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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 31 Mar 1927

Vol. 19 No. 7

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - BARROW DRAINAGE BILL, 1927—THIRD STAGE.

The Dáil went into Committee.
SECTION 1.
(1) In this Act the expression "the Commissioners" means the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland;
the expression "the counties concerned" means the counties of Wicklow, Kildare, Leix, Offaly, Carlow, and Kilkenny.

I move: "In sub-section (1), line 19, to delete the word ‘Wicklow.'" The people of Wicklow are in favour of the scheme to drain the Barrow and are willing to contribute their State quota to it. They do not, however, consider that the drainage of the Barrow would be of any benefit to the county, and they do not, therefore, think that the county should be included in the Bill amongst the counties concerned.

I am surprised that Deputy Byrne should try to debar Wicklow from contributing towards this great national scheme. It is true that the county at large will not be benefited by the scheme, but certainly a large extent of land in that county will be benefited. One of the tributaries of the Barrow is the River Griece, which rises in Wicklow and which does some injury along the border between Kildare and Wicklow. In that respect it is only fair that County Wicklow should contribute. I have seen it stated on good authority that the drainage of the Barrow will have a beneficial effect on the health of the inhabitants of Kildare and Wicklow. In view of these considerations I think the amendment should be withdrawn.

As the scheme is not before the House, nobody is in a position, except, perhaps, those who have an inner knowledge of the intentions of the Board of Works, to know whether the scheme will include Wicklow, or the catchment area of that county. Deputy Byrne should wait until the scheme is produced and until an inquiry is held, and he could then come forward on behalf of the people of Wicklow and oppose the scheme, if he thinks fit.

If we accept the amendment, it would really be deciding in advance that Wicklow would not derive any benefit from this scheme. If it does not derive benefit, it would not have to contribute anything, but if it does, it will have to contribute just as the other counties have in proportion to benefit derived.

Why should Wicklow as a county be asked to contribute if there are only four miles of area to be benefited? If we wait until the inquiry is held we would be too late to put down amendments. The people in this area are naturally nervous about special rates. There is an old souvenir from the Grand Jury days of 2s. 2d. in the £ for the upkeep of a so-called tramway, and if there was a further rate now imposed, there would, I am afraid, be a large number of people from Wicklow placed in Mountjoy, as they could not pay further rates.

I was about to submit a proposal in regard to a scheme of drainage for the upper regions of the River Griece to the County Councils of Wicklow and Kildare, but I was advised not to do so until it was found whether the River Griece had been dealt with in connection with the Barrow Drainage. That would show that Wicklow is concerned with this scheme.

If an area of only four miles is affected, the county-at-large charge would be very small. The county would have to contribute in proportion to the lands benefited.

The people interested will have an opportunity of making their protest later in a more effective way than they could do here.

The people of Wicklow are, as I pointed out, in favour of the drainage of the Barrow, but the county council desired an amendment to be put down in view of the fact that they will not derive any benefit from the scheme. Consequently, if they do not benefit they do not want to be asked to pay. If any land is benefited, and if it is not able to meet the demands put upon it, there would be a county-at-large charge.

I oppose the amendment. If the people in the counties which are not going to get any direct benefit are always going to retard progress in regard to a scheme of this kind, which will be of great benefit to the public health as well as to the landowners, there will be no scheme.

We are not objecting to the scheme.

Amendment put and negatived.

Question—"That Section 1 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.

The effect of Deputy Davin's amendment which is to delete sub-section (3), an amendment which should really be to Section 2, would be to increase the charge on the State funds, but I think he made his point on the Money Resolution.

Yes, and the Minister is prepared to meet it.

Sections 2, 3, 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

SECTION 6 (2).

The Commissioners shall publish such notices, receive such objections, and hold such inquiries (if any) in respect of a draft substituted scheme or a draft additional scheme prepared by them under this section as they shall think proper, and shall present such draft additional scheme or draft substituted scheme, when finally settled by them, to the Minister for Finance for confirmation.

I move: "In sub-section (2), page 6, line 10, to delete the words ‘additional scheme or draft substituted' and substitute therefor the words ‘substituted scheme or draft additional.'" This is merely a drafting amendment.

Question—"That Section 6 as amended stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 7 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 8 (4).
Sections 69 to 83 of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, shall apply to the compensation payable by the Commissioners and to the conveyances of lands, premises, and rights to the Commissioners under this Act, and for the purposes of such application the Commissioners shall be deemed to be the promoters of the undertaking.

