Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 Jun 1927

Vol. 20 No. 3

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE No. 5—DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £41,358 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mharta, 1928, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Airgid, maraon le hOifig an Phághmáistir-Ghenerálta.

That a sum not exceeding £41,358 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1928, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Finance, including the Paymaster-General's Office.

Deputies will see that this Estimate does not differ very widely from the Estimate presented to the Dáil last year. There have been certain increases in personnel. There are four principals instead of three. There are twelve assistant principals instead of ten, and there has been an increase in the number of junior administrative offices. In part this increase is due to the setting up of the Tariff Commission and the work of the Public Appointments Commission. The work of the Tariff Commission occupied the whole time of one of the junior administrative officers and a considerable amount of the time of one of the assistant secretaries. The Public Appointments Commission occupies a substantial amount of the additional time of the other assistant secretary. The work of the Economy Committee, which was set up just before the dissolution, will occupy, for the next year or so, a great deal of the time of a junior administrative officer and also of an assistant principal. There is an increase in the staff of the Paymaster-General's office, and that is due to the work provided for under sub-head G, Repayment to the British Government for work done by the British Government actually in connection with the Teachers' Pension Fund.

It has been felt, for some time, that the condition of this fund, and its solvency required actuarial investigation. There is no one in this country capable of carrying out the actuarial investigation of the fund. Actuarial investigation in connection with National Health Insurance has been done for us by the British Government actuary. He has recently been doing work in this connection. It was considered that the most economical arrangement was to obtain his services for the teachers' fund, for the actual work involved a certain amount of spade work, and that involved an increase of staff in the current year.

I do not know whether I should deal with any general matters. Obviously, I might be talking about points in which Deputies are not particularly interested. I think it would be better if I allowed Deputies to open the discussion on such general matters as they think best, and that I should deal with them by way of reply.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

There are one or two matters I would like to raise under this Vote. One of them is the position with regard to subscribers to the Dáil loan, who have not been able to furnish official recipts. There are quite a considerable number of those who subscribed sums varying from £1 to £15, and some of them never got official receipts from the collectors. Others did, but destroyed them because of the danger in keeping them. There are a large number through the country who have not any acknowledgment of the State's indebtedness to them, and I would like if the Minister stated his intention with regard to giving them an opportunity of proving that they did subscribe. Many of them are in a position to name the persons, some of whom hold important positions in the State, who collected the money from them, and in many cases they have written statements stating that those persons got the money and sent it on to the Minister for Finance in the Dáil. I think it is advisable that some means should be found whereby an opportunity would be given to them to furnish proof of the payments made. I do not think they have been asked officially to furnish proof, except documentary proof, such as receipts. Many who have no receipts are in a position to prove by affidavit and otherwise that the money was collected from and paid by them. There are some cases, too, where it is doubtful, although the money was collected by responsible people, whether it reached the Ministry at the time. I would like to know what the attitude of the Minister to cases of that kind would be. The money was seized in some cases.

The other point is: Is the Minister in a position to say what progress has been made with regard to the actuarial investigation into the Teachers' Fund? There is complaint about the great delay which has taken place in connection with this matter. It is over twelve months since the investigation was promised, and there are very important matters depending on it. I would like to know when the Minister expects that the matter would be finished.

Mr. JOHNSON

Perhaps while the Minister is dealing with the question of accounting, he might tell the House what the position is regarding the American judgment in the matter of the American loan. I think there was a statement made that the position was under consideration. It is well to know whether that consideration has come to fruition, and whether it is opportune to make any statement to the House.

I want to ask the Minister, also, if he will publish, in a convenient form, the accounts relating to unemployment insurance from the time it was taken over in April, 1922. There were circulated, a couple of years ago, the summary accounts for the years 1922 and 1923. I think the time is now arrived when full disclosure of the position of the fund should be made and the accounts for the several years should be published, including the position now created, of the acceptance of liability for the pre-1922 overdraft. I think while we are on that we might ask the Departments concerned to bring together, in one volume, in a more convenient form than is at present available, the various financial accounts of the State. We have the finance accounts coming at the end of the year, and then we have other odd leaflets occasionally circulated, but if we can have them all in one small volume, it would be an advantage.

I want also to ask the Minister whether he can follow the practice in Great Britain, regarding temporary borrowing, to publish the price that is paid by the Minister, the, rate of interest he agrees upon. Also, I think it is not unusual for the name of the person or concern which lends to be published also. I am not sure on the latter point, but I think it is quite clear that the rate of interest charged for temporary borrowing is published periodically, and that is not the case in the Free State.

Mr. HORGAN

The Minister stated that some expenditure will be involved in connection with the Economy Committee. I would like to ask him if that Committee has had any sittings yet and, if not, when it will sit, who will the witnesses be, and whether the sittings will be held in public or private. I have an opinion about that Committee which I will not express now.

