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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Jul 1927

Vol. 20 No. 7

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 61—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR FISHERIES.

I move—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £35,306 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1928, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Iascaigh.

That a sum not exceeding £35,306 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1928, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Fisheries.

I understand that there is a general desire on the part of the leaders of all Parties that speeches should be curtailed, particularly speeches from the Government Benches. I shall, therefore, not do as I did last year—make a very detailed statement of the work of this Department. I was rather appalled to-day, when looking over the Official Report for last year, to find that I occupied twenty-five columns of the debates. To-day, I shall only make a very general statement and shall not refer to details in the Estimate except where I think they call for a few words.

I have to state that the deep sea fishing industry of the Saorstát is still a long way behind as compared with other countries. The statistics collected by my Department show increases last year over previous years in the quantities and values of fish landed, and this is all to the good, but there are difficulties operating which render our rate of progress very slow. These difficulties are due to international as well as domestic causes. We do not eat much fish ourselves—about 14 lbs. per head per year. We export the bulk of our catch, either fresh or cured, to other countries. We eat all the fish other than herrings and mackerel that we catch, and we import a considerable quantity of fresh and canned fish besides. We export the bulk of the salmon, herrings and mackerel that we catch. Out of 448,000 cwts of fish (excluding salmon and trout) caught and landed in the Saorstát last year, 365,000 cwts. consisted of herrings and mackerel. Of this quantity 275,350 cwts. were exported, principally to Germany and the United States.

The markets for cured herrings and mackerel continue to be depressed, and the low prices realised are reflected in the earnings of our fishermen. This inevitably reacts upon the activities of the men, who are without capital and, therefore, find it most difficult to carry on. The unusually stormy weather and the scarcity of fish during the past few years have contributed, with low prices, to keep the working fishermen practically on the margin of existence. The uncertain conditions operating in the foreign markets for cured fish has caused the position of the curers and exporters to be somewhat precarious, and our Irish curers have carried on during the past few years under very difficult circumstances, frequently incurring losses owing to events which could not be foreseen. Such features are inevitable in an industry in which the very basis of the industry—the fish itself—is so little subject to human control.

While the rate of progress in our sea fisheries is slow, at any rate we are progressing. The quantity of sea fish landed in 1926 was 448,000 cwts., which shows an increase of nearly 15 per cent. on the 1925 catch. The bulk of this increase is due to the greater catch of herrings in 1926, and it is necessary to state that the greater part of the herring catch landed in our ports is made by Scotch and English vessels.

Our mackerel fishing declined in 1926 by 20 per cent. on the catch of 1925. This was due to causes which I mentioned last year. The United States, to which we consign a great deal of our mackerel, did not want our fish last year, because they were catching large quantities themselves, while the English markets were able to get the catches of their own steam trawlers at prices which we could not compete against, chiefly because of the present cost of transit. The landing of other varieties of fish, such as cod, plaice, whiting, shell-fish, etc., show increases on the previous year's landings.

With regard to our salmon fisheries, they gave a satisfactory increase in yield last year as compared with 1925, judging by the returns of exports of this fish. The quantity exported in 1926 was 24,510 cwts., which is an increase of 12½ per cent. on the exports for the preceding year. The value of the catch, however, was only slightly more than in 1925, owing to the traffic disturbances in Great Britain, which caused the price to fall.

Coming to this year, the year opened with very good prospects for the herring industry. The winter herring season opened well in Donegal, where a large fleet of Scotch vessels landed their catches. The quality of the herring was, however, rather disappointing, and the very stormy weather interfered with the operations very considerably. Active preparations were begun early for a very extensive summer herring fishing on the South Coast, from Baltimore in County Cork, to Dunmore East in Waterford. A large number of curers and fishermen came from Scotland, and the season opened early in April. German ships were sent to take portion of the catch in a fresh state to the markets of Hamburg and other Continental ports. The excellent quality of the herrings which had been landed on the South Coast in the preceding two years was mainly responsible for the great interest shown by outside curers and buyers this year. As a matter of fact, our Southern herring disappointed everybody this year. The quality was much below former years, and though the quantity landed at the various ports was large, the prices realised for the catch were poor owing to this fact.

It is satisfactory to report that Kinsale had a very busy herring season, while a new herring-curing port was opened this year at Helvick Head, Co. Waterford. Curing-stations were made by the County Council, and the necessary leading light was put up by my Department, and eighteen or twenty boats landed their catches there, and got on the average better prices than were realised at the other ports.

The summer herring season in Donegal has just closed, and the results have been very satisfactory on the whole. The quality of the fish was much better than the south coast herring, and sales were readily got on the Continent. The landings at Buncrana were the heaviest for many years, and the value of the catch for the six weeks was over £34,000. The spring mackerel fishing this year was better than last year, owing to a better tone in the American market.

Indications and the reports received by my Department show that the salmon catch for this year will greatly exceed former years. There has been a very heavy run of salmon all along our coast, and the rivers are all well-stocked. The drift and draft-net salmon fishermen have done unusually well this year. I have no doubt that this satisfactory result is due primarily to three causes: The 1924 and 1925 Acts, the better working of the Conservators, who have more money to discharge their duties, and the very valuable co-operation of the Gárda Síochána in the protection of the rivers. I have tried to convey an idea to the House of the general course of oúr fishing industry in the past year, and I think I have shown that there is a general improvement, even though it may be very slight.

Coming to examine the position of the fishermen themselves, I think that most Deputies are acquainted with the position of the fishermen since 1920. I went into great detail on that last year. I have no doubt those Deputies who were in the last Dáil will remember it, and I am sure that new Deputies who want to talk on the Estimate will examine the statement I made, and the Estimate generally. The position of those who persevered in the industry is that they require gear to follow the herring fishing, but they cannot find persons of means who will go surety for them in order to get the nets and ropes they require by means of loans from my Department. To meet this difficulty, and to put them in a position to earn the necessary money to pay off arrears on existing loans, I have secured the consent of the Minister for Finance to a special scheme on the lines suggested by the Fishery Conference for supplying the required fishing-gear to men who have proved honest and industrious in the past, and who have done their best to repay their loans. This assistance from the State will not, however, get over all the difficulties of the position. In order to extend our fleet of herring-boats, many vessels now in the hands of my Department should be at work. To man these we need trained deep-sea fishermen, who know their business, and who are ready to go to any fishing-port where there is fishing work to be done. Unfortunately, my experience of many of our fishermen who cry out for bigger and more powerful boats is that they lack the necessary training, and are not willing to go far from their homes to carry on fishing. It is quite useless to put into the hands of such a fisherman a costly and large vessel, which will only be employed a few months in the year. The earnings would not pay the interest on the loan. We need specially-trained fishermen if we are to develop our herring fishing, and to obtain this supply I hold the State must set about the training of our youths. This training must be carried on over a period of years, and must obviously be done principally at sea. I am in consultation with the Minister for Education on this matter, about which it is possible that a supplementary estimate will be submitted to the House this year.

While dealing with the subject of our fishermen, it is perhaps appropriate that I should make some remarks about the findings of the Sea Fisheries Conference which was called together by me last March. The very careful consideration given by the gentlemen who sat on this conference is reflected by the report which they presented to me and which I laid on the Table of the House.

Coming to the Estimates proper, I said I would only deal with one or two, and I will deal with the others when questions are raised on them. The one that is most canvassed is fishery development. This year there is a reduction as compared with 1926-27 of £6,350. The total sum estimated for this sub-head last year was £34,025, but of this sum only £24,345 was spent, leaving an unspent balance on the Estimate of £9,680. It was, therefore, thought prudent to ask the House for a reduced Vote for this service this year, but, as I have indicated, it will probably be necessary to ask for a Supplementary Vote later on.

One of the important sub-heads of fishery development is loans. It will be observed that the sum required for loans is put down at £7,000. Since this Estimate was prepared last November, considerable changes have occurred, and, as I have already stated, I am now arranging for issuing loans under a special scheme which will necessitate my coming to the Dáil later on for a further Vote of about £7,500 to meet the outlay—that is under the scheme put up to me in the interim report of the Fisheries Conference. The amount allocated for loans last year was £7,000, but of this sum only £4,757 was actually disbursed. The reason why this service is not more fully availed of by fishermen who own, or wish to acquire large boats or motor vessels, is due to the fact that they cannot get the solvent sureties which we demand. Already these men are heavily involved, perhaps in past loans, or they may have been come down upon as sureties for loans, and are not prepared to give their names again to support prospective borrowers. The special scheme recommended by the Fishery Conference, and adopted by the Government, is designed to overcome that particular deadlock. Under that scheme loans are now being advanced to fishermen-owners of large-decked vessels, who have in the past honestly tried to meet their liability to the State. These loans are limited in each case to a sum of £150, and are for the supply of nets only. One of the chief reasons which weighed with me in adopting this departure from the position I always adopted, of insisting on solvent securities, was the fact that if we did not do that this year the greater profits of the herring fishing would go to the Scotch and English vessels. I do not know if Deputies would wish me to say much about the inland fishing. If necessary I could say something about the subventions to the conservators.

Could the Minister tell the House what was the value of the inland fisheries last year?

Mr. LYNCH

If that was raised by way of a question afterwards, perhaps it might be better. The first item in the inland fisheries is grants to conservators and local fisheries associations, £4,500. That is for paying grants to the boards whose income under recent legislation has not benefited sufficiently by the rates on the fisheries valued in their areas to enable them to carry on the work of protection that we hoped they might. As Deputies know, under the Act of 1925 these boards were given power to levy rates on fishery proprietors. Many of these fisheries have not been valued at all. Some have not been adequately valued, but the matter is now being seen to. I hope this will be a diminishing sum to be voted in future years. However, some fisheries will require this assistance, as within their areas they cannot hope to get such subventions from the rates on valued fisheries to enable them to carry out their duties as we would like.

There are in addition, hatcheries. We maintain three salmon hatcheries, one at Lismore, one at Glenties, and a new one near Navan, which was established last year. The combined capacity of the hatcheries is eight and a quarter million ova per annum. The salmon and trout fry are distributed amongst the rivers in the various districts. The upkeep of these hatcheries last year was, I think, something over £1,800. This year we hope to be able to carry on with £1,250. My Department also makes grants of small amounts for several local hatcheries which are supplied with ova from the State hatcheries. The fry, when developed, is liberated into the rivers on which these small hatcheries are situate. I think a good many Deputies will know what the State fisheries are. The Department controls the fishing rights on the Owenea in Donegal, and on a few rivers in Mayo, and elsewhere. These are not a losing proposition, as we get back from rod lettings more than we expend.

