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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 11

HOUSING BILL, 1926—SECOND STAGE.

I move the Second Reading of the Housing Bill. In doing so I shall have to draw somewhat on the patience of the House in order to pourtray very fully the details of our housing activities since 1922. Under the grant of one million pounds, made available for urban housing in 1922, some 2,100 houses have been erected. The grants were available only to municipal authorities carrying out housing schemes under the Housing of the Working Classes (Ireland) Acts. The building costs of these houses averaged about £600 per house, while the average all-in cost was approximately £705. The amount of the grant given under that scheme was two-thirds of the actual all-in cost of providing the houses, subject to a maximum of £750 per house.

Under the Housing (Building Facilities) Acts, 1924, grants of between £50 and £100 per house were made available from State funds to private persons and to local authorities crecting or reconstructing houses. In the case of reconstructed houses, slightly smaller sums were available. Private persons constructed 2,747 houses, the grants in these cases absorbing £227,503 8s. 8d. The local authorities constructed 965 houses, the grants allocated amounting to £72,496 6s. 8d. The total was 3,712 houses, and the cost was 4/8 short of £300,000. Of that total of 3,712 houses 3,322 are new houses and 390 are reconstructed houses, the allocated grants being £282,333 16s. 8d. in the case of the new houses and £17,665 18s. 8d. in the case of reconstructed houses.

Under the Housing Act, 1925, a further £300,000 was made available for grants to private persons, public utility societies and local authorities. The grants under the 1925 Act ranged between £45 and £75 per house, and in the case of reconstructed houses between £30 and £50, for private persons. For public utility societies and local authorities the grants were the same as under the 1924 Acts. In the case of the 1925 Act, there were 2,655 houses constructed by private persons, and the amount was £180,371 8s. Public utility societies constructed 90 houses, and the grants amounted to £7,540. Local authorities constructed 840 houses, the grants absorbing £72,720 6s. 8d. The total then is 3,585 houses and grants £260,631 14s. 8d., leaving an unallocated balance of £39,368 5s. 4d., which is scarcely adequate for the further schemes being formulated by local authorities together with the proposals from private persons at present under consideration.

In what areas—rural or urban?

Both. Of the total of 3,585 houses built under the 1925 Act, 3,456 are new houses and 129 are reconstructed houses, the allocated grants being £255,417 6s. 8d. and £5,214 8s. 0d. respectively. It will be observed grants have been allocated to date under both Acts in respect of 7,297 houses; that is exclusive of the million grant. These are apportioned as follows amongst counties, county boroughs, urban districts and towns with town commissioners:—counties, under the 1924 Act, 2,117 houses; under the 1925 Act, 2,080 houses; total, 4,197 houses; county boroughs: under the 1924 Act, 1,169 houses; under the 1925 Act, 1,101 houses; total, 2,270 houses. Urban districts: under the 1924 Act, 357 houses; under the 1925 Act, 340 houses; total, 697 houses. Towns with town commissioners: under the 1924 Act, 69 houses; under the 1925 Act, 64 houses; total, 133 houses. It is not possible to obtain much information in regard to building costs of houses provided by private persons. From the information available the average cost of building would appear to be £450 per house.

For what class of house—what accommodation?

The ordinary house which is provided for under the Act—a house ranging from three rooms to five rooms. The floor area is, I think, laid down under the 1925 Act.

It would be 1,250 square feet.

Yes. This average is brought so low by reason of the fact that in some rural areas private persons have found it possible by applying personal labour to the work to build good roomy houses at prices ranging between £250 and £300. An additional reason for the cheapness of building in rural areas is the easy accessibility of material such as sand and stone. In regard to local authorities, under the schemes of the City Commissioners the building cost of five-roomed houses in Dublin during the past twelve months averaged between £500 and £535, while in the smaller municipal areas houses of similar accommodation have been built for £450 to £500. A considerable reduction in building costs to some local authorities has been effected by the use of plans of a modified form of construction prepared by the architectural staff of the Housing Department. These houses are being built with 7-inch reinforced concrete walls for single storey houses and 8-inch walls for two-storey houses, with asbestos slate roofs and three-inch partitions. The plans also show a slight variation in the size of some of the rooms.

The houses contain a living room and three bedrooms. The single storey house has a scullery. The two-storey house has a very large living room which provides ample culinary space. The floor areas of the rooms compare as follows with the floor areas hitherto regarded as the minima for municipal areas. The original minima were: Living-room, 180 sq. feet; first bedroom, 160; second bedroom, 85, and third bedroom 60 sq. feet. The floor areas of the single storey modified plan are:—Living room, 161 sq. feet; first bedroom, 121; second bedroom, 90, and third bedroom, 72 sq. feet. The floor areas of the two-storey modified plan are:—Living room, 265 sq. feet; first bedroom, 125; second bedroom, 88, and third bedroom, 70 sq. feet.

In Drogheda and Ardee schemes for the erection of these houses have just been completed. Other local bodies have similar houses in progress. The building prices for the single storey plan range between £230 and £310, while a few days ago in a Northern urban district a tender was received for the two-storey house at £280.

How many rooms in that house?

Four. These reductions in building costs will justify the modifications effected. Houses of this type can be let at very reasonable rents without any charge on the rates. Statistics put the success of the recent Housing Acts beyond question. The principal feature is the inducement of private persons into the field of house production. There has been a total provision of over 7,000 houses at the cost to the State of £600,000. Compare this with the £1,000,000 scheme where a whole million of money went to subsidise the provision by local authorities of 2,100 houses. This comparison is, of course, made to show how absolutely essential is the co-operation of private enterprise in the solution of the housing problem and is not intended as an adverse criticism of the £1,000,000 scheme. There is no doubt whatever that under the conditions which then existed the generous terms of the £1,000,000 scheme were quite essential to enable local authorities to undertake house-building, and it is doubtful that private persons could be induced at all to enter on what was then regarded as a precarious and risky enterprise.

The Housing Acts have achieved their objects. The private individual has been enabled to supply his own housing needs and local authorities have been enabled to undertake building schemes. All that is now required is to sustain the present activity until the housing problem is well on the way towards solution.

The house-building activity brought about by the Housing Acts is general to the entire Saorstát. In Mayo County 450 houses have been provided or are in progress, in Cork 440, in Galway 415, in Kerry 320, in Tirconaill 285, in Cavan 215, in Limerick 290, in Clare 200, in Roscommon 190, in Sligo 215, in Meath 130, in Leitrim 160, and in Monaghan 120. There is no county in the whole State in which the benefits of the Acts have not been availed of.

The progress made in Dublin (City and County) since 1923 is worthy of note. Under the £1,000,000 housing scheme 947 houses were built in the city. Under the Acts of 1924-25 the Commissioners have completed or have in progress schemes for an additional 1,361 houses, and private persons have built some 600 houses in the city area. By other local bodies in Dublin County some 350 houses have been built under the £1,000,000 housing scheme and 150 under the Labourers (Ireland) Acts, while under the Housing Acts, 1924-1925, schemes have been prepared by local bodies for 20 houses, and 500 houses have been built by private persons, making a total of 3,928 provided in Dublin (City and County) since 1922.

Notwithstanding this, there is no lull in activity. The Borough Commissioners have prepared a new scheme for the erection of a large number of additional houses on an extensive virgin site at Drumcondra. The majority of these houses will be three and four-roomed and will be capable of being let at reasonable rents. The Commissioners also expect to begin work at an early date on a scheme for the provision of dwellings to be let in flats on a central city area (Crabbe Lane). There are also signs of additional activity on the part of speculative builders in the city.

What is a reasonable rent? Twice the President used that phrase, and I would like to have an idea what is in his mind.

I would be glad if the Deputy puts that question later on. I have not made any calculations as to what the exact amount is. Compared with what you would call an economic rent it bears a very reasonable proportion.

