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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 16

APPROPRIATION BILL, 1926—SECOND STAGE (RESUMED).

I desire to say a few words in support of the case that has been made by members of the Labour Party and by Deputy Hewat in regard to the question of unemployment. I do not think that the word "case" is the proper one; I think "demand" would suit the attitude of these Deputies better. The most refreshing thing about the discussion has been the fact that members of the Labour Party and Deputy Hewat, who, on other occasions, may differ, have agreed that this problem is one of the greatest urgency and that it should be dealt with at once by the Government on a broad line of policy. That it is pressing, imminent, and of the greatest —possibly the greatest—importance of anything on the political horizon at the moment cannot be gainsaid. I am sure that not a day passes but every Deputy is confronted with the appalling condition of affairs in regard to unemployment, both in his own constituency and elsewhere. It is a problem which presents extreme difficulties. It is not confined to this country; it is still in existence in England. The conditions are somewhat different there, and I do not think that there is the same — shall I say — justification for the extent of unemployment, proportionately, in this country as there is in Great Britain. Be that as it may, they have made provision across the water for dealing with this matter on certain lines. Here we actually limited the amount of unemployment benefit by depriving those who, at one time, were entitled to what was known as uncovenanted benefit, of that sort of relief, whereas in England they have actually extended that. I am strongly in favour of all kinds of relief works, works of the nature of road-making, and indeed of large projects such as the Shannon scheme and the proposed beet industry, both of which I was in favour of—though I was not in favour of the methods employed in either—particularly on account of the employment that they would give. While I agree that the Government has done much in that direction and that the works of public utility which have been embarked upon will undoubtedly for the moment relieve a certain amount of unemployment, still they will not actually do anything eventually to do away with the problem that now confronts us.

I think that the Minister has now an opportunity, in answer to the demands put forward conjointly by Deputy Johnson and Deputy Hewat, of announcing, if he is in a position to do so, what the Government policy is in regard to the question of unemployment. It may be asking too much; I know that it is not an easy matter for any Government, but I would like to impress upon the Government the extreme urgency of the matter and the necessity for being prepared to come here in the autumn with some plan for dealing with this problem, a problem which will necessarily become more acute as the winter approaches and goes on. Unemployment is by no means confined to the City of Dublin. Possibly, in proportion to its population, the City of Dublin is better off than many provincial towns, because within the last few years industries have grown up in Dublin. Tobacco factories have been started and other institutions have come into being. But take the ordinary provincial town, take the scattered villages throughout the country—I am not now referring to the rural areas but am confining myself to the towns and villages—I say that the state of unemployment in them is probably worse than it has ever been, and the state of trade in any of these centres, as Deputy Hewat has said, is certainly nothing to boast of. That being so, we are confronted now, and we shall be confronted more so when we resume our sittings in the autumn, with a problem which is of the utmost urgency and imminence and which I trust the Minister will be able to say to-day that he and the Government intend to deal with, not altogether by way of temporary assistance or relief, but more by way of a permanent policy whereby he hopes to alleviate and, if possible, do away with the greater part, if not all, of this unemployment. As I said before, it is not a child's task, but the Government are there, and while they are there they are responsible for providing for unemployment, just as much as they are responsible for the general conduct of any other affair in the State. Unemployment is certainly one of the problems which they cannot and must not overlook. It is knocking at the door. It is there night and morning. Some of the people who are out of employment are in a pitiable condition, so that it is the solemn and immediate duty of the Government, at the earliest possible date, to propose some measure, not of temporary but of permanent alleviation. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us that assurance and I anxiously await what he has to say on the subject.

I believe that the statistics which can be produced by the Minister for Industry and Commerce regarding unemployment are no indication at all of the amount of unemployment there is throughout the country. A great many people who were employed did not come within the scope of the Unemployment Insurance Act. I come from a district that has been very much affected by unemployment. Deputies are aware that Fermoy, Queenstown, Buttevant, and a few other districts were very hard hit by the departure of the British troops and the unemployment that ensued. Some of those who were employed were young men, others were old men, and there were some women, none of whom was registered under the Unemployment Insurance Act. In Queenstown there are 500 or 600 men unemployed.