Many of the Deputies know what the Vote for rural industries is about. We maintain these in the Gaeltacht where the Department has a staff of, I think, 58 manageresses and instructors at 42 centres where these industries are carried on. They are mostly in Tirconaill, Mayo, Galway, and I think a few in Cork.

Does the Minister include net-making?

Mr. LYNCH

No. I would like to say that for some time past my Department has been carrying on this service under a disadvantage by reason of the lack of a competent inspector. Several months ago, I think before Christmas, we invited applications for that post, but none of the candidates who came before the Selection Board possessed the required qualifications. A further effort is now being made, as I understand the Civil Service Commissioners are advertising the post. It is hoped that a man who will possess technical knowledge of the weaving and knitting trade, as well as other qualities of business capacity and driving force, may be obtained. The efforts which I had hoped to be able to set going for the revival of the Irish homespun industry and opening a central sales depot for the classes in existence have been held up because we have not been able to get a suitable man to fill that post.

I mentioned last year that we hoped to dispose of the Galway toy factory to some private person who would be interested in working the industry. Since then we have succeeded in doing so to a Galway man, who is carrying on the industry more or less on the same lines, at least with the same purpose as it was carried on in the past. The same type of article is being produced.

Before concluding my statement I would like to refer to one other matter, because, although it is not mentioned in the Estimate, it received a certain amount of publicity at the time, and, in the south of Ireland especially, was looked on with a great deal of interest. I refer to the Cork fish market. About a year ago at my representation the City Commissioner in Cork fitted up a portion of the hay market in Albert Quay for a fish market. The work cost a few hundred pounds. At the request of my Department, and as a trial only, the Dublin Trawling Company sent a steam trawler to Cork weekly with her catch and the Company's salesman auctioned it. There were weekly landings made during the month of March last, and for a time competition amongst the retail fish trade in Cork yielded a satisfactory price. Unfortunately a Press campaign was started about profiteering amongst the retail fish trade in Cork. I have no sympathy with profiteers, but at the same time in dealing with a very perishable commodity like fresh fish, I think retailers are entitled to some extra profit on their sales, in order to cover the loss on the considerable amount of unsold fish which has to be thrown away.

At any rate, as a result of the campaign, there seemed to develop amongst the Cork fishmongers a boycott of the fish market. They ignored the market, and it was necessary to stop running the steam trawler. In order to induce the trawling company to continue landing the catch at the market, and in the hope that there would be a change of mind among the fishmongers of Cork, I offered, having got the sanction of the Minister for Finance, to indemnify them up to a certain sum against loss, and give them a subsidy to organise the distribution of fish in the inland towns, like Fermoy, Mallow, Mitchelstown, and Tralee, where very little retail fish trade is carried on. Unfortunately, the company could not see its way to do so. I do not think that the project should be allowed to drop. We need to develop, if we are to develop at all, our home market, and it is rather a slur on a maritime country like ours that we imported 84,000 cwt. fresh fish since last year. I am, therefore, exploring every avenue with the object of re-opening the Cork market, and, if our native enterprise fails, I fear we will have to look to foreigners to make a beginning there. There have been, even before this was mooted first by the Dublin Steam Trawling Company, certain tentative proposals put up by outside companies, anxious to establish a market in Cork, and prepared to develop inland markets in the South of Ireland.

To all Deputies who are interested in fisheries the statement of the Minister is, like most of his statements made during the last four years, highly interesting, but highly unsatisfactory. In talking of the inland fisheries, I do not know whether he gave the figures for the last period during which he has the information, but I think the amount is stated to be about two millions. In any case, when the Fisheries Bill was introduced two years ago, by which the inland fisheries are now regulated, it was stated by the Minister that the potential value of inland fisheries, those for salmon and trout, was about £5,000,000. I can bear witness to the progress of the Minister's Department in regard to the administration of that Act, because on the Owenea in Tirconaill, where they have a hatchery, the fishing is not alone improved, but the hatchery is supplying fry to rivers and lakes throughout the country. That, I think, is a fine tribute to the Department. If the value of the inland fisheries is now estimated at two millions, it can be extended to five millions, and, if the Department does so, it will have done a great service for the country.

The question of the sea fisheries, which has been raised in this House for the past four years on the Estimates, particularly with reference to the equipment supplied to fishermen, was also included in the terms of referance submitted to the Gaeltacht Commission. In that regard the Commission reported that they were unable to go into the question sufficiently to make any recommendations. The question was left there, but a member of the Commission, the one man on the Commission who understood this question perfectly, in an addendum to the report, stated that the deep sea fishing of Ireland was, as described here in the past four years, in a chaotic state, and that the one way of putting it on its feet was by deep sea fishing. I do not wish to detain the Dáil with a long statement on the question, and I would refer Deputies who may be interested in the matter to the Official Reports containing debates on the subject in the last four years. They will find completely set out there the opinion of his House and the means by which these difficulties could be got over.

So urgent did this question seem to Deputies who live on the western seaboard that we came together and set up a Committee to inquire and make suggestions and to put forward plans for the benefit of the Minister for Fisheries. As a result of several months' investigation we drew up proposals and placed them before the Minister, who, at that period, was unable to make any representations to the Government, and in the following year the Gaeltacht Commission was dealing with the matter. Perhaps I would save time if I read recommendations which we put forward. They deal with an experimental scheme for the development of sea fishing as submitted to the Minister for Fisheries by a Committee of Dáil Deputies. The document proceeds:—

We have discussed the subject of deep sea fishing and have come to the following conclusions:—

(a) That an experiment in deep sea trawling off the West Coast of Ireland would be the best means of setting up the fishing industry on a sound basis. The inshore seasonal fishing, which is at present in a state of chaos, would be improved by this system, and the fishermen who are now only employed partly on fishing would be converted into whole-time trained fishermen.

(b) Six or eight modern steam trawlers, with a skipper and engineer for each, should be chartered for a period of 6 months; a crew of fishermen selected from different fishing centres by the fishermen themselves should be employed to man these boats, and sent to the fishing grounds to learn the system of trawling, and, where feasible, of long line fishing. The boats for this experiment should sail from ports such as Burtonport, Killybegs, in Tirconnell; Westport in Mayo, and Galway, where railway facilities exist at the port for transit of fish.

(c) The remuneration of the fishermen who should be employed on the share system would include all the proceeds of the sale of the fish after deducting the head charges. Arrangements should be made with all local towns served by the railways for such quantities of fish as they would require at the wholesale price obtainable for the fish, plus the cost of carriage, the remainder of the catch to be disposed of in the best market available, and for this purpose a first-class manager should be employed.

To give effect to the scheme the Minister for Fisheries should be asked to make the necessary arrangements for chartering boats and efficiently carrying out the arrangements outlined above.

Teachtaí who represent fishing areas should place their services and local knowledge at the disposal of the Minister, so that the scheme might be carried out under the most favourable circumstances to ensure its success.

I have only a few words to add. As the Minister has said, it would be waste of public money to place up-to-date fishing boats of a large type in the hands of our fishermen at present. It is not, indeed, the fault of our present Minister. Like the heir to bankrupt Irish estates, he came into a heritage of bad work when he took over the work of the Congested Districts Board dealing with fisheries. It is useless to peddle with this problem. Loans for nets, or for inadequate boats or other purposes, are merely sops, and are useless. That has been proved in the history of the Department for the last four years. To get over that difficulty we propose to bring from England or Scotland a number of the most up-to-date trawlers, anything from four to twelve, as the Minister may desire, and from the different fishing centres to take crews recognised by the fishermen themselves. They take the full proceeds of the fish caught, less the charges paid to the skipper and engineer. We place a manager at each port to take charge of the fish from the vessels coming in there and find a market for them.

We accomplish three things by that. In the first place, we prove what we had believed, that the fish are there in abundance, and we know that boats from Aberdeen, Hull, Grimsby and Fleetwood are daily in evidence off the coast of Donegal and as far down as the coast of Clare. The second thing we would accomplish would be that we would train our fishermen, and I would guarantee for the men of the northwest that if trained there would be no better fishermen. They are hardy, industrious and enduring, and would make excellent fishermen. Further after a few months of this experiment we could prove to the commercial world what we believe could be done for this industry, that it would become a commercial success, and when it became necessary to supply more boats we would have the trained fishermen for the establishment of a proper fishing system. I should say that the Minister in very difficult circumstances did his best, and his Department did its best, and I had many reasons for being in touch with the Minister on this subject.

The value of the fish caught last year was something like £440,000, and according to the judgment of the best men in this trade, men acquainted with it from their boyhood, the potential value is at least £10,000,000, that is twice the value of the inland fisheries. That fish, to the value of £440,000, instead of being brought into this country, is carried by the boats to England and Scotland. I think the scheme I have mentioned should provide the nucleus upon which the Minister could work, and which he should put up to the Minister for Finance. We were told last year when the Estimates were being discussed that the Minister for Finance would not supply the money for making these fisheries efficient. Were I the Minister for Finance I certainly would not supply 1d. until a scheme had been put up that had prospects of success. I submit that can be claimed for the scheme that I have outlined, and I hope the Minister will avail of it.

Would I be in order in moving a reduction of the Minister's salary with a view to calling attention to a certain matter?

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

No, the Deputy will have to give notice.

I wish to associate myself with Deputy O'Doherty in calling attention to one or two matters I consider of immediate urgency with regard to this industry. I will confine myself to these matters as we have a promise from the President that after the Recess legislation will be introduced to amalgamate this Ministry with that of the Land Commission, and also with respect to the control of the Gaeltacht. The first matter to which I wish to call attention is: what has the Minister done to carry out the urgent recommendation of the Fishery Conference which reported in April last? The second is: what has he done with reference to a speech he delivered on the eve of the Fishery Conference? Dealing with the question of recasting of loans, the Minister said that:

"He had placed a scheme before the Minister for Finance who, he was grateful to say, had sanctioned it, and the Executive Council agreed to the recasting of loans representing a 20% increase on 1914 prices for boats, engines and nets. It was proposed to write down any loans granted prior to 1917, as the borrowers in such cases had the advantage of three or four prosperous years fishing. The amount involved in writing down the loan advances was £33,447 approximately, and the reduction in the sum collectible on the advances so written down was about £37,850. He considered this an extremely generous gesture by the Government to the fishermen, and he believed it would put new heart into them to exert themselves in the development of the industry."

I would like to know whether that speech was delivered deliberately by the Minister to spike the Fishery Conference and not give it the opportunity of dealing with this grave question of boats valued at pre-war prices?

