Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Jul 1927

Vol. 20 No. 5

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 13—CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £7,186 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh la de Mhárta, 1928, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Coimisiún na Stát-Sheirbhíse (Achtanna Rialuithe na Stát-Sheirbhíse, 1924, agus 1926) agus an Choimisiúin um Cheapachain Aitiúla (Acht na nUdarás nAitfúil (Oifigigh agus Fostaithe), 1926).

That a sum not exceeding £7,186 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1928, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Civil Service Commission. (Civil Service Regulation Acts, 1924 and 1926) and of the Local Appointments Commission (Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926).

The increase which is shown in this Vote this year is due to the fact that provision for the work of the Local Appointments Commission has to be made for a full year, whereas in the last Estimate there was only provision for a part of a year. The work of the two Commissions is carried out by a joint staff. In was found necessary on setting up the Local Appointments Commission to create a new post, that of Secretary to Selection Boards. The creation of this post means that there is a certain continuity, and that there is at every Selection Board an experienced officer, who can see that the members of Selection Boards do not through lack of experience fall into any pit-falls. There has been a good deal of Selection Board work, particularly in connection with the Local Appointments Commission. A great number of citizens have given their services on these Selection Boards, free of any cost to the State. I would like to take this opportunity of expressing appreciation of the public-spirited action of a great many people, including a number of doctors and others, who have undertaken very arduous work in connection with Selection Boards. There was one case, for instance, in which recommendations had to be made for doctors for five dispensaries. I think there were 125 applicants. The qualifications and the testimonials of all those doctors were examined, and the applicants were all interviewed. The same thing happened in other instances, so that the work of the Selection Boards is in some cases very arduous work, and involves the sacrifice of a good deal of time. Those who have helped in the work of those Selection Boards out of a sense of public duty are certainly deserving of some appreciation.

The Estimate shows certain sums expected to be obtained by way of extra Exchequer receipts. A sum of £650 is put down as the amount estimated to be received from County and County Borough Councils under sub-section (4) of Section 12 of the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act. 1926. That is estimated to be the excess of the cost of the Commission over the receipts from the candidates' fees. Every effort is made to make the cost to the local authorities as small as possible. Outsiders have acted on those Selection Boards, and the services of many civil servants have been given incidentally in connection with the Boards. There is no charge in connection with them. I do not think that I need say anything with reference to the general work of the Civil Service Commission. It is well known. For all appointments in the Civil Service, competitive examinations are held. Where the appointment requires experience, and where the candidates cannot be tested by written examinations, Selection Boards are set up. In addition to work for the Civil Service proper, examinations for army cadets, police and other examinations have been held.

The Local Appointments Commission in certain cases hold examinations, and in other cases set up Selection Boards. The type of people who have been appointed to the Civil Service by means of Selection Boards, includes the following:—Assistant Parliamentary Draftsman, Medical Referees for the National Health Insurance Commission, Dairy Produce Inspectors, Technical Appointments in the Stationery Office. National Education Inspectors, Architectural Assistants in the Board of Works, Drainage Engineers, Chemist in the State Laboratory, and appointments in the Broadcasting Station. Appointments made on the recommendation of Selection Boards, for Local Authority, include—Medical Officers of Health, Dispensary Doctors. Doctors for Institutions, Nurses, Midwives, Town Clerk, and other officers. The cost of the work is met, to a substantial extent, by the fees of candidates. In the case of dispensary doctors, the fee charged is £1, and the fee for solicitors to County Councils would be £1. In the Civil Service, the fees paid by candidates vary from £4 in the case of an examination for Junior Administrative Officer or Assistant Inspector of Taxes to £2 in the case of an officer of Customs and Excise down to 10/- in the case of typists and shorthand-typists, 5/- in the case of Post Office Learners, and 2/6 in the case of Boy Messengers and Girl Probationers in the Post Office.

