all patronage with regard to those appointments.

This Bill, as I say, goes a considerable length in divesting local authorities of this patronage. It is a rather urgent matter for one reason, namely, one class of officer who will come under this Bill is the county medical officer of health. They will be very responsible officers, in fact, key men in the counties where they are appointed, as all the health services, both curative and preventative, will be under their control. The selection of those officers will be a very difficult matter, and I would not care to leave the responsibility of their selection solely to local authorities. Until this Bill is passed through the Dáil you will have no machinery for ensuring that the proper men are selected for these positions, and until these officers are selected there are various health services in the country that we are anxious to see established which cannot be established, as there is no machinery by which they can be provided. That is an urgent reason why this Bill should not be delayed in the Dáil.

It is not intended to bring all classes of officer or employees within the scope of this Bill. At the start it only applies to these county medical officers and to the chief executive officers of local authorities, and to officers who require various professional qualifications. The Bill can, afterwards, be applied by Order to other classes of officers. But until we have the machinery set up, until we see how the Act works, we do not consider it advisable to apply the Act too generally. Local authorities are still left a considerable amount of control in this matter. They may promote existing officers who are doing duties similar to those which they would be required to do in the offices in which the vacancies exist. They may, also, appoint pensioners who were previously performing similar duties under local authorities. The local authorities will be given two months within which they can make those promotions or appoint those pensioners with the consent of the Minister. If they do not make the appointments, it will be open to the Minister to request the Commissioners set up under this Bill to select or nominate either one or more persons to fill the vacancy. The qualifications as regards character, age, health and sex —sex where the Commissioners think it necessary—will be decided by the Commissioners, at the request of the Ministry. If there are other qualifications necessary, for instance, if it is necessary that the officers should be qualified medical practitioners, those qualifications shall also be prescribed by the Commissioners.

As a general rule candidates will be selected by open competitive examination, but it is obvious that cases will occasionally arise in which this system cannot be adhered to. That is probably true in the case of those county medical officers. Mere theoretical qualifications are of very little use when it comes to testing the qualities needed for responsible positions of this kind. A young and inexperienced student from one of the universities might do very much better in an examination than a highly qualified and experienced practitioner, who had become rather rusty on the usual subjects required in examination tests of this kind. Accordingly, some other system, probably a selection board, will be adopted by the Commissioners in those cases. If there happens to be an officer of a local authority whom the Minister considers would be a suitable candidate for the post, and he is not nominated by the local authority, it will be open to the Minister to recommend him to the Commissioners, and if they consider him a suitable person they can appoint him.

Section 12, which gives the Minister for Local Government certain control over officers appointed by local authorities, is already enforced under the Local Government (Temporary Provisions) Act. In that case these powers are only given by reference. It is considered advisable, in this Act, to give them direct. Section 13 gives the Minister power to suspend an officer. The same power is given to local authorities while any charge against him is being investigated. One of the difficulties I find in administration, at the present time, is that it is very hard to deal with an officer against whom there is any charge pending. It is a very drastic step to dismiss such an officer. Yet that is the only course open. Under this provision an officer can be suspended, say, if there is a charge of falsification of accounts or anything of that kind, or that it might be a danger to the finances of the authority to leave that officer in charge during any long period. It is very advisable that we should have power to suspend him while any charge against him is being investigated. If the charge proves to be without foundation he can be re-instated. If, on the other hand, the charge is substantiated he is deprived of any opportunity to do any further injury to the finances of the local authority while the investigation is going on. Provision is made for payment, first out of the Central Fund and afterwards through recoupment to that fund by the local authorities as in the case of the Combined Purchasing Bill.

I do not think there is anything further to say in this matter. While the original Local Government Bill was going through the Dáil and through the Seanad, there seemed to be almost unanimous approval for the principle of this Bill. Accordingly, I do not anticipate that it will meet with much opposition going through either House.

Mr. O'DOHERTY

I rise to support the Bill, and I do so for very definite reasons. There is scarcely, I suppose, any Deputy representing a country district who is not brought into very close contact with these things which the Bill deals with and who finds it humanly impossible, so far as he is concerned, to take any action or to take any decision upon it in his own mind whether the thing is right or wrong. The Minister has put up this Bill which I have gone very carefully into, and I have the greatest pleasure in supporting it from the point of view of Deputies from the country and, I think, in the interests of the State.

