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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Jul 1927

Vol. 20 No. 6

ORDUITHE AN LAE. ORDERS OF THE DAY. - VOTE 16—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,190,435 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníochta i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1928, chun Aoisliúntaisí, Cúiteamh, Liúntaisí agus Aiscí Truagha agus Breise fé Reachtanna iolardha; Cúiteamh fé Airtiogal 10 de Chonnra an 6adh Mí na Nodlag, 1921; Liúntaisí Truagha, Aiscí agus Pinsin Bhreise a deonadh ag an Aire Airgid; Tuarastal an Dochtúra Réitigh; agus Iocaíochtanna iolardha i dtaobh Pinsean a íocann an Rialtas Briotáineach fé láthair.

That a sum not exceeding £1,190,435 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1928, for Superannuation, Compensation, Compassionate and Additional Allowances and Gratuities under Sundry Statutes; Compensation under Article 10 of the Treaty of the 6th December, 1921; Compassionate Allowances, Gratuities and Supplementary Pensions awarded by the Minister for Finance; the Salary of the Medical Referee; and sundry Repayments in respect of Pensions at present paid by the British Government.

There is no great change in this Vote, which, as Deputies see, is a very big and important one. Sub-head (A) deals with the ordinary pensions for civil servants who retire in the normal course, except those who retire from the Post Office. Provision is made for Post Office pensions in the Post Office Vote. In sub-head (B) there will naturally be, of course, an increase from year to year. That is for additional allowances and gratuities to established officers retired in the ordinary course. Formerly, officers were awarded pensions based on sixtieths of their salaries, a sixtieth for every year of service up to forty years service. Subsequently legislation was passed which enabled officers, if they so chose, to have their pensions assessed in eightieths, and to be paid a lump sum on retirement. The additional allowances are the lump sums which are payable to officers on retirement, who will be paid eightieths instead of sixtieths. Sub-head (C), as Deputies will see from the wording of the Estimate, is compensation allowances under Article 10 of the Treaty. (D) refers to the additional allowance payable in connection with those pensions under Article 10 of the Treaty. Sub-head (E) is for compassionate gratuities. These are gratuities that are payable to unestablished servants. They are payable under two Acts— either under Section 4 of the Act of 1887, or Section 3 of the Act of 1914. Under Section 4 of the Act of 1887 the gratuity may be granted to unestablished whole-time officers who have had, at least, seven years' service, and whose removal is in consequence of the abolition of their employment, or in order to facilitate improvements and effect economies, or (b) who having had fifteen years' service, retire on becoming incapacitated in mind or body from continuing in employment.

The amount of the compassionate gratuities is £1 or one week's pay, whichever is the greater, for each year of service, so that the amount of these compassionate gratuities, as the Deputies will see, is very small. The second heading under which compassionate gratuities is given is when an officer dies in his employment; a gratuity is given to his dependents. As a rule, payments are made out of these subheads to persons who die or are killed in the execution of their duty. They are only made in exceptional circumstances.

Sub-head (G) contains provision for grants payable under the Workmen's Compensation Acts. Sub-head (H) is self-explanatory, and the same applies to (I). Sub-head (J) represents the payments which are made by way of pensions to resigned and dismissed members of the R.I.C. The number of pensions so far awarded is 543. There may be a few additional pensions awarded still, but the number cannot be large. Sub-heads (L) and (LL) contain provisions for gratuities and pensions to members of the amalgamated police forces. The bulk of the provision in (L) is in respect of the members of the late D.M.P. The provisions under (LL) cover awards under Article 10 of the Treaty to members of the D.M.P. Sub-head (M) deals with repayment to the British Government in respect of civil pensions. This particular sub-head will be steadily decreasing, and, as it decreases, sub-head (A), which represents the pensions that we pay ourselves direct, will increase. Sub-head (N) is a new sub-head, and represents, as the Deputies are aware, 75 per cent. of the pensions payable to ex-members of the R.I.C. The other 25 per cent. is paid by the Northern Government. As I previously explained in the Dáil, this 75 per cent. was based on the average distribution of the R.I.C. during a period of 20 years prior to disbandment.