Mr. M.J. DOYLE

The Minister has told us a good deal of the Appointments Commission, of Selection Boards and of the saving to the Local Authorities. My experience of the Appointments Commission and the Selection Boards is not the same as that of the Minister. The delay which is caused in making the appointments necessitates considerable avoidable outlay on the part of the local authorities. While agreeing with the Minister that the gentlemen who give their services gratis on these Selection Boards deserve our gratitude, I should like to point out that the local authorities are losing by the system. In some cases which I know they have lost hundreds of pounds by the delay in making appointments. I do not think that that can be described as economy. The Minister said that everything was being done to lighten the expenses of local boards. As a fact, the salaries paid to doctors doing locum tenens work are double the ordinary salaries. In some cases the delay in making appointments has been six months greater than it would be under the old régime. In respect of every appointment that delay involved a loss to local boards with which I am connected of £150. I do not think that is a great economy. So far from being economic I think this system is quite the reverse so far as the local boards are concerned.

Mr. BLYTHE

The Deputy must realise that, in connection with this new system of making appointments, there were a great many difficulties to be overcome in the first instance. To decide on procedure and on the method on which the Selection Boards would be constituted took time and everything connected with the matter presented very great difficulties, in the first instance. Perhaps in relation to the first appointments there were delays. These difficulties have been to a very large extent overcome. While you cannot get appointments as quickly as you could in certain circumstances under the old system, I think it can be promised that they will be got in the future without any serious delay.

Under the old arrangement, it was possible to give very short notice by way of advertisement and to have the appointment made at the next meeting of the Board after the applications had been received. So far as the Local Appointments Commissioners are concerned, advertisements are issued and there is a reasonable time given for all likely applicants to apply. After they have applied, the Board is set up. The number of applicants is very great.

There is, undoubtedly, a much wider choice than there ever was under the old system. You used to have two or three persons with some local "pull" applying for local appointments. In one case, under the new method, there were as many as 25 doctors applying for each position. Five posts were advertised and 125 doctors applied. It takes some little time to have the qualifications of 125 candidates scrutinised. Interviewing the candidates occupies a few days. It is not possible to set down a selection board and let it go ahead for 24 hours, without rising. When the report is presented to the Local Appointments Commission, a medical examination of the recommended candidates has to take place and, after the medical examination, the Local Appointments Commission, having got the names of referees, has to make its inquiries in regard to the character of the applicants. All that has to be done before the names are sent down to the local authority as being fully qualified in respect of professional knowledge, health and character to fill the post. I think in future there will be no cause of complaint in regard to delay.

Mr. M. DOYLE

Does the Minister say that it will take six months to get all this done?

Mr. BLYTHE

Not at all.

Mr. M. DOYLE

That is what has been occurring.

Mr. BRENNAN

While we all welcome the system which will secure to the public the best service, I am afraid there is one essential being overlooked in the making of these appointments. I should be very glad if the Minister would take some steps to remedy this defect. I have one case in mind which bears out my contention. I do not think that full consideration is given to the local needs and requirements, apart from the qualifications and fitness of the candidates. In a particular district, which is very difficult to administer, a lady doctor was recently appointed. I am afraid that that appointment will not be a success. I think if the local needs and requirements were considered—I do not know if any representations were made—a lady doctor would not have been appointed to that district. This is a matter which I think requires some attention.

Mr. JOHNSON

I should like to direct attention to one aspect of this Vote. I note that under sub-head C (2) there is £1,000 allocated for the advertising of examinations. I am not sure whether or not that covers the advertisement of vacancies. Does this refer to the advertisement one reads that, say, five nurses are required in certain places and that applications are invited, or is there another advertisement which is not included in this Estimate and which is paid for by the local authority?

Mr. BLYTHE

There is no advertisement paid for by the Local Authority.

Mr. JOHNSON

I question the wisdom of these frequent advertisements for minor appointments. They do not seem to be required by the provisions of the Act. It seems rather trivial to publish advertisements in half-a-dozen papers in respect of positions worth from £50 to £100 a year.

In addition, I want to protest—I have done so once already—against the fees charged before applications are considered. I think the fees are too high. They are too high particularly in the case of an applicant who is seeking time after time for a post. The Minister has told us that 125 doctors applied for five positions. If those 125 doctors are continuing to apply, the last man will have paid £100 before he gets the post. We know, as a matter of fact, that plenty of people are making applications repeatedly for appointments and each time they are expected to pay a fee of from 5/- to £1. These people are not in a position to pay that fee. It is only the employed person who can readily afford that fee and, sometimes, even he cannot very easily afford it. The unemployed person, whom one should think about when publishing advertisements of this kind, cannot legitimately be asked to pay repeatedly this fee of from 5/- to £1. I submit to the Minister that it is necessary there should be a considerable reduction in the fees if fees have to be repeatedly charged. I do not know whether or not it would be possible to have an arrangement whereby a fee would be valid over a period. The fee is too heavy a charge for the unemployed person to bear and it is too heavy a charge even for the lower-paid employed person to bear I do not suppose there are many doctors seeking this particular class of appointment who are in a position to pay repeatedly £4 for a stamp.