Mr. BAXTER

I think the Dáil will agree that this measure is revolutionary. While I say that, I am going to agree on the other hand that there is quite a good deal of good in it. I am not prepared to say, though, that, as the Bill stands, I believe it should be accepted by the Dáil and supported in every line. At this hour of the evening I will be as brief as I can. I will just quote two sections in it that really determine what is to be done under the Bill if it becomes an Act. Section 2 gives the Minister power to make every appointment that is to be made under any authority. The Minister points out that at the present stage the intention is to make the appointment of a Chief Executive Officer and the appointment of the County Medical Officer of Health, but the section also says "to fill such other offices and employments under a local authority as the Minister shall from time to time, with the concurrence of the Commissioners, declare to be offices to which this Act applies." That means every rate collector, every dispensary doctor——

Mr. JOHNSON

Every scavenger.

Mr. BAXTER

Every employee of a local authority can be appointed by the Minister. Section 6, of course, determines that the Minister and the Commissioners will finally determine the individual who is to fill any of these posts. We have to ask ourselves whether the conditions in the country in the matter of local administration are such at the present time as to demand that all authority and all power for the making of every appointment should be vested in the Minister, through the Civil Service Commission, and entirely taken out of the hands of the local authority. I am not in agreement with the Minister when he says that the best representatives on the local authorities would be anxious to be divested of the responsibility of making such appointments. I think the Minister will find that good, honest and capable representatives will take very strong exception to the Bill and to the Ministry or to the Dáil that will take from them every vestige of authority in determining what official is to carry out work under their supervision or their management in the future, in their counties. If the Dáil agrees to pass this measure and gives it its full support as it stands, undoubtedly on the part of many representatives here from the rural districts, it would be a vote of no confidence in the Councils and Boards of Health that have been recently elected.

Mr. O'DOHERTY

On a point of order, I think the Deputy is misrepresenting that section of the Bill.

Mr. JOHNSON

Not at all.

Mr. O'DOHERTY

The appointment does not rest with the Minister; it rests with the Civil Service Commissioners, who are appointed by the Dáil.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy is quite entitled to his opinion.

Mr. BAXTER

I want to be entirely fair in this discussion. I want to be put right if I am not interpreting the Bill properly.

Mr. O'DOHERTY

Why charge the Minister with this? It is the Civil Service Commission that will make the appointment.

Mr. BAXTER

If the Civil Service Commission makes an appointment to which the Minister gives sanction, the authority is taken from the local body.

Mr. O'DOHERTY

That is entirely wrong. I rise to a point of order again.

Mr. BAXTER

Deputy O'Doherty can take it any way he likes. I make the statement that if we pass this measure the Commission will make the appointment, to be sanctioned by the Minister.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

A recommendation.

Mr. BAXTER

A recommendation to be ratified by the Minister. The local authorities will not have one word or one voice in that. I suggest seriously that you will have many well-meaning representatives down the country saying that if they are not capable of playing any part whatever in the making of appointments under their respective bodies, they are not capable to sit or act or to take part in the administrative work of that body at all, and I think with a good deal of justification. It is difficult to see how local authorities are going to get loyal work from officials over whom, to a certain extent at least, they will have not much control, inasmuch as they are not responsible for making their appointments. It will take from their authority to some extent for the work of these offices, take from the authority of the local bodies, and I do not think it will make for efficiency. How is the Commission to make a recommendation in the case of every rate collector that is to be appointed and every doctor for a dispensary, where you get a young man or a young woman coming out with equal qualifications? It is going to be an extraordinarily difficult thing.