This Vote makes provision for pending retirements, that is to say, retirements by civil servants who have intimated their anxiety to get out under Article 10?

It makes provision for what is believed to be the amount that will be required in the current financial year.

Is it not a fact that there are some civil servants who signified their intention of retiring more than a year or two ago?

Yes, about 380.

The Minister made some promise, I think, when replying to a question by Deputy 0'Connor before the dissolution, regarding new legislation he proposed to introduce which would make it possible to give additional awards in respect of pensions for ex-R.I.C. men who had resigned, but had not been passed by the Committee originally set up. Can the Minister say when that legislation will be introduced?

I expect it will be introduced in the Autumn, but I do not think even that legislation, coupled with the re-consideration of certain cases which were either provisionally rejected or are still in suspense, will lead to more than thirty or thirty-five additional pensions being awarded.

Can the Minister tell me if, under sub-head L, the men who retired through conscientious motives from the R.I.C. and had considerable service, and who were subsequently re-appointed to the Gárda Síochána, will, when they are retired, be allowed to count their previous service when having their pensions calculated?

I would like to know from the Minister if there is a list of the names of the persons who receive these pensions available for those who wish to inspect them. There is some talk here and there through the country of persons in receipt of secret pensions, and I really think those who have to pay these pensions—in fact, I think, any citizen of the Free State— ought to be in the position of knowing the persons who are actually in receipt of pensions.

There is no such thing as a secret pension. I do not know whether the Deputy has been appointed a member of the Committee of Public Accounts or not, but if he has, he will, perhaps, discover that there could be no such thing, and that there is absolutely no possibility of such a thing as a secret pension. As to the publication of lists of pensioners of any sort, that is a matter which I certainly would not like to give an opinion on without more consideration.

So far as the resigned and dismissed R.I.C., who subsequently joined the Gárda Síochána, are concerned, I am not sure at the moment whether their previous service would be taken into account or whether the pension which they are now entitled to, and which was suspended during their employment, will be supplemented by a pension representing their subsequent service in the Gárda Síochána.

It is evident a man of considerable age, who resigned and was re-appointed, could not under the new regulations, get much in the way of pension unless he was allowed to count his previous service. If he were not, he would come off badly.

He still would have the pension awarded under this particular Act, but it would remain suspended during his employment. That pension would become payable on his retirement from the Gárda Síochána.

May I take it that he will not be at a loss over his devotion to his country?

I do not think so.

Mr. WHITE

Will the Minister state the number of persons at present employed in various Departments in the Free State service who are in receipt of a British pension?

I could not.

Mr. WHITE

You could not state without making inquiries?

Mr. WHITE

In the Inland Revenue Department, are there not gentlemen employed in high positions who are in receipt of British pensions?

There are a few people in the Inland Revenue Department who are in receipt of British pensions. There was a great shortage of trained staff, and we brought back a number of pensioners to serve in the Customs service, particularly. The number of those has very much diminished. Some of them still remain; I do not know how many, but of course, as they were people who were already old enough to retire on pension from the British service, they will not continue very long with us. They were brought in as a matter of absolute necessity and we were extremely glad to get them at the time they were employed.

Will the Minister make clear the position regarding ex-British civil servants, who are pensioners, when they take up employment in the Free State? I understand something in the nature of a declaration is required to be made by those pensioners periodically as to whether they have, in fact, taken up State employment.

The position is, their pensions will be suspended, together with the remuneration which they are being paid for their present employment if it exceeds the pay they had in the office from which they retired, so that any person—dealing with the particular men Deputy White mentioned —who retired from the British service with a pension and who is now employed and is paid by us, will be so placed that his pension and pay, taken together, cannot exceed the amount he will receive on his retirement.

Vote put and agreed to.
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