I move:—

In sub-section (4), page 7, to insert immediately before sub-section (4) a new sub-section as follows:—

"(4) When compensation is being assessed in pursuance of this section in respect of an interference with a navigation regard shall be had to any benefit to such navigation resulting or which may result from the deepening of the water of such navigation, the improvement of the supply of water thereto or otherwise by reason of the execution of the works under the scheme."

That amendment is introduced in pursuance of a promise I made to Deputy Davin on Second Reading.

I find it very difficult to understand, especially after the speech of the Minister for Finance, why provision was not made for this amendment in the Bill as originally introduced. We have only heard this evening from the Minister for the first time that the scheme is to be on the Meyer-Peter basis, making provision for the deepening of the river. That being within the knowledge of the Commissioners of the Board of Works, the Parliamentary Secretary, and the Minister, I cannot understand why this provision was not made in the original Bill. Anyone who knows anything about the condition of the river knows that for the last three or four years, at any rate, it has had the effect of reducing the carrying capacity of the boats. Naturally any scheme making provision for the deepening of the river would increase the carrying capacity of the boats, and that should be taken into account when compensation is being assessed. The longer we live the more we learn, and the fact that the Parliamentary Secretary has now introduced this amendment is proof that intervention of this kind and questions, though it may take a long time, will bring out the whole basis upon which the scheme is based. The amendment is a proper one. The people who benefit by the improvement in navigation should contribute their share in proportion to the benefits derived.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 8, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
Section 9 agreed to.
SECTION 10.
Sub-section (1)—When and so soon as all the works to be executed under the scheme have been completed the Commissioners shall prepare and publish a draft award showing either in the body thereof or by means of appropriate maps, drawings, plans, sections, and schedules annexed thereto the following matters—
(a) in general terms, the lands drained or improved and the works executed pursuant to the scheme, and
(b) the particular lands actually drained or improved, the rated occupiers of such lands, and the several quantities of such lands occupied by such rated occupiers respectively, and
(c) the respective annual values at the date of the confirmation of the scheme of the said several quantities of the lands so drained or improved, and the amounts by which such annual values are respectively increased by the execution of the drainage works, and
(d) the proportions in which the several quantities of the said lands so drained or improved in each of the counties concerned are to be liable to contribute to the drainage rate made under this Act by the council of that county, and
(e) the total increase in each of the counties concerned in the annual value of the lands in that county drained or improved by the drainage works, and
(f) the proportions in which the counties concerned are to be liable to contribute to the repayment of the advance by the Commissioners and to the cost of the maintenance of the drainage works, such proportions being the proportions which the total increases aforesaid in each of such counties respectively bear to the aggregate amount of all such total increases.

I move—

In sub-section (1) (c), page 8, lines 24 and 25, to delete the words "at the date of the confirmation of the scheme" and substitute therefor the words "immediately before the commencement of the works."

I think the meaning of the amendment is pretty obvious. The works have been in progress for some time, and some benefit will follow from the works that have been already carried out.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 10, as amended, stand part of the Bill"— put and agreed to.
Sections 11, 12 agreed to.
SECTION 13.

As regards Section 13, on the question of the constitution of the Barrow Drainage Board, we had an amendment proposed by Deputy Byrne, objecting in advance on behalf of the people of Wicklow to something that may never happen. Supposing the Wicklow people, or any portion of them, are eventually called on to pay any charge for the carrying out of this useful work are we to understand that Wicklow will have representation on the Drainage Board, although there will be no charge as regards them beyond the ordinary taxpayers' charge for the carrying out of the work?

You should not be anticipating.

I think it is a question that ought to be answered. The Barrow Drainage Board will have a very heavy responsibility. If the people of Wicklow are not called upon to bear any portion of the charge I would object to representation being given to Wicklow.

We are advised that Wicklow will derive some benefit, and therefore will be entitled to representation.

In case it does not, and that under the scheme that will be eventually sanctioned by the Minister, Wicklow will not be included or called upon to bear any portion of the charge, are we, under these circumstances, to assume that Wicklow will be given representation on the Board?

We will consider that when it arises, but I do not think it will arise.

Question—"That Section 13, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
Section 14 agreed to.
SECTION 15.
Sub-section (2)—The accounts of the Barrow Drainage Board shall be separately kept and shall be audited by an auditor appointed by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health and the following enactments, that is to say, sections 11 to 15 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1871, sub-section (2) of Section 63 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, Sections 20, 21 and 22 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1902, and Section 61 of the Local Government Act, 1925 (No. 5 of 1925), as amended or adapted by or under any subsequent enactment shall apply to the audit and auditor of the accounts of the Barrow Drainage Board in the same manner as such enactments as so amended or adapted apply to the audit and auditor of the accounts of the public bodies specified therein.