How the Commissioners could make a recommendation in regard to one candidate, who would be selected from a dozen possessing equal qualifications, is more than I can see. I think the Minister is asking for too much when he seeks authority to determine that all offices should come within the scope of this measure; by that I mean the filling of all offices under local authorities. It seems to me that the case the Minister refers to in connection with the appointment of a county medical officer of health is a case undoubtedly where men with a capacity to judge should be called upon to pass judgment on the ability of candidates who are to fill this very important post. Is it not possible that in the making of that important appointment you may have in every county two or three individuals with equal qualifications? Under such conditions, would it not be more advisable for the Minister to say that the Civil Service Commission would hold examinations, make recommendations, and these recommendations would be laid before the local authority in each case?

Mr. O'DOHERTY

No, certainly not.

Mr. BAXTER

Would it not be more advisable to lay the recommendations in their order of merit before the local authorities? The capacity of the individual to pass a qualifying examination up to a certain standard that would be determined by the Commission would then be apparent. I feel that, however difficult an examination may be, you will have in the case of every appointment more than one applicant qualifying. It seems to me that from the point of view of efficiency in local administration, from the point of view of justice to the local authority, and from the point of view of ensuring that the local authority would have a real interest in its work and would have some responsibility for the making of the appointment, it would be more advisable if the names of two or three of the successful candidates were submitted to the local authority with indications of how they fared at the examination, and it would then be the duty of the local authority to make a selection. It would be their duty to appoint one of the candidates who had qualified. The final sanction to the appointment would then come from the Minister. Under such circumstances the Minister would secure what he seeks under the Bill and he would not take away the power to appoint from the local authority. He would give them an interest in local administration and they would feel they had some share of responsibility in seeing that local officers do their work.

If the Minister desires members of county councils, boards of health and other local bodies to have a proper appreciation of the responsibilities of their position—I observe that Deputy O'Doherty shakes his head at that—he must show he has some trust in them. If you do not want to create more suspicion and lay yourselves open to further charges such as are being suggested—not with very much foundation—to the effect that a central authority will make all appointments and that powers are to be taken from the local authorities, you will adopt some such course as I suggest. Suggestions are made that the Government are moving towards this idea of centralisation. It is suggested there is an attempt to create a spirit in the country whereby every responsible citizen will feel that his position as a member of a public board is of such a character that it is scarcely advisable for him to attend meetings because of the distrust and suspicion existing in regard to every man—distrust of his ability honestly to discharge his duty. Responsible citizens will feel that by attending meetings they only become tainted.

If the Minister wants to inculcate the spirit in the country that we all desire to see, he must put men in the position of feeling they have responsibilities. The Minister must not take from local authorities every vestige of power they have enjoyed up to the present. I agree that in some places they did find enjoyment in this power, and perhaps a little profit, too. These cases, I hold, are very few. After all, the work of our local bodies has been such up to the present that, while there were grounds for complaint in the past, we have no guarantee that the methods the Minister seeks to employ to change things are going to give us such perfection in future as will satisfy us that it is the right course to adopt and that we should support him wholly and entirely.

I believe appointments should be made after open competition. The best possible individuals should be selected to fill every post that becomes vacant. In the making of these appointments everything should be fair and above board, and it is the Minister's duty to do whatever he thinks necessary to secure that. I suggest that the Minister should not act unwisely by rushing too far, and I believe he is asking under this measure for more than the Dáil would be wise in conceding. Beyond question, very violent opposition will be taken to this by every local authority in existence in the country. I feel the measure indicates want of confidence in local authorities that were brought into existence at the last election. While I am prepared to support the underlying principle, I am not prepared to support the measure as it stands, and unless the Minister agrees that what I have pointed out will be open to consideration, I cannot see my way to vote for it.

Mr. JOHNSON

The Deputy who has just sat down says he is prepared to support the principle underlying the Bill. I would like the House to understand that the principle underlying this Bill is not the establishment of a municipal civil service.

Mr. O'DOHERTY

Indeed it is.

Mr. JOHNSON

The underlying principle is not the establishment of security against local patronage and nepotism. It is not doing what the Minister set out as his intention. It is removing responsibility from local authorities; it is removing from local authorities the temptation of nepotism, patronage for unworthy motives, and so on, but it is concentrating all that in the Ministry. Is that an improvement?

Mr. BURKE

Not in the Minister.

Mr. JOHNSON

In the Ministry. The Minister for Local Government, in the main, but occasionally in some respects, in the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Education.