The ability to pay must be considered. I think the President has something else in mind and the use of the term "reasonable rent" prompted my question.

It would be a reasonable rent, I should say, particularly when one bears in mind what rents are at present chargeable in respect to houses in which more than one family is housed. Now, in regard to the special provisions made in the 1925 Act for public utility societies, it may be mentioned that the actual progress made by these groups did not come up to expectation. This, however, is largely due to the delay which must necessarily arise in creating general interest in this form of house production and, as a lot of the preliminary spade work has now been got through, there is no reason why much greater activity should not result if the new Bill is passed into law. In fact, it is understood that numbers of these societies have now been formed and registered and are ready to begin work. There was a disappointment in connection with the 1925 Act. Trade unions, to include which bodies in the definition of "Public Utility Society" the Bill was specially amended in the Dáil at the request of Deputy Johnson, were not active. Very little work has been done in that connection, but there is a hope that something may be done in the future.

Another interesting feature of the Acts is the amount of money which has been set in circulation and the consequent stimulus to industry and relief to unemployment. Taking the average building cost per house at £450, the 7,297 houses represent an expenditure of £3,283,650, of which £600,000 was provided by the State.

I have particulars of the schemes made by local authorities for supplementary assistance to private persons under the Acts. From these it appears that under the 1924 Acts supplementary grants and loans were given by two county borough councils and two county councils, supplementary grants (without loans) were given by one county council and three urban district councils, and loans (without grants) were given by one county borough council, twelve county councils and ten urban district councils. Under the 1925 Act grants and loans were given by one county borough council and one urban district council. One county borough council, two county councils and two urban district councils gave grants without loans, and one county borough council, eight county councils and eight urban district councils gave loans without grants.

It will be noted that town commissioners of small municipal towns offered no local assistance. Financial weakness was generally the cause of this, and under the 1925 Act provision was made empowering county councils to extend their local assistance schemes to such towns. Generally, local authorities proved themselves anxious and willing to co-operate in making a success of the Acts, and wherever their financial position was sufficiently strong to enable them to afford facility to private persons, good work resulted. In this connection the Irish banks came to the assistance of many local bodies with short term loans, a total sum of £100,000 being made available by them for the purpose. The enormous advantage to private persons of the local assistance provisions of the Acts need scarcely be stressed.

Supplementary cash grants afford a considerable additional inducement to private persons with small capital to build houses, while the supplementary loans have been necessary in many cases to enable building. The activity which resulted in areas where generous local assistance was given was an evidence of this fact. Worthy of note are the cases of Dublin and Waterford cities, where supplementary grants and loans were made available. The houses built by private persons in these areas, in addition to the houses built under the Acts by the local authorities themselves, have given a great relief to the housing demands. The demand for houses is still far from satisfied, notwithstanding the great activity of the past few years, and, unless the present stimulus is sustained, the housing problem will rapidly disimprove. In fact, even if the continuity of the scheme is broken, much greater effort will be required to put house production by private enterprise again under weigh. A stoppage of the subsidy would also mean a considerable hardship to a great number of people who have incurred heavy commitments in anticipation of grants, but who have been delayed in proceeding with actual building work owing to divers circumstances.

The Housing Bill, 1926, proposes, therefore, that the present system of State and local aid under the Housing Act, 1925, be continued without alteration for a further normal period of two years from October next, and that a further sum of £300,000 be made available for State grants. As stated last year when the 1925 Bill was being considered, the extent of the housing problem renders it impossible of immediate solution, because of the high cost of building and the undesirability at this stage of taxing the State with the provision of funds to enable, by way of subsidies and other facilities, house production on a scale sufficiently large to meet the enormous needs prevailing.

Pending more stabilised conditions, some alleviation must be effected in the direction of housing the people, and the system of State aid and other assistance established under the Building Facilities Acts, whereby a small amount is made available for utilisation within a limited period, appears to be the most desirable in present circumstances. These Acts must not be regarded as having provided an adequate and final settlement of the housing question, but rather as part of a series of temporary measures the periodical introduction of which will ensure continuity of house production over a number of years, until eventually the demand is fully met. Legislation of this nature possesses a decided advantage over permanent codes, as it enables the frequent review of the system and its revision, when such is necessitated by altered conditions. Furthermore, no strain of national resources is involved.

As regards the amounts of the grants, it is considered that these, having regard to the cost of building, will not bear any further reduction during the period proposed. It is not proposed to alter in any way the general lines of the Act of 1925, as the minds of the people are now educated to the system, and alterations would only tend to confusion and consequent delay of progress. Experience has shown that the maximum period of twenty-two months, provided in the 1925 Act for the completion of houses by private persons, is inadequate. In town areas considerable delay occurs in the preliminary work of obtaining suitable sites, settling plans, etc., while in country areas, where the intending resident ofttimes does most of the building work himself, he has to suspend operations during certain periods of the year to attend to his farming work. This was also the experience under the 1924 Act, and it will be remembered that the period had to be extended for a further four months under an amending Act. For this reason it is proposed to make the 1925 Act period continuous from the date of its passing to the end of the extended period.

Practically the only reason why the reconstruction clauses are continued is to allow to proceed the work of conversion of barracks, workhouses and such buildings into suitable dwellings. Another, and perhaps a stronger, reason for the reconstruction clauses is the possibilities opened up in the conversion into dwellings of derelict barracks, workhouses and such buildings throughout the country. Many of these premises are no longer required for their original purpose, and there does not appear to be any purpose, other than housing, to which they can be devoted. These premises are mostly situated in town areas, and their reconstruction will be undertaken by local authorities. In fact, in a number of districts very good and healthy dwellings have been made out of these premises, i.e., Dublin, where Kehoe Barracks have been converted into 202 flats; Clonmel, where the barracks have been converted into 44 dwellings; Droichead Nua, where 28 good houses have been made in the barracks, and Tipperary, where the barracks have been converted into 36 flats. In other districts similar schemes are under consideration.

A number of local authorities, with a view to providing funds for additional housing schemes, have sold to intending resident purchasers houses already provided in their districts under the Housing of the Working Classes (Ireland) Acts. These sales have taken two forms. The first, a sale for ready cash and, the second, a sale on the tenant-purchase, or instalment, system. The latter system provides for the payment of the purchase money in weekly instalments over a period of years and in some cases a small cash deposit is required. To the weekly payment is added a small sum to cover such additional charges as fire insurance and administration charges. The sale scheme of the Dublin Borough Commissioners is a good instance of the instalment plan. The houses have been sold on the tenant purchase system with a maximum of forty years, the purchasers paying from 15/- to 16/6 weekly to cover purchase money, rates, insurance and all other charges. The Waterford Corporation sold 20 houses, the tenant-purchasers paying small cash deposits and the balance of the purchase money in instalments over a period of fifteen years. In Ardee the Town Commissioners sold 6 houses, one for cash and the remaining five on the tenant purchase system; Athlone Urban District Council sold 12 houses with a deposit of £100 and the balance of the purchase money payable in ten years and 2 with deposits of £250; An Uaimh Urban District Council sold 4 houses for cash, 3 at £470 and one at £460; Galway Urban Council sold 20 houses at £500 each, £400 paid in cash and £100 in two instalments; Howth Urban Council sold 12 houses at an average price of £500 cash; Killarney Urban Council sold 8 houses at an average cost of £520; Kilrush Urban Council sold 2 houses at £350 cash; Tralee Urban Council sold 16 houses at £500 each. Other local authorities who sold houses are the Urban District Councils of Ballina, Blackrock, Bri Chulainn, Carrickmacross, Clones, Clonmel, Cobh, Drogheda, Dundalk, Dungarvan, Ennis, Kilkenny, Macroom, Pembroke, Thurles, Tralee and Wexford.

