The Minister for Fisheries told us yesterday of the failure to establish a fish-market in Cork, and he attributed that failure to a Press campaign accusing the fish merchants of profiteering. We have had a very long debate, and I will merely put a few very simple questions to the Minister. Is it not a fact that on the day this fish-market was to be opened, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, taking with him some choice souls, went down to open the market, the trawler did not come in, and there were no fish? Is it not a fact that the skipper of the trawler, when he arrived some time next day, said he was not told at what hour he should arrive, and is it not a fact that on subsequent occasions the trawler did not arrive on the appointed day, or at the appointed time, and that it was impossible for the fish merchants of Cork to supply themselves from this trawler because she was never there at the right time? Is it not a fact, further, that the whole thing was conducted in the most unbusinesslike manner possible, and that it could not be regarded by reasonable people or by business people as an attempt to establish a market in Cork? Cork has 76,000 inhabitants, and it is surrounded by a circle of towns inland with large populations—Mallow, Fermoy, Kanturk, Macroom and Charleville. There is an excellent market, and, if proper measures had been taken, a market could be established, but it would now take a considerable time to create a feeling of confidence in it. I only hope that the next time the Minister will attempt to establish a market, he will do so in earnest.
IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 61—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR FISHERIES (RESUMED).
During the time I was able to be in the House yesterday, I listened with the greatest interest to this discussion. I find that the House is unanimously in favour of protection, as I understand it, for the fishing industry. We had yesterday an eclipse of everything pertaining to the internal life of this country, and a wonderful corona of eloquence as regards our fishing industries. Recommendations of a business-like character have been given —and I hope they will be received in the spirit in which they are given— to write down the depreciated assets of the fishing industry. I think this is a time of stocktaking as regards this matter, and in all stocktaking assets should be re-valued at their present-day values.
I was sorry to note in the discussion a want of constructive criticism. We heard of inefficiency; we heard that in the past the Minister held up his hands, saying his one cruiser was utterly inadequate to cope with the depredations of the foreign fishing boats along our coasts. I would like to have heard from some of our Benches constructive criticism along that line. Having been all my life a lover of the sea in every shape and form, and being known to many fishermen on the coast on account of that love—known even by my Christian name—I feel that I have, perhaps, a sympathy which is not shared by everybody who does not love the sea. I suggest for the consideration of the Minister that a steamer of any kind which shows itself long before it can see anything in the nature of a small trawler, is not the means of dealing with this thing. We are a new State. Let us take an imaginative point of view in this matter. We have several problems. We have a lifeboat institution largely run by the sisterisle. What is required along our coasts is a quick motor-boat service which could be linked up to do more useful things for our fisheries.
If we had a combination of interests and took this question of life-boats and tacked it on to the question of how we are to catch these trawlers off Achill Head and elsewhere, then we would have a complete police motor-boat service which could deal with this matter right away. The fishermen would be protected as regards the depredations that are made on their fishing grounds, while the destruction of the fishing beds in-shore would be prevented. If the fishermen got into difficulties at sea, practically this service could be employed to get them out of their difficulties. I suggest to the Minister that he should take into consideration the question of putting the policing of the fishing industry on a new and more intelligent basis.
I should like to draw the attention of the Dáil to the sum we are asked to vote on this Estimate, and to the way in which it is made up. We are asked to vote a sum of £52,306. Under the first three subheads—Salaries, Wages and Allowances, Travelling and Incidental Expenses—the sum that we are asked to vote is no less than £24,506, which represents over 49 per cent. of the total Estimate. I do not think there is any other Department of the Government where the salaries, wages and allowances, travelling and incidental expenses comprise such a large proportion of the total cost. On several previous occasions I have suggested that this Department should be abolished, and that the work it is supposed to do should be done by some of our other Departments. It is true that my suggestion in respect to another Department, the Department of External Affairs, has already been adopted, and that it is now amalgamated with the Department of Justice.
Not at all.
Well, the same Minister is looking after the two Departments now, and I would suggest that a similar course be adopted in regard to this Department. There has been a proposal—it is to take the form of legislation shortly—that the Land Commission portion of the Department of Lands and Agriculture shall be allotted to the Department of Fisheries. There may be something to be said for that. There will be this much at any rate, that when this Department comes to be discussed next year, the amount paid in salaries, wages and allowances will not presumably be over forty-nine per cent. of the total cost of the Department.