Mr. BLYTHE

The fee for a dispensary doctor would be £1.

Mr. JOHNSON

I thought a fee of £4 was mentioned for a doctor.

Mr. BLYTHE

The fee of £4 is in connection with the competitive examination for Inspectors of Taxes or Junior Administrative Officers.

Mr. JOHNSON

I was not clear as to that. However, I am rather concerned with the fee of from 7/6 to 15/-. It is the class of person affected by that fee to whom my attention has been directed. He is invited to send in an application two or three times a year. After the first application, there may be no results and although he will have a right to try again, he cannot afford to throw away another 7/6 or 15/-. I make the appeal that the fees should be revised and the rate reduced.

Mr. BAXTER

I desire to point out, in the first instance, that the Estimate on this occasion exceeds the Estimate for 1925-26 by £3,600. The actual expenditure then was £7,243. I do not think that that increase of expenditure is justified by the Local Appointments Commission. I also want to comment on the fact that in 1923-24 there were seven officials in this Department, thirteen in 1924-25, eighteen in 1925-26, and for 1927-28, twenty-five. If the Department continues to grow at that rate it will soon be one of the largest in the State. I do not think the amount of work to be done justifies such an increased expenditure and such an increased staff. The Minister will have to justify the expenditure before it is passed.

With regard to the point raised by Deputy Doyle, and supported for various reasons by Deputy Brennan, I do not suppose that complaints against the existence of the Civil Service Commission are half as strong or as forcible as the complaints against the existence of the Local Appointments Commission. Deputy Brennan complained about the existence of the Commission for one reason, and Deputy Doyle for another. Deputy Doyle's complaint is a very justifiable one, and if the Local Appointments Commission is to continue to function, and be looked upon as an authority competent to make appointments, it will have to speed up matters and do the work. It will have to make appointments in a reasonable time. Deputy Doyle raised this matter in the House a few months ago, and he informs me that these appointments are yet unfilled. There are demands from various parts of the country for the repeal of this Statute. If the law that exists causes dissatisfaction on the one hand, and on the other hand, because of the reasons referred to by Deputy Doyle, then it is going to become very unpopular. Other counties can make the same complaint that Deputy Doyle makes. I have some experience of the slow methods of the Local Appointments Commission with regard to the filling of posts in my constituency.

If the Commission is to command any confidence at all—I do not know if it will ever be really satisfactory—it will certainly have to recognise that local authorities want the appointments to be filled in the shortest possible space of time, so that they will not have the onus cast on them of paying higher salaries to substitutes. If the present machinery is not giving satisfaction, and I believe it is not, then I strongly urge the Minister to revise it. On consideration of the difficulties, if more satisfaction cannot be secured, then I predict, as I did when the Bill was going through, that the Act will have to be repealed.

Mr. BLYTHE

I think there is no reason to be dissatisfied with the Act. I think the passage of the Act was the beginning of one of the greatest reforms yet introduced. It is an Act that is going to purify public life so far as local authorities are concerned, and I find that intelligent members of local authorities are very glad, so far as some appointments, at any rate, are concerned, that they are free from canvassing, and the efforts to enlist their support, to which they were subject. There is no reason why the appointment of, say, a dispensary doctor should not be made by the machinery of the Commission within four or five weeks. That is perhaps a fortnight or three weeks longer than was taken under the old method. I do not think we could get appointments made as quickly as under the old method. Any additional expense that may fall on local authorities, as a result of employing locum tenens a little longer, will be made up, undoubtedly, by having a new tone given to local administration, by having people appointed who are much better qualified, by giving a chance to people who had no chance in the past, because they had no influence, and by getting the best people that are available for the money for the ratepayers.