It is unnecessary to comment on the beneficial extent of these purchase schemes, or on the extent to which they develop civic spirit and enterprise. In conclusion, in addition to that series of housing activities, the Land Commission, where they consider it necessary, erect new, or reconstruct existing, buildings in connection with the sale of holdings and the division of untenanted land into new holdings or enlargements of existing holdings. Since December, 1921, the Land Commission have sanctioned a sum of £368,000 on the erection or reconstruction of buildings in 2,450 cases. It is not possible without a detailed investigation of the figures to segregate the number of new buildings erected from the number reconstructed.

I wish. I think for the first time in this House, to congratulate the President and the Government on extending the Housing Act, as that extension will, in my opinion, be of the utmost help to people throughout the country. The President mentioned a sum of £300,000, but in Section 2 it is said that a sum not exceeding £600,000 may be given. I would like to know whether it would be possible to include in this Bill the reconstruction of houses in rural districts? As the President is aware, it is absolutely essential to try and help the small farmers and labourers, who may be in a position to improve their houses, and it would be of great benefit if such facilities were given in this measure as are given in the cases of towns of five hundred population.

I have nothing to say against the previous Acts nor against the present measure, but I would like to point out that there is a large number of people living in towns who are anxious to erect houses for themselves but who, unfortunately, have not sufficient money to enable them to start the building of a house without the grant. It is provided that the house must be roofed before half the grant can be given, and that the remainder is given when the house is finished. I may, perhaps, be asking too much, and there is an old saying: "Do not spur a willing horse." In this case, undoubtedly, the Government is a willing horse. I would, however, like to know whether it is possible to help workers in the towns by giving loans in order to enable them to start the erection of a house and then give them the grant when the house was finished. Several people come to me in regard to the construction or reconstruction of houses. It will be noticed that the President did not mention the number of houses erected or reconstructed in Westmeath and Longford. The reason is that the people there have not taken advantage of the Act, as in their opinion there is too much delay in getting the grant.

In some cases in which the houses were completed even six months ago the people have not yet received the grant. It would take a barrister to fill in properly the forms which the applicant gets when he applies for a grant. These forms should be made easier so that the ordinary man in the street can understand them. When the applicant sends in the form he is generally told, after three or four weeks, that an inspector will visit him. After some time an inspector comes down and visits the site. If the site is approved, the work is duly started, but the applicant will have to wait for anything between six to ten months before he gets the grant. That is a great hardship. Some people, who have not spare money to invest in a house, borrow it from a bank so as to start building but, perhaps, before they receive the Government grant the bank may serve them with a writ to recover their money. There is certainly delay in giving the grant, and I would like, if possible, that in the coming year no unnecessary delay would take place in giving grants, especially in cases where the plans have been approved and where people are about to build.

In Athlone they built thirteen houses and I am very happy to say that the suggestion of the Urban Council to sell the houses was approved by the Minister for Local Government. They sold the houses, and with the money they received they were in a position to build twelve more houses. Were it not that the grant was given the first thirteen houses would not have been built. I think it is the duty of Deputies—I have done my part—to let their constituents know exactly how they are to apply and where they are to apply for the grant. It has been said that a fairly large number of people are accustomed to the Act, but I say a very large number of people know nothing at all about it and it is absolutely essential that the Deputies representing the various constituencies should be in a position to let their people know exactly the amount they are entitled to and where they should apply for it.

I certainly would like the President to include, for the purpose of the reconstruction grant, houses outside towns of 500 population. A very large number of those houses are not fit at the present time for human habitation, and with the help of a little grant these people would be in a position to make their houses fit for themselves and their families to live in. I know houses— and other Deputies who visit their constituents can bear me out—in remote parts of the country that are not fit for beasts, let alone human beings. Yet the owners of these houses are denied the right to reconstruction grants. Every year since I became a member of this House I have asked the President to extend the provisions of the Act to them. It may cost £50,000, but £50,000 would be well spent on this work.

At present many people are still living in houses with old thatched roofs that have practically fallen down, and some of them in houses with corrugated iron roofs. The result is that when it rains at night the children are kept awake and they cannot go to school next day. I suggest that the President give the question of extending the reconstruction grants to the rural districts his serious and earnest consideration. There are voters living in these parts of the country as well as in the towns, and I do not see why you should introduce legislation to facilitate one section of the community as against another. If you give the grants to people in the rural districts to reconstruct their homes I can assure you it will be highly appreciated by them and the President will be surprised at the amount of good-will it will create.

One was glad to hear from the President the interesting statement he had to make in connection with housing. While he went fairly fully into figures, there were one or two figures that he did not give and that one would like to have. He told us in connection with the City of Dublin that since 1922 some 3,928 houses have been erected—a goodly number. But one would like to know the number of rooms in the houses comprised in this total of 3,928. I do not know whether the President has that figure available.

I have not got it at present.

It would be a rather interesting figure.

I cannot promise definitely to have it, but I will try to get it for the next stage of the Bill.

The problem of housing, as the President has pointed out, is an urgent one. I am not sure, notwithstanding what has been done, that the problem is not even more urgent to-day than it was this time twelve months, because I do not think that the number of new houses that we are putting up is sufficient to meet the depreciation— in other words, to keep up the level of housing. Those who have studied the problem at all know that the demand for single dwellings is becoming a very wide one. People are anxious to get out of these tenements and other places that their parents were quite satisfied to dwell in. Naturally they are anxious to get into the new form of dwelling, that is the separate house.

Notwithstanding that a great deal has been done, except we endeavour to do something more than has been done, I am afraid we will not succeed in making much real progress with the problem. I do not want in any way to reflect on what has been done. I say that what has been done by this Government is quite an important item in housing. Certainly for the last three years, with its limited financial resources, it has done a great deal to assist housing. As I have said, this problem is to some extent beyond both the Government and the local authorities. If we are to get nearer a solution of this difficult problem we shall have to get a great many other parties interested in housing. To do that, as I have pointed out when another measure was under consideration here recently, we want to get housing looked upon in the future as a safe investment and we want to do all that we possibly can to encourage investors to look upon housing, as I said, as a safe and wise investment.

In that connection I would like just to mention one figure that would be useful possibly to those who are interested in the subject of housing. I recently came across some figures in connection with what has been done in Great Britain and I found that while a very large number of houses had been erected by the different local authorities with State assistance, more than one-third of the houses erected in England and Wales in the year ending on 30th September, 1925, had been erected without State assistance of any kind. I only just mention that figure to show that if we could get housing into that position in which people will look upon it as an investment we would have done a great deal I am satisfied, as I said, notwithstanding everything that the Government has done and everything that the local authorities have done, that until we get housing into that position we will not be near the solution of the problem.

I was anxious to get from the President the number of rooms in the houses that had been erected. I have urged, since I have had the privilege of being in this House, that the policy of the Government in confining its efforts very largely to the erection of five-roomed houses was not on the whole a wise one, and the more one sees of that policy the more one is inclined to question its wisdom. The result of that policy has been that, in the city at all events, the larger number of the 3,928 houses erected since 1922 are five-roomed houses. The effect of that has been that people are called upon to pay rents for these houses that are beyond their means. I have discussed this problem with many tenants. The answer they have given to me is: "You cannot get houses at a low figure, consequently we have got to incur this liability in order to get houses for our families." When they get into this liability they find it is a burden they are unable to discharge.

In other words, if you take an unskilled labourer receiving something under £3 a week, perhaps £2 10s. a week, who is called upon to pay the best portion of 15/- or £1 a week for rent, it is obvious that it is a burden beyond his ability to pay. The result of that is that these tenants are compelled to sub-let in order to relieve themselves and their families of this burden. The evils that have arisen from sub-letting have been pointed out again and again. I do not want to take up the time of the Dáil enumerating them now, but I think all the Deputies in the House recognise that sub-letting is an evil. I am satisfied that that evil has been aggravated by the policy of erecting five-roomed houses. I would like to see the pendulum swing in the other direction. As I have said, the larger number of houses that have been erected in the city have been five-roomed houses. Let us now try and cater for the man who cannot afford a five-roomed house. In other words, let us cater very largely in this Bill for the man who can only afford a three-roomed house, or, if possible, a four-roomed house, but I would like to see a distinct preference given to a three-roomed house.