There has been a reduction, but where has that taken place? On the first three items to which I referred there has been a reduction of £520, but there has been a reduction of £9,700 under the sub-heads dealing with fishery development and rural industries. I think some explanation, further than that given by the Minister, is required for this very large reduction. I do not know if the Minister so far has justified the existence of this Department at all. There have been several criticisms passed upon his administration and upon the condition of the fishing industry in general, and with respect to the last speaker I think that there have been some useful and constructive proposals made. There are one or two observations that I would like to make. In the first place, how is it that up to this there has been no report issued from this Department? As far as I am aware, there has been no report issued since the Department was instituted. I am informed that in every other country where there is a Department controlling the fishing industry, notably in Denmark, and I think also in the case of the Scottish Department of Fisheries, reports are issued by these Departments. I think some explanation should be given why such a report is not issued yearly by our Fisheries Department. I think that a demand, or at least a request, was made for such a report by a prominent member of the Government Party upon the last occasion this Estimate was under discussion, and I hope the Minister will see his way to mend this state of affairs and to issue an annual report, as is done in other countries.
Reference has been made to the revaluation of boats and gear. That, to my mind, is the very first thing that should be done if the fishing industry is to get a chance at all. Most of the boats in the possession of fishermen, mostly, as we all know, very poor men along the coast, were purchased by them, or a contract was entered into by them for their ultimate purchase, at a time when the price they agreed to pay would represent nothing like the true value of the boats and gear to-day. I have in mind a specific instance where a man agreed to purchase a boat costing at the Department's price £2,000. The real value, I believe, of that boat to-day is about £850. What I would impress on the Minister is this, that if he is anxious, as I am sure he is, to secure the re-payments of these sums as far as possible by these men, he should offer them some incentive to endeavour to make some re-payments.
If they think that they will have to pay the same amount, or anything approaching it, as they originally contracted for, they will have no inducement whatever to work to the same extent as they would if they knew there would be an immediate revaluation. If they knew, in fact, what actually they would have to pay that would be an inducement to them to endeavour, as fast as they could, to repay the proper sum. When Deputy O'Gorman spoke of the failure of the fish market and the proposal in Cork in connection with the splendid markets that surround it for the distribution and purchase of fish, I was struck by the idea that it will never be possible to develop the fishing industry to any great extent commensurate with the wealth of fish that surrounds our coast until something has been done in regard to the cheapening of transport.
The question of transport, to my mind, goes to the root of the possible success of this industry. In other countries special facilities have been given for the cheap and expeditious transport and delivery of fish. Would it not be possible for the Minister to endeavour to arrange facilities with the existing railway concerns, or if it would not be possible, would this not be a further reason for doing something to bring about a proper transport policy in this State? I know that the Government have so far announced no transport policy, and this is only another instance of the necessity for such policy being considered and proceeded with. I am acquainted with a large portion of the coastlines between here and the counties of Wexford and Waterford, and I agree with the suggestion that there should be something done towards the development of the lobster industry.
The lobster industry is different in this respect from the fishing industry in general, because there is, I understand, a more suitable market for that fish. We have, I am told, a constant demand from the Continent for shell fish, mostly lobsters, and if the Minister could see his way to develop the possibilities and potentialities of this industry, which are very great, especially along the east and south-east coast, I think he would be doing something to justify the existence of his Department. He certainly could endeavour to preserve even the lobster industry which, though small, is being severely hit at present by those very methods and practices which were detailed to us so graphically by Deputy Wolfe yesterday. I know from personal knowledge that foreign trawlers have come in between the Saltee Islands off the south coast of Wexford and the shore near Kilmore Quay, and have taken lobsters out of the pots. There should be some means of preventing this taking place.
There are many obstacles, as pointed out by Deputy Wolfe, but it is the duty of the Minister to overcome them. I believe if he sets his mind to it he will be able, either by inducing his colleagues in the Government to bring about an arrangement with the British and foreign Governments, or by some other means, to put an end to it. The possibilities of the development of the lobster industry are very great, and I do not imagine—perhaps the Minister would be able to inform us on the subject—that the cost would be very great if he were to institute State lobster beds, or at any rate to make some experiment in this direction. I hope the Minister will be able to reply satisfactorily to the statement made by Deputy Wolfe yesterday, because he seemed to doubt its accuracy. If he is not able to contradict that statement, I hope he will then be prepared to take the Deputy's word for it.
I wish to speak of the fishing industry along the Wexford coast. Rosslare fishermen have told me that when they catch a certain amount of herrings there is no market for them. I have seen herrings from Rosslare sold as low as 4d. a dozen, and in the town of Wexford at 2d. per dozen. Deputy Gorey informed us that they were worth 2s. 6d. a dozen in Kilkenny. Can the Minister see a way of getting Rosslare herrings to the inland towns by way of a light motor lorry, so that those fishermen could remain out and bring home the full of their boats? They have to return with a small quantity, because the price is low, and they have no market for herrings.
As to the lobster business in Kilmore, I have been told by the Kilmore fishermen that very often when they go to raise their lobster pots they find they have been deprived of them by foreign trawlers. That is a hard thing for men who have no other way of living except the sea, and two or three acres of land, on which they grow potatoes. Mackerel are so plentiful along the Wexford coast that they land high and dry in Harpoonstown, and farmers and farm labourers can pick them up without wetting their feet. When I asked why they could not make the trade a success they told me that they had no market for their fish.
