I move:
"That the Bill be received for Final consideration."
ORDUITHE AN LAE. - CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT NO. 2) BILL, 1926—REPORT STAGE.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
The Minister, when this Bill was previously before the Dáil, gave expression to the hope that some Deputy would test the feeling of the House, after a discussion had taken place, as to whether it was desirable that such a Bill should be inserted in the Constitution, and I am very glad indeed to respond to that request. Whether he had put it forward or not I would have endeavoured to ask the House to hesitate and to declare its will on the matter by a vote. I think it is a very regrettable procedure that we should seek to assert in the Constitution, the fundamental law of the country, a measure of this kind, that is clearly, as I think, intended to meet a temporary situation and that is not required as the result of faults that have been exhibited in the present system. It is not remedying any fault that has been experienced, but is to meet what might appear to some to be a risk that a person who might be elected Ceann Comhairle in Dáil Eireann in the future will not be qualified by his previous experience to carry on the work satisfactorily, and in the making of that provision in the Constitution it is intended to alter the character of the representative assembly, Dáil Eireann. As has already been argued, the effect of passing this measure will be to introduce as one of the Deputies of Dáil Eireann in the future a person who has not been elected, is not responsible to any electorate, has a different standing in the House from every other Deputy, and yet has all the privileges of every other Deputy, if, perchance, he were not elected by the House as its Chairman. Under such a provision in the Constitution it would be possible for a member of the House who has not been elected and is not responsible to any electorate, to hold office in the Executive Council. It would even be possible for such a person to be President. While one might say it is an unlikely eventuality, still, we are dealing with constitutional forms, and we ought not to allow such a thing, which is obviously undesirable, to be possible.
The effect of the introduction of this provision into the Constitution is to alter the character of something less than 1 per cent. of this House. It is making that radical alteration without any real cause shown. There is no necessity for it; there has not been the experience which imposes the obligation to make the change. It is to meet what I think is a temporary desire, and may have to be altered if there are new changes, as there might well be, in the general electoral system. We are not merely dealing with an alteration of the electoral law; we are dealing with a change in the Constitution, and I am forced to object to making a change in the Constitution unless there is a necessity arising out of experience; unless there is need shown arising out of experience. We are not in this Bill dealing with changes which are shown to be necessary by experience in the working out of the practical details of the Constitution, but we are introducing something entirely new and, as I think, quite uncalled for. I therefore intend to ask the Dáil to vote against the motion for the passing of this Bill, and I hope all those who are conservative-minded in regard to changes of the Constitution, and those who have some regard for maintaining the representative character of the House, will support the rejection of the Bill.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
Throughout the stages of this Bill the Deputy, with what I might refer to as damnable iteration, stressed that this Bill was not based on any permanent factor, that it was simply an expression of a passing desire. On the Second Stage and in Committee on the Bill, I endeavoured to rid his mind of that obsession and to show that it was based on a recognition of the permanent facts, on a recognition of the position in which the Ceann Comhairle is placed politically, as from the date of his election; based on the fact that, owing to the existence here of a Proportional Representation system of election, that peculiar form of special provision which is made to meet the circumstances of the case in Great Britain cannot be made here, even supposing it were desirable. The question of whether it is desirable or not is one that could be discussed at great length. In Great Britain the constituency is in effect, in the result, disfranchised over a long period of years, because the heads of Parties agree between themselves not to contest what is called the Speaker's Seat. The Speaker, from the nature of his position, cannot adequately represent in the Parliament that constituency, and the net result is that that constituency is not in fact represented. That is the provision there to meet the fact that when a man is called from the Assembly to preside over the Assembly, he is in fact divorced from politics, in the ordinary acceptance of that term; he is called from the service of his constituency to the service of the Parliament. The Parliament becomes, so to speak, his constituency, his charge and his interest.
Owing to the existence here of Proportional. Representation, the special provision that is made in Great Britain to meet that case cannot be put into operation. Where you have a constituency returning four or five members, you can make no provision by agreement between the heads of Parties or the Whips of Parties that would ensure the return of the Speaker in the way in which it is ensured in Great Britain. What then is the position of the Speaker, who has presided, let us say, over Parliament for five years? He has to face a constituency in competition with people who have throughout that period been free to nurse the constituency, as the phrase goes; to attend to its requirements, to voice its wishes in the Dáil, to make controversial political speeches before the electorate, and so on. Is that a proper position? You want as the presiding Chairman of your Assembly a person who will hold the scales fairly impartially between the political Parties represented here. Is that consistent with active participation in cut-and-thrust party politics? If it is not, should not that fact be recognised and provision made to meet it? We cannot make the provision that is made in Great Britain because of certain circumstances here, because of the existence of Proportional Representation here. Consequently, we have to devise our own provision to meet it, and the provision embodied in this Bill is not based on anything transitory, on anything nonpermanent. It is based on a recognition of the fundamental permanent aspects of the question. I am quite sure I have not convinced the Deputy—I did not expect to—I am not of that over-sanguine disposition. I have not made myself any clearer on this Stage than I tried to do on Second Reading and in Committee. I do not think I have been able to invent anything new to say on the merits of the issue.
Damnable iteration!
Mr. O'HIGGINS
I simply have to follow the Deputy's bad example and indulge in damnable iteration.
took the Chair.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 39; Níl, 27.
Tá
- Earnán Altún.
- Earnán de Blaghd.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Seoirse de Bhulbh.
- Séamus de Burca.
- John J. Cole.
- Bryan R. Cooper.
- Liam Mac Cosgair.
- Séan McCurtain.
- Patrick McGilligan.
- Eoin MacNéill.
- Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
- Liam Mac Sioghaird.
- James Sproule Myles.
- Martin M. Nally.
- John T. Nolan.
- Peadar O hAodha.
- Risteárd O Conaill.
- Conchubhar O Conghaile.
- Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
- Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean Uí
- Dhrisceóil.
- James Dwyer.
- Osmond Grattan Esmonde.
- Desmond Fitzgerald.
- John Hennigan.
- Seosamh Mac a' Bhrighde.
- Séamus O Dóláin.
- Peadar O Dubhghaill.
- Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
- Eamon O Dúgáin.
- Aindriú O Laimhín.
- Fionán O Loingsigh.
- Risteárd O Maolchatha.
- Máirtín O Rodaigh.
- Seán O Súilleabháin.
- Andrew O'Shaughnessy.
- Mícheál O Tighearnaigh.
- Caoimhghín O hUigín.
- Liam Thrift.
Níl
- Daniel Breen.
- John Conlan.
- Séamus Eabhróid.
- Seán de Faoite.
- Séamus Mac Cosgair.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
- Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
- Patrick McKenna.
- Risteárd Mac Liam.
- Tomás de Nógla.
- W. Norton.
- Ailfrid O Broin.
- Tomás O Conaill.
- Aodh O Cúlacháin.
- Liam O Daimhín.
- Eamon O Dubhghaill.
- Mícheál O Dubhghaill.
- Seán O Duinnín.
- Donnchadh O Guaire.
- Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
- Seán O Laidhin.
- Domhnall O Mocháin.
- Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
- Tadhg O Murchadha.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
- William A. Redmond.
Tellers.—Tá: Deputies Dolan and Sears. Níl: Deputies O'Connell and Morrissey.
Motion declared carried.
Fifth Stage ordered for Thursday, 27th January.