As the Principal Act stands at the moment, it gives a decided preference to a five-roomed house. The grants to local authorities and to private persons are just on the same ratio. The grants to local authorities are equivalent to £20 per room. For a three-roomed house the grant is £60; a four-roomed house £80; a five-roomed house £100. The grants to private persons, though smaller, bear exactly the same ratio. The grant for a three-roomed house is £45, a four-roomed house £60, and for a five-roomed house it is £75. To those interested in construction, the grant for a five-roomed house is a much more attractive one than the grant for a three-roomed house. I need not go into detail. I think that will be generally admitted. Consequently the effect of the Act of last year, and to some extent the Act of 1924, has been to give a decided preference to the five-roomed house as against the four-roomed house.

I know the President is interested in this problem, and I would like to see something more done than has been done to try and help—I will not say the very poor in the city, because providing houses for the very poor presents a very considerable problem at the moment, but I would say to try and make an effort to provide for those who cannot afford a five-roomed house. As I said, the evil of sub-letting has been brought about to some extent by the policy of the Government, and I know that many of these tenants themselves are just as anxious to get rid of this evil as any Deputy is. The only way that that can be done is by altering the schedule in this particular Bill and giving a distinct encouragement to the building of small houses in preference to the larger houses.

I welcome the decision of the Government to continue the operations of the existing Act regarding housing and to continue the grant. As to the proposition put forward by the President, one might be tempted to argue as to the wisdom of going piecemeal at this problem without regard to any planned scheme covering a number of years. I think the President's view of that is faulty—I think it is wrong. I think economy in future building lies in looking ahead for a number of years and having something in the nature of a plan, which may be modifiable, but to be able by having such a plan to economise by standardisation. I will not go into that discussion now.

I rose particularly to meet the point that the President raised regarding the failure of trade unions to utilise the method of the public utility society. Trade unions as such are not at all likely to enter into building operations, and what was in mind when this matter was referred to a couple of years ago was the possibility of trade unions which had accumulated funds and required to invest those funds—mainly, one might say, unions having their headquarters in Great Britain—having facilities provided here as they have in Great Britain for investing those funds in housing. The point was made at that time, and I understand that no change has taken place, that there is, in fact, a handicap here upon any friendly society or organisation similar to a friendly society, investing in houses, because there is an income tax charge, whereas the British system is to exempt the friendly society from income tax.

That is a factor which has prevented organisations from extending their housing schemes—one or two of them had regular housing schemes—to this country, although the men affected had pressed upon their union executives to extend their housing benefits—I will call them that for convenience sake—to housing schemes in this country. They would incur a liability here that they would not incur for similar schemes in Great Britain. I may say that within the last few days I have had emphasis laid upon the question. I have before me a letter from a big insurance society which has 60,000 policy holders in the Dublin district and which takes a large sum in the way of insurance premiums from this district. The total amount of money that that society has invested in the Free State is £1,500. Certain proposals were put forward, and are to be put forward, on behalf of the Dublin policy holders pressing upon this society to make available for investment a much larger sum—a considerable sum as a matter of fact—in this country. The explanation that is given —and I quote from the letter—is as follows:—

"With regard to investments the difficulty so far as the society is concerned is that the Free State will not agree to exemption from income tax under the Friendly Societies Act."

So that this class of society finds a barrier against investment in housing because of the differential treatment under the Friendly Societies Act. That undoubtedly explains the failure of the idea that I had in mind when I referred to the possibility of trade unions investing money in housing.

I would like if the President could give us some further figures regarding the annual wastage, particularly the wastage in Dublin district and, perhaps, even more particularly in the city of Dublin, because unless we have those figures we cannot form any judgment as to whether the present rate of building, no matter how long it may be continued, is really overcoming the shortage. One might also require to know, so far as Dublin city and district is concerned, whether the population is increasing faster than the housing accommodation. I suppose we shall only know that when the census returns are available.

I am not sure whether I am rightly interpreting the President, but I am sure I am rightly interpreting Deputy Good when I say that he is looking forward to the time, not distant, when housing can be, as it is called, put upon an economic basis—when the rent of a house is going to be sufficient to cover interest charges, upkeep and general expenses. I have said that I do not think that that is within the region of practical politics, and I doubt whether on the present basis of the social relations between employer and employed —the wage-earning basis—it will ever again be economic.

How does the Deputy account for 67,185 houses being built in England and Wales without any subsidy?

I should like to know the class of houses before I could answer the question—were they working-class houses?

Many of them are.

How many are three-roomed houses?

They can be built as an economic proposition now.

More than one-third of the houses built in England and Wales over the period ending 30th September last were built without any assistance and therefore on an economic basis.

The Deputy has not said how many of them are working-class houses occupied by wage-earners. That is the essential question. I am speaking of working-class houses based upon the wages that are prevailing.

What is a working-class house?

A house occupied by a wage-earner.

How many rooms?

The question of rooms is a matter of the rate of wages earned by the wage-earner.

I can give the Deputy figures that will assist him. I mentioned that 159,476 houses were built for the year ending 30th September last in England and Wales. Of that number 140,000 were working-class houses, so the Deputy can see that if one-third of the 159,000 were erected without any grant a very large number of those are working-class houses.

I cannot controvert the Deputy's figures or the conclusions he draws unless I have further information.

They are published figures.

I am nevertheless satisfied that so far as the problem affects us at present the prospect of building houses suitable for civilised existence in the year 1926 and onwards for a working man and his wife and family, who is earning wages that are current, without a grant or a subsidy is out of the question.

The Deputy has pleaded for the policy of building the three-roomed house, again with a view to it being economic and again with a view to it being purchased. I presume —at least that is the policy that is generally favoured: that the house should become the property of the occupier. I wonder does the Deputy look ahead and consider the position of that three-roomed house and the occupier. It may be quite satisfactory for a married couple without children, or where there are one or two children, but when the family grows the three-roomed house remains the habitation, and because it has been purchased, or is in the course of purchase, it is a fixture. The family grows and the three-roomed house remains the habitation.

I do not think that that is a prospect we ought to look forward to. I do not think we ought to build upon that anticipation. I think that the three-roomed house policy is going to fix in the minds of people occupying such houses a habit of meanness and poverty and dismal, mean surroundings. I think it is undesirable and that we ought not to set our hands to a policy that will inevitably lead to that result.

I would rather run the risk of continuing for a time the evil of undesirable sub-letting, because there is a hope as time passes that the sub-letting will be got rid of. But when you have a three-roomed house you have a family fixed in a three-roomed house, and there is an impossibility of enlarging it. The ideal that Deputy Good put forward that we should contrive to get back to the position when housing was a safe investment, I think, vitiates the Deputy's view of this problem.

I had shown to me two days ago—I am sorry I have not got it with me— a copy of what I suppose would be called a demand note in regard to a City of Dublin Corporation house. I forget the figures, but the total was analysed, showing so much for cost of collecting rent, so much for depreciation, so much for rates, so much for this, that, and the other. The total was something over £34, and the amount for interest at five per cent. was £19 odd. Now, to get a safe investment for the investor, the tenant of this house, which costs about £36 a year, has to pay £19 in interest. I thought that a very useful education, and I thank the Corporation of Dublin for their object lesson in showing where the housing problem really resides. It is very good, indeed, of the Corporation Commissioners to submit such a table, because it shows that it is the investor in house-building, or, in this case, probably the investor in Corporation Stock who is really drawing the sustenance from the wage-earner, that he is getting his return despite anything, and the five per cent., that is to say, 8/- or 8/6 a week of the tenant's earnings, is being paid week by week, year by year, for so many years to the person who invested so much money so many years ago in that particular stock.