Mr. LAWLOR

I would like to ask the Minister a question as to the conditions of employment in regard to cleaners and charwomen mentioned in the estimate. How are these persons recruited? Is due consideration given to widows with families, and is it the Minister's intention that such employment should be entirely devoted to those who have lost their breadwinners, and who are struggling to rear families?

Mr. BLYTHE

We have only been able to deal so far with a great deal less than half of the subscribers to the Dáil Eireann Loan, but progress is steadily being made. Out of 135,000 subscribers we have had application from about 42,000. Where we have records of the subscriptions of persons and where such persons apply no difficulty arises in connection with failure to hold a receipt, but if we have no record, and if a person applies, we are up against a rather difficult situation. When we have made as much progress as we can make along present lines we will consider the setting up of a tribunal to hear claims. I do not see any other way out of it. All sorts of difficulties exist where we have no record.

A case was brought to my notice in regard to a hamlet where there are only three or four persons residing. Apparently a meeting was held there at which subscriptions were collected, and the names of about forty persons are on the register with the name of the hamlet given as their address. As I say, only three or four people live there, whereas there might be several John Smiths given on the register with that address but none of whom lives there. It is difficult to find out what John Smith within a range of three or four miles of that hamlet subscribed, say, £3 or £4 to the loan. The whole problem is fraught with difficulty. In some counties practically no question will arise, as we have almost complete records in connection with them, and have had applications from several subscribers. In the course of a short time we will probably get applications from the remainder and we can make repayment. In other counties, however, we have very-defective records. I do not see how we will be able to deal with the matter otherwise than by the appointment of a tribunal to hear evidence and come to the best conclusion it can. We are anxious to repay every penny of the money to every person who subscribed, or to his representatives. With regard to the money that did not reach the Ministry, I do not see what we can do. We are only authorised under the Act to repay money that came into account. If it did not reach the Ministry of Finance I do not think we could do anything without further legislation. If there were numerous cases, or cases that involved great hardship, there might be reason to come to the Dáil for further powers in the matter, but at present we are only concerned with the money that actually reached the Exchequer of the old Dáil.

I am sorry that I cannot give an answer on the spot to Deputy O'Connell with regard to the progress of the actuarial investigation in regard to teachers' pensions. I have not been much in touch with these matters for the past two months, and I could not say how the matter stands. With regard to the American loan, we have decided not to bring any appeal. Such money as was held in America and was in question in the litigation is being returned to the subscribers. To that extent our responsibility is lessened except for the question of expense that may be involved. It is, so far as we are concerned, the same as if we were getting the money, financially, at any rate. I have always taken the line, no matter what courts outside may say, that we are the successors of the First Dáil. We are bound to repay that money, and we are certainly bound to repay the portion that came over here and was used. The full text of the American judgment has recently been received in my Department, but I have not had an opportunity of going into it. It was sufficiently examined, however, to convince us that there was no case for our litigating further in the matter.

I will look into the question of accounts relating to unemployment insurance. If it was the custom to publish accounts, I think we should publish them. In any case I think we should publish accounts in reasonable detail, giving the facts, so that Deputies may have them. I will have that matter examined. With regard to temporary borrowings, we are at present borrowing simply from one institution. We were able to get the amounts we required so far, so that we can carry on until we issue a loan in the autumn. We have been able to get these from the Bank of Ireland. We have a condition that would enable us to borrow temporarily under the conditions under which borrowing takes place in Great Britain. Whether any announcement in regard to the rates at which we borrow at present would enable us to borrow more cheaply when we are going to issue to the public next November is a matter about which I am not sure. That is the only question involved. There is no question of making any mystery about what we are paying. It is simply a question of the effect that the rates of interest we are paying might have on the public mind.

Mr. JOHNSON

Is there not a possibility that others might be willing to lend at lower rates?

Mr. BLYTHE

I do not think so.

Mr. JOHNSON

Who is to know, if they are not published?

Mr. BLYTHE

There is nobody, I think, to lend except the banks. We cannot issue publicly. I have never had any offers to lend except one, and in that case they would like a good deal more than the rate at which we could borrow. Deputy Horgan asked about the Economy Committee. It has met once. Naturally, owing to the elections, it was not possible for any Minister to give much time to it, but it will get on with its work. I hope to be able to announce definitely the name of the permanent Chairman, and it will then be able to get on with its work. The witnesses will be the officials of the various Departments. There will not be any public sittings. I am not sure what the position is in regard to the conditions of employment of charwomen and cleaners. If Deputy Lawlor would put down a question I would give him a full answer, but I could not at the moment say to whom preference is given.

Mr. McMENAMIN

Would the Minister tell us what are the fees in regard to the cost of the American suit?

Mr. BLYTHE

I could not say at the moment. If the Deputy put down a question I would tell him. The matter will, however, arise in connection with the Law Charges Vote.

Mr. O'BRIEN

Could the Minister say how much will be left when the expenses of the lawyers in America are met?

Mr. BLYTHE

There will be something left.

Vote put and agreed to.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m., until 12 o'clock on Friday, 1st July.