I say if the Minister did that deliberately, and has done nothing since to assist the fishermen in this matter that he referred to on the eve of the meeting of the Fishery Conference, it calls for our severest censure. It is all very well to put up new schemes to the Minister; it is all very well to put new schemes to the fishermen. But I submit it is useless either to put up schemes to the Minister or to the fishermen unless, and until, this matter is finally disposed of. That is the millstone that hangs round the necks of the Irish fishermen. They will not undertake or adopt any new scheme until this matter of the revaluation of the boats and gear issued to them is dealt with. They do not know what their commitments are until this is finally disposed of, and their alarm is still greater with regard to this matter in view of the speech delivered on the eve of the meeting of the Fishery Conference. That speech can be read in two ways. First, that the arrangement for the valuation had been made, or was going to be made. You can read it up and down, whatever way it suits, but whichever way it was meant to operate there is no doubt that it was misleading, inasmuch as the Minister has done nothing in the matter from that day to this.

The second matter to which I wish to call the attention of the Committee as of immediate importance is this: On 28th April the Fishery Conference reported to the Minister a matter which I consider of immediate importance and urgency, and I look upon that with a still more serious view in face of the fact that the Minister has just now said that the prospect in January and for this season generally so far as herring fishing was concerned was bright, that in fact the January fishing was a success so far as quantity was concerned but not quality; and that the summer fishing, particularly in Donegal and some other places, was highly successful and amounted to the sum of £34,000 in value.

In that connection I may mention that on the day of the formation of the Executive Council when the President proposed the Minister for Fisheries I objected to his nomination, and in reply to what I said the President stated that progress was being made in this matter; that he had been looking up returns and he saw that the price of fish sold was on the increase. I should like to know from the Minister this afternoon what figures were meant by the President and what document did he put into the President's hand, or did that document represent the amount of fish actually caught by fishermen, taken in by Irish boats and delivered on the Irish coast and cured and sold from there, or did it include the entire amount of fish that was caught by boats of all nationalities and delivered on our shores? I want an answer to that. But in connection with the main matter, the Fishery Conference reported on 28th April to the Minister that:—

"In view, however, of the imminence of the spring mackerel and summer herring fishing, and the favourable anticipations of their success, it is considered that immediate action in a preliminary way is desirable for the purpose of the fitting out of that portion of the existing Saorstát fishing fleet which, although now out of commission, can be rapidly mobilised so as to enable it to share with the English and Scottish fishing fleet in securing its proportion of the fishing harvest. To this end the Conference, after careful discussion, has approved of the following recommendation, namely:—That in the opinion of the Conference, and in view of the disorganisation of the industry, due to the slump following the war, and especially due to the recent unsettled state of the country, it is necessary, if the industry is to be kept going, that in the coming financial year loans for the provision of fishing gear should be given to the owners of large (decked) fishing boats on the security of the borrower, the boat and the gear, and without additional personal security, in cases where the applicants have been found diligent and honest in their previous dealings. In making this recommendation the Conference desires to lay stress on the present bright outlook for the industry."

I need not read the remaining portion. On the 26th or 28th, or somewhere in the last week of April, the Fishery Conference, owing to the favourable prospect of the summer herring fishery, made that recommendation to the Minister.

I want to know from the Minister what he has done with regard to that recommendation. He had not time in April, but what did he do during the month of May to carry out that recommendation made by the Fishery Conference composed of practical fishermen who drew these deductions and foresaw very valuable summer fishing? The prospects of highly successful fishing were acknowledged in the Minister's own returns, and I want to know what did the Minister do to carry out that recommendation, or did he do anything? He mentioned the sum of £34,000 as the value of the fish caught and landed on the Donegal Coast. I want to know what proportion of that £34,000 was caught by Irishmen and was the produce of Irish boats.

Arising out of the report, I want to refer to one or two matters. One would be disposed, listening to the Minister, to think he was not at all really serious in the views he is alleged to hold. He asked the House to believe that it is essential to develop the home market. Is the Minister aware that owing to the cost of transport it is useless to think of developing the Irish fish market? I shall give the House and the Minister one or two figures to demonstrate that. The charge on a cran of fish from Howth to Hamburg, practically 1,000 miles, is 4/- approximately. The charge from Howth to Mallow, 140 miles, is 24/-. The charge from Liverpool to New York is 5/- for a barrel. The rates on the railways have been increased upon fish alone 100 per cent., whereas the value of the fish, on the market, has only increased 10 per cent. These are the immediately urgent things, so far as the fishermen are concerned, and with them I shall only deal, because, as we are promised, the entire question can be re-opened later on when legislation is introduced.

Representing a maritime constituency, I rise to say a few words on this question. I was glad to hear from the Minister that there was a general improvement in this industry. I do not know that I can fully agree with him. Possibly I can do so on the question of inland fisheries, in which there has been a decided improvement, but I am not aware that there has been a general improvement in the deep-sea fisheries. I still fancy that we are only touching the fringe of this question, that it will require considerably more money than is provided in this Estimate to be able to approach this question from the right angle. But I am hopeful of the future, from what the Minister has said with regard to special terms for loans and special schemes, and the training of our young men to enable them to enter for deep-sea fishing and to be able to follow the fish from one quarter to the other and round them up, so that they can go right around and back to where they started from. I hope that after a year or two the Minister can safely come to the House and ask for an increased Estimate in order to make this industry a profitable one for the country.

There are a few matters concerning my own constituency that I would like to refer to. The in-shore fishermen, who cannot go far from the land, do very useful work and provide us with a good deal of fish, but in my own district they have difficulty in landing their little catches. If the Minister could finance the building of little piers or slips where they could moor their boats and then land their catches it would be a great asset and a great encouragement to them. Another matter that is of serious importance to them is the fact that trawlers come in close to the coast line. So far we have only had one "Murchu," and I would advocate having two or three of that type of vessel to protect our coasts from the foreign trawler.

Deputy McMenamin has referred to the question of the revaluation of boats purchased from 1917 to 1923. The Minister has dealt with the difficulty of getting people to take boats now, because they cannot get sureties. I am sure that several Deputies know that there was no difficulty in getting sureties in times gone by, but from 1917 to 1923 the people borrowed and purchased these boats at the peak price, and immediately after trade collapsed and they were not in the position to repay. A revaluation would meet this. I will refer to two instances in my own constituency that may be known to the Minister. One boat was purchased in, I think, December, 1916, and is excluded from this revaluation, and another, purchased in 1924, is also excluded. There may be other cases, but these two are known to me, and I would like the Minister to inquire into them and see that they get the same terms as those who purchased from 1917 to 1923.

In my election campaign recently a matter that struck me in Baltimore and Kinsale was the sight of girls grading, cleaning and packing fish. They came from Deputy O'Doherty's and Deputy White's country, and some of them came from Scotland. I would like to see a training school established in my constituency where the young girls along the coast could be taught to handle, clean, and grade the fish caught there. I do not know if rural industries are being carried on now, outside of Glengariff, but I think one of the things that should be taught by means of these rural industries is the manufacture of nets, ropes, lines, and such things. That would be a great asset to the poor people and would be an all-round general help. These are the only items I wish to refer to, and I hope that the Minister will take note of them, particularly with reference to the re-valuation of these two boats. There may be other boats in the same position, but I know that these two are in a very awkward position over this matter.

The criticisms that I have to offer on this Vote are very much the same as those generally offered last year, and they have been dealt with in detail by Deputy O'Donovan. I feel that the Minister could, with very great advantage to the industry and the good name of the Department, assist reasonable works of improvement at various places along the coast. I am not advocating the erection of ornamental piers or the lavish expenditure of money on schemes that would not be economic, but I do feel, and I think most of us feel, that very good cases are being put up from time to time for works, involving comparatively small expenditure, for which, unfortunately, money has not been forthcoming. I suggest that very much of the foundation that is necessary to develop the industry proper might be found by providing the facilities that are essention if it is to thrive as we hope it will.

I endorse what has been said with regard to the protection of the fisheries. I think that what is being done is entirely inadequate. I go further and say that the fines that have been imposed on poachers are absolutely ridiculous. I know some cases where poachers, brought into the constituency represented by the West Cork Deputies, were fined purely nominal sums of 10/- and £1—I am referring to the sea fisheries—whereas in my opinion the punishment merited for the robbery that is being carried on by foreign trawlers would be the total confiscation of the boats and gear, in addition to a substantial period of imprisonment for those concerned. I do not know what the difficulties may be in connection with that, but I do know that there is a feeling that the law affords no protection whatever to the local fishermen and that a very radical revision of the attitude taken up on that matter, and of the decisions that have been given, is called for.

I endorse what has been said with regard to the question of loans. The Minister has not dealt with the matter fully. Perhaps he will when he is replying. It has been said that the legacy that has been left in the shape of unpaid loans, called for at a time when there was no opportunity of meeting them, has been one of the very severest set-backs that the industry has had to encounter. I feel that the opportunity for the real development of the industry will come when the fishermen are given the cleanest possible sheets, with a view to enabling them to make a new start. There is great need for development of the industry on a large scale, and the finances afforded for this purpose have been entirely inadequate. I hope, when this Estimate comes to be discussed again in twelve months time, that some substantial record of progress will be before us and that the questions that have been raised in criticism of this Vote will not crop up again as a result of lack of attention in the interval.

Dr. WHITE

When I was coming to the House to-day a Deputy friend of mine said to me: "Have you a grievance against the Minister for Fisheries?" I said: "I have not." He seemed surprised at that. Considering the amount of money allocated to the Minister, I venture to say that he has done exceedingly well. He has done good work in Co. Waterford. In Dunmore East the Government have erected a curing house. They have allocated badly needed plots in that area. In Helvick a harbour was built at a cost of about £47,000. It was finished only about 1921, and it was lying practically derelict.

The Ministry of Fisheries have allocated plots there again. They have supplied the water to the vessels coming in there, and they have put up lights on the pierhead of Ballinagunna, a small fishing village close to Helvick, which is in the Gaelteacht, and which is sharing in the prosperity coming to Helvick owing to the constructive works carried out there by the Ministry of Fisheries.

With regard to the inland fisheries, I might say that in Clonmel a large amount of ova was distributed there during recent years by the Ministry of Fisheries, with the result that there has been a great take of salmon this year. Unhappily, the vagaries of the fish are not well understood. I think it was the Duke of The Abruzzi, the great oceanographer, who has given us any up-to-date information about the fish. In Dunmore this year very extensive preparations were made for the herring fisheries, but unhappily the vagaries of the herring came into evidence. At the beginning of the season there was considerable success, but in a very short time the fish disappeared.