The Deputy may find some difficulty in getting money for any investment now at less than five per cent.

Oh, yes, I quite agree. That is the whole problem. And the unfortunate part of it is that the President, helpless, I agree, cannot avoid it. The investor says: "I shall not lend my money unless I can get the world market rate. I will let everything go hang until I can get the market rate. I am going to be a Shylock." The country, the wage-earner, the business-man, every person who puts his strength into production, has to pay toll to the investor who happens to have accumulated wealth and is prepared to put that accumulated wealth in the investment that can give him the highest safe return.

What is the implication?

The implication is that the basis of the whole system is wrong, and is robbery, robbery of the farmer, of the worker and of the business-man.

What is your system?

The picture that this particular form presents to the purchasing tenants of these houses is, as I say, a very valuable economic lesson. It shows that the wage-earner's wages are, to the extent of 9/- a week or thereabouts, going to the money lender, and that the actual charges for upkeep, the actual charges for what might be called rent, amount to less than half of the weekly payments. However, I am glad that the Minister has decided to continue this scheme and these grants for another year or two. I hope that the result will be a very rapid increase in the number of houses. I hope it will be possible to find some way to reduce the weekly charge upon the tenants.

I think the problem must be faced, as we are beginning to hear, week by week, especially in the city of Dublin, that those who have bound themselves to pay certain weekly or monthly charges find themselves in difficulties about paying, that the problem is going to affect them, and unless there is regular, or fairly regular, employment available for the occupiers of these houses and wages are maintained or increased, the possibility of drawing and continuing to draw for years the rental that these people have been obliged to agree to is not very certain, and the prospect is that they will never be able to maintain these payments. However, I am not going to look too far ahead. I only remind the Minister that there is a problem arising with regard to meeting the liabilities that these people have entered upon, and I am afraid that it will become a grievous one within a few years' time.

Deputy Johnson, by implication, says that it is actually wrong to expect a return from private capital invested in houses. The only alternative to that is State capital. State capital is the capital of every citizen of the State. If the private individual does not do it the State must do it, and if so it will not be done by any particular class in the State but by every class. Most of the rural population were excluded from the operations of the last Act, of which this is proposed to be an extension. They could avail of the 1924 Act, but not of the 1925 Act, either for construction or reconstruction.

I think the Deputy is mistaken.

Except within a certain distance of a township.

No, an ordinary new house could be built at the top of the Wicklow Hills, in the Glen of Imaal, or in the city of Dublin. What the Deputy refers to was only in respect of reconstruction.

Reconstruction is a very important matter in rural areas, and we claim that reconstruction should be available and could be availed of as economically and to as good a purpose in the rural areas as anywhere else. We do not want new work to be put on bad foundations that could not be passed by any engineer worth his salt, but we say that where good foundations are available for reconstruction it should be possible to use them in the rural areas as well as in the urban areas. We take exception to that part of the Act and we hope that this Bill will depart from that policy and will allow reconstruction in the rural areas on the same lines as in the urban areas. The rural population are citizens of the State and they demand and claim as their right the same facilities and the same privileges as are given to urban dwellers. I see no reason why they should be excluded and why this distinction should be made.

It is no argument to state that under the 1924 Act the rural areas absorbed practically the whole grant. That proves, if it proves anything, that reconstruction was more needed in the rural areas, and the fact that houses were built in the rural areas at a cost of from £250 to £300, while the cost in the urban areas was almost double, goes to show the value that is got for money in the rural areas. First of all, the requirements of the rural areas are greater than they are anywhere else, and, secondly, you get better value for the money. Therefore I have no apologies to make for putting forward the claim that this Bill should be extended in all its provisions to the rural areas, both for private individuals and for local authorities. I would like to know what the President's attitude is with regard to this.

I would have to be against that, and I will give very good reasons for being against it. The total amount given to private persons in the urban areas for the reconstruction of houses, or for the reconditioning of such buildings as stables to make them into dwellings, was only £11,000 under the two Acts. The local authorities got £11,000, mainly in respect of Kehoe Barracks, the barracks in Tipperary and the barracks in Clonmel. As I mentioned in my speech, if it were not for these workhouses, barracks and other such buildings, the reconstruction clauses would not have been in these Acts, for reasons that, I think, I have already stated very fully. The expenses of administration in connection with reconstruction are inordinately high. One sees at once in the case of new houses the foundations, and so on, but in respect of reconstruction and reconditioning very much more inspection is required. The actual cost to the State is such that I could not really justify expenditure on reconstruction, and if it were not for these barracks and workhouses it would not be in this Bill at all.

Is that the President's only reason for not extending it?

That is the main reason. It is not value.

It is very important that the rural community should get exactly the same facilities as the urban areas.

If they think that this is a matter of competition between town and country, I say that all the towns have got is £11,000 for private persons.

I maintain that if this section were made to apply to the rural areas it would be availed of to a very large extent, and it would not stop at £11,000, or at five times that amount.

I know that.

You would get very good value for the money. It is required in the country more than anywhere else. The country people deserve as much consideration in this respect as any other part of the community, and the President's argument for not extending it to them is not justified. To be told that it would entail high initial expenditure is not an argument and does not meet the case that exists in the country for good houses. Go through any of the rural areas in the Western, the South-Western and the North-Western counties and you will see the need that exists. If the President took the trouble to look out of his car when he is travelling he would see the number of houses that are not fit for human habitation, where there are often sound walls that, with a little expenditure, could be made into good houses. I think that the President's attitude is altogether unjustified, and I cannot compliment him on this Bill on account of this exclusion.

I desire to add my quota of appreciation of what the Government has done by way of subsidising housing in this country. With Deputy Good I would like, however, to say that to my mind we have only touched the fringe of the problem. So far as housing generally is concerned, the subsidy of the Government is appreciated by local authorities. In view, however, of the fact that the banks are so tight about giving loans of money, and that in many cases they are refusing altogether to give loans to local authorities, the subsidy is not very much good. I thought that in his statement the President would have said something about extending the facilities of the Local Loans Fund to local authorities during the coming year.

In provincial centres, at the moment, it is absolutely impossible for local authorities to build houses to let at an economic rent. In many towns through the country the banks have refused altogether to give loans to the local authorities for the purpose of carrying out housing schemes, even though those local authorities were in a good financial position. The attitude of the banks in that respect has prevented houses from being built, while it has also prevented local authorities from taking advantage of the Housing Facilities Act. The President referred to the work done by the Dublin Commissioners: to the houses already built and to those in course of construction, and he said that these were being let at a reasonable rent. That may be the case so far as the City of Dublin is concerned, but I put it to the President that what might be looked upon as a reasonable rent in the City of Dublin could not be looked upon as a reasonable rent in other areas of the Saorstát.

When the previous Housing Acts were going through this House, I advocated, on behalf of small provincial towns, that the subsidy in their case should be larger and that some differentiation should be made as between the City of Dublin and provincial towns in the Saorstát.

Is that because of the wealth of the City of Dublin?

No, but because people in the City of Dublin are in a position to pay more rent than people in other centres. Prior to the housing scarcity that the country is suffering from at the moment, and prior to the war, rents were higher in the City of Dublin than they were in other towns in the country. I am not saying that that is correct or that there is any justification for the very high rents that prevail in the City of Dublin, but workers in provincial centres are not in a position to pay as high a rent as they are in the City of Dublin.