It seems to me that Deputies have approached this subject from a wrong angle. A great many of the Deputies to whom I have listened do not seem to know very much about the subject, and the more one knows about it the more difficult it is to suggest a remedy for the condition of things that exists at present. My suggestion is that the Dáil should leave all this eloquence aside, appoint a committee of men who know something about the industry, and let them suggest, in collaboration with the Minister, what should be done. People talk glibly about trawlers. Trawlers cost anything from £17,000 down to £500. It all depends upon what sort of trawler it is, and what it is used for. Talking of the use of steam-trawlers, one must pre-suppose a deep-water harbour where there are facilities to take in a cargo and discharge a cargo quickly and easily. Most of these big steam-trawlers go away, sometimes for a month at a time. They carry refrigerators. They are boats of 700 or up to 1,000 tons. Small motor-trawlers are mostly used round the coast of my constituency. They are good enough for the work, considering that most of the time is spent in sailing instead of fishing. Still, the owners make a living. The condition we have to-day is, perhaps, due to the too kind treatment meted out to fishermen by the Congested Districts Board, headed by Mr. W. L. Micks. After a time, the Dáil will recollect, the railways were broken down; gear got very expensive, and a lot of people went on the dole, with the result that the fishing industry never regained its prosperity.
At the present time, if there was an endeavour made, I think there is no reason why the fishing industry should not be made a success in this country. It is a pity that in Cork, where there is a deep-water harbour, there is not sufficient enterprise amongst the people there to get two or three trawlers and establish a market. There is no doubt that there is money in the industry, and that it would pay. I know it from experience. It will not help the industry to criticise the Minister here. He may not have much experience of the subject, but even if he had experience, this talk of £150 to equip a boat with nets is absurd. It depends on what sort of boat is sent out with the net. The gear of some of them would cost anything from £600 to £800—nets, lines and ropes. A very small boat could be equipped for £150, but there would be nothing to fall back upon in case they lost some of their train, as they very often do. Even the line boats along the coast would do very well. I know that from experience, but they have to be boats properly equipped. The English and Scotch line boats, as a rule, are steam drifters which have been turned into liners after the net fishing is finished. They have steam haulers, and the lines alone cost from £150 to £200. The work is done by steam, and the boats are driven by steam. They have to be fast, so that they may reach the fishing-grounds quickly, and return quickly to dispose of the catch. I suggest to the Government to appoint a committee to go into this matter, and to endeavour to do something for the industry, but the first thing the Government should do for the Minister for Fisheries is to give him a free hand, and to place a certain amount of money at his disposal.
Before Deputy McDonogh finishes, would he give any instance within his knowledge of any fisherman who, unless he had previously been employed, could possibly get on the "dole," as he calls it? It would be likely to mislead the House if that statement went uncontradicted. It is not possible within the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Act——
After the War, I said.
Unless he is employed, on failure to make a living, he could not draw benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Act. It would be well that we should have a clear understanding of what the Deputy means.
I meant the dole immediately after the war. Of course, it has ended now in this country.
Does the Deputy mean that unemployment benefit was paid to persons who were not employed for wages?
Yes, that has ended now.
Does the Deputy know of any instance of that kind?
I do not think they took the trouble of discriminating at the time. Nearly everybody thought they were entitled to the dole and they got it.
Then the charge is against the Minister for Industry and Commerce.
I do not wish to make a charge against anybody.
I wish to join in the appeal made to assist the fishing industry. In my constituency of Leitrim and Sligo there is a coastline of about forty miles. It is somewhat longer than the coastline of Donegal, I think, which Deputy White said yesterday was forty miles. At a place called Mullaghmore there was a pier built some years ago at a cost of about £60,000. It was built by private enterprise, I am informed, and it is getting out of repair. The lands there are now sold and have been transferred to the Irish Land Commission. The pier is falling into disrepair, and I would ask the Minister if he is in a position, for the sake of the fisheries, to do something to repair the pier. There is a pier at another place called Raughley, also an important fishing centre, which, too, needs attention. There is a pier in a third district. Maugherow, in respect of which Father Beirne made a strong appeal some years ago to the Dáil. I am informed that his appeal was turned down.
On a point of order, are those piers not now the property of the County Council?
Perhaps the Minister would tell us whether he has any responsibility for the piers?
Mr. LYNCH
These piers are mostly vested in the County Councils, and they are supposed to maintain them.
In that case the Minister cannot be questioned about them.
I would ask the Minister if he could give us any assistance by way of subsidy for boats for fishermen around the coast of Sligo. In regard to inland fisheries, we have an Anglers' Association in the district which out of its own resources has been procuring spawn I do not know whether the Minister for Fisheries has given them any assistance in that respect. I would like the Minister to look into these matters and find a remedy if possible. The pier at Mullaghmore may be the property of the County Council, but at the same time if any money is going for such work, we should get a share of it.