Call it what you like. These men are unemployed and they do not care what the town is called if they can get something to eat. A great many of them who are hungry are sorry it is called Cobh. At any rate there are five or six hundred men walking the streets because there is no work to be done in Haulbowline. A similar state of affairs exists in Buttevant. A large number of men are idle there, and no provision has been made for their employment. It was hoped to get a beet factory there, but that hope failed. It was then hoped to get the Aubeag drainage carried out, but that is postponed. There is now one hope on the part of the unemployed in that district, and that is to get a share of the £2,000,000 grant that has been promised. If we are to get this grant, for whatever work it is to be utilised on, let it be given immediately. Men whose wives and children are hungry cannot afford to wait. The Government should expedite the giving of this grant in order that the children can be fed and attend school. At present some children cannot go to school, as there is no use in trying to teach them while they are hungry. We have five flour mills in the district running less than half time. In previous years they gave a good deal of employment. We also have two woollen mills, one of which is shut down. The other, I might say, is crawling along, keeping the rust off the wheels.

From what I have said, Deputies will understand the amount of distress that prevails in that district. I urge the Government to immediately issue the £2,000,000 that they promised and allow some of it to be utilised in removing dangerous corners on the roads. The money need not be all spent in metalling the roads. Some of it could be spent in removing dangerous corners, which are a menace to present-day traffic, and which have been responsible for the death of a great many people. I earnestly appeal to the Government on behalf of the people that I know are hungry, because they cannot find employment, to issue this grant immediately and give each county its proper quota. Cork, being the largest county, is entitled to the largest amount and it also contains the best people.

You would not take it all.

No, we are a generous people. Again I would appeal to the Minister to put this sum of £2,000,000 into circulation so that the children will be in a position to go to school in the mornings and not have to remain crying at home at a fireless fireside and before a breakfastless table.

I think the practical suggestion put forward has been the suggestion of Deputy Johnson that during the Recess the Executive Council should consider whether the policy in regard to unemployment benefit should not be reconsidered, and that it should, in fact, prepare to put legislation before the Dáil when it re-assembles giving extended benefits. It is very easy to talk about dealing with the problem of unemployment in the way some Deputies talk, but it is a different thing to solve the problem. This Government cannot be expected to do what other governments have been unable to do. I do not know that mobilising the resources of the State in the way we would mobilise them to meet an invasion would suffice. It is much easier to mobilise the resources of the State to deal with a military emergency than to mobilise them for industrial action. In the one country where a great experiment is being carried out of mobilising the resources of the State for industrial action I do not know that the evils are completely got rid of. It is very difficult, of course, to get authentic information, but I understand that the difficulties of mobilising the whole resources of the people can be understood from the devices and measures that have to be resorted to in that country.

What country?

What does the Minister know about it? The "Daily Mail"?

I am not very much influenced by the "Daily Mail" or by the people who talk in a scoffing way about what is a stupendous experiment, but I am pointing out that when we are asked here to provide a remedy for unemployment we are being asked to do what is not, I think, possible for us to do. The best we can do is to alleviate it. There can be alleviation by way of relief and by way of extended unemployment benefit, as Deputy Johnson has suggested. We had some hesitation in arriving at the decision not to pay uncovenanted benefit any longer. We had the position under review at various times since then, and we are not tied in the matter. If on further consideration of the situation, and if other measures do not sufficiently lessen the unemployment problem, we would be prepared to restore uncovenanted benefit. We do not want to do that, because we believe that the payment of uncovenanted benefit gives rise to abuses and has its own economic disadvantages; that it is not as good as a scheme of works which, perhaps, might not cover as many people, but if we could meet an appreciable number of individual cases by works it would be better than meeting the larger number of cases by unemployment benefit.