I think the President will agree with me when I say that it is impossible for local authorities to build houses unless the banks are brought to a better frame of mind than they are in at the moment. The attention of the President and of the Minister for Finance was called to this matter on numerous occasions previously. They promised that the money in the Local Loans Fund would be made available for local authorities to enable them to build houses. It is only when that is done and when we get back to the pre-war position when the Board of Works were enabled to loan money for a period of from 40 years to 60 years, that this housing question can be undertaken properly in the State. Under present conditions the solution of this problem cannot make much progress. The position will be that while a good many houses are being built a great many others will have fallen, so that for a great number of years we will be in the position we are in to-day unless the local authorities are facilitated by way of long-term loans.

There is one particular matter I wish to refer to in connection with the Building Facilities Act. The President referred to the modified plan that is being taken advantage of by various local authorities in the country. Drogheda, Ardee and Wexford have taken advantage of it and recently built twelve houses. The President called them four-roomed houses. I, too, call them four-roomed houses, but the Housing Department are only giving a grant of £70 when the local authority is entitled to £80 for a four-roomed house. The Housing Department are not permitting the cubicle to be described as a room, and I ask the President to see that some arrangement is made whereby the local authority will get full advantage of the Act, because these are certainly four-roomed houses, and I believe that the £80 grant should be given in respect of them. I again congratulate the Government on what they have done for housing.

In conclusion, I would make a special appeal to the President to see that in the next financial year, if he cannot do it in this financial year, money is made available from the Local Loans Fund to enable local authorities to take up this question of housing: to enable them to make greater efforts to solve it in the future than they have been able to do within the last two or three years.

I think the President and the Government are to be very heartily congratulated on the very excellent house-building work that is being done in and around Dublin. It has changed the whole appearance of the suburbs. The houses that are being built are very pretty, and it is very encouraging to see such efforts being made to provide nice houses for the people. While that is true with regard to Dublin, I must say that I entirely agree with the remarks of Deputy Gorey and Deputy Corish, namely, that the urban centres throughout the country are in a great need of houses. Anyone who motors through the country must feel sadly impressed by the great number of terribly bad houses that we still have in the country. You still see houses with no windows and the smoke coming out of the doors. Though the Government has done a wonderful lot in providing houses for the people, this is an aspect of the question that I would impress on them.

It is clear that there is a lot of leeway still to be made up before we will have got rid of all these wretched houses. Some of them are not fit for animals to live in. They are not fit for cows or even pigs. I think that greater sums of money should be put at the disposal of the local authorities by way of loan or otherwise to enable them to get rid of these terribly bad houses. We still have too many one-roomed houses in the country. They are neither decent nor habitable. In many small towns you see a large family housed in one miserable room. We have also too many two-roomed houses, and I do not think we should have them. It is my opinion that we should not have anything less than four-roomed houses. I think that a big effort should be made for the sake of the credit of the State to have our working population properly housed.

In regard to this housing question there is still vast room for improvement, and money could not be spent in any better way than in trying to solve the problem. If it were possible, I think the President should see that more money was placed at the disposal of local authorities for the purpose of adding additional accommodation to some of the houses that we have, and in making provision for the housing of the poor in out-of-the-way districts where the position in this respect is very bad.

I want to say that I welcome the decision of the Government to extend the provisions of the 1925 Housing Act, even though I do not agree that it is anything like an adequate contribution towards this very serious problem. The President gave us a very interesting statement with regard to the position of housing in the Saorstát to-day. I am only sorry that I cannot draw the consolation from it which he appears to draw nor can I visualise the happy condition of things which he appears to think is only a very short distance off.

The President told us that under the 1924 and 1925 Housing Acts 7,300 houses have been built. That certainly looks a big figure, but when you spread 7,300 houses over the Free State, and remember that each year a certain number of insanitary dwellings go out of use, that this year, just as last year, a certain number of such dwellings will go out of use, and that there ought to be out of use a great number of hovels which masquerade as houses, one is brought up against the fact that if we are doing anything in regard to the housing problem at the moment it is only making good the natural wastage and shrinkage of housing accommodation. The President told us that 7,300 houses had been built under these particular Acts. If we take the number of those houses which contain quite considerable accommodation and which are not within the reach of the ordinary working man to rent, one must realise that so far as providing for the needs of workingmen are concerned, the problem has not even been touched so far as a great number of districts are concerned. With the exception of houses built by local authorities, all the others have been built for sale, so that it is impossible for the ordinary workingman to find the wherewithal to pay the rent of one of these houses, or to take advantage of the housing that is going on at present.

The people who have money have taken advantage of any houses built for the purpose of sale. These people certainly have got some relief, but the workingman depending on a wage of £2, £2 10s. or £3 per week has not felt any benefit from all the house building that has gone on under the 1924 and 1925 Acts, except the benefit that might be conferred upon him by the small number of houses erected under municipal schemes. It may be taken generally that private enterprise is interested in building houses not with a view to providing for the needs of those who require houses, but for the purpose of making a profit out of them, and they realise that a profit will be made out of houses by selling them. These houses are sold to people who have money and can afford to buy them, and the responsibility for providing houses for the ordinary working man and working woman devolves on the local authorities. I know that a goodly number of local authorities have endeavoured to face up to the problem of providing houses for working-class people, but they have had to contend with very real difficulties in the way of doing so. Local authorities have found it impossible to get loans from the banks. Even local authorities with low rates and a good rateable area have found it extremely difficult to get money from the banks for even a period of 15 years. It is quite impossible for any local authority, so far as I know, to get a loan for any period exceeding 15 years. With housing costs what they are in Dublin, a 15 years' loan means one thing, and that one thing is high rent.

When a man in need of a house is brought up against the problem of high rent, he may commit himself to that liability, but he can never meet that liability unless he resorts to the evil of sub-letting, which ultimately develops into the evil of overcrowding. The problem of overcrowding is becoming increasingly acute, because rents are high, which is due to the fact that the banks will not make money available for long terms, and the Government has not seen fit, up to the present, to provide money for housing purposes under the Loans Fund. Notwithstanding the rosy picture of housing conditions which the President painted, I am of the opinion that there is very little real improvement in housing conditions to-day as compared with four or five years ago. Every member of a local authority knows perfectly well that the demand for houses to-day is as great as it was four or five years ago. There is no gainsaying that. Every member of a local authority will substantiate what I say.

It appears to me that the problem of housing, which has been allowed to develop to an acutely serious degree, will not be solved by the subsidies outlined in the 1924 or 1925 Acts. I think the problem will only be solved when the money of the people, at present invested in Timbuctoo and Borneo, in wildly speculative schemes, is brought home here and used for the benefit of the people here. I suggest to the Government that it would be a very good plan—a plan which would have the support of every Party in this House—now that we are told so often that we have only a small national debt, to raise a loan of £10,000,000 with a view to putting this housing problem in such a position as would enable us to see a solution of it in a very short time.

I welcome the announcement of this supplementary grant in connection with housing. There is nothing so urgently needed in town or country as proper housing facilities. I appreciate the difficulty in connection with the extension of the Reconstruction Grant to rural areas, but I know that the towns have not taken, up to the present, full advantage of that grant. It is extraordinary, too, how few people seem to understand what they ought to do in the building of a house in order to obtain a grant. I would suggest that the Local Government Department should send to the county councils and other public boards a copy of the specification of various houses, according to the Local Government Department's plans. In the constituency I come from, a large number of people start to build houses, not having complied with the measurements specified by the Local Government Department, and, when the houses are half built, they find they are not eligible for the grant.

I bring this suggestion to the notice of the Department because if it were carried out the people in the country could go into the office and inspect the plans, and select the three, four or five-room model. That, I think, would facilitate the building of houses to a great extent. It is only within the last six or nine months that the people of Westmeath seem to have taken an interest in this matter. At present, I am glad to say, there are a large number of houses built. I should like, if the President will consider the suggestion I have made as regards making these plans available to the people through the medium of the local authorities.

