I move that the Report of the Select Committee appointed to consider the Land Bill (No. 2), 1926, be laid on the Table, and that the Report and Minutes of the Select Committee be printed and circulated.
REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE TO CONSIDER THE LAND BILL (No. 2), 1926.
Mr. HOGAN
I propose, with the leave of the House, to withdraw this Land Bill and to introduce a new Land Bill which will embody most of the recommendations in this Report.
On a point of procedure, I think that in view of the Minister's statement we should understand how we are placed. I understand from the Minister's statement that he intends to embody most of the recommendations of the Committee in the new Land Bill, but that there are certain recommendations of the Committee which he does not intend to embody. As I understand the procedure, if the recommendations which arc left out have no relevance to any existing section in the new Bill when it comes before the House, then Deputies will have no power to discuss these particular recommendations. I suggest that it is a very important matter. Certain recommendations were put before the Select Committee and debated. In some cases they were carried by a vote. If the Minister now decides not to embody those recommendations in the new Land Bill it will mean that they cannot be discussed by the Dáil in a way that would afford an opportunity of their being carried. They could only be discussed on the Second Reading.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
The Deputy's statement on the question of order is correct.
I want to point out that it is a weakness in procedure and the setting up of Selection Committees is only a farce if all their recommendations are not embodied in a Bill. If the Minister, in introducing his new Bill, embodied all the recommendations in it, he could also, of course, on the Committee Stage, move amendments to delete those that he objected to, but, at any rate, that would give an opportunity to the Dáil to discuss all the recommendations carried by the Select Committee. As matters stand, we cannot discuss recommendations not embodied in the Bill. I maintain that is a weakness in our procedure.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
The Deputy cannot compel the Minister to introduce sections in a Bill with which the Minister does not agree.
What is the use of a Select Committee then if all the recommendations are not carried out?
I think it would be well for the House to consider that it is a pure waste of time for Select Committees to deal with these matters if all their recommendations cannot come before the House: that nothing can come before the House except what the Minister chooses to bring before it.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
That is not the case.
Then am I to assume that Select Committees are useless unless the Minister agrees to all their recommendations?
Mr. HOGAN
The facts arc these: That a Select Committee was set up, and made twenty-five or thirty recommendations. A new Bill will be introduced, which will embody, say, twenty-five of the thirty recommendations. In view of that, does the Deputy consider that the labours of the Select Committee have been in vain?
They have been in vain as a Committee.
Was not that stated when they were sitting?
No.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
What Deputy Gorey desires is a decision of the House on certain matters about which he and the Minister are in disagreement. Is that correct?
Yes.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
There are several ways of getting that. One way the Deputy cannot get it is by compelling the Minister to put a matter into a Bill with which the Minister disagrees. There would be a greater weakness in procedure if that were the case.
I have not suggested that.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
That is what is being suggested. The Deputy can get a discussion on these matters. If he wants a decision he can get it by bringing in a Bill, or by putting down a motion of a particular kind. If Deputies are interested in getting a decision on a particular matter which concerns the House, and the peace, order and good government of the country, we can always find a method of getting that decision.
Mr. HOGAN
I do not want to let it pass that the Select Committee has been treated with disrespect. What has occurred is that the Committee which has been set up has made about thirty recommendations, some of them extremely important. I propose to introduce a very much extended Bill, introducing about twenty-five of these recommendations. It will then be easy for Deputies to move amendments to the Bill on the Committee Stage. I do not say that does not exclude them from putting in some amendment which may not be in order on the Bill. It is incorrect to say that we should condemn the whole Select Committee procedure because of the action I am taking in this matter. I am accepting four-fifths of the important findings of the Committee, and I propose to introduce a new Bill embodying them, and that will extend the power to introduce amendments.
Two key principles, one of which was passed by the Committee, will not be introduced into the Bill. Therefore, when the Bill is in Committee we will be precluded from dealing with this principle.
Mr. HOGAN
From dealing with the two?
One certainly was defeated, and one was partially accepted, that is to say, an important portion of it. I think some of these decisions of the Committee which the Minister stands by were—well, I cannot discuss it, but I imagine some of the members of the Committee were misled by the unsound reasoning of the Minister.
I want to point out that though the Minister has said he is going to introduce a Bill embodying twenty-five out of thirty recommendations of the Committee, it is within the Minister's power, according to the procedure laid down, to introduce only five out of the thirty. If he happens to deal with the twenty-five recommendations it is only by a chance. I maintain that the procedure of appointing a Select Committee at all is practically a waste of time. In fact, it only amounts to an advisory committee, the recommendations of which the Minister may or may not take, despite the fact that the recommendations are carried by a majority of the Committee. I suggest that procedure is not helping the Dáil.