Whatever was lacking as regards herring fishing in Dunmore and County Waterford generally was more than compensated for by the magnificent salmon season. This year was the best season within living memory, as far as salmon fisheries were concerned in the Waterford harbour and in the county generally. I think that is a feather in the caps of the Gárda Síochána. For that I think a great deal of credit is due also to the Fishery Conservators and to the water bailiffs working under them. I respectfully suggest to the Minister for Fisheries that the close season is the time to issue instructions to the Gárda Síochána and to the water bailiffs to redouble their efforts to prevent the poaching and the killing of salmon. I think at the present moment there is a little misunderstanding about this. If a poor devil is found catching salmon during prohibited hours during the salmon season he is rigorously prosecuted and fined, and very rightly fined, but the man who goes with his sprong or pike and sticks a salmon going up the river to spawn should be rigorously dealt with, because the amount of damage he does is about one million times more than the damage done to the fish during the fishing season. Waterford is a very important fishing centre. The curing of fish has been going on there from time immemorial, practically.

Ever since St. Brendan discovered America hundreds of years before our friend Columbus went there, the Irish fishermen and the Irish mariners penetrated to all corners of the then known world. I have great respect for the name O'Brien. I have greater respect now than ever, because Commodore O'Brien did an act that I for one know did not receive the due recognition it deserved from the Irish people. He covered many strange seas in a small boat; that boat was manned by two of a crew, including himself, and that boat was built in Ireland; best of all, that boat was built in Cork. The Minister for Fisheries deserved great credit. The Ministry are supplying boats to our fishermen. I happen to be interested in several that were supplied in Passage and round about there. They are excellent boats, and their builders deserve very great credit. We were discussing here last night the question of Haulbowline. The question of the deep sea fisheries has just been raised, and I do not know whether it would be economical to build some of these deep sea trawlers or drifters at Haulbowline. The suggestion might be ruled out of order.

We will have to close up thee electrical fittings factory then.

Dr. WHITE

There is one great problem that we will always have to keep in our minds in the Dáil. That problem is common to all nations, but to some it is more acute than to others. That is the question of unemployment. I have a suggestion to make to the Minister for Fisheries, and I hope he will be able to fall into line with it to some extent. It will not be a cure for unemployment in toto, but it will certainly do some good. On looking down the Estimates I find that there is only £200 allocated for the development of shell fish. If we go down to the city here and indulge in a few oysters or lobsters we know what we will be charged for them. I would make a suggestion to the Minister for Fisheries. We have our salmon and trout hatcheries. Why not our lobster hatcheries? I understand that these lobster hatcheries have been experimented with. They are beyond the experimental stage in the United States of America, in France and in Norway. We all know the very popular brand of lobsters that comes from the north of Europe. Furthermore, I understand that the French people, especially in times of plenty, when they capture the lobsters in the lobster pots, put the pots back into natural reservoirs or build off an inlet of the sea. The lobsters are put into these reservoirs or retreats or whatever you like to call them. They breed there, and in time when the lobster fry is developed into a certain size they are taken to the sea coast. It takes between five and six years before the lobster attains any size, and I understand it dies at the age of about 12 years. That is one of the suggestions I make for the relief of unemployment, and it would help one of the most decent and hard-working sections of the Irish nation—the Irish fishermen.

I am not going to press the Minister to-night for a decided answer about what I suggest concerning the lobsters. I am not going to speak about oysters. I believe that the oysters and the lobster fisheries are capable of great development. But if the Minister for Fisheries does not get the sinews of war, if he does not get sufficient money to do it as he would like to do it, and as the position of affairs requires, well then nobody can blame him. The whole question is a question of £ s. d. I have taken him by storm to-night about the development of the lobster fisheries, but I would respectfully make the suggestion to the Minister for Finance that if there is any Department of State that deserves to have the strings of his money bags unloosed, and the many millions that I know the Minister for Finance possesses poured into its coffers, it is the Ministry of Fisheries. By giving money towards the development of fisheries the Minister for Finance will be doing a great service to the State, and my last request to him is that if he can see his way to consider the question of the intensive culture of the lobster, he should do it. I will not ask for a decided answer now, but I hope that before the season, ends he will give that reply. If necessary, we may have a field day to discuss the shell fisheries of Ireland. I would respectfully make the request that since it was I suggested these hatcheries for lobsters and oysters, the first experiment in this direction will be made in Waterford.

This is to me a very dismal subject. It has been opened in a very dismal way. With the exception of two Deputies, those who have spoken have had a very dismal outlook; with the exception of Deputies O'Doherty and White the speakers were discussing what is, in effect, the complete, tragic and dismal break down of a great Government Department, vital to the interests of the people who live along our seaboard. It was only when I heard Deputy Dr. White referring to Columbus that I realised the debate was assuming a change. I do not think Columbus was ever in it with either Deputy White or Deputy O'Doherty because they have both discovered what no man before ever discovered in Ireland, that the Fishery Department is the best. We give them great credit for their discovery, but it lies with them and them only.

We had a statement from the Minister remarkable for some of the things it included. We had figures relating to tons of fish that have been caught and exported from this country; but the Minister's statement was far more remarkable by reason of the things it did not cover. Deputies O'Donovan and Murphy struck the keynote of the difficulty. Along our coast can be found the real source of difficulty. The real difficulty above all others is the foreign invader who comes to our shores day after day and takes away fish. I would like to have some explanation from the Minister as to this remarkable omission from his statement. Can the Minister say how many thousands of pounds he has got by way of convictions against these foreign trawlers and how much money has been collected? What has it cost to get the convictions and what steps have been taken to get over the legal difficulty that surrounds their recovery? Why have we not been told something in that connection?

Fines amounting to thousands of pounds have been imposed by way of penalty. The Minister should report to us whether those fines have been obtained and if he has been able to recover them. What has he done towards remedying the position? Surely this is a matter of vital importance to the people living along our sea coast. I represent a division which, taken from Crosshaven to Ardgroom, is about 110 miles long. Along that sea coast lies the greatest wealth of West Cork or Cork County, one of the finest seaboards you can find in Europe. That seaboard, with the great wealth it contains, is being destroyed every day by foreign invaders. The Minister knows that, yet up to the present he has not even endeavoured to cope with the situation. In his remarkable statement he has omitted to say one word about it. He has secured certain convictions, but is unable to enforce them, and he was afraid to tell the House of that fact.

We must get rid of the foreign invader. Somebody will tell you that there is at present a difficulty in executing the warrants of the Free State in England and Wales. But those are difficulties that a little intelligence and a little diligence would have got rid of long ago, had any care been then taken to get rid of them. We are told we cannot touch boats beyond the three mile limit. We can as of right control our own fishermen whether they be three or ten miles. We can also control the foreign boats if there is a little common sense used. Our fishermen are prevented from going into the North Sea. An agreement is binding on this country as well as on France and other countries. We have a Minister for Foreign Affairs, I understand. Why not send him to France and Belgium with the object of seeking a reciprocal agreement, and so keep their boats ten miles off our coast? If that were done there would be a new era for the fishing industry. Common sense suggests what must be done.

How does the Minister observe the fishery laws? Does he send round the Civic Guard to arrest boats? Have they the power to arrest boats? Have they the powers under the 1878 Act that the coastguards had in former days? The members of the Royal Irish Constabulary never had them, and I am sure the Minister knows that the Civic Guards have not got them. I think here and there the Civic Guards have carried out an illegal arrest. What has the Minister done to give them adequate authority? What has been done to collect the fines that were imposed? What has been done to safeguard fisheries or to enable regulations that would be of some use to be set up? Matters have been allowed to drift too long, and our fishermen have been allowed to drift into a state of penury without one word of assistance from the Department.

Deputies White and O'Doherty think that this Department is the best in the world. The policy of drift must be stopped, and once stopped there would be no difficulty in forging ahead. Let us enter into a treaty with France and Belgium; they are bound in fairness to agree to it. We are not a hostile Government, and they are bound to give us some treaty similar to what we have given them.

Deputy Murphy referred to small fines being imposed. I had a job thrown on to me of defending one of the persons charged with an offence against the fishery laws. The man was seized within a few yards off the Fastnet Rock. He was a Frenchman, and he was caught red-handed, taking in crayfish. In order to save himself and his boat from illegal seizure, I had to consent to a fine. To be fined was far better in his case than to be laid up for a fortnight. He was fined the noble sum of £1 and £1 costs. What happened? There was hardly a Government official in the whole district who did not ask me if I would take back the fine and the costs, and I have them still as a tribute to the Minister for Fisheries. Our fishery laws have been brought to a state of chaos, and our people have been brought to a state of destitution and penury. Not one word in regard to this has been uttered by the Minister in the course of his statement.

Why should we not have been told of these facts? Am I right in saying that the Civic Guards are not yet entitled to take up the duties of fishery officers? Am I right in saying that these fines have broken down? Why are we not told something about these things? Is this House to be kept in the background for all time? We are entitled to know what is being done to put these matters right. I can tell the House what is done. Coming on to the election he had a number of decrees against a number of brokendown fishermen, poor devils who could not pay their way, and against their unfortunate sureties. These people had been between the devil and the deep sea during the last four or five years. They got a very pleasant statement coming on to the General Election. The execution of decrees was suspended. I tell the Minister this, that his Department within the last week sent to the State solicitors instructions telling them "the stay is off; the election is over, and you have got to pay your decrees now."

That is a lie.

Why did not the Minister tell us anything about that? He has tried to drive out of the trade the few remaining fishermen that we have. He did not tell us anything about that, but I tell him that is what he has done. During the last week-end I saw these letters in my office.

Produce them.

I will hand them to you any time you like.

Mr. LYNCH

I say that statement should not be allowed to be made; the statement that the Department held off the ordinary work of collecting in accordance with its duty loans due to the Department because a General Election was coming on, and that now we have declared that the stay is off and to go on with the work. I say that statement is not true, and if I were outside this House dealing with it I would use a different term to describe it. I thought the names would be supplied.

During the last week-end I saw those letters myself, and I undertake on my word of honour to bring copies of those letters to the House and let the House judge between us. This has been going on since the House sat. I saw the letters in my office during the week-end, and there is no use in denying it. The Minister will get copies of the letters from me.

Bring them to the House.

There is just another matter that I wish to deal with. It may be taken that our principal markets for cured herrings are Germany and Russia. The German market is broken down. I do not know where the fault lay for that. It may be at this side, or it may be due to the Scotch and other buyers who came across here, but, at any rate, it has broken down hopelessly. This year on the west coast of Cork the market has proved a failure, so far, at all events, as the earlier spring fish are concerned. Russia is still out of action. Is there any reason why the Minister would not put the energies of his staff to work and restore our fishing industry for our remaining customer, the only one that is left—Russia? We have nothing to say against Russia, and we may have nothing to say for it, but I suggest that wherever we have a foreign market we ought to take steps to preserve it. It lies on the Department to do all in its power, no matter whether we are in friendly relations with a particular country or not, to preserve a market if it is there for our produce.