Mr. BURKE

What about the Civil Service Commission?

Mr. JOHNSON

If the Minister will wait I will show him that the power is in the hands of the Minister, and these powers of patronage and possible nepotism we are asked to place in the hands of the Minister are concentrated in the Department.

Mr. O'DOHERTY

Which Department?

Mr. JOHNSON

The Department which makes the appointment.

Mr. O'DOHERTY

The Civil Service Commission?

Mr. JOHNSON

Not the Civil Service Commission; not even the Local Appointment Commissioners referred to in the Bill. For fear of misapprehension let us make it clear that there is no reference to the Civil Service Commissioners in this Bill. There are the Local Appointment Commissioners to be appointed. There is no security, in the Bill, that these Local Appointment Commissioners will be independent of Ministers; that they will be an independent body at all or that they will have an independent Chairman.

Mr. BURKE

The Minister has not the appointing of them. The appointment of the Commissioners is not by the Minister but by the Executive Council.

Mr. JOHNSON

Quite true. The Executive Council appoints the Commissioners, who may be civil servants. The Executive Council appoints the Commissioners who are to act from time to time, and they may be officials of the Department. Possibly and likely one of them would be an official of the Department of Local Government, and possibly one of them would be an official of the Department of Agriculture, and they will recommend the appointment of local officers dealing with matters under the supervision of those particular Departments. But it is the Ministry concerned that will have the appointment. Let us bear that in mind. Under Section 10 it will be possible—I say possible, I am not suggesting the Minister is capable of it—for the Minister to secure the appointment to any office of any reasonably qualified person, at present in local service, or on pension from a local service, otherwise than by way of promotion, and this, without any consideration of any other candidate whatsoever. There is not even the shadow of a promise of the establishment of a municipal Civil Service in this Bill.

If we were proposing to establish a municipal Civil Service we would have competitive examinations for people to enter into grades or classes from which there would be appointments, and through which there would be promotions. That is not suggested in the Bill. Every appointment is to be the subject of a separate examination. The Minister will indicate the appointments and the qualifications, and may recommend that a particular person shall be considered by the Commissioners, and having the qualifications before them that are required by the Minister, and having the particular person named by the Minister, the Commissioners will be able to say whether or not this person recommended fits in with the qualifications, and will indicate to the Minister whether the person would suit the qualifications and then the Minister makes his appointment. If that is not patronage, if that does not open the way to nepotism, I do not know what the meaning of the word is. You must bear that in mind in relation to Section 2, which as Deputy Baxter pointed out, leaves it within the power of the Minister to determine what offices, from the highest to the lowest employee of the local authority, shall come within the provisions of this method of appointment. Every office, under any local authority in the country, under this Bill, can have appointments made to it by the Minister, provided that the Local Appointment Commissioners do not turn down absolutely that person as unfit.

Mr. O'DOHERTY

A good thing.

Mr. JOHNSON

If it is the desire of Deputies that this kind of concentrated bureaucracy shall be introduced and maintained, then it is their business to vote for this Bill. I wonder why the Minister does not come forward frankly and say that he desires all local administrative bodies should be abolished——

Mr. CORISH

That is what they are aiming at.

Mr. JOHNSON

—and that no longer can the administration of this country be carried on by elected authorities. If the Minister would come forward and say that he would be saying what appears to be in his mind and the Dáil would know where it is being steadily led to. We have had a succession of measures all tending in the same direction, but this is the climax. Because here he says the central authority— authority over the municipal administration of the country—shall determine not merely what is to be done, but it shall see that it is done and, in fact, all responsibility is taken away from the local authority.

Now, I want to make quite clear that we are in favour of ensuring that candidates for any office shall be qualified for their posts, and we desire, in every possible way, to prevent any kind of canvassing or pressure, from one side or another, upon local representatives.

Mr. BAXTER

Either Deputies or anybody else.

