Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Apr 1927

Vol. 19 No. 11

ACQUISITION AND DIVISION OF MEATH LANDS. - MOTION FOR A RETURN.

Mr. HALL

I move:—

That a Return be presented to the Dáil showing in connection with the acquisition and division of lands in County Meath:—(a) Names and number of estates acquired and allotted; (b) names and numbers of estates acquired and not yet allotted; (c) names and numbers at present the subject of negotiations by the Land Commission; (d) number of migrants allotted holdings in Meath and the area of land allotted to such migrants, and (e) the number of migrants the Land Commission at present propose to put in possession of holdings in County Meath, and on what estates it is proposed to plant such migrants.

If the Minister would say that he would be prepared to accept this I would be satisfied by formally moving the motion.

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE (Mr. Hogan)

This is a motion similar to that put down by Deputy Heffernan and discussed some time ago. I pointed out then that if I were to agree to give the information asked for, in the form in which it was asked for, I would really have to ask the Land Commission to give up land purchase and to concentrate on making returns. I pointed out that if that information were available for one Deputy for one county it would also have to be available for every Deputy for every other county; further, that it would change once a month and that a return made in the month of January would be out of date in the month of March, so that by a series of permutations and combinations we would have about 300 returns elaborated every year. It would take the Land Commission a very long time to prepare them, and I cannot agree to that. If it is any good to him I would give the Deputy the information he asks for under (a) and (b), but (c) would be very long.

Mr. HALL

That would not take me very far.

Mr. HOGAN

If this would placate him I would give him the number of migrants allotted holdings in Meath and approximately the area of land allotted to them all.

Mr. HALL

The Minister would not give the information asked for under (c)?

Mr. HOGAN

That would be very long: "Names and numbers at present the subject of negotiations by the Land Commission"—every estate in Meath that is the subject of negotiations of any kind. Besides, on that point, I do not think it would be right public policy to give them, because some of those cases are sub judice and I would have to pick and choose between them. Surely Deputies would agree that it would be wrong to make available to the public information in regard to places that will come before the Judicial Commissioner, to have them debated and discussed in the country, have the fact known that the Land Commission inspected a farm, attempted to acquire it, that the owner objected and that now it is before the Judicial Commissioner, the result being simply to ask for trouble in the way of meetings, protests, and so on, all over the country. I could not give that information.

Mr. HALL

I would not be satisfied unless I got the information asked for under every heading, but I would be prepared to give way on (c). What has principally prompted me to put down this motion is that during the past three and a half years I have been asking for information here relevant to estates in County Meath, and the position that existed there, and I repeatedly got the same replies. I put down question after question relative to one estate, though I was not dealing with one estate all the time. This is the first time in three and a half years that I have tabled a motion.

What has prompted me to put down this motion is this: that not very long ago, in the constituency I come from, a political convention was held. An organiser for a political party went down to that gathering and was able to read for those assembled a long, elaborate statement as to the immediate and future intentions of the Land Commission in the matter of dealing with a number of estates in the County Meath. Everything that he said has, so far, come true. He had information that I could not get.

The PRESIDENT

He was not an organiser—he was a prophet.

Mr. HALL

There is no use in trying to jibe the thing off in that way. I think it is wrong that an organiser for a political party was able to get information that a Deputy could not get.

The PRESIDENT

He could not.

Mr. HALL

I do not think that is fair to the people who sent me here. The week previous to this particular organiser going down to the County Meath I asked for information about two estates and could not get it, but on the following Sunday this man was able to come down to the county and there announce the intentions of the Land Commission with regard to these two estates. People in the County Meath interested in this matter asked me to table this Motion to try and get the required information for them. The Minister suggested it would cause inconvenience to the Land Commission if the information I ask for had to be prepared. I consider that a Deputy who tables a motion only once in a period of three and a half years asking for information of this kind is, as I claim to be, entitled to get it. From time to time I have put down questions asking when the Land Commission proposed to allot certain estates in their possession. The reply I always get is that the acquisition of these estates is under consideration. Despite that, an organiser can go down to the County Meath and announce at a political meeting what the Land Commission proposes to do with regard to certain of these estates. Not only is the organiser able to announce the intentions of the Land Commission, but he was able to name the day. There is a Deputy sitting on the Government Benches who is aware of the statement that was made at that particular gathering. He knows that the information was broadcasted to certain people of a political colour and that it was denied to other people.

Mr. HOGAN

That is not true.