There are just a few points that I wish to deal with. After all, observation is a lot better than any theory. I happen to have been born on the seaboard, and I live on the Shannon. One part of the district has to depend on the deep sea fishing, and the other depends, more or less, on the inland fisheries. The remark of the Minister that we are a long way behind in the fishing industry is one that I certainly endorse, because when I was a small boy I remember thirty or forty canoes, a real fleet of fishing boats, leaving Kilkee at night. Now, unfortunately, there are scarcely any there at all. The trade is an off and on one. Some four or five boats may be there occasionally. The Minister made another remark to the effect that we should eat all the fish we can catch. I remember that in the fall of last year I could get a present of all the fish that I wanted. I presume that about the same time, two years ago, if the Minister happened to be in the same locality —he seemingly was after making great promises to the fishermen—he could get ten times more fish at that time than I could. I do not mean to say now that the Minister promised anything that would be impossible, but I simply mention this as a joke, that undoubtedly we cannot eat all the fish that we do catch. The same state of affairs exists, and will exist again in the fall of this year, at Rosses, Kilkee, Quilty, and all along the seaboard in that particular portion of Clare. Undoubtedly you cannot possibly consume all the fish you catch, even if you had shipping facilities or motor transport.

I agree with the Minister that there are times during the year when you cannot get fish, but what I say is that when the big hauls of fish are taken there is absolutely no market for them. I have some idea of the trade with the United States, but for the last fifteen or twenty years that trade has been down and out. I have known some men who made a lot of money trading with the United States in cured mackerel. Since I became a member of the House I have been received in the different departments with the greatest courtesy, and I am sure that the Minister for Fisheries will have no objection to give me access to his Department, where I should like to get some information with regard to the German trade that has been referred to. It is the first time that I heard of it, and I was agreeably surprised to learn that we have a trade with Germany. The people in West Clare do not know of it, but I was delighted to hear that there is such a trade in existence. I certainly agree with the Minister for Fisheries that the drift and draught fishermen have undoubtedly improved; the weir men have a splendid catch on the Shannon, but we need not thank the Minister for Fisheries for the prosperous year. It is their own industry and they themselves got the nets.

And caught their fish.

I suppose Almighty God gave them that. I was saying the drift fishermen have done very well, but I would like to point out it is due to their own industry, and I would like to ask the Minister for Fisheries if he would give any help in the way of landing facilities at night. I speak for the drift fishermen as well as the deep-sea fishermen. In a place called Labasheeda the landing stage is almost impossible; the same is true of Kilkee, and Farrihy. Those are the little things I would like to bring before the Department.

There is a lot of talk here about educating fishermen with regard to deep-sea fishing boats. The only education I would advocate here is absolutely practical education. If you are to send out deep-sea fishing boats the same as the Manx and the French fishermen whom I see coming into my own county when they are seeking shelter, that must be demonstrated in a practical manner. Theory and practical education are all right, but until such time as it is shown to the fishermen in absolute practice that they can make money, I am afraid we will be talking about deep-sea fisheries for a long time before we can get any practical benefits. I agree with one of the Deputies who said that poaching should be put down, and for that reason. I do not really know whether it is the Fisheries Conservators or the Department of Fisheries who appoint water-bailiffs or whether the Department of Fisheries subsidise the payment through the Conservators. I am informed that the position of water-bailiff in a very important river in West Glare, between Cooraclare and Doonbeg, is going to be abolished. If that is so, poaching is going to continue, to the detriment of weir-fisheries and the draught fishermen. I also draw attention to Ballyvaughan, where there are very valuable oyster beds which are, like a good deal of industries now, in a very uncertain state. I should like the Minister for Fisheries, or some of his officials, to take this into account. We are not asking for very much. I do not like to be talking about buying motor-gear when I have not the price of an ass and cart. I presume when we are speaking so much of economy those few little things I have brought under your notice will be very useful and a step in the right direction towards reviving an industry which, if not encouraged and fostered, will eventually disappear.

I was not sure when Deputy McMenamin was speaking whether he had moved a reduction in the Vote, but in any case I want to say that I could not possibly support the motion, because that would imply a particular censure upon the Minister for Fisheries. Quite honestly, while there has been, I know, a great deal of talk in the country and dissatisfaction with the work of the Department of Fisheries, I am quite convinced the real fault does not lie with the Minister himself or with his Department. Listening to some criticisms that Deputy Jasper Wolfe made, one would suppose the Minister to be so strange a person that he was deliberately setting himself to ruining his own Department, that he was so careless or hostile to the interests which he was set to guard that he deliberately refrained from taking any steps, even the most obvious ones, either within the Government or in negotiation with outside parties to remove well-known abuses and difficulties. That is a ridiculous position, and nobody, with reasonable common sense, knowing the manner in which the Executive Council has been constituted will suppose anything of that kind could possibly be true. It is a very difficult and technical subject, particularly sea fisheries, and it is very largely, while not entirely, a matter of finance. There are all kinds of difficulties, difficulties of marketing, with the fishermen themselves, with other Departments, and so on, and it would be very unjust, in my judgment, to throw the whole blame for whatever difficulties there may have been, on the Department.

Let me say, I entirely agree with Deputy Dr. White, my colleague from Donegal—Deputy O'Doherty—and others that so far as inland fisheries are concerned, we have nothing but praise for the Ministry. In my own recollection, there has been a most marked improvement in the care and guardianship of these important salmon fisheries since this Department was established, and the present Minister took office. There are various points on the Estimates themselves, on which I would like to ask information. I was, unfortunately, however, absent when the Minister was speaking, and only got back just as he was finishing. Therefore, if I ask for information which he has already given, I hope he will forgive me, and I can see his speech in the report. In the first place, I see in the item for technical and outdoor staff, on page 240 of the Vote, that there seems to be a reduction in the number of inspectors of fisheries. I do not know if he touched upon that in his speech, but I certainly would be glad of some explanation of that, because, on the face of it, I should have said the Department needed more officers on its higher staff than fewer.

I should be glad if he would tell us, if he has not already done so, what exactly is being done with regard to loans for boats and gear. I am aware that there are different views about the old system which was in vogue at the time of the Congested Districts Board. I know it has been the subject of a good deal of criticism, and that perhaps in the long run it did not work very happily, but the system, at any rate, had some advantages which I should like to see continued under the present arrangements. Like many other works of that Board, it had a great advantage in a certain flexibility, and I should like to see that aspect borne in mind in whatever arrangements are made. In the report of the Conference, which the Minister appointed at the beginning of this year. I see on page 12 a reference to the future working of loans. I will not trouble the House with the particulars, with which, of course, the Minister is familiar, but I would like to ask for some information as to what has been done. That is distinct from the specific recommendation submitted to him in the interim report.

Further, I would like to know what is being done on the point of vocational instruction. That again is dealt with in the report, which I would like to quote with your permission, A Chinn Comhairle, as some Deputies may not be familiar with the matter. The Conference reported as follows:

"Next to the need for capital, and the consequent shortage of suitable boats and gear, the chief want from which the Saorstát fishing industry suffers is the lack of technical and vocational training. The State and local authorities provide technical instruction for farmers, wood-workers, builders, printers, commercial and clerical workers and for many other skilled and semi-skilled trade and professional operatives; but of vocational instructions for the fisherman they provided very little in the past, and at present practically none at all. We are of opinion that this is a very great handicap on the fisherman and constitutes a contributory cause of his lack of resourcefulness and self-confidence in the crisis brought about by the slump in the industry and by the difficulties of recent times in Ireland."

They recommend that certain schools be set up at the Downings, County Donegal, in Galway City and in Dingle, Co. Kerry. I should like if the Minister would give us particulars in his reply. I should also be glad if he will give us particulars as to boat building and the reconditioning of boats that have been unfortunately laid up. I know that, for example, in Donegal it is a rather sad sight to see the number of motor boats in particular which have not been used at all, I think, in recent years. There was a reference made to it somewhere in the report of the Conference. My recollection is that it is stated that one-fifth of the total number of boats are at present laid up altogether.

Turning just for a moment to another matter, I notice that on page 241 of the Estimates provision has been made for rural industries, but there does not seem to be any provision made for a co-ordinating head. I am not quite certain whether it is provided for on the other page where there is an item of £400, in respect of rural industries.

Mr. LYNCH

Yes, it is.

Has the appointment been made?

Mr. LYNCH

No, it is being advertised.

The Minister will realise why I raise it. The only other matter to which I specially wish to call attention I think has already been referred to under sub-head G—Sea Fishery Protection Services. I do not propose to add to what has been said on the general position. Of course the difficulties are quite familiar. We know what they are. They are of two kinds. In the first case there are certain legal difficulties of service, not only in regard to French or Belgian boats but also in regard to British boats. There is also the further difficulty of enforcing payment. It would be useful if the Minister would tell us what the position is. I know it is very tangled and technical. Then, assuming that you get that right, there is the question whether further protection is not necessary for the fisheries in the way of an additional cruiser. Unfortunately some things in this country never seem to change. We have had a revolution here. For my own part I am a middleaged person, disposed to a quite life and I am inclined to agree with the statement somebody made during the last election that one revolution is quite enough for a generation, but there are some things which no revolution affects. I do not believe if you had a revolution every year you could change these things at all.

I remember looking through some of my father's papers not very long ago, and I came across an old copy of the "Galway Vindicator" of the early 'sixties. It had been preserved because it contained a report of a lecture which my father delivered in the then newly-established Queen's College, Galway. What interested me particularly was the leading article. The leading article dealt with the "imminent hope of making Galway once more a transAtlantic port." Similarly, when I was thinking of what I should say to-day on this Vote, I came across what I had long ago forgotten—again an old page of a newspaper. It was a cartoon in the now defunct "Weekly Freeman," and it represented two foreign trawlers in the very proper guise of pirates. The first pirate says: "Jolly good fishing here on the Irish coast since we made Scotland too hot for us." The other pirate replies: "Yes, they would be a long time finding us with one wretched little boat." Underneath was a reference to a speech which I had quite forgotten. It was a speech I had made myself in the House of Commons, in which I said that the thing I chiefly complained of was that the Department of Agriculture, which had also charge of fisheries, had to watch the entire coast of Ireland with one vessel, whereas in Scotland they had no less than five. That was in the year 1909. We are in precisely the same position at the present moment. I am not pressing the Minister on this matter now. Probably until those other difficulties which I have referred to have been got over it would be premature to say very much about it. I am not assuming for one moment that he has not borne the subject in mind, and I am not going to assume that he has not taken some steps in the matter. It is a thing in which, if he does propose to take action, he will find very general support.