What I have got to say will be entirely confined to inland fisheries. That is a subject which I should know something about, living as I do at the celebrated Lough Ennel fishery. On previous occasions when I spoke here, I had to complain of the lack of assistance which we had received from the Minister for Fisheries. Since then the Minister has met us fairly and I do not make any complaint in that regard. But I do complain that the Government do not pay the attention that they ought to the gold-mine which we have in our midst. They do not seem to appreciate fully what could be achieved by the development of our inland fisheries. In Westmeath, we have an organisation called the Lough Owel and Ennel Preservation Association. With a certain amount of assistance from the Department, by the provision of a few hatcheries, etc., a certain amount of local enterprise and by knowing how to handle the matter, we capture a certain number of spawning trout when going up the rivers. We take from them the spawn. The spawn is put into these hatcheries at negligible cost. We had about six of these hatcheries in Westmeath and in the past year we were able to put 370,000 young trout into the lakes. An "Irish Times" representative came down to Westmeath last March, and a very interesting article was written by him on what he saw there. I took him round during the spawning season and I took him out to the lake where the pike came in to spawn. During the month of March this year, over a thousand pike were shot, a large number of them being over 30 pounds. I had the pleasure of shooting for him quite a number of the pike, and this he explained in his article. I do not think that this is done anywhere else in Ireland.
Deputy Jinks asked the Department to supply Sligo with these ova. I do not see any reason why Sligo cannot do what Westmeath did or why any other county cannot do so. We can turn 370,000 young trout into the lakes of Westmeath at practically no cost. In a tank, six feet by two feet, with a small pipe supplying fresh water to it, in a backyard at Mullingar, I showed the "Irish Times" representative about 60,000 young trout. Those trout have been turned into Lough Owel, Lough Ennel and Dervaragh. That has been going on for the past four years, with the result that the lakes are swarming with fish at present. Owing to the organisation we have, poaching has practically ceased. I must pay tribute to the Gárda Síochána for their activities in this connection. Those magnificent fish went up the rivers in former years to spawn and never returned. They were really useless to those who took them, because, being out of season, they were uneatable. In years gone by, they were packed in thousands in barrels, salted and used as tinned foods in other countries. All that has ceased, with the result that the fishing in these lakes is extraordinarily good. Unfortunately, the fishing has not been so good this year owing to weather conditions. There were only one or two good days, but to give an idea of the class of fishing obtainable, one boat had a catch of 22 and another of 19. If I were seeking a tribute to the quality of the fish in these lakes, perhaps I could not do better than apply to the President, because it was his brother-in-law who had the best basket.
With regard to the destruction of the pike, we destroyed well over 1,000 in the month of March. That has been going on for years and we are putting in the young trout. In addition to that, we are offering 2s. 6d. each for the destruction of cormorants. Anybody who brings a cormorant's head to the secretary of the organisation gets half a crown. In this way, a large number of cormorants have been destroyed. To give an example of the destruction that cormorants do, I myself picked up a cormorant this year who had a trout in his throat. He had choked himself in attempting to eat a second trout.
At the present time, the May-fly fishing is over, but there will be very good fishing from this on with "Harrys." The really good fishing will be in the months of August and September with "Murroghs" and "Peters." I fear that the Government do not appreciate the importance of the inland fisheries, and that sufficient money is not supplied to the Minister for Fisheries for the purpose of development. The inland fisheries would be a gold-mine if developed. An indication of that is given by the fact that 370,000 young trout can be put into the lakes of Westmeath, the cost of hatching being not more than £5. I suggest to the people of other counties that they should do as we did before seeking the Minister's aid. If they do not set about development themselves, I do not think it is fair to put all the onus on the Minister. Great development could take place if a little more money was supplied for what is a very valuable industry.
I disagree with Deputy Redmond when he suggests that the Department of Fisheries should be amalgamated with that of Lands and Agriculture. The Minister for Lands is unable at present to attend to all the work of his office, and he has to receive assistance. Deputy Redmond suggests that, in the interests of economy, we should place this most important Department under the control of a Minister who finds that he is unable to attend to the work of his own Department without assistance. What would we save by the amalgamation? We would save only the Minister's salary. As representing one of the largest fishing centres on the south-east coast, I express my dissent from Deputy Redmond's view. I disagree with the speeches of Deputy Redmond delivered both inside and outside the Dáil in connection with the Fishery Department. I claim the credit of having been the first to advocate the re-valuation of boats. I did that four years ago, and I am aware that the Minister intends to bring in legislation dealing with that matter. I ask the Minister to bear in mind that if the decision of the Conference is adhered to, the re-valuation of boats will not be of much assistance to the Arklow fishermen. The Conference only recommended re-valuation of boats from 1917. I would ask the Minister to make the period extend from 1914. The men of Arklow have paid more in insurance calls to the British Insurance Societies than they borrowed from the British Government altogether. With regard to loans, the Minister stated the number of loans granted this year, but he omitted to tell us the number of applications refused.