I move:—

"In sub-section (2), page 10, line 36, to insert immediately before the word ‘of' the words ‘and 17 and 18.'"

That is to apply to the provision of Sections 17 and 18 of the Local Government Act of 1871 for the audit of the accounts of the Barrow Drainage Board.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 15, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 16.
(1) The Barrow Drainage Board may appoint all such officers and servants as the said Board may consider necessary for the purpose of the maintenance of the drainage works and the performance of the duties imposed on the said Board by this Act.
(3) Every officer and every servant of the Barrow Drainage Board appointed under this section shall receive such remuneration as may be determined by the Barrow Drainage Board with the approval of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health and the consent of the Minister for Finance.
(4) An officer or servant of the Barrow Drainage Board appointed under this section may be removed from his office as such officer or servant at any time by the Barrow Drainage Board with the sanction of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health.

I move—

In sub-section (1), page 10, lines 46 and 47, to delete the words "may appoint all such officers and" and substitute therefor the words "shall appoint such and so many officers as the Minister for Local Government and Public Health shall determine and may appoint such."

Under the Bill as drafted the Minister for Local Government had to approve of the appointment of every servant of the Drainage Board, including workmen paid by weekly wages. The amendment restricts that control so that it would not extend to ordinary workmen.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move—

"In sub-section (1) page 10, line 47, to insert immediately before the word "necessary" the words "to be."

That is a drafting amendment.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move—

In sub-section (1), page 10, line 47, to insert immediately before the word "necessary" the words "to be."

That is consequential on amendment 8.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move—

"In sub-section (4), page 11, to delete lines 1 and 2."

That is also consequential on amendment 8.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 16 as amended stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
Sections 17 and 18 put and agreed to.
SECTION 19.
(3) The Commissioners shall at or as soon as may be after the end of every local financial year examine into and report to the Minister for Finance as to the maintenance of the drainage works in that year, and if and whenever the Commissioners so report to the said Minister that the drainage works have been well and efficiently and economically maintained by the Barrow Drainage Board during the preceding local financial year, the said Minister shall, as soon as may be after receiving such report, pay out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas to the Barrow Drainage Board one moiety of the amount actually expended by the Barrow Drainage Board during such preceding local financial year in the maintenance of the drainage works.
(5) The Barrow Drainage Board may with the consent of the Minister for Finance and shall if so required by the said Minister at any time invest in such securities as may be approved of by the said Minister any surplus of the moneys paid to them under this section for the time being in their hands and shall accumulate the income of such investments by reinvesting the same, but may at any time with the consent of the said Minister realise and apply such investments or any part thereof or the income thereof towards defraying the cost of the maintenance of the drainage works.

I move—

"In sub-section (3), page 11, line 38, to delete the words ‘local financial year' and substitute therefor the words ‘of the said thirty-five local financial years.'"

The object of that amendment is to make it clear that the inspection by the Commissioners of the grants from the Government apply to the first thirty-five financial years.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move—

In sub-section (3), page 11, line 46, to insert immediately before the word "actually" the words "appearing on the audit of the relevant accounts to have been."

That amendment is introduced to make it clear that the money granted by the Government is expended as audited.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move:—

In sub-section (5), page 11, line 62, to insert immediately before the word "with" the words "(whether before or after the expiration of the said thirty-five local financial years)."

That is to enable the Drainage Board to use at the end of thirty-five years any funds which may have accumulated in their hands during those thirty-five years.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 19, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
Section 20 agreed to.
SECTION 21.
Sub-section (3) The Barrow Drainage Board shall defray the cost of the maintenance of the drainage works in every such local financial year out of the moneys paid to them under this section for that year.

I move—

In sub-section (3), page 13, to delete the words "for that year."

The effect of the amendment is to give the Drainage Board the necessary freedom to use the funds paid in one year for works done in another year.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 21, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 22.

Sub-section (1) of Section 22 definitely states that the rate is to be on the lands which are to be improved, and, therefore, I take it that if we conclude that land in Wicklow has been improved by the Barrow Drainage Scheme this will not apply to Wicklow.

That is so.

Does that mean that if water flows from the County Wicklow and floods land in Kildare that Kildare will have to pay its share for the draining of the Wicklow waters? I think that is not fair.

The right thing is to make the Wicklow people keep the water.

You cannot do that.

Sections 22, 23, 24 and 25 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

SECTION 26, SUB-SECTION (1).