I should be glad if the Minister would tell us if anything has been done for the cognate industry of kelp-making. I do not find any provision in the Vote for that industry. It is a matter, as the Minister knows, of very great importance to the poorer quarters of the Gaelteacht. It is an industry which is capable of great development, and the Chamber would be interested to know what has been done as regards it.

I hope I may be allowed to end upon a more cheerful note than has been heard here to-day. I think there are quite considerable signs of revival in the sea fishing industry. I may presume to speak with a little authority on this matter, because I can take a bird's eye view of the fishing from my own hall door. The fishing port of the Downings lies just opposite my house in County Donegal, and I can mark the movements of the fishing fleet without going very far from my door. So far as Tirconaill is concerned, at all events, there are signs of much more fishing this year than there has been for a considerable time. I noticed the same thing when I was down on the Swilly at Rathmullen. The same, I understand, is true of the other side of the Swilly. That is all to the good. What is not to the good is that this increased prosperity is being only shared to a relatively small degree by our own fishermen. I think the report states that about sixty-five per cent. of the boats recently employed in the herring fishery are not Irish boats, but Scottish and English boats. I am afraid that that is so. Still, it is well to know that somebody is catching fish on our coast, and it is encouraging in our attempt to build up the industry at home.

I wonder if the Minister is satisfied that all reasonable provision has been made for dealing with this revival when it comes? I do not question the Minister's good will in the matter, but I wonder whether he has been able to do all he would himself wish in that respect. It is a very big task. It involves the provision of boats, the provision of gear and nets, the maintenance of gear and nets and the organisation of markets at home and abroad. Then the question of rail transport has to be attended to. The more the Minister tells us of his difficulties the more support, I am sure, he will find both here and in the country.

This general question of fisheries is a matter of very great importance to all parts of the Gaelteacht. I hope one result of the promise which the President gave some time ago regarding special treatment for the Gaelteacht will be that we shall get the kind of attention for our special problems which the Gaelteacht requires. While it would be out of order for me to dwell upon this aspect, I venture to express the hope that we shall, before long, have definite steps taken to carry out this promise. In particular, I hope it will not be long until we see a Parliamentary Secretary appointed for this purpose, as we will then be able to get ahead with many schemes to which the Gaelteacht is looking forward with great eagerness, and of which the fishing industry is by no means the least important.

I rise to put in a word of caution, following the speech which was delivered by Deputy O'Doherty and his references to the necessity for the equipment of trawlers for the training of crews in the art and science of fishing. The caution I think necessary is that we should be quite sure that we shall not be simply following a circle that has already been marked upon the planet. My recollection in connection with the fishing trade goes back to 1892. I know that the plan now suggested was, in fact, put into operation. Crews and boats were sent from Arklow to the Arran Islands, and the men of the Arran Islands were trained in fishing. Having learned to fish, they were provided with boats. They became quite accomplished fishermen, but then the fishing steadily failed. Now, we have the cry that "something must be done." We may go through the same process and the cry may be repeated in 30 years' time. The reason for the failure is not the absence of fishermen, and it is not even the absence of equipped boats. It was in the past the absence of fish—the steady decline in the supply of fish in the seas—which led to the deprivation of the livelihood of the fishermen, through steady decline of their equipment. We may equip all the boats that are possible; we may train fishermen, and a succession of bad years will bring about a repetition of the cry of "failure in the fishing industry." We have to look a little bit beyond the supply of fishermen and the equipment of boats. That, of course, is necessary. Fishermen have to be equipped before they can take advantage of a good season when it comes. But I think it is going to be a difficult thing to deal with this matter in the spasmodic way that some Deputies have suggested.

I am still of the opinion that I held in 1918 and 1919, and perhaps a good many years before, that the problem of the fishing industry will never be settled until it is treated on a national scale—on the basis of a national service and State insurance; until we consider fishermen in one part of the country as really working on behalf of fishermen in another part, and until the risks inherent in the whole industry are more or less co-operatively shared. I do not want to enlarge upon that point. I desire, however, to point out that the course suggested by Deputy O'Doherty, and, to a smaller degree, by the report, was actually taken and resulted in a certain amount of success, which was followed by failure. That failure was not the fault of the fishermen, and it was not due to lack of equipment, but was attributable to natural causes —lack of fish.

I am rather surprised to hear year after year the statement repeated that there is "every prospect of a good season." There may be a prospect of good prices, but it is sheer folly to say that there is "every prospect of a good season" in March or April, when nobody knows what the chance is of herring or mackerel coming to this coast. It is a gamble from beginning to end, and to speak of prospects seems to me to be a thoughtless expression of people who know nothing about it. I think that there is a great deal in the case that has been made frequently and emphasized with much eloquence by Deputy Jasper Wolfe, taking a particular illustration of the evil. There is much reason for pressing upon the Minister the need for the protection of the in-shore fisheries from poaching, and I have a strong feeling that the protection of those fisheries will probably be the real salvation of the fishing industry; that the fisherman who will only go a little way from the coast may be able to make a considerable living for himself if those in-shore fisheries are protected. There may be difficulty, and I foresee a great difficulty, in entering the fishing industry with a view to competing with the French, Scotch and English drift-net fishermen in the open sea, who have a market and equipment at the back of which is vast capital, very large sums for capital expenditure, and I think it will be a long time before we are able to do very much in that kind of competition. But given a fair protection of the in-shore fisheries, I believe much can be done by the small boat fishermen, and a fair living obtained by two or three men working a small boat, which cannot be obtained as well by seven or eight men working on much larger boats.

That brings us to the point that has been raised so often in the House: What are the steps taken by the Minister for securing a better protection of those fisheries? He has confessed his inability more than once or twice to do the work effectively with one steamer. When he was Minister for Fisheries outside the Executive Council he used to throw up his hands and say: "I can do nothing, the money is not available." Now, in his more responsible position of Minister and member of the Executive Council, he will have to share the blame if the second steamer is not available before the coming of the new fishing season. I put it to the Minister quite directly that it is his responsibility now, equally with that of any other Minister—that he cannot throw it henceforward on the Minister for Finance—to provide this second steamer for the protection of the fisheries on the coast.

A good deal of reference has been made to the report of the Fisheries Conference, and I just want to conclude by expressing the hope that that report will be made available to Deputies. The Minister said it was laid on the Table of the House. No doubt that is true, but I suggest that he should make representations to the Department responsible, so that Deputies may receive copies of the report.

As representative of a fishing constituency I congratulate the House on the manner in which it has discussed this important question. It is in marked contrast with my experience in the past, when I had to come to Dublin as a representative of the Cork County Council on the Council of Agriculture and Fisheries for a number of years. When I raised my voice in that Council on behalf of the deep-sea fishermen I got no support. It is sad to think that in the second most important of our industries, in which we all take a deep interest, there are only 14,000 fishermen and boys engaged. There are 27,000 engaged in the deep-sea fishing in England. Why is there such a falling off here? I will tell the House. The history of our deep sea fishing for centuries was a sad one. As far back as the reign of Henry II. the Irish fisheries were a valuable asset to the English Crown. They leased our fisheries to the Dutch and the Dutch came over and fished in Irish waters. From that time down the fisheries were neglected. It was the chief aim of England to destroy this great industry so as to fill the emigrant ship with brave fishermen who had to leave our shores. That indifference and that covert hostility to our deep-sea fishermen continued. In my part of the country about 50 years ago when the fishermen of Cape Clear were in despair, a philanthropic English lady came to their assistance. The fishermen had looked to the authorities in Dublin for help but got none. They were in despair, but they had a great priest amongst them who interested himself in their behalf and got a loan of £10,000 for the fishermen, so that they could go out and fish alongside the French boats, the Manx boats and the boats from the south of England that were carrying away from the coast of Ireland the golden harvest of the deep. The Cape Clear fishermen accepted the loan with gratitude. But why should the responsibility be put on the Baroness Burdett-Coutts?

It should have been put on the authorities who took no interest in our industries. Despite the existence of the Congested Districts Board and the Council of Agriculture and Fisheries, our fisheries continued to go down. But, thank God, the time has arrived when I can stand up in the Parliament of the nation and plead the cause of the deep sea fishermen to a sympathetic audience. For the first time I realise they have the sympathy and support of every class in the community, and I appeal to the Minister and to the President to remember that our fishermen are the most valuable asset that we have in the country outside agriculture. They are brave and gallant men who went out in the teeth of the German submarines to catch fish to feed their own people, and to send it across Channel. These brave men were taken out of their boats, their boats were sunk, and the crews of a dozen were put into one and they had to steer their way back to Glandore and Baltimore. What did the English Government do for them? At the Council of Agriculture and Fisheries I asked that they should be given boats instead of the ones they lost. Did they give them any boats? No, they spurned them. But we have to-day a Government that is racy of the soil, a Government that I am certain is sympathetic and will take the cause of the fishermen to heart.

Deputy Johnson appealed on behalf of the fishermen with small yawls. I support that appeal. These poor men are trying to keep up the industry along the seaboard, while inroads are made on them by foreign trawlers. I back up the appeal made by Deputy Wolfe, and urge that that question should be tackled, and that the fishermen along the coast who have only small yawls, but who are feeding the nation, should get more protection. As far as the general conditions of the fishing industry are concerned, they were unsatisfactory in the past, but I see a gleam of hope and light. The responsibility of the Government is great, but they have tackled the agricultural industry. According to Deputy Gorey they have done all that was possible for that industry. I appeal to them to do all that is possible for the fishing industry. It is a great asset to the country, and I sincerely hope that the Minister for Fisheries will approach this question in a sympathetic spirit; that he will not be hard on the men who bought boats at a time when prices were high, and when the slump came found it impossible to meet their liabilities. There should be a revaluation of those boats. Fishermen are honest, and will pay their way if they get a chance. The only chance for them is to have a revaluation of the boats. I have had business relations with the fishermen on the Southern coast for 50 years, and never lost a shilling by them. Fishermen are as honest as any other class, and I know that the sympathy of every section will go out to them, that I can go back and tell them that the Dáil knows no difference of party where the interests of the fishermen are concerned.

I would like to remind the Minister for Fisheries that a number of men are making a living by fishing at Youghal and Ballycotton. I was down in these districts some time ago, and I was not ashamed to make promises. I told the fishermen that at the earliest opportunity I would bring their case before the Minister. I now ask the Minister to pay attention to these two places, and to do what he can to help the fishing industry there. I would also like to state that the Blackwater is within a mile of my house. That river is teeming with fish this year. I do not know whether the Minister for Fisheries, the Conservators, or the Duke of Devonshire have sent them there. Fish are so plentiful and so cheap that they are given away as presents.