Mr. JOHNSON

I have it to say I never had occasion to be canvassed, and I never made any recommendation for any office, either major or minor. The suggestion of Deputy Baxter that professional appointments would have to be by competitive examination, is a suggestion that I think is not practicable. I think that the method of examining qualifications and forming a panel of qualified persons for classes of appointments is quite satisfactory, and from that panel recommendations could be made by a body such as these Local Appointment Commissioners or Civil Service Committee, or whatever body may be set up. But I think that that Commission should not make a recommendation to the Minister.

If there are three men selected, as Deputy Baxter has suggested, from qualified men as suitable for a particular appointment, that recommendation should go to the local authority, and the local authority should be given some responsibility in the making of the appointment. I say that the plan of the Bill does not even promise to set up a municipal Civil Service. The alteration that it makes in the present system is a transfer of patronage—but I will leave out that word—and I will say transfer of the power of appointment to any individual office, from the local authority to the Minister acting on the advice of the Commissioners, such advice to be possibly so manoeuvred as to retain the power in the hands of the Minister.

Now that is not the establishment of a municipal Civil Service by any means. And first I want to emphasise this: that every appointment is to be the subject of a separate examination. I wonder does anybody think of that as appertaining at all to a municipal Civil Service? Every promotion, or promotion from one office under one authority to the same office under another authority, is liable to be treated in the same manner. We are not creating a Civil Service from which there will be appointments and promotions and the ensuring of an urge towards efficiency because of the possibilities of that promotion, and all the promises of the Minister regarding the establishment of a Civil Service for municipal affairs are entirely baseless. But there is this further fault in the Bill. While Section 8 provides for competitive examination as a means of selection for each particular post—not for so many vacancies —there are so many possibilities of exceptions under Section 9 as to make the assurance of a competitive examination very small indeed.

Of course we shall be told that what is in the Minister's mind in this matter is that the only exceptions he proposes to make are for those professional appointments for which competitive examinations are not satisfactory. That is to say, the qualifications needed by a professional man in the beginning shall be deemed to be sufficient to place him upon the panel apart from his experience in the particular work for which he is required. But under Section 9 the Minister may make all kinds of exceptions. There is really no assurance that the system of competitive examination shall be maintained for all minor offices apart from professional offices. There is no assurance of that whatever. Then again we have under Section 12 (1):

The Minister shall have power with respect to all persons now employed or hereafter to be employed by any local authority in any office to which this Act applies to define and prescribe the duties of such persons and the places or limits within which these duties are to be performed, and to determine the continuance of such persons in or the removal of such persons from their offices, and to regulate from time to time the remuneration payable to such officers and the mode of payment thereof.

"All persons now employed or hereafter to be employed." I think that it is that section that the Minister indicated when he said by reference that the power is at present in his hands. We have explicit here what was secured by reference in an Act having regard to particular circumstances. It is now made clear to the Dáil and to the country that the Minister can determine the retention of office, the pay for the office, and the duties of every municipal employee. It is an extraordinary power to leave in the hands of the Minister and to extend.

Why does not the Minister come forward frankly and tell us what is in his mind is that all local authorities should be abolished, and that these bodies should be run by a Commissioner appointed by him? Let us note the final proposal of this Bill. All the appointments are to be made by the Minister. In respect to every appointment there is to be a special examination, and whatever deficit there may be as between the cost of the examination and the fees obtained is to be charged upon the local authority. Local authorities are deprived of all responsibility and all powers. The Minister makes regulations regarding the fees, regarding the examination, the qualifications for the office, the mode of examination, the conduct of the examination and everything connected with it. He may make a profit if he can. I do not know what becomes of the profit. I do not know whether that is intended to be divided between the local authorities——

Mr. WILSON

It goes to the Exchequer.

Mr. JOHNSON

But in the alternative, the almost certain loss is to be paid pro rata by the local authorities.

Mr. J. CONLAN

Their sole function?