From year to year I have made an appeal to the Minister in connection with the acceptance of personal security for these loans. A large number of people made applications for loans, but the applications were ruled out because of the regulations of the Department of Finance. It appears that no man over sixty will be accepted as a surety. Men under sixty engaged in the fishing industry have very little property, and are, therefore, not available as sureties. In my opinion, the older men would furnish better security than the younger men, because, as they are not going to sea, their lives are fairly safe. I ask the Minister to waive the point as regards the age limit in connection with any application he considers genuine.
I also ask the Minister to increase the amount allocated for dredging, especially in connection with Arklow Harbour. The dredger is required in Arklow up to the month of April. After that it is very little use for the fishermen to get out of the harbour there. It would take the thousand pounds allocated for dredging to dredge Arklow Harbour properly. I agree with Deputy McDonogh when he suggests that there should be some conference. I appeal to the Minister to send out one of his inspectors or organisers to consult with the fishermen and organise them from a business point of view, with a view to the disposal of their fish by providing markets and cultivating a taste for fish in this country, and also to consider the establishment of some scheme of insurance for fishermen, who undergo great risks, because owing to accidents or the loss of the breadwinner, many families are left in want and misery. The organiser should consult with the persons directly concerned in the industry, not with politicians or others who are trying to organise fishermen for other ends than the interests of the fishermen. I am aware that the Minister has sanctioned one of the recommendations in the report of the Fisheries Conference as to giving loans to fishermen for nets on personal security. I would ask him to sanction the giving of loans on personal security for new engines. I am aware of many applications for such loans having been refused, for the reasons I have already mentioned. If these suggestions are carried out, I think they will be of great benefit to the Arklow fishermen. If they are not adopted, when the Minister introduces his Bill, we shall have to bring forward amendments to try and secure that the Arklow fishermen who borrowed money from 1914 onwards be given the same concessions as those who received loans from 1917 onwards.
I am not one of those Deputies who believe that this Department should be abolished or merged in another Department. I believe that the Department is a very necessary one, and that given sufficient money it would prove its worth. Comparisons have been made here as to the disparity between the salaries paid and the money expended on development. But that is not the way to look at the matter. Deputies who have criticised the Department I am afraid have not any knowledge of its working. It is too late in the day to come here at the eleventh hour and say: "Why do you not do this, and why do you not do that?" I suggest to those Deputies that the Department of Fisheries, more than any other Department, is open to receive suggestions from Deputies at any time. If Deputies have suggestions to make they will be listened to, and if found useful will be acted upon. One of the suggestions I have to make has a bearing on a recent sad occurrence. I am not sure whether it should be addresed to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or the Minister for Fisheries. Within the last month a very violent storm occurred suddenly and, unfortunately, on the north-west coast of Donegal a boat's crew was lost. My suggestion is that when one of those storms is expected by the Department which deals with the weather conditions a warning notice should be broadcast. There are numbers of wireless sets now in every village in the country and these warnings could be picked up and, if necessary, conveyed to the Gárda Síochána barracks by telephone. By that means a warning could be given to all the available fishermen. In that way you would do away with one of the great drawbacks of the small boats, because we have been told that the owners of those boats are nervous about proceeding to sea. It has been proved, within the last year or two, that the worst of these storms come suddenly. The ordinary weather forecast is published in the papers, but within twenty-four hours a violent storm may occur. That has happened a few times this year.
I think sufficient credit has not been given to the Department for what they have done for the inland fisheries. The results of the recent Act are beginning to show, and I think that if the Department proceeded on the same lines with regard to the deep-sea fisheries the results would be equally beneficial. I like the suggestion of Deputy Beckett with regard to motor boats. It has been admitted by the Minister that one cruiser is of very little use, and the cost of a second cruiser would be a very big item. The present cruiser, I understand, has not got the necessary speed, and the poaching trawlers can show it a clean pair of heels. Unless it is provided with a long range gun it is useless in many cases. The cost of a cruiser would provide a number of motor boats, which can do anything up to 20 or 25 knots. That is sufficient to overhaul any vessel that will be poaching.
I put those suggestions forward in a helpful spirit. I come in contact with fishermen as much as any other Deputy, and I have heard very little constructive criticism except from my own county. I think we should have more of it. It is up to Deputies, if they have any knowledge of fishing matters—and judging by the number of Deputies who have spoken there is such knowledge available—to give the Minister the benefit of that knowledge. I do not agree with some of the remarks which have been made. I take it, for instance, that the fisherman who went out and found that his lobsters had gone must have slept on it. I have some experience of lobster fishing, and it is a well-known fact that if the lobster pots are left too long set the lobsters will get out. That is a common occurrence. I think if the Minister for Finance would provide more money for this Department it would be most beneficial. It is the one Department in the State, I think, that requires more money.