Mr. HALL

It is, and I now say the statements were made by the organiser who attended the Cumann na nGaedheal Convention for County Meath. A Cumann na nGaedheal Deputy, sitting on the Government benches, is aware that the statement was made. It was published in the local papers the following week. The organiser made the statement on a Sunday, and on the following Tuesday the estates mentioned were divided. He was able to announce the actual day in one case on which a particular estate would be allotted. In the previous week I had a question down about the same estate, but could not get the information I sought. That is an extraordinary position. With regard to the motion, I am prepared to strike out the heading (c). With regard to the division of land in the County Meath, the people there have no objection to the migrants, but at the same time they do not want them coming in in such numbers as to "scrooge" out the people of Meath. In one particular case 515 acres of land in the County Meath have been acquired, and we are told that all that land is going to be allotted to migrants. The local applicants are not to get any of it. That is an extraordinary position. Where is the migrant in the West of Ireland who had 515 acres of land of the same value as these 515 acres in the County Meath? There is not a Deputy in the House who could point out such a man. It is said the rent will be approximately £2 15s. an acre. I do not think it is fair to have people hawked in and thrown in on the people of Meath in that way. I would like to know if it is the intention of the Land Commission to plant all Meath with migrants. They are coming in in such numbers that they are "scrooging" out the people of Meath who have just claims for allotments of land, evicted tenants and others of that kind. The Meath people are being shoved out and the others are getting allotments of land. I would like to know what are the intentions of the Government with regard to this. Is it that the lands of Meath are to be utilised to meet the needs of all the congests that there are in Ireland? Is it the Minister's intention to use the finances of the State for that purpose, and to give the people of Meath nothing in return? Every day in the week we have migrants coming in. If things are to go on like this, then there is the danger that the people of Meath may get up and cause confusion at election time. This is the first time in three and a half years that I have tabled a motion of this kind. I hold that as a member of the House I am entitled to get the information I seek on behalf of the people affected. I hope the Minister will agree to give it to me.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

I second the the motion.

Mr. HOGAN

It would be a very serious thing indeed if there was information available for the organisers of any political party that was not available for Deputies. I agree with the Deputy that there are a number of ways of getting this information. For instance, if I am asked a specific question about a particular estate and if I have the information I give it. It is another thing to be asked how many estates you have in a county, what you propose doing with them, and how many you propose to take up. It is extremely difficult to answer questions of that sort, and I could not ask the Land Commission to do it. If specific questions are asked about particular estates I am always ready to answer them if I have the information. I should say that on an average the Deputy asks sixteen or twenty questions every week.

Mr. HALL

And I get about twelve unsatisfactory replies.

Mr. HOGAN

I agree that the Deputy's figure is correct. He asks sixteen or twenty questions a week, and twelve of the replies would be regarded by him as unsatisfactory. That is because no one ever asks a question about an estate that has been divided, or at least very seldom. The questions put down usually relate to estates that are about to be divided, and Deputies are pretty useful at anticipation on that matter. The moment an estate is divided a question is usually asked about some other estate they think should be divided. They always try to get in front of the Land Commission in that way. The Deputy mentioned that a large number of migrants had been taken to the County Meath. Listening to the Deputy, one would think that practically all the people in Meath were being "scrooged" out, as he phrased it. If one were to take the Deputy literally, one would imagine that practically the whole of the County Meath had been acquired, that migrants were being put in possession of it, and that the people born in the county, farmers and others, were being gradually elbowed out. We have not gone as far as that. If the Deputy wants to get any information about any specific estate from the Land Commission, he can always get it. The attitude I have always taken up is to give information so far as I have it with regard to estates, regardless of what party the Deputy asking the question belongs to. It seems there is nothing which is regarded as such good news as Land Commission work and the division of estates.

I believe that if you had forward news with regard to land purchase matters that you could nearly organise a party in a week and beat anything that was ever put up politically. That is what I gather from the many requests I receive from Deputies and from all parts of the country. As a rule, I am pretty careful about giving information. In any event, such information as is available, is available as far as I can secure that, to every Deputy equally. The Land Commission have a difficult task and they try to deal with all parties equally. I do not deny that this is the first motion of the kind that the Deputy has put down. But if he has not put down a motion, he puts down at least three questions a day.

Mr. HALL

And gets two unsatisfactory replies.

Mr. HOGAN

The Deputy would be more likely to get specific answers about estates if he confined himself to one or two estates at a time, and asked specific questions about them. I am absolutely certain that no return that I could give the Deputy about the whole of the County Meath would give him more information than he is able to elicit every other day from me by way of questions. With regard to migrants, the policy of the Land Commission is to make any land available anywhere for that purpose available for migrants. Migrants are sent to various counties in the Free State, not only to the County Meath, but to other counties in the midlands, and even to some in the west. The reason why large numbers of migrants are sent to Meath is that there are large areas of untenanted land in Meath, and comparatively speaking, not nearly so much congestion there as there is in other counties. That policy will be continued. No estate is divided on migrants exclusively, so long as there are uneconomic holders adjoining or convenient to an estate, and so long as that particular estate is the only one in the county on which these uneconomic holders can be dealt with. There are very few congests in the County Meath, but there are large areas of untenanted land there.