The Minister has referred to the Galway toy factory, and has told us that it has been disposed of to Mr. Kelly. I sincerely hope that he makes a better job of it than the Department did. About two years ago, through the medium of Deputy O'Connell, we tried to have an inquiry into the working of this factory. On that occasion the Minister stated that in view of the fact that the Department was trying to sell it as a going concern, and had an offer, he did not think it would be wise to give any particulars. I should like the Minister to tell the House if that offer was not made by the manager of the toy factory, and that being so, was it not really one reason why this factory was not a success, and why it could never be a success. Thousands of pounds of the taxpayers' money have been expended on this toy factory. It had every possibility of being made a success, and I believe if it had been properly controlled, it could have justified its existence and paid its way.

Among the reasons we had for asking for an enquiry into the working of this factory was that the foreman in charge was paid the princely sum of 50/- a week, while a son of the manager received over £3 a week for working a small machine. During the summer period, when the factory was busy and wanted to send stuff out, the manager's son was put to packing it up, and a boy was able to mind his machine for 10/- a week. Last week Deputy McDonogh stated that the wages paid to carpenters and cabinet makers in Galway amounted to £4 0s. 9d. a week. Roughly that is 1/7 an hour, while the toy factory advertised two years ago for a machinist at 2/6 an hour. Many workers applied for the job, but it was given to another son of the manager. We had a compensation case in Galway some time ago, as a worker in the factory lost one finger and part of another. Giving evidence in the case on behalf of the Minister, the manager expressed the opinion that a man was not an efficient worker until he met with such an accident. I would like to know if he was expressing the viewpoint of the Minister there. It is a very humane standpoint, I must say, for a Government representative! I would like to know if, at the disposal of this toy factory, one of the conditions of sale was that the manager was to go along with the factory. If that is so, could the Minister tell us if the manager is credited as an asset, or debited as one of the overhead charges?

There has been so much discussion on the fishery question from Donegal and Cork that I would like to say a few words on the question, regarding it from the point of view of Connaught. I am very sorry that I will not be able to do so with the same fervent rhetoric with which the Minister view was put by Deputy Jasper Wolfe, and the equally fervid rhetoric of Deputy Sheehy. Certainly Cork has got the orators of this House. I was very disappointed with the speech of Deputy Johnson. There was a note of pessimism about that speech which to my ears sounded very ungrateful. The Deputy seemed to think that the problem of deep-sea fishing was a hopeless one. He seemed to think it was hardly worth coping with. He seemed to think that the best thing to do was to give it up altogether, and concentrate solely on in-shore fisheries. To my mind that would be a terrible mistake. It seems obvious to me that if it is worth the while of boats from England, Scotland, Brest and Boulogne to fish in our waters, it should be well worth our while to fish there, if we had the facilities to do so. I think the scheme outlined by Deputy O'Doherty is the considered scheme of a considerable number of Deputies. In it I see the principles upon which a really big and comprehensive scheme of fisheries can be built up. I look upon this question as one of real importance.

Again and again we hear that our country is in a poor way, that the people are badly off. It appears to me that in some ways our country is as well off as any other country because we have undeveloped resources that few countries have. I think our main duty here is to see what resources of ours can be developed, and set to work to develop them. One of the first to develop is fisheries. Instead of taking up the pessimistic attitude that probably nothing can be done, I suggest to the Minister for Fisheries and Executive Council that they should approach this question with the same breadth of vision, with the same largeness of idea, and the same courage with which they have approached various other questions. Fisheries should be taken up with the same courage in which the Shannon scheme or the beet factory was taken up, and in the same broad, brave, thoroughgoing spirit. It is by putting that spirit into operation, and by that means only, that our fisheries can be properly and adequately developed.

Deputy Jasper Wolfe spoke with great fervour, great vehemence and great passion on the question of French and other foreign boats coming into our waters while the people of Russia were short of herrings. On the question of the people of Russia being handicapped in that respect, I cannot give any opinion, because I know nothing about the economic conditions of Russia, but I agree with the Deputy that every step should be taken to prevent such boats coming in. I have stood at the head of Achill, and in prohibited water I have seen the sails of the French fishing boats. That was an unpleasant sight to me, and it must have been a heart-breaking sight to the fishermen of the district, whose lives depend on fishing. I say that every necessary sum which could be expended on the preservation of our fisheries should be expended.

There is just one other matter to which I would like to call the attention of the Minister. How far it is within his province, or within the province of the Board of Works, I am not quite sure. I refer to the condition of the piers in certain parts of the West coast. We have in Clew Bay what I believe fishing experts regard as one of the best fishing grounds on the West coast. There is a great absence of proper facilities for the fishermen. The piers there have been seriously damaged by recent storms, and even up to then they were not adequate. On the southern shore of Clew Bay there is another little fishing colony of hard-working fishermen—the fishermen of Mullusk. They are very deserving and excellent fishermen, but they are badly wanting in proper facilities for the harbouring of their boats. I would ask the Minister to take those facts into consideration. The claims of Cork have been urged with great vigour, the claims of Donegal with great clearness and calmness of expression, and I venture, in my poor fashion, to urge the claims of my constituency of South Mayo, and to commend them to the Minister.

For a few moments I wish to call the attention of the Minister to the claims of fishermen along the coast of Wexford. I may, in fact, call them in-shore fishermen. In my county there are many miles of sea coast. Along the forty miles of coast between Wexford Harbour and Kilmore pier, there are no facilities for the landing of any class of boats. Of course, Rosslare pier is in that vicinity, and it breaks the chain in this long line of sea coast, but it is a private pier and fishermen are not allowed to land their boats there except on payment of heavy dues. Last year and the previous year I called the Minister's attention to a couple of stations along the coast where it would be easy to make landing stages for small boats belonging to these fishermen. At Rosslare proper, facilities are not so bad. There is a long pier there, and the only thing required is something which would enable boats to be hauled up at high water. Last year they had a very successful season. They caught an immense amount of herring from October to February. The fish was so plentiful the catches became practically valueless. There was no market for them except in the local town. There was no export trade, and the fish could not be got inland, so they were sold locally at very unremunerative prices.

From Rosslare to Carne there is one of the finest lobster fisheries in the Free State, but those engaged in that fishery are desperately handicapped by having no landing place. There is a small station, St. Helen's, which could be converted into a safe place. There is a pier at Carne which is now being repaired. I would ask the Minister to try and do something to have landing places provided for the fishermen along that shore. As regards some of the inland rivers in my county, I believe there is a scheduled time fixed on most rivers for the opening and closing of the season. The men engaged in fishing on the Slaney complain that they are handicapped very much by the late opening of the season. I do not know the reason of that late opening, but I am sure the Minister can tell us. These men say that they are greatly handicapped by the fact that the season opens a fortnight or three weeks later than the date on which the other rivers of the country are opened. They would be quite prepared to leave off fishing earlier in the season if they could get these extra three weeks in the earlier portion, so that they could commence operations at the same time as that fixed on other river fisheries. I believe the Minister would do well to consider the question of giving these inland men the same time as the other people. They also complain of the increased price of the licence. I am not saying that that is quite justifiable, but they complain that they had to pay a pound more than in other years.

Before Deputy Corish speaks I would like to know whether it is intended to conclude the debate on this Vote this evening?

Then I take it the Minister will be given an opportunity to reply to the multifarious questions he has been asked.

As there are several other Deputies who wish to speak. I do not think we could finish this evening.

If it is intended to finish I want to point out that the Minister would require to begin to reply at 8.15. If not, we will be giving a longer time to this Vote than was given to any other.

Mr. LYNCH

It will take me a quarter of an hour at least to reply.

If the Minister can undertake to reply in a quarter of an hour he will be exceptionally skilful.

I would also like to say a word or two in connection with the fishing industry in so far as my constituency is concerned. We have heard the viewpoints of Deputies from Tirconaill, Mayo, Waterford and Galway. The inference that Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney drew from the statement delivered by Deputy Johnson was not, I think, shared by any other member of the Dáil. He said that Deputy Johnson had taken a rather pessimistic view of the fisheries of this country, and that they were incapable of development. Deputy Johnson's point, and the point that has been made by various speakers repeatedly here year after year when this Vote was under discussion, was that fisheries would not be any better unless the Vote was sufficient to provide another patrol boat. Deputy Doyle, my colleague in Wexford, made reference to Kilmore. The Minister will agree with me when I say that his attention was drawn last week to the fact that 14 foreign trawlers were inside the limit in this area. The Minister's attention has been repeatedly drawn to this. I know that the Minister and his Department have endeavoured to do all they could to safeguard the fishermen's rights in this and other areas, but the Minister is handicapped by reason of the fact that he is not given sufficient money in the Estimates to provide another patrol boat, and that to my mind is a really important matter in connection with the development of fisheries.

Deputies know that poaching is going on all over the country. In Kilmore and other parts of Wexford poachers are taking everything worth while within the limits. It appears to me that places like Wexford, if not neglected, are being lost sight of by the Minister and his Department. Arklow is a great fishing centre, and is given due attention by the Minister, but south of Arklow, in my opinion, the sea coast of Wexford is being neglected, perhaps unconsciously, by the Minister and his Department. Deputy Doyle has mentioned the question of piers and landing places. Courtown Harbour in days gone by was a good fishing centre. At present the men are unable to go out and catch the fish which are in abundance outside, the reason being that the place has been allowed to shoal up. The Minister's attention has been drawn to this on numerous occasions by Deputy Doyle and myself, but nothing has been done. The same to a great extent applies to Carne and Kilmore. Deputy Dr. White has referred to the question of shell-fish, especially lobsters. Kilmore, which is in my constituency, has been noted for lobsters, and people have come from various parts of the country in order to get Kilmore lobsters. I have been given to understand that unless something is done in the near future the lobster trade there will be a thing of the past. That trade needs the attention and watchful care of the Minister.