We have done a good deal towards providing work. What we are doing is not to be measured by the size of the Vote for the relief schemes this year. It is true that the Vote this year is only £50,000, but there are other funds provided which will give employment. There is not £250,000 but £500,000 in the Local Loans Vote, and employment will be given by the expenditure of that money. £250,000 of it is available for loans to local authorities for certain classes of public works. That will give a substantial amount of employment. Other parts of it are for loans to improve lands and for the erection of farm buildings. Another part of it will be spent on drainage works under the Drainage Maintenance Act. I might say that although nothing will be done under the Arterial Drainage Act, that a very considerable amount of work will be done during the summer under the Drainage Maintenance Act and will give employment to, I suppose, about 3,000 men. Then we have provision in the Votes for a sum of £348,000 for housing grants. That again will give a good deal of employment. In the Land Commission Vote there is provision for a sum of £300,000 for the improvement of estates, and that also will provide a good deal of employment. For the erection of new works and for certain drainage works, there is a provision in the Board of Works Vote for a sum amounting to £766,000. Some of that will go in material, but a great portion of it will go in giving employment. We are taking steps to supplement the Road Fund so that a very substantial amount of abnormal employment, or, shall I say, employment out of the ordinary, will be given on roads.

The amount that we are spending on the sugar beet subsidy will result in a good deal of employment being given in the erection of the factory, the making of sidings and all that, while a substantial amount of employment will also be given in the factory itself. I do not know at the moment—I have not the figures to hand what will be spent on the Shannon scheme during the year, but I think I am safe in saying that three-quarters of a million pounds or more may be spent. We are doing these things, and while we probably would have done a great number of them even if uncovenanted benefit was still being paid, there is no doubt but that in considering schemes we were influenced by the fact that uncovenanted benefit was not being paid, and we were anxious to extend and hurry on and give employment so far as we could. If we could open out in other directions and spend money usefully on capital works, we would be very anxious to do it and meet the situation that way rather than resort to uncovenanted benefit which has certain objections relating to the morale of the workers, objections not as bad, of course, as leaving the workers without anything. There is no use talking about big loans. That is beginning at the wrong end of the stick.

Who started the talk about raising the big loans?

I did not.

Members of the Minister's own party did.

Well, they were foolish in that.

Not for the first time.

We have money in the Exchequer. We have never turned down any scheme because we could not get money for it. We have money in the Exchequer, and we have credit to borrow any sums that will be required for any sound sensible works decided on, but there is no sense in borrowing money, paying 5¼ per cent. for it, and holding it idle earning 3 per cent. The thing to do is to get works and get schemes. When we have schemes and are going ahead with them, and the cheques are being drawn, we will be able to get the money.

Put money into the Local Loans Fund for housing.

We are dealing very substantially with housing at the moment, and if we were advancing money out of local loans we would have to consider whether we would not have to modify the present grants. In any case, that is not one of the types of industry where employment is worst. Our policy to meet it has been to get schemes as quickly as we can that are sound schemes and to carry them on. In addition we have had the tariff policy which has had some little effect, and which will have more effect, but which cannot be expected to give great results speedily. New legislation such as that which the Minister for Agriculture has introduced has also, by whatever benefits it has already conferred on agriculture, tended to give employment. But there is no royal way of meeting the problem of unemployment. All countries practically, certainly most countries, at present are troubled by it. I doubt that the heroic measures of mobilising the whole resources and forces of the people are practicable. If they were practicable they could only be carried out after making great sacrifices. They might leave us no better, and might even leave us in a worse position than at present. But if people think that by next October or November, or later, this or any other government is going to come in with a plan to deal with the unemployment problem they are expecting too much. The most we can do is to hope that the measures we can take will substantially alleviate it, and that the co-operation of all interests will still further alleviate it, and bring it at any rate to bearable proportions. It is perhaps worth while reiterating that it is not a matter for the Government. All sorts of people, if they feel that it is a serious problem, must in their own business think of how help can best be given towards dealing with it. I have many times talked about people who have control of business, industry, and capital, and who are not too prompt to do anything in this country, and there are also even cases—it is not necessary to go into them—where the labour interests have not been as accommodating as would be wise. I do not want to raise a debate on that, but it is nonsense for anybody to say that it is labour, trade unions, strikes, and that sort of thing that are responsible for the trouble. There is no one section or interest who can throw all the blame on others. I do not say the Government has done everything it might have done, but at least it has done something, and if it is called upon to do more, other interests involved might also be called upon to do more.

Question—"That the Bill be read a second time"—put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 30th June.
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