(1) If and in so far as the scheme provides for the diversion, removal, or other interference with a public road or bridge the following provisions shall have effect, that is to say:—

(a) where the execution of the works specified in the scheme involves the closing of the road or bridge to traffic the Commissioners shall construct and shall maintain while such road or bridge is so closed to traffic a temporary road or bridge sufficient to carry traffic of such quantity and character as normally uses such road or bridge;

(b) the Commissioners shall at or before the completion of the works specified in the scheme either restore the road or bridge to its former condition or construct a new permanent road or bridge sufficient to carry the like amount (in quantity and character) of traffic as the original road or bridge was able to carry and not substantially less convenient in gradient and curve than such original road or bridge;

(c) when the Commissioners construct a permanent new bridge and such bridge confers substantially greater advantages on the public of any county or urban district than the original bridge, by affording an improved means of communication or otherwise, the Commissioners shall certify the cost of such new bridge and the Minister for Local Government and Public Health shall certify what part of such cost in his opinion ought reasonably to be borne by the council of such county or urban district, and thereupon a sum equal to the part so certified of such cost shall be raised by such council as part of the expenses of the maintenance of main county or urban roads (as the case may be) and shall be paid by such council to the Commissioners.

I beg to move—

In sub-section (1), page 14, line 37, to add at the end of paragraph (c) the words "and the payment of such sum shall be a purpose for which such council may borrow under the enactments relating to borrowing by such council."

That amendment gives the county council power to borrow any large sum which they might have to pay towards the improvement of a bridge.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 26, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 27.
(1) If and in so far as the scheme provides for the diversion, removal, or other interference with any railway or railway bridge the following provisions shall (subject to the provisions of this section) have effect, that is to say—
(a) where the execution of the works specified in the scheme involves the closing of the railway or railway bridge to traffic, the Commissioners shall construct and shall maintain while such railway or railway bridge is so closed to traffic a temporary railway or railway bridge sufficient to carry traffic of such quantity and character as normally uses such railway or railway bridge;
(b) the Commissioners shall at or before the completion of the works specified in the scheme either restore the railway or railway bridge to its former condition or construct a new permanent railway or railway bridge sufficient to carry the like amount (in quantity and character) of traffic as the original railway or railway bridge was able to carry and not substantially less convenient in gradient and curve than such original railway or railway bridge;
(c) if any doubt, dispute, or question shall arise as to whether the Commissioners, in the construction, maintenance, or restoration of any temporary or permanent railway or railway bridge pursuant to this section, have complied with the provisions of this section or as to whether a permanent new railway or railway bridge constructed by the Commissioners confers substantially greater advantages on the public of any county or urban district than the original railway or railway bridge, such doubt, dispute, or question shall be decided by the Minister for Industry and Commerce whose decision shall be final and conclusive.
(2) The Great Southern Railway Company may at the request of the Commissioners undertake the work of constructing and maintaining any temporary railway or railway bridge and of restoring any railway or railway bridge or of constructing any new permanent railway or railway bridge the construction and maintenance and the restoration or construction of which respectively are or is required by this section to be done by the Commissioners.
(3) The cost of any work undertaken and completed by the Great Southern Railway Company at the request of the Commissioners under this section shall be paid by the Commissioners as part of the expenses of carrying out the scheme, and if any dispute or question arises between the Great Southern Railway Company and the Commissioners as to the amount of such cost such dispute or question shall be decided by the Minister for Industry and Commerce whose decision shall be final and conclusive.

I move—

In sub-section (1) (c), page 15, line 8, to delete from the words "or as" to the word "bridge" in line 13.

This is to admit words which were inserted by mistake following the precedent of the previous sub-section. They have no application in this case, because a railway improvement is not held to confer any advantage on a particular county or urban district.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move—

In sub-sections (2) and (3), page 15, lines 16, 25 and 28, to delete the word "railway" and substitute therefor in each case the word "railways."

That is merely verbal.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 27, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
Sections 28, 29, 30, 31 and 32 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
SCHEDULE—PARAGRAPH 3.
3. The member appointed by each of the county councils of Carlow, Kilkenny, or Wicklow may, at the option of the appointing council, be or not be a member of such appointing council.

I move—

In page 17, paragraph 3, line 52, to delete the word "or" and substitute therefor the word "and."

This is simply a correction of a grammatical error.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That the Schedule, as amended, stand part of the Bill"— put and agreed to.
Title put and agreed to.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Bill reported with amendments. Fourth Stage fixed for Tuesday, 5th April.
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