Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Mar 1927

Vol. 19 No. 6

ORDERS OF THE DAY. - MONEY RESOLUTION—ELECTRICITY SUPPLY BILL, 1927.

MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

I move:—

Chun críche aon Achta a rithfar sa tSiosón so chun socrú do dhéanamh chun geiniúint, iompar, roinnt agus soláthar leictreachais ar fuaid Shaorstáit Eireann d'ath-chóghléasa agus do regleáil agus go háirithe chun socrú do dhéanamh chun leictreachas do gheiniúint sna hoibreacha do dhin an Stát fé Acht Leictreachais na Sionainne, 1925, agus chun an leictreachas san d'iompar, do roinnt, agus do sholáthar agus, chun na críche sin, chun socrú do dhéanamh chun na hoibreacha san do bhainistí, do riara, agus do stiúrú d'fhonn iad d'oibriú go héifeachtúil agus go heconomiciúil agus i gcóir nithe eile a bhaineas leis na nithe sin no a eireoidh le n-a linn no asta agus chun an tAcht Leictreachais sin na Sionainne, 1925, do leasú, go bhfuil sé oiriúnach a údarú—

(a) go n-íocfar amach as an bPrímh-Chiste no as a thora fáis roimh-íocanna a déanfar fén Acht san agus nách mó ar fad ná suim Tri Milliún agus Céad Míle Punt, agus

(b) go gcuirfar ar an bPrímh-Chiste no ar a thora fáis muirear colann agus ús aon urrúsanna a tabharfar amach chun iasachtaí d'fháil fén Acht san.

That for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to make provision for the reorganisation and regulation of the generation, transmission, distribution and supply of Electricity throughout Saorstát Eireann and in particular to make provision for the generation of Electricity in the works constructed by the State under the Shannon Electricity Act, 1925, and for the transmission, distribution and supply of such electricity and for that purpose to make provision for the management, administration and control of the said works with a view to the efficient and economic operation thereof, and for other matters incidental to or arising in the course of the matters aforesaid or in connection therewith and to amend the said Shannon Electricity Act, 1925, it is expedient to authorise—

(a) payment out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof of advances made under such Act not exceeding in the aggregate the sum of Three Millions One Hundred Thousand Pounds, and

(b) the charge upon the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof of the principal and interest of any securities issued for the purpose of borrowing under such Act.

It is proposed by this Money Resolution to provide £3,100,000, that £3,100,000 to cover two separate purposes. As far as £600,000 of it is concerned, it is to enable the Electricity Supply Board to pay interest and arrears of interest on the money expended on the works constructed under the Shannon Electricity Act, 1925, and handed over to the Board by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. It is also to meet the expenses of operation, repairs, maintenance, etc., during the early years when the undertaking is still unremunerative. The time limit fixed is up to 31st December, 1932.

The other portion of the £3,100,000— £2,500,000—is provided to enable the Board to carry out its functions of promoting the distribution of current, wiring of houses, purchase of electrical equipment, loans to undertakers and so forth. Deputies will remember that the Shannon Act, 1925, provided a sum of £5,210,000 for the constructional works and also for the meeting of interest and interest charges and losses in the early years of the undertaking. This sum of £600,000, which is being provided again, is not in addition to the sum that was provided for interest and losses in the early years of the undertaking in the first Act. It is, in a sense, a re-vote of that money, and in no circumstances will the cost of construction, plus the interest charges and losses in the early years, exceed the £5,210,000 provided for in the original Act. This £600,000, or so much of it as may be available, will be paid to the Board. There will be a division of liability between the Board and the Minister, because the responsibility of the Board for interest and arrears of interest will only begin when the undertaking, or part of the undertaking, is handed over to the Board.

Mr. HEWAT

Will the Minister explain why it is necessary for him to make provision for £3,100,000, seeing that the fact is, as stated by him, that £600,000 of that has already been provided for. Would the Minister also give us more detailed particulars of what that sum of £2,500,000 is intended to cover? Is it purely a sum to be given the Board for the purpose of private installations, or what part of the main system is going to be paid for out of that sum by the Board? The Bill does not give us any information on these points. The proper time to ask for this information is, I think, now when the Minister is asking the House to authorise the handing over of a sum of £2,500,000 without practically any explanation of what it is to be ear-marked for.

MINISTER for INDUSTRY and COMMERCE (Mr. McGilligan)

The sum of £2,500,000 is being ear-marked as the financial resolution indicates. The Shannon Electricity Supply Bill, 1927, gives the Board power to buy out existing statutory private undertakings and to pay compensation therefor. Part of its duty will also be to pay compensation for such of the unauthorised privately-owned concerns as may seem hereafter to be fit subjects for compensation. In addition to that, the Board may provide—in the ordinary course of events it will have to provide —moneys for the wiring of houses. The Board will also have to get in stocks of electrical appliances, and it will have to institute showrooms and salerooms. The Board will have to pay the expenses of the working of the Shannon plant and the expenses of the distribution of the electricity in so far as the Board has control of electricity in the country at various dates hereafter. For those purposes the sum of £2,500,000 is required.