In reply to the point made by Deputy Myles, I wish to say that weather reports are issued from the broadcasting station three times daily—at 1.30 p.m., 7 p.m., and 10.30 p.m. If it would be an advantage to issue the morning report which we receive from Valentia to Donegal at 5 a.m., it could be done. I do not know whether these reports are being very generally availed of by the fishing community, but I have heard of a few instances in which they have evidently proved helpful. I would be prepared to co-operate with regard to this matter.
It occurred to me, in connection with the suggestion about broadcasting, that if these messages were posted up on the police stations in fishing centres the information would be of very great advantage to fishermen. They would then have an idea of what the weather forecast was. I have listened to the debate since it started, and I was inclined to be impressed by the suggestion of Deputy McDonogh, that a Committee should be set up, until I was handed a report which deals with practically everything that has been discussed. That report concerned the Sea Fisheries Conference held in 1927. Amongst the recommendations I noticed the following, which have been spoken of by practically all the Deputies who took part in the debate:—
Maintenance of small harbours by central authority, help for part-time fishermen, change in method of guaranteeing loans, provision to ensure care of boats and gear, loans through approved fishery societies, credit facilities for fish-curers, development work on west coast, fishery school at Arklow, fishery schools on west coast, instruction for existing fishermen, fish lessons in school-books, propaganda literature for general public, domestic economy instructresses, special training with regard to fish cookery; organisation, grant-in-aid to an approved voluntary body; approved societies; affiliation with agricultural credit corporation; handling of fish under proper conditions, publication of market prices, Irish fish to be specified in Government contracts and in contracts by local bodies, experiment in inland marketing, illegal trawling, establishment of adequate marine police service and provision for punishment of offenders; cured herrings, special stencilling of barrels; cured mackerel compulsory branding.
If new Deputies were aware that such a report was in existence, I wonder would the House have been treated to such eloquence?
It would.
A lot of time would have been saved. As far as I can see, the industry is either worth protecting or it is not. If it is the great national asset we have been led to believe it is by different Deputies, it ought to be the duty of the Executive Council to seriously consider the recommendations set out here, and to place at the disposal of the Minister, whoever he may be, sufficient funds to deal with the question on sound national lines so that the best possible results might be attained. If it is not to be dealt with generously, and on substantial lines, it would be just as well if it did not exist at all, because from the results up to the present it has, apparently, scarcely justified the amount of money spent on it. I feel confident from the discussion that if the Executive would seriously consider the recommendations, which I take it would involve a considerable sum of money, good results would accrue from the findings of the Fishery Conference.
Notwithstanding the depressing statements we have listened to for some weeks as to the many industries that are going to the wall, it is refreshing to find one industry that seems to be flourishing. That is the industry of speech-making. It is not my intention to trespass on the time of the House further than to ask the Minister, when replying, to say if he has done anything for the fishing industry along the West coast from Ballycastle to Blacksod Bay. If he has done nothing, will the Minister say if he proposes to do anything in that regard in the near future?
After listening to the debate I am satisfied that this fishery question is a very important one. I confess that I thought the grievances of fishermen were confined entirely to Co. Galway, and I had no idea that exactly the same class of complaint against the Department of Fisheries existed in other parts. I am convinced now that this is a huge national question, and that the sum of money indicated in the White Paper is entirely insufficient to cover the requirements of the case. I could not say where the money could be found to attend to all the requirements of the fishing industry throughout the country, and for the purchase of apparatus and boats. I sympathise with the Minister, and I doubt if he will find it possible to secure the money to carry out the suggestions of the different Deputies. I warn the Minister, when endeavouring to raise money, not to turn to the farmers or to the commercial community, because these classes are laden down with the weight of taxation. It will be impossible for them to stand any more until such time, at all events, as they have recovered their financial strength.
I would like to direct the Minister's attention to the conditions that exist amongst the people on the islands of Innisboffin, Innisturk, and Innishark, on the west coast of Ireland. When I visited that district some years ago I found that a pier which was fully appointed with modern equipment in connection with the curing and transport of fish was a scene of great activity. Large numbers of people were employed in salting and curing the fish and preparing it for transport. During the recent elections I again visited the same neighbourhood, but it presented one of the saddest and most melancholy sights that ever came under my notice. There was no sign of a boat or a human being on the pier or in the neighbourhood—nobody to tell the sad tale as to why all signs of activity had disappeared. The pier was more suggestive of a grazing field, as cattle and other animals could graze there. Standing on the pier, and looking westward, one could see the islands of Innishark, Innisturk, and Innisboffin. I can assure the House that on my visit to the last-mentioned island some time ago I found the people in most desperate straits.