Mr. JOHNSON

I think the Minister is moving very rapidly in the direction of making membership of a local authority so mean and petty an office as only to attract the meanest and the pettiest minds in the country. Local authorities are going to be so hedged round by regulations, so much deprived of responsible authority, that only the poorest types in the country will consent to act upon those authorities. If the Minister thinks that that is going to improve local administration, I think he is making a very grave mistake. It would be better for him frankly to tell the Dáil that he is desirous of wiping out the local elected authorities. The Bill, to my mind, is going, if it is passed, to make much more difficult the establishment of a real municipal civil service, is going to make more difficult the attracting to local administrative work the types of people we would hope through the municipal civil service to have placed in that service. I hope the Dáil will, even if it passes the Second Reading, make such radical amendments to the Bill as would make it unrecognisable by its parent.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

It is quite evident from the remarks that have fallen from the Farmers' Benches and from the Labour Benches that this Bill is not going to have a very easy passage through the Dáil.

Mr. BAXTER

Nor through the country.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I admit that I think changes will be necessary in the Bill, but I am prepared to accept it for whatever good is in it. During the passage of the Local Government Bill I stated that if the appointments of these new county medical officers of health were to be appointments of incompetent men which would simply put increased payments on local authorities, I would prefer to tear the Bill up and trample it under my feet. In other words, unless we were going to get real, good, energetic, conscientious, capable, well-educated men to fill those posts I think the Bill would better not be passed. That, at all events, was my opinion and I still adhere to it. If this Bill is going to give us an opportunity of having thoroughly good men appointed to these posts, then I will support it in the heartiest manner.

I have, perhaps, as great knowledge of competitive examinations as anyone in the Dáil, and I say quite frankly that competitive examinations are not always the be-all and the end-all in getting the best men. That is clear to everyone, but, on the other hand, I would not leave it to the local authority to be the judge as to the capacity, training and qualification of professional men, which qualifications they themselves know nothing of. If you would put on me the selection of a farmer to do certain work I would consider that I would be out of place altogether. I would not be able to tell you whether a farmer was good or whether he was a bad farmer, nor could I tell with regard to most matters in connection with a labourer's work. Therefore I hold that a lay body is not competent to judge the qualifications possessed by a medical man who is up for one of those important posts, and wherever this Bill can be shown to give us for particular posts the men best qualified for them, then I will support it.

I admit that Deputy Baxter's case is a good one, that there are certain appointments that should be made by local authorities. I admit that. But the Minister perhaps overstepped the mark a little when he suggested that he was divesting himself of all patronage, when, as Deputy Johnson has pointed out, under Clause 10 he is still keeping a considerable amount of patronage. Deputy Baxter has also been frank in saying that they want the best men appointed. They want perfection. But there is no perfection. At all events, if there is no perfection going, still, we should make an attempt to frame our regulations so that we should get the best men. Deputy Johnson has pointed out that there must be considerable trouble in holding a special examination for each special case.

Mr. BLYTHE

That is not in this Bill.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Deputy Johnson has made a statement that there would have to be a special examination for every special case.

Mr. BLYTHE

He is wrong.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

He may be wrong, but that is the statement which he has made. Here is a statement which I am unable to translate. It reads:

Whenever the Minister requests the Commissioners to recommend a person for appointment to an office to which this Act applies and the Commissioners with the concurrence of the Minister are of opinion that, having regard to the nature of the duties of that office, the knowledge and experience necessary for the efficient performance of those duties, and the qualifications prescribed under this Act for that office, the person or persons to be recommended for appointment to that office cannot be satisfactorily selected by competitive examination, the Commissioners may dispense with the competitive examination required by this Act and may select the person or persons to be recommended by them to the Minister by such means and in such manner as they think proper.

Now I think I have a very fair knowledge of the English language, but I cannot find any meaning in that. It is quite possible that the Minister might by giving a case illustrate what was in the mind of the person who drafted that section. But what that was I do not think any man reading it over would make out.

Mr. WILSON

Not even the farmers.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Even the farmers, with all their ability, could scarcely analyse this sentence. Now again I repeat that the most insistent matter to be dealt with at the present moment is the appointment of these county medical officers of health, because their non-appointment is holding up the sanitation of the country. One of the first speeches I made in the Dáil was in reference to the woeful sanitary condition of the country. I merely wish to say that I hope the Bill will be amended if amendments can be moved that will improve it. On the other hand, I am anxious to support the Bill in every direction which seems to make for the appointment of the best men that can be got.

Debate adjourned.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m.