Deputy Brennan spoke about the appointment of a woman doctor in a particular district. I am sorry the Deputy was not in the last Dáil when the last Civil Service Regulation Act was before the House. I do not know if he would have agreed with the stand that I was taking then, but I suspect he would have helped me somewhat.

Mr. BRENNAN

I hope the Minister has not missed the point. The point I raised was: Was due consideration given to the local needs and requirements and the fitness of the candidates to carry out the work in that district. I have not objected exactly to the lady doctor.

Mr. BLYTHE

I think that is a matter that will have to work itself out. If the lady doctor in a place is notable to do the work, then a case can be made, but until she has had a try at it there is no use in discussing it. Deputy Johnson said that the fees were too high. I already indicated that in one particular case where there were five appointments for doctors there were 125 applicants. That was a very heavy task to set the Selection Board. If we had no fees perhaps we would have had more applicants. It will not facilitate the working of the Act to cut down the fees too much. In fact, if we cut them down too much, the Act might break down. At any rate, you might be driven to the position of having paid selection boards, and probably people of not as high standing on them. Supposing there are five dispensaries vacant at one time, a candidate could apply for them all and pay only the one fee, so that it is not so very heavy. I do not think there are so many doctors unemployed as to make it impossible for them to raise even £1.

Mr. JOHNSON

There are other people unemployed.

Mr. BLYTHE

Take nurses. The number of nurses applying for any position so far has not been very large. It is not at all likely that any nurse who is at all qualified will find that the payment of a fee is a heavy charge on her. It has happened that there were only two or three applicants for the position of nurse, so that I do not think it is likely that any one of them will pay fees again and again. Out of a total of about £10,000 expenditure, only about £2,500 was recouped by fees. As far as examinations are concerned, there is an age limit generally, and the candidate has only two or three chances, so that you will not have so many persons paying fees again and again. I do not think that the sort of situation that Deputy Johnson indicated exists, or is likely to arise.

Mr. JOHNSON

I can assure the Minister that it does, in fact, exist with people who are ordinary workmen and women. Take the case of nurses, which the Minister spoke of. Some of the advertisements have been for posts at £25 a year, and applicants are expected to send in fees for such posts. There are, in fact, cases of workmen that have come under my own notice who would have liked to have applied for certain posts. After sending in one application and paying a fee, they heard no more. They know they are competent for the job, but they are not going to do for the Civil Service Commission what they would not do for a private employer, and perchance the Civil Service does not get the best choice. I really do not think that for ordinary avocations, for ordinary workmen, working more or less for the equivalent of a weekly wage, which might be paid monthly, there is any reason why there should be such fees even as 5s., 7s. 6d., and 10s. charged with each application. No private employer requires such a payment, and the old municipal system did not call for any such payment.

Mr. BLYTHE

Of course it is recognised that in certain appointments of a low value the fees should be small, but it is really a question from the point of view of the State of getting the best people available as regards qualifications, and if, through having no fee, or having fees that are too low, we make it easy and tempt people who are not really qualified to apply, we may hinder the working of the system. However, if the Deputy would some time indicate to me a case by way of illustration— if he were able to say that he knows so-and-so who would have liked to have applied for a job, and did not because he had applied previously, I might get some investigation of the matter carried out. With regard to advertising, we are already examining that question, and considering the policy that will get us candidates while lessening the cost.

Mr. BAXTER

The Minister did not refer to the increase in the Estimate and in the staff.

Mr. BLYTHE

I do not think that any comment is necessary. It is obvious that a whole new range of work has been opened up by the setting up of the Local Appointments Commission that was not in existence in 1925-26. As for the figures of 1923-4, there is no need to talk about them. The Commission was just beginning—it had not by any means got into its stride. Now the Commission is in full working order and has a staff that enables it to do the work required to be done. There were great complaints that years after people had been appointed certificates had not been issued to them. They were not issued because in the early years there was no staff to issue them. Now we have a staff that is able to do the work of the Commission, and unless there were increases, such as might be occasioned if the Minister for Local Government issued Orders bringing other classes of local employees within the Act, the present staff might be regarded as the staff that is competent to do the work that has been shown to be the work that will fall on the Commission.

Vote put and agreed to.

Progress ordered to be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again to-morrow.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.25 p.m.