The sum of £600,000 is, as the Minister for Finance explained, really a re-vote, the position being that under the Shannon Act of 1925 the sum of £5,210,000 was voted; the experts' calculation was that the works should be built for a sum which we are taking at £4,600,000 but which really was about £4,525,000. A sum of about £675,000 was set apart to meet interest-charges on the moneys expended on the plant and for losses of working during the unremunerative years which, they state, should be up to the end of the year 1932. It is not possible to apportion that sum of £600,000, in round figures, because one cannot foresee how much of the charges for interest will have to be met by me in my capacity as constructor of the works and how much will have to be met by the Board which, at different times, will take over portions of the Shannon plant as completed and will become liable for the interest on the moneys expended on the portions of the plant taken over. One cannot estimate how much of that £600,000 will be paid by my Department and how much will fall to be paid by the Board. Deputies will notice that there is an amendment to Section 11. sub-section (2), indicating that the sum of £600,000 is the maximum under this particular second sub-section and that it is phrased in this way: "such sums as with the said sums advanced... amounts to the sum of five millions two hundred and ten thousand pounds..." We would describe it more accurately if we could describe it more accurately but it is not possible to say what portions of the plant will be handed over and what interest-charges will be met by advances made to the Shannon Fund and operated on by me and on the other hand what moneys will have to be paid by the Board when the Board takes over. The sum of £600,000 is the nearest approximation we can get to the figure required for interest and for losses on working, and that sum cannot further be apportioned as to moneys that will be paid out under the auspices of the Department of Industry and Commerce and the moneys that will be paid out afterwards under the auspices of the Board.

The Minister for Finance made a statement which might be wrongly interpreted—that under no circumstances would the moneys come to more than £5,210,000. Nobody can, at this time, state what unanticipated underground difficulties may be encountered—difficulties as regards excavation and troubles of that sort. What we are keeping to definitely is this: it was estimated that the works could be built for a certain sum, to which there had to be added interest and allowance for losses on working in the early years. I am still binding myself to that. If that sum is to be increased, it will have to be done by coming to this House and making a case for it. I am not trying to get extra moneys under this Bill to cover a deficiency that I had not foreseen in the moneys already supplied. The original sum of £5,210,000 is being kept to. I consider it would be my duty as soon as it became clear to me that that sum was going to be increased to come to the Dáil and ask for further moneys. That stage has not been reached.

Mr. HEWAT

It seems to me that the matter has been rather complicated. The manner in which it has been dealt with has contributed to the complication. Perhaps it is necessary to deal with it in that way. But the apportionment as between the original sum of £5,000,000 odd that was voted and the £610,000 is merely, according to the explanation of the Minister, a departmental transfer. It would strike one that there was no necessity for voting twice this £600,000 under the circumstances. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, in supplementing what the Minister for Finance stated, gave us an explanation of the £2,500,000 which is to be placed at the disposal of the new Board. But he dealt with the question in a very general way. I should like to ask if the sum of £2,500,000 is a haphazard guess at what will be required or is there an estimate of what the various things under this section are going to cost. There is, we are told, provision for private wiring and various other operations, but no definite amounts are set down. Surely the Minister does not come to the Dáil at this stage to ask for a vote of £2,500,000 to a Board, to administer a service which is to be handed over to it, without having more definite details.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Obviously, I have some idea of the amounts that will be placed for the different purposes. But I wonder does Deputy Hewat think that I am really so green as to come here and state, for instance, that so much is being set aside as compensation for existing undertakers? That amount would be absorbed immediately. There would be a meeting to divide the spoils.

Mr. HEWAT

I was only trying to draw the Minister's views. The Minister has safeguarded himself well, because nobody knows what he is going to pay in compensation.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Is not that the proper situation?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Would it not be desirable that we should be given an estimate of the total cost of transmission when the scheme is established. I think it was not the intention to transmit power to towns of less than 500 population. Has any estimate been made of the cost of transmission? As regards wiring, will all the cost of distribution and wiring be borne by the Board, in the first place? Will the individual householder, in getting in the electricity, be expected to put up the capital sum or will there be a system of gradual payments spread over a period?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

To answer the last question first, the Board has power to provide lines, wiring apparatus and all the rest, and to make such terms and conditions as may seem to them proper. That section is specially designed to cover the wiring of houses and the spreading of payments over a number of years. Of course that facility will not be given to everybody. The circumstances of the individual will be looked into when the Board proceeds to the wiring of houses. And, remember, the Board has also power to allow that particular facility to undertakers operating under it.

As to the point regarding transmission, there can be no estimate of the cost of transmission until one knows what transmission lines are going to be built. One will not be able to determine the transmission system to be built until there is a clearer calculation as to the demand. Obviously, lines are not going to be extended to districts which would clearly prove to be unremunerative. There can be no clear cut statement on this question of the cost of transmission. I stated on the Second Reading of this Bill that about a year hence I could give a fairly accurate statement as to the areas to which the transmission system would run and the cost of erecting that system. But I am not, obviously, in a position to do that now, when we have only embarked on the building of one circuit out of the four circuits.

Mr. HEWAT

The conclusion we must come to is that, after a period of two years, the Minister comes to us and asks for a vote of £2,500,000, which is purely a hotch-potch sum. It might as well be £5,000,000 or £10,000,000, so far as any allocation of the amount is concerned.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That is a complete misunderstanding of what I said. I said I had a pretty good idea of the amounts. I am assisted in that idea by the fact that people who were looking for the concession made estimates of what it would cost. I am not going to give that calculation to the Dáil, and I think it would be quite unfair to ask me. I ask the Dáil to consider the effect of stating the amount of money allocated to the Board for compensation purposes. It is clear what would happen the moment that was stated. You would have a definite meeting of those likely to be compensated, as the phrase goes, in order to divide the spoils. We are not going to give them any indication of that type.

Mr. HEWAT

That is a further intimation that this is such a secret scheme in its operations that even the members of the House as a whole are not to get any information at all.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Any information which they unreasonably ask—no.

Resolution put and declared carried.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Resolution as passed in Committee reported.

Question—"That the Dáil agrees with the Committee in this Resolution"—put and agreed to.