IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 10—PUBLIC WORKS OFFICE. – Dáil Éireann (5th Dáil) – Tuesday, 5 Jul 1927

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 10—PUBLIC WORKS OFFICE.

MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £82,465 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1928, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig na nOibreacha Puiblí. (1 agus 2 Will. 4, c. 33, a. 5 agus 6; 5 agus 6 Vict., c. 89, a. 1 agus 2; 9 agus 10 Vict., c. 86, a. 2, 7 agus 9; 10 Vict., c. 32 a. 3; 33 agus 34 Vict., c. 46, a. 42; 40 agus 41 Vict., c. 27; 44 agus 45 Vict., c. 49, a. 31, etc.)

That a sum not exceeding £82,465 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1928, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Public Works. (1 and 2 Will. 4, c. 33, ss. 5 and 6; 5 and 6 Vict., c. 89, ss. 1 and 2; 9 and 10 Vict., c. 86, ss. 2, 7 and 9; 10 Vict., c. 32, s. 3; 33 and 34 Vict., c. 46, s. 42; 40 and 41 Vict., c. 27; 44 and 45 Vict., c. 49, s. 31, etc.).

Mr. BURKE

I understand it is the view of the House that they are not anxious for long opening statements from Ministers on the Estimates on this occasion. I expect that if there is to be anything in the way of lengthy discussion it will arise on Vote 11, which deals with the practical side of the work of this particular department. The only question that obviously arises on the face of those Estimates is an increase in respect to sub-head A, providing for salaries. This is accounted for mainly by the temporary increase in staff to deal with works of an exceptional character. There is, to begin with, an increase in the staff of the Engineering Branch. The temporary engineers, arterial drainage, account for approximately £2,000 of an additional increase. Then the expenses of land valuers in connection with arterial drainage account for another £2,300. Temporary junior engineers, arterial branch, account for possibly another £400. In the architectural branch there are two additional assistant architects for new buildings and works. That accounts for £500. Then there are also two additional architects' assistants for new building works, approximating to another £400. In addition there is the automatic increase in the bonus, which accounts for £2,000. The difference between the other casual increases and decreases on the sub-head goes to make up the balance of the total increase.

There is only one other point that may arise on the estimate, and that is the question of filling the vacancy which remained over some time before. That is the appointment of a commissioner. That office was not filled until recently, and a question may be asked as to why the vacancy was filled at all. The late commissioner resigned, having reached the maximum age. He was succeeded by another commissioner, who is also near the maximum, and it was considered advisable that the new commissioner, who will probably succeed him when he vacates this post ultimately, should have some experience in the position before the full responsibility is thrown upon him. So that really the filling of this office is only temporary, and I anticipate that in the future we shall only have two commissioners, as in the past. I do not think that on this particular Vote it is necessary to say anything further in my opening statement. I may, perhaps, have something more to say on the following Vote.

Mr. BAXTER

There is one question that I wish to raise. If the Minister will turn to the Engineering Branch, page 37, he will find, down near the foot of the page, there are 14 temporary drainage engineers, junior, salary £200 per annum (inclusive). I want to know from the Minister what work are these men engaged in? I want to know what class of work they are at? Are they qualified engineers? Are they outdoor men or men doing work in an office? The salary is £200 per annum inclusive. If they are qualified engineers the Minister will say that he is able to obtain qualified engineers at £200 per annum, doing what we assume is certainly responsible work, and work requiring men with experience and qualifications, and particularly outdoor work. If men can be obtained for this work at that rate of remuneration it would be advisable, if men who are able to achieve as much would be sent to other departments at once, and if we could get something like the same standard of salary for efficient work in all departments, we would have brought about a condition of things that a good many people in the State want to see, and a consequent reduction all round in the cost of administration.

Major COOPER

I want to raise, on this Vote, a question of policy, and I think it can appropriately be raised now. I refer to the policy of the Office of Works in refusing to allow an inscription to be placed on the pedestal of the bust of the late T.M. Kettle that has been erected in Stephen's Green. From the newspapers I gather that the Board of Works object to three lines from one of T. M. Kettle's poems, written on the eve of his death in France, on the ground that they would cause contention and possible hostility to the memorial. I have always tried to seek peace and ensure it, but I have ventured to hope that that decision of the Office of Works may be reconsidered, because I think when it is looked at in a right light the policy of the Board of Works will be found to be a mistaken policy. The lines that were objected to are these:—

"These poor dead

Died not for flag or king or emperor,

But for a dream born in a herdsman's shed

And for the simple scripture of the poor."