Mr. HOGAN
I wonder how many advisory committees will be set up if the Minister has to accept every recommendation made?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
Every committee is an advisory committee, and the Dáil, when it comes to deal with the recommendations, may reject every single one of the proposals made. Not only may the Minister say "I do not agree with the Committee," but any Deputy can stand up and say "I do not agree with the Committee." Deputies may argue about it, but the great value of a Committee is that members get closer to one another and can argue out a matter of details better than in the House. Deputy Heffernan wants a decision on certain points, and a procedure can be outlined for Deputy Heffernan which will enable him to get a decision. I do not know what the Deputy wants to have decided, but I know that procedure can be found for getting a decision on a matter that concerns the House.
Yes, but not if not within the Bill.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
Of course not.
May I ask whether the report of the Committee will be available for the House?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
Yes, it will be circulated as soon as it is printed.
With reference to a remark by Deputy Gorey, may I say that I never found myself in the unenviable position of being led or misled by any Minister?
Mr. HOGAN
As a matter of historical accuracy it is right to say that Deputy Gorey said he did not understand the meaning of an amendment he was voting for.
I do not know if anybody, including the Minister himself, understood it. There was a juggle of words, and I do not think any member understood it.
Can we have a discussion on the Report of the Committee before the Second Reading of this Bill?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
Certainly.
Shall I have to give notice to that effect?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
I take it that if a desire is expressed for a discussion on this Report the Minister will suggest a day.
Mr. HOGAN
I suggest it makes Select Committee procedure a farce if this is to be discussed again. We have discussed the matter for a fortnight. I am extending the Bill to a very great extent indeed by accepting the recommendations of this Committee. I propose now to introduce a new Bill, and to withdraw the Bill introduced six months ago, bringing it up in Committee and extending it so that a number of amendments that would not be relevant to the last Bill would be relevant to the new Bill. I think under the circumstances to have a discussion on the Report of the Committee, which, for all practical purposes, can take place on the Bill, is an abuse of the machinery for Select Committees.
Would the Minister say that these amendments rejected by him can be discussed when the Bill is before the House?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
Yes, on the Second Stage.
That is, the amendments rejected by the Minister in Select Committee can be discussed on the Committee Stage of the new Bill?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
No.
That is what I wanted to know. We cannot, therefore, really discuss all the amendments that were before the Committee when we come to the Committee Stage of the Bill.
And which were accepted by the Committee.
Mr. HOGAN
Of course that is not a question for me. I am not at all clear that the amendments would be relevant to the Bill I am introducing, but that is not a matter for me at all.
Would it not be in order for any Deputy to move that the Report be approved of paragraph by paragraph ?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
I do not think so.
Mr. HOGAN
Is it the idea to hold up this Land Bill for three years?
Not necessarily, unless the Minister wishes.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
The Report cannot be discussed paragraph by paragraph. The real difficulty is that Deputies want a decision on certain matters, and I have told them three times that if they really want a decision I can furnish them with a method of getting it.
Can the House go into Committee on the paragraphs?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
No.
I have already suggested that we discuss the Report of the Committee before we have the Second Reading at all, and I want to put that forward in concrete form for your approval. With regard to the Second Reading of the Bill, my opinion is that you can preclude discussion on certain aspects of the Land Acts which are outside the ambit of the Bill when it comes before the House. Can we discuss every possible question in connection with land legislation on the Second Reading of this Bill?
Mr. HOGAN
Would you, sir, also answer this? In addition, can you be on both sides of every question that is discussed?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
The Minister brings in an amending Land Bill. A Deputy may say: "I do not like this amending Bill because the amendments I want are so and so and so and so." He can then discuss matters which are not in the Bill. But as soon as the Bill has obtained a Second Reading the House is precluded, in Committee and afterwards, from discussing anything but what is in the Bill and things which may be relevantly put into the Bill. But we might, of course, take a discussion on the Report of this Committee if Deputies like. I think we ought to leave the matter over until to-morrow, and perhaps Deputies would consult with me and get the matter clearer.
I am pretty clear in my own mind as to how we stand, but I am in favour of having a discussion on this question before the Second Reading.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
But, presumably not until after the Report has been circulated.
Mr. HOGAN
I take it that it is clear I am withdrawing my Bill and introducing a new Bill, with the consent of the House.
I suggest that there is a possibility of discussing the Report of the Committee, even on the motion made by the Minister for leave to withdraw the Bill.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
The Report will be printed and circulated. It will not, I think, in its printed form be in the hands of Deputies before next Monday. If the President, therefore, is agreeable, we could take a motion next week in Government time.
Mr. HOGAN
To what effect?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
That the Report be considered. It will only be a formal motion, remember. I do not want Deputies to be misled by any kind of false reasoning. It will only be to enable the report of the work of the Committee to be considered.
Would it enable Deputy Heffernan to make a speech?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE
It would.
Ordered: That the Report of the Select Committee to consider the Land Bill (No. 2), 1926, be printed and circulated and that the Report be considered on Tuesday, 14th December.