Mr. HALL

Have you ever been through it?

Mr. HOGAN

I have, through some of it. Comparing it with Mayo, with the County Galway generally, with Leitrim, Kerry and parts of Clare, there are very few congests in the County Meath in proportion to the amount of untenanted land available and to be dealt with. We deal first with all congests on the spot. I think that is the proper policy to adopt.

I agree with the Deputy that migrants generally get better holdings than the ones they have left. That is only right. You cannot take a man from a farm in Mayo, with a poor law valuation of £150, and give him a farm in Meath of £150 valuation. It would not be anything like a fair exchange. He has to be compensated, first of all, for the dislocation that is caused by reason of the fact that you are taking him out of one county and putting him into another. Further, a £150-valuation holding in places like parts of Galway would be a better holding, front a great many points of view, than a £150-valuation holding in Meath. The holding in Meath would be much smaller. There would be more room for development on such a holding in Galway. The land would not be quite so good, but taking everything into account, any working farmer would prefer a £150-valuation holding in Galway, or any county in the West, to a holding of the same valuation in County Meath, and he would be a good judge. A holding in County Meath carries a very much higher annuity per acre than the holding he has left. For instance, an annuity of £150 on 150 Irish acres in County Galway would leave him in a much better position than, say, a £250 annuity on a 150-acre holding of tiptop Meath land. You have to take all these circumstances into account: the fact that you cannot buy land as cheaply, the fact that the land will be very much dearer, the fact that the land is of such quality that the valuation will be high, and that there will be only a small area for a certain valuation. Generally, you will find that, on paper at least, the migrant always gets a considerably better holding than he leaves, and that is right, because there are always big expenses when a man is removing from a certain district. His system of farming is suited to that district; he knows it well; he has the tradition of farming in the district; and he loses money, no matter how careful he is, by having to start anew on land of different quality. That has to be taken into account, and he has to get full compensation for it. I say that, in view of the fact that the Deputy might quote plenty of cases in which a migrant had what looked like a considerably better holding than the one he had left. I say that on the merits, even apart altogether from the necessity to give compensation for disturbance, if examined it will be found that a migrant is in no better position. In any event, he should get some extra compensation for disturbance than he does as a rule. I can give the Deputy, if that is any good, the information I suggested, but I could not give him any more—that is to say, (a), (b), and part of (d). With regard to the organiser, he probably was in the Dáil, and heard my answers to the questions which the Deputy had put down, and so was able to go down to Meath and give full information on every question and as to every estate in which they were interested.

Mr. HALL

I do not want the information offered by the Minister, because I have it. What I did want I am not getting. It is all very fine to jeer and sneer, and for the President to prompt. the Minister to say that in all probability the organiser was in the Dáil and heard the Minister's replies to my questions. That story is all very fine.

The PRESIDENT

I did not say that. What I said was: Would it suit the Deputy if the organiser were withdrawn?

Mr. HOGAN

The Deputy will have to give me full credit for that sally.

Mr. HALL

As far as the organiser is concerned, I do not want any Deputy to imagine that I just quoted that in order to endeavour to make a case. Anyone who reads the local papers in the constituency which I represent knows well that the statement of the organiser at that meeting as to the land division and the lands to be allotted must have taken him from half to three-quarters of an hour to read. He had information that I could not get. In one case, that of the Winchester estate, the land was divided a couple of days after he had given the information to his friends about it. I could not get the information for those who would probably be styled my friends four or five days before, but he could give the information the following Sunday about the day it was to be allotted. That is most unfair to me and to the people who sent me here. Even if I am supposed to be a back bencher, who does not count very much in the House as a member of the Labour Party, I am entitled to get the same facilities as any other Deputy, and I have not got them. The Minister stated that he has given me answers to questions. I have asked questions repeatedly and got replies that were of no use to me, and had no relation to the questions put. During the last fortnight or three weeks there were questions down in my name that I was very much interested in, and the Minister was not here to reply to them. I put a supplementary question to the Minister for Local Government, and he, of course, knew a lot about lands! That has happened repeatedly. I asked for information that I felt I was entitled to in all justice, and I should have got it, but I did not get it. Therefore, the people interested in these matters in Meath asked me to table this motion, and now I am not getting the information that these people require, although such information has repeatedly been given to other people because they are organisers or something like that in connection with the Minister's Party.

Motion declared lost.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.50 p.m. until Wednesday, 20th April, 1927.