I think there is a great deal to be said for Deputy Shaw's suggestion. The benefits of the 1925 Act should be brought more clearly and more closely home to private persons. The local authorities have endeavoured to take advantage, and in some cases have succeeded in taking advantage, of the 1925 Act, and the present Bill, by way of extension of that Act, is decidedly commendable. I am inclined to agree with various speakers that there might be differentiation made in regard to the urban areas outside the City of Dublin. In the various Rent Restriction Acts which have been passed, there was a distinction made as to the rent and valuation of houses within the metropolitan area and elsewhere. It is only fair to say that though, generally speaking, the wealth of Dublin may not be far in excess of that of other centres in the country, rents in the past have been on a higher scale in Dublin, and, for some reason or other, they were obtainable on that high scale.

The proposal, so far as it goes, is good. My only comment is that perhaps it does not go sufficiently far. The local authorities have endeavoured to operate, and have partially succeeded in operating the Act of 1925, but there is a great deal to be said for the suggestion that there should be some form of long-term loans. The Board of Works, in days gone by, were able to render enormous help in the direction outlined, and by the methods described by Deputy Corish. I am sure that the Government cannot have overlooked the possibility of reviving those loans. I should like if the President would give some indication of the results of their inquiries in this direction, and if he would say whether it is possible to revive the system under which those loans were made.

What inquiries does the Deputy refer to?

I refer to the loans which used to be made by the Board of Works, extending over periods from forty to sixty years. There is a matter germane to the question under discussion which I should like to remind the President and the House of, though I may not be strictly in order in doing so on the Second Reading of this Bill. There is at the disposal of a certain body at present a sum of, I think, three-quarters of a million for the provision of houses for certain classes of people in the Saorstát. I refer to the money granted by the British Parliament, which was to be expended by a body known as the Land Trust in providing houses for ex-British servicemen resident here. Would it be possible for the President to do something to speed up the erection of these houses? I know that it is not exactly within the purview of this Parliament. At the same time, I think it is only right that our Government should approach the British Government and should inform the British Government of the existing state of affairs. That state of affairs is that practically no houses have been built for ex-servicemen in this country and that the money is there to build them. I make this suggestion not only for the advantage and benefit of ex-servicemen, as such, but for the benefit of the general community. If put into operation, not only would this scheme be of use to the particular class for which it was intended, but it would obviate the necessity of the Government here providing houses for these people or for others of like character.

I would impress on the President the absolute neglect which, up to the present, has occurred in putting into operation this large sum of money for the erection of houses for citizens of this country. I would respectfully ask the President, on behalf of the Government here, to impress upon the British Government the delay there has been in this matter and to endeavour to get the British Government to speed matters up and to have houses provided for the people for whom they were to be provided. That suggestion, I think, is germane to the subject under discussion, because we are all anxious to provide houses for our people. Here is an opportunity which has not been taken to provide houses for a large number of well-deserving citizens of the State.

I will take the last point first. It is no part of my duty to interfere in that matter, but I had some interviews with one of the trustees—Senator General Sir Bryan Mahon—and I know he is very anxious to have the work expedited. Other people have seen me also in connection with the matter, including Deputy Cooper and Senator Sir William Hickie. I have hopes that much more work will be done in the near future than has been done in the past. The matter, I think, will be speeded up very shortly.

Can the President say how many of these houses have been erected? I understand that a large number have been erected.

A considerable number have been erected. In one district on the outskirts of the city over 200 have been erected. I should say that about a thousand of these houses, in all, have been erected up to the present.

I am aware that houses have been erected in the vicinity of Dublin and elsewhere, but when I say that not a single house has been erected in Cork Cty, or Waterford City, or in certain other centres, the nature of the delay which has taken place will be understood.

It is only right to say that a large number of these houses are being erected throughout the country. I have no information regarding the two counties that Deputy Redmond has referred to, but in some of the adjacent counties houses of this class have been erected.

I think that a thousand of these houses have been erected and that about 2,500 remain to be built. Everything possible, on our part, to expedite that work has been already done. We had hoped that by reason of the rate reduction laid down in the Local Government Act some stimulus would have been given to the construction of those houses. I think it will be found in that Act that a proportion of the rates was remitted in respect of new houses.

I quite agree, but my complaint is that they have not done it.

Under the Local Government Act two-thirds of the rates are allowed from 1927 to 1933. I think I brought it under the notice of the trustees of the Soldiers and Sailors Trust that it would be advisable, in order to get the full benefits, that they would start without delay to build houses. It is really a considerable benefit. It means that houses would not be liable for the full proportion of rates for quite a long period. It is true the Board of Works lent money in pre-war days to local authorities. It is not true to say that there were oceans of money available for the purpose of lending. It is true that the money was there at a small rate of interest, but it is not true to say that any greater work was done during 50 years through the running of such loans than we have done in four years.

It is all very well to have a lecture delivered here in regard to housing schemes and how they should be carried out. We have had that from Deputy Norton, but there are many matters which the Deputy overlooked. A ten million loan is one thing. Any person can quite easily suggest a loan of ten millions; but it is another thing to go into the market and get that loan. There is a very great difference in suggesting the loan and getting it. As far as I know anything of the finances of the people who have money in this country, there are very few who have invested their money in wild-cat schemes in Timbuctoo. While we may criticise the bank rate or the rate of interest, what is the reason that it is so high? One reason is that income tax is at a high level. When we hear of a person getting five per cent. on his money it does not mean that he can put the five per cent. in his pocket. Four shillings in the £ have to be paid in income tax, and in some cases super-tax has to be met, and that does not leave a full five per cent. to go into one's pocket.

I thought Deputy Johnson put his finger on the trouble that he sought to put his finger on when he described this particular institution which has a large number of clients in this country but which declined to invest money here because of the income tax. I presume they wanted five per cent. or something like that, and the only thing that kept them from getting it was the fact that we were charging income tax here. Those people may be philanthropic-minded, but they are not satisfied to pay 4/- in the £.

They are not philanthropic-minded—far from that.

There is no objection to them getting five per cent.

This Friendly Society, which is a Glasgow Friendly Society, and similar societies, have not invested their money here while they are doing it in England. In England the conditions regarding friendly society investments in housing are that they are free from income tax. The conditions here are that they are not free. I merely wanted to point out that.

It might be rather interesting for these societies, if they are insurance societies, to observe what a very beneficial effect good housing has on the health of the people.

Hear, hear.

It might pay them even to forego the income tax. An examination of the improvements in Cork City and Dublin City will show that some extraordinarily beneficial effects have taken place within ten years. I would like Deputy Norton to know that a very close examination of the housing problem was made in 1919, and it was estimated that Rathmines and Rathgar required 239 houses. Through the operation of these Acts 242 houses have been supplied there; in other words, they have three houses more than they required. If that had occurred when I was connected with the Corporation I would have said it was a remarkable contribution towards the solution of the housing problem.

What the President has stated now proves that there was no very careful examination made. If there were a careful examination made in 1919 the housing problem in Rathmines and Rathgar would be solved. I invite the President to come to my house, sit in the hall and listen to the people who come week after week asking for houses. They cannot get houses. I do not believe 1,000 houses would satisfy the demand. If there were sufficient houses I would have no complaint to make.

If 1,000 houses would satisfy the needs of the people there, and in four years you have 242 houses erected, I should say that is doing remarkably well. When I was in the Corporation I came to the conclusion that if the housing problem around Dublin was solved in 20 years very good work would have been done. At that time I got very sound advice in regard to the actual capabilities of the building trades to turn out houses. At one time I was informed it would not be possible to build more than 500 houses. That figure has been exceeded to a remarkable degree. I went so far as to demand 1,000 houses per annum and I was told it was utterly out of the question. In three years something like 2,800 houses have been built, and I think that is a very considerable advance.