The people on that island received a large amount of encouragement and support from the old Congested Districts Board, but during the last few years, according to the complaint made by them to me, they have been completely abandoned, their interests neglected, and they have been brought to a stage of serious privation and destitution. The land is very poor and sterile, and they have nothing on which to depend for their existence except the harvest of the sea. I noticed that they were so driven to secure peat and turf that they were cutting the surface of the soil and using it as a substitute. That is a serious state of affairs on an island ten miles from the mainland. I desire to direct the Minister's attention to the condition of things there. I think it is a scandal to civilisation that they should be allowed to prevail. I know the people there are in want, and I know from the assurances I received that no attempt has been made by the Department of Fisheries to come to their assistance. I ask the Minister to apply himself to the matter, and do something to rescue these people from their unfortunate position.
I would like to know from the Minister whether any steps have been taken by his Department to deal with the serious condition of things in and around Drogheda, where the fish exported by the fishermen have been reported back as being contaminated as the result of Drogheda sewage. If the Minister has made any investigations in that matter, what is his decision? Does he propose to take any steps to protect the fishermen in that area from suffering such losses? I also understand that the Minister has demanded a sample of the fish caught in this area, and has been supplied with it, and, further, that he has been satisfied that the fish are not of the type that could be used as food, owing to the contamination of the drainage at Drogheda. The matter mostly affects Mornington and Drogheda. I would be glad if the Minister would take steps to rectify the situation there. I am sure that any expense necessary to remedy it will not be opposed by the National Party on the ground of economy.
In my opening statement I said that I would be brief, in order, if possible, to curtail the debate, but I am afraid that that statement has had the opposite effect. Various Deputies from all parts of the Dáil have asked questions and elaborated points which I cut out of my statement in my efforts to be short. In dealing with the points raised, I think I will have to give first place to Deputy Redmond, because I think his contribution was really the gem of the whole debate. He referred to the fact that the Ministry of External Affairs has now been brought under the Ministry of Justice, and he claims credit for that. He said that he had always advocated that the Department of Fisheries should be brought under some other Department. He seems to have convinced himself that he was the originator of that particular scheme, but I suggest that he was following a parrot-cry raised in a certain newspaper, and taken up all over the country by persons who rather chose that way of dealing with public matters than thinking them out for themselves.
He has taken up another parrot-cry which is equally intelligent. He compares the cost of administration of the Fisheries Department with the amount spent on development, and he said that he was sure that if he went through the Estimates that that would not apply to any other Estimate. I would invite him to look at the book. There are 68 Estimates, and I suggest to him that mine is one of the few in which there is anything provided except for administration. My Department does a great deal of administrative work in carrying out the fishery laws. It has nothing to do with development. Statutes have been provided for that administration. The question of steam-trawling was discussed by two or three Deputies, and Deputy McDonogh, who knows something about the matter, contributed most intelligently to the question. Deputy O'Doherty's scheme, or something very like it, was tried almost immediately after it was put before me some years ago. It was tried by private enterprise in the Deputy's own county where it had every chance of success, but it failed.
As a matter of fact, from the very start these trawlers, which originated in Tirconaill, in order to make it anything like paying, had to carry the catches across channel where they were near a big industrial population. We had that example before us, and where private enterprise failed to make it pay, I am afraid that a State Department would not do better. I am certain it would do worse. We have had the example, which has previously been mentioned here in that direction, of Australia, where they had very heavy losses and had to abandon the scheme. Several questions were raised as regards the recasting of loans. I mentioned in my statement that that is a matter that will have to come before the Dáil by way of a Vote, but, in the meantime, the Department is acting on the fact that we have got Government sanction for the scheme, and pending the legislation which, I understand, will be necessary, we are acting on it. We are not collecting all the amount due on these loans which will come within the purview of the approved scheme. Had Deputies listened to my opening statement they would have found that I said that there will come before the Dáil another Supplementary Estimate for £7,500 to meet the recommendations of the Fishery Conference in its interim report. In the meantime we have given orders to firms for these nets.
We hope to have them supplied any day now. We have done that on the money we have available in the Department Vote, pending the getting the sanction of the House for the expenditure. Some Deputies, notably Deputy O'Donovan and Deputy Tadhg Murphy from Cork, referred to the necessity for providing slips and piers. There is provision in the Estimate for these minor works, and we are constantly attending to them in different parts of the country. One of the things necessary in order to get my Department to give a grant is that there should be some local contribution. You all know the joke, in the past, about slips and piers all over places near local public houses, and where little or no fishing was done. We insist on getting a local contribution as a guarantee that the demand for a particular slip or pier is genuine. Where the county council or the local authority are prepared to spend money, that is a guarantee to us that the proposition is a sound one. In Deputy Davis's constituency an application was made for a pier, and we suggested to the County Council this year that we had £1,000 ready as a free grant if the County Council put up their share towards the cost of building a pier at Belderrig. The County Council did not respond, and the amount has not been expended. In no given year do we spend the amount set out in the Estimate.
I understand the proposal was that the County Council should first build a pier and that the Department would then give £1,000.