I think the Minister ought to pay serious attention to this matter in the near future, and do something to develop the lobster and oyster trade. Up to a recent period there was a good oyster bed about three miles outside Wexford town, but at present there is no oyster bed there. I believe on investigation it would be found that oysters could be got there again. Deputy Doyle has mentioned that last year in Rosslare and vicinity, and in the vicinity of Wexford Town, herrings and mackerel were so plentiful that fishermen had to give them away. That is a serious matter. I cannot understand why Wexford, which is practically a maritime county, has not been provided with a curing station. I understand that representations have been made in that connection on various occasions by people interested in the fishing industry. I think Wexford deserves some consideration in that respect, and I hope the Minister will give it his attention in the near future. Regarding inland fisheries, Deputy Doyle has referred to the fact that on the Slaney the fishermen are prevented from going out three weeks after the men on other rivers are permitted to fish. On behalf of these men about a year and a half ago I made representations to the Minister, and he had an inquiry instituted to find out whether it would be possible to have that done or not. The result of the inquiry was that permission was refused, but we were not given the reason for that decision. I think it is due to the fishermen of that area that the reasons should be given that induced the Ministry to refuse that request.

I think it was Deputy White who referred to the matter of bailiffs on inland rivers. I know so far as the Slaney is concerned, that many of the fishermen themselves have voluntarily laid themselves out to catch the poachers during the close season. Sufficient bailiffs are not employed in the various rivers to provide against poaching in the close season. As Deputy White has said, a great deal of harm is done in that particular time. I believe the Minister for Fisheries ought to get in touch with the Minister for Justice with a view to getting the Civic Guards to pay more attention to this matter of poaching during the close season. It may not be their duty, but if we are to develop the industries of the country everybody must help, especially in this matter of preventing salmon being killed in the spawning season.

Reference has been made to the state of affairs in Wexford, where a considerable quantity of the fish has to be given away for nothing or thrown into the sea. This is a question which deserves the attention of the nation. In inland districts, 15 miles from the coast, small herrings, after the larger sizes suitable for curing are disposed of, are sold at the rate of 2/6, 2/3 and 2/- a dozen. Some places further inland get no supply at all. There should be some organisation to deal with distribution. I endeavoured in Kilkenny to have the creameries made centres of distribution. If particular houses were selected in villages, with somebody in charge who would get the herrings from the coast and distribute them, or if the creameries were used as centres of distribution, the whole country could be supplied with fish. Medical men have stated that fish is one of the best of human foods. If the young people, who seem to buy motor cars to ply for hire, could be induced to buy ton trucks, take them to the coast and obtain loads of herrings or other fish for distribution to inland centres, they could be working all the year round. They could make a very decent living in this way, instead of trying to eke out an existence by carrying passengers in motor cars.

What I particularly rose for was to ask the Minister about the method of distributing the fry. Do all the rivers get their fair share? I think it is an accepted theory that the fry return as mature fish to the rivers in which they were raised, and I want to know if each river is getting its due share of the fry.

It is in accordance with applications from local anglers' associations and others.

I do not think that that is good enough. I say that each river should get its due proportion, and that private hatcheries should get the ova from the stations and hatch out their own supplies. I can understand a position in which some of the rivers get none at all. I do not know what the system is, but every river should get a fair proportion.

I have always advocated here that the real and only body that is capable of giving protection to our inland fisheries is the Gárda Síochána. I have always held that in the fishing season the Guards could be moved to the fishing centres near the coast. In the winter season and the spawning season they could be moved into the inland portions of the rivers. We have not that protection from Boards of Conservators on the upper reaches of the rivers that we need, and we will never have it if it is to be left to the water bailiffs. It cannot be done under that system. I have suggested that the Guards should get special training. A month's special training to men of intelligence—and they are all men of intelligence—would be all that they would need. They would always have accommodation at the different Gárda stations throughout the country, and they would always have facilities and be able to call for reinforcements if necessary for the special protection of the fish. It would be an ideal scheme if it could be worked, and I do not think that there could be any difficulty between the Minister for Justice and the Minister for Fisheries in working it. I ask them again to consider the position, because I hold that no other body in the community can give protection to the fisheries in the close season but the Gárda Síochána. The only protection our fish have is State protection. In England the position is quite different. There there are big landowners who employ their own staffs, both in the open and close seasons, for protective purposes. There is nothing like that here, and the only protection that our inland and deep-sea fisheries have is State, or semi-State, protection. We might as well realise that our system is entirely different from that in England and Scotland, where they have both State and private protection. I hope these matters will have the attention of the Minister. I know nothing about deep-sea fisheries, but I happen to know a good deal about inland fisheries. Therefore, I leave the deep-sea fisheries to those who know something about them.

Mr. WHITE

I want to impress on the Minister the fact that for the past three years when this question of recovering the fines that were inflicted on foreign trawlers was raised by me, the answer I got on every occasion was that the matter was under the consideration of the Attorney-General, and that as soon as it would have received his attention steps would be taken to collect the fines. I suppose I will get the same answer now. I raised this question in November. I first addressed it to the Minister for Fisheries, who referred me to the Minister for Justice, and the Minister for Justice stated that the matter was still under the consideration of the Attorney-General. I suppose the same answer will be given this time twelve months.

Deputy Sheehy in his innocence was under the impression that all the suggestions he offered to the Minister with regard to the fisheries on the Cork coastline would be promptly attended to. Well, when he is here twelve months he will find out what will be done. The taxpayers of Tirconaill and of the other counties where prosecutions are brought against the masters and owners of these poaching trawlers, have to pay the legal expenses of these prosecutions. The fines are not recovered, and the question then arises as to whether the taxpayers' money has been rightly or wrongly spent. If the Government is not in a position to recover the fines from the owners of these trawlers no prosecution should be instituted and the money of the taxpayers should not be used for the purpose.

This question of the revaluation of the boats and gear is a very vexed one, and something should be done at once about it to put it on a proper basis. The prices of the gear and boats should be written down to a proper and sensible level, and it should be done without any further appeals to the Minister. I say we are not getting value for the £9,500 in the Estimate for the maintenance of the cruiser. The Minister may think that the cruiser is doing her best, but she cannot be here, there and everywhere; she cannot be on the coast of Mayo one day, on the coast of Donegal another day, and at Glandore, in County Cork, on another day, and unless a second or a third cruiser is available there will be little hope that the inshore fishermen will receive any protection. Things are now in a worse position than ever in the area from which I come. The hand-line fisherman is not getting the tail of a fish, good, bad or indifferent, and the poaching trawlers are there day and night from every part of England. We have pier-slips, boats and hardy, courageous fishermen, but no fish. That is the position at present along the Innishowen coastline. I draw the attention of the Minister to the question of the provision of two drifters at Moville and Greencastle. I also draw his attention to the complaint that I and other Deputies have received as to the dismissal of a man named William Semple, who was an engineer at the Downings. From what I have heard from this man, I think he has a grievance. His grievance should be investigated, and if he had a case it should get proper and fair consideration.

I want to draw the attention of the Minister to the report of the Sea Fisheries Conference, 1927. One Deputy read an extract from page 3 of this report during the course of the debate, and it was also referred to by Deputy Law. I hope that when facilities, in accordance with the recommendations of this paragraph, are given, Arklow will not be forgotten. Deputy Law also made reference to the recommendations on page 18 where the schools are mentioned and, further, on page 19, there is a special recommendation which reads:

"We also recommend that in addition to schools at the points above-mentioned, there be provided one at Arklow to serve the fishing community on the East Coast."

Another thing I would like to know is this: Under the item Fishery Development (3) "Vocational Instruction," the sum of £1,800 is set out. I wonder whether that has any reference at all to those schools and whether the idea of putting this into the Vote had anything to do with the starting of those schools mentioned in the Fishery Report.

I desire to touch upon one feature which I do not think any Deputy who has spoken previously has dealt with. I want to put in a plea, if you like, for rod and line fishermen, fishing for salmon and trout. I note with regret, and I think that regret will be shared by members of the Farmers' Party—I do not want to be taken as an apostle of extravagance—that there is a decrease in the amount granted to "Boards of Conservators and Local Fishery Associations for Fish Hatcheries and for State Fishery Rights and for Scientific and Technical Investigation." The Estimate for 1926-27 under these heads £9,525 and that for 1927-28 £7,175, show a decrease of £2,350. I submit to the Committee that these inland fisheries and their interest should be considered in connection with the tourist development, and I would like to ask the Minister if he can hold out any hope that in the next Estimates some financial encouragement will be given to local efforts directed towards stocking the rivers. I wish to emphasise these words "local efforts." We in this country in years past have got into the habit of looking to Government for everything without in any way attempting to co-operate with that Government. There is a survival of that habit even in the present generation and even under our native Government the old habit of looking to the Government for assistance in every undertaking continues. I do not believe that any sportsman with rod and line would wish to throw all the onus of stocking the rivers on the Government.

I am one of the founders of the Cork Anglers' Association, of which I am still a member. We in Cork began in a very small way, and out of our own pockets established hatcheries, small, indeed, but nevertheless it was an effort in the direction of stocking the rivers. This effort has now been supplemented by the Fisheries Department, and let me say this much, at any rate in that regard I congratulate the Minister on doing the best he could with the limited means at his disposal. Now, the salmon and trout anglers form a fairly large proportion of the sporting fraternity in Ireland. As I have mentioned the tourist development. I do know that we would attract very many more anglers from across Channel if our rivers were better stocked. I do appreciate the efforts made by the Minister in this direction, but I would make one suggestion to him and it is this—it would involve some expense but it would be expense that would have a very good effect afterwards— that he should take into consideration the establishment of a State hatchery.

There is a good deal of uninformed opinion about the whole question of hatcheries and of fish culture. Some Deputies are of opinion that if you put a few ova into a hatchery a year afterwards you will obtain fish 5 inches or 6 inches long. That is not so. Since the introduction of the Loch Leven trout into New Zealand the trout there have become the largest in the world. Environment must have contributed something, for they have grown to an enormous size. My experience is, we rarely find salmon or trout here even within many pounds weight of Canadian or New Zealand trout or salmon.

Now, with regard to poachers. What I believe about poachers is this, and it is the opinion shared by many rod and line anglers for salmon and trout, that what is wanted in this country is a change of outlook towards them. In many country districts the poacher is looked upon as a sort of hero. I have heard in different places the boastful poacher reciting his tale—and his tale is received with applause—of the number of fish he killed in and out of season, by illegal methods. What we want in this connection is a change in our attitude of mind towards the poacher. I do not think that methods such as imprisonment would have much effect. I do say that a tribute is due to the Guards for the manner in which they have done their duty for the protection of the rivers. That applies very largely to the County of Cork and the borders of Kerry with which I am fairly familiar from the angler's point of view at any rate.

I hope the Minister will take note of what I ask—that is, to bear in mind, and if he can see his way, in the next year's Estimates, to provide for something in the nature of a State hatchery. That would go a good way towards increasing the number of fish in our rivers and lakes. With a certain amount of protection we would have plenty of fish, not alone for ourselves but for tourists.

Ordered: That progress be reported.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Progress reported.
Committee to sit again to-morrow (Friday).
The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m.
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