We would like very much if money were available in the Local Loans Fund for housing. We were told it was there to an illimitable extent in pre-war days, but it was never drawn out; it was never got. The total amount at present due in respect of housing by urban authorities is somewhere in the neighbourhood of one and three-quarter millions. In the case of the Labourers Acts something like six millions are due. There is no use in hiding from ourselves the fact that it was very much easier to borrow money at that time than it is now. The surplus money available for lending to the Government and private persons in this country at present is relatively small. It is not fair to say to the banks: "You must lend this money or you are niggardly." In my view the banks have been generous in respect of loans to local authorities—particularly generous. One would think, from seeing certain observations made by members of local authorities, that the banks were at liberty to lend this money and it was only a question of saying either "Yes" or "No." That is not the case. The banks have had commitments in respect of long-term loans before these demands for houses were made on them; I am positively certain that each bank had some commitments in respect of long-term loans. The only available money they have got for a long-term loan is the difference between the commitments at that particular time and whatever their share capital and reserve funds amount to, less the sums spent in buildings and furniture and other things. I think that will be admitted. That is a relatively small sum.

The banking capital in this country is a very small percentage of the huge sums that they have on deposit. Those sums must be available on demand or at short notice, and they require to have a very considerable amount of money in liquid assets. In reference to money tied up such as this, there is no question about its security; the security is excellent. But banking is carried on on a different basis to security. Financial houses deal with security, but banks must have liquid assets and they are not at liberty to issue money on long-term loans. I am not making that statement after having been primed by the banks. I have seen no banker on this question at all. It is simply my own opinion I am expressing. It is due to the banks that that should be made known. They have met us in a reasonable spirit in connection with this matter, but I am perfectly satisfied that they are not justified in going any further than they have gone.

I would like to remind Deputy Norton that while the National Loan has remained at a very good figure for the credit of the country during the last year or two years, there was a time within the last two years and six months when the quotations for the National Loan showed a very marked discount on its issue price. The Deputy may say that was remedied in a short time. I say that is so, but it would not be for the good of this country that such fluctuations would continue. The larger the amount there is out in connection with the National Loan the greater the danger of such fluctuations. My advice would be to borrow only when needed, and to borrow as little as possible. A country starting, as this country has started, with many disadvantages, with many people looking to see where the weakness is, cannot lightly embark on very big loans.

The policy in connection with housing has been to put up as fair a contribution towards the abnormalities of the situation as the State was able to afford. We are satisfied that we have made as big a contribution as the State could afford in the circumstances towards the solution of this problem. It is only one of many services for which the State is responsible. It is not a question of solving simply one problem or looking after one service specially. One must keep an eye over all the services and over all the demands in connection with various services.

Deputy Gorey was scarcely fair in regard to the question of reconstruction. As I understood the case made in respect of reconstruction for rural areas, it was that because provision was made for towns provision should also be made for rural areas. The housing problem, as it was known, had reference mainly to urban and municipal areas.

The housing problem as it was known? By whom?

By the people generally.

Not at all.

A person can live in comparative comfort in the country in a dwelling which would be regarded as highly insanitary in a city. That may not be accepted in its entirety, but it is very near the mark. In other words, a particular dwelling is not an insanitary dwelling unless it is in close proximity to many others of the same character. What are the facts in regard to slum dwellings? Firstly you have congestion, and, secondly, lack of sanitary accommodation; mainly you have the lack of air and sunshine. Those things are not lacking in the country in the same way as they are lacking in a city or town. While a person might have a very small room in the country, the same size of a room in a city would be almost a pestiferous habitation. In the country there is no such thing, and one can live in comparative comfort in a habitation in the country which would be almost as much as life would be worth if one were to live in a similar room in the city.

Would the President like to come on a little excursion with me, and I will show him amazing things in connection with rural housing?

I have seen them.

You have not, and you did not want to see them. I think you were a good judge.

I have seen housing conditions in practically every county of the Saorstát. As far as these Acts are concerned, the rural areas have certainly got as much advantage out of them as the town areas, if not more. So far as I can judge, more than fifty per cent. of the money has been spent in rural areas.

Will the President explain that reconstruction under the Bill does not mean repairs to existing dwellings?

No; it does not. There seems to be some misunderstanding in regard to that. If I had a four-room house which is out of repair and if I put it into repair, say, by putting a roof on it or by putting a wall into it, I would not get one penny under the Act. Take, however, the case of a house in respect of which there is a good stable adjoining, and a proposal comes in to reconstruct and make it into a habitable dwelling, as many such stables have been made habitable; that would be a case in which reconstruction would be in accordance with the Act. There is that difference between reconstruction and repair. The question of repair would not come in except perhaps in the case of a house which has neither windows nor doors but which could be made habitable out of its four existing walls.

Take a house with a good foundation and which could be extended by means of an additional room or the walls of which could be raised so as to provide a second storey —would not that be reconstruction?

As it is a long time since I studied the reconstruction parts of this Bill I can only say offhand that, if it was a habitable dwelling, capable of housing a particular individual, and if the extra storey would not house additional persons, in that case it would not be reconstruction.

I have in mind a house, not where an individual is living, but where a family is living, but which is not big enough to contain the family, so that either an additional storey or an additional room is necessary.

That would not be covered by the Bill as it stands. I have no information regarding wastage. It was very severe twelve or thirteen years ago. I know that if there were a sufficiency of houses at present, quite a number of houses which are now inhabited would be condemned. In response to Deputy Good, I may say that there is a considerable number of three-room and four-room houses in the course of construction, mainly in the cities of Cork and Dublin, but also in other areas in respect of which that modified plan, of which I spoke, is in progress. Perhaps on the Committee Stage I would have some more information about that. In the case of Drumcondra there are 158 three-room and four-room houses, and in the case of Fairbrothers' field, I think, there are between 40 and 50 in addition to the flats already mentioned in Kehoe barracks, Clonmel barracks, and Tipperary barracks.

Out of a total of——?

I think the 158 houses in Drumcondra and Glasnevin are in connection with a 500 house scheme. In the case of Ardee. Drogheda, and other places, I think they are small schemes, but I will endeavour to have more information on the Committee Stage.

I would like to ask the President in regard to public utility societies, whether it is a case that their efforts are, so far as possible, being expedited or whether difficulties are being put in their way. I know one society which spent a good deal of money in turning the building into flats and, in response to various suggestions, spent money in various ways, but now, when all their money has been spent, I understand that they are refused money under the Act.

I would like more particulars in regard to that. I will look into that case. As regards Deputy Good's query as to the number of three-room and four-room houses, I understand that of the 500 houses in connection with the Drumcondra and Glasnevin scheme the majority are three-room and four-room houses. There are 59 four-room houses in Fairbrothers' field. The tendency amongst smaller local authorities is to provide four-room dwellings. These have been built, or are in the course of building, in Drogheda, Ardee, Wexford, Clonmel and Dungarvan.

Of the 3,000 houses built, perhaps the President could inform us on the Committee Stage how many are three-room and four-room houses?

Could the President give the number of four-room houses built in Dolphin's Barn district?

There are 59 such houses in that area. Deputy Corish raised a question as to providing a larger subsidy for small local authorities. I gave that matter consideration this morning and I am not satisfied that we would be justified in discriminating. In Dublin, for instance, there is a higher wage paid and a higher rent can be paid there than, say, in Wexford. In Dublin the price of a house is approximately 20 per cent. higher than in Wexford. I think, in view of that fact, that Dublin might reasonably make a case for a larger subsidy. Although the subsidy is £20 a room, in the case of a four-room house of the modified plan I do not think that it would be fair to give the full £80. I think they have given £70 in the case of houses according to the modified plan, and I heard to-day, in respect of one local authority, that such a house cost, approximately, £270. Deducting the £70 subsidy, that would leave the authority £200 for a four-room house. That, I think, is getting very near the mark.

Question—"That the Bill be read a Second Time"—put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Friday, 18th June.
Sitting suspended at 6.15 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.,
The Dáil went into Committee on Finance.
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