I think they expressed what was in Kettle's own mind when he joined the British Army and went to the war. Tom Kettle was a friend of mine. I had a friendship with him such as I have with many Deputies of this Dáil, based not on any common ideal or on any identity of opinion, but based on a recognition of those qualities that make for friendship, and I believe that I might interpret his mind thus:—He did not go to fight and die in France for love of England. I do not think he ever entertained that feeling; he did not go for hatred of Germany. He loved German music and he loved Germany. He may have gone in part in the spirit of the Wild Geese of old:

" War dogs battered and grey,

Gnawing a broken bone:

Fighters in every clime

And every cause but our own."

But in the main I believe he went, because in the early days of the war he was sent by a newspaper to Belgium as a war correspondent, and there he saw the refugees driven from their homes, drifting down the roads. Anybody who has seen the war refugees knows that there is no sadder sight in the world; carts hastily piled up with all the treasures the household held dear, old women and little children forced from their homes. I believe that the paramount impulse of Kettle's poem was the desire to see these people put back into their homes. Is there anybody who will say that that was not a kindly and Christian impulse? Is there anybody, I do not care how bitter party feeling is in this country, will take exception to the dead man having the words which he wrote, the thoughts of his mind on the eve of his death, inscribed on his own memorial? The Parliamentary Secretary approaches this question anew. He is not responsible for any previous decision. I know he has ideals. I believe he has a generous enough mind to respect the ideals of others. I would appeal to him, not in any hostile or polemical spirit, to reconsider this question, and to say if a young man cut off in the prime of life, may not be remembered by the words which he choose himself and wrote down on the eve of his death. I do not believe that any susceptibility or any feeling in the State will be injured if the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Works gives way on this point.

Mr. BURKE

As to the point raised by Deputy Cooper, I would be long sorry if any wrong impression were to arise in the country as a result of action taken in this particular case. It is not for us to inquire into the motives that induce any individual to fight for any cause that might appear dear or important to him. We all respect the memory of brave men, no matter for what cause they die. In this particular case the motives with regard to retarding the inscription on this monument were certainly not of the kind that might possibly be adduced from the Deputy's statement. It was merely with the object of preventing any possible vandalism that might arise as the result of heat engendered in the election campaign. There was no intention to continue that attitude after that particular phase had passed. I understand that no objection will be raised in future to the inscription.

With regard to Deputy Baxter's point about engineers, those men are fully qualified. They are young men only recently qualified, the majority of them, and, unfortunately, in this country we have not got many openings for engineers. As a result of that we are perhaps able to get them at a lower figure than might otherwise be anticipated. They are doing very important work in making preliminary surveys in connection with the Arterial Drainage Act, 1925. I understand they are giving complete satisfaction in that very useful work.

Mr. JOHNSON

It is an unfortunate statement to make; it is an unfortunate statement to go out to University students that the country is flooded with University-trained engineers and consequently the policy of the Government is to buy them cheap when they have qualified and gone through their trials. I hope that will be disowned by Ministers—that it is the business of the Government in respect to University graduates, as it is in respect to the common or garden worker, to reduce wages.

Mr. BURKE

It happens that there are too many on the market.

Mr. JOHNSON

Then we are to take it as part of Government policy that it is their business to buy human labour, whether of the University type or of any other type, in the cheapest market?

Mr. BURKE

At the price we can afford.

Mr. JOHNSON

At the price the State can afford? And £200 per annum for a trained engineer is the price the State can afford? Now we know where we are.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

What has the representative of the University to say to that?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

We will answer any engineer's complaint, but they appear to be satisfied.

Mr. JOHNSON

The Minister's answer is that they will give a reply to any complaint from an engineer; but this House is interested in the question of the sum that will be paid to persons who have gone through a University and have taken advantage of the amount voted by the House for University training. It is a matter that will require our consideration when we come to the University Vote. I give notice that it will be raised on the University Vote.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Jul 1927