Mr. LYNCH
No. It was made specific at a later date, for I had to get the sanction of Finance for the expenditure. I agree with Deputy O'Donovan that some places will be rather hard hit by being excluded from the actual date to date on the recasting of the loans as from 1917 to 1923.
The man who got his boat late in 1916 will feel he has had very hard luck, and so with the man who got his boat early in 1924, but you had to begin and end somewhere. Everything considered, we thought this was a fair proposition as between the State and the fishermen, who were in a particularly bad plight. Deputy O'Donovan asked that the nets should be manufactured in the industrial class. I think that is rather absurd, and I think in Deputy O'Donovan's own constituency, in Baltimore, nets are made in the fishery school. Deputy Jasper Wolfe referred to the encroachment by the foreign trawlers, and he suggested that by merely saying "we want so and so done" we could get the British Government to agree to any territorial limit we liked. The facts are not so.
We have been striving to retain for the State the extra territorial bye-laws made by the Department of Agriculture excluding British trawlers from fishing in certain restricted areas outside the three-mile limit, but within a certain line. At an early period, I think it was while the Labour Government was in power in England, their law advisers said that they considered the bye-laws were still in force, and we have been acting on that. Up to comparatively recently we had been prosecuting foreign Powers, but we stopped, because we have not been able to collect the fines. There were no arrangements for the collection of them. Now we are in the position that we cannot drop our claim to the extra territorial waters and fall back on the three mile limit. I have been thinking for some time past that if we come to the House and bring forward legislation imposing very salutary fines on any person caught within our territorial waters that would also necessitate asking the House to consent to the provision of at least two other patrol boats. It is a very complicated question. I have come to the conclusion that our claim to the extra territorial waters at the moment is useless to us, and we might as well face the fact, and fall back on the ordinarily accepted three mile limit, and legislate accordingly.
Can the Minister say whether any formal representations and discussions on this matter have taken place with the British Government? For instance, was it discussed when the ultimate financial settlement was being made?
Mr. LYNCH
There have been informal talks between my Department and the Director of Fisheries. Very strong pressure is being brought to bear by the trawling companies in England on the British Government to stand out against our exercise of that extra territorial jurisdiction. They say this is another nation, an independent State; we are foreigners, and why should we be in a less privileged position than the French, German or any other trawlers that come in there and cannot be interfered with.
Has this matter gone beyond mere Departmental discussion? Has it been a matter of diplomatic representation between our Executive Council and the Executive Council in Great Britain?
Mr. LYNCH
I am not prepared to say whether it was or not. I do not know that it was. It was in the Law Office for some time. Deputy Law asked a question about the reduction of inspectors. If he looks at the Estimate he will find that there were two last year. One of these has been made chief inspector and the other remains as inspector.
Is there one short?
Mr. LYNCH
No. There is a suggestion on page 12 of the Conference report with reference to loans. We are acting on that. At least the other day I sent forward one of the applications.
Will the Minister answer my question as to the amount of uncollected fines and the cost to the State of the steps taken to collect them?
Mr. LYNCH
I have nothing whatever to do with the collection of fines.
Mr. WOLFE
How much do they amount to?
Mr. LYNCH
I understand to about £100 in each case, but I have nothing to do with the collection of these fines, or making an estimate as to the cost of collection.
Mr. WOLFE
How much do they tot up to?
Mr. LYNCH
I say that I have nothing to do with it. I have no information at hand with regard to it.
Mr. WOLFE
I can tell the Minister that it amounts to several thousand pounds.
Would the Minister deal with the point on page 12 of the Report?
Mr. LYNCH
The suggestion is that the number of sureties be six, but that they should not be jointly and severally liable; that is, that each man should be responsible for his share of the loan only. I am acting on that suggestion, and I have sent forward to the Department of Finance one such application for a loan last week. I have not had any decision on the matter yet. We are helping the kelp industry by means of negotiations for marketing, and so on. Conferences are at present being held between officials of my Department and of the Department of Industry and Commerce in connection with the establishment of an iodine factory. Deputy Lynch referred to the toy factory, and asked if there was some condition attached to the transfer of the factory under which we were transferring the manager as well. There was no such condition. Questions were raised about the earlier opening of the season for inland fisheries. This can be done as a result of a public inquiry, at which every side of the case can be put before the inspector who holds the inquiry, and if a case is made for the earlier opening of the season, that is done. That is the only way in which it can be done. You have to govern the opening of your season by the run of the fish. Deputy Gorey asked for information in connection with the distribution of fry. The principle is that we distribute the fry to approved anglers' associations which make application, and, of course, we have to be satisfied when giving them supplies that we will not be overstocking any particular river, because if that were done we would be doing as much harm as good; if there is not sufficient fish food in the river there is no use putting a great deal of fry into it, and such a step would not improve or increase the stock. Deputy White raised the question of the motor trawler at Moville. We are arranging for a motor trawler to be sent there.
Deputy Anthony referred to the decrease in the amount payable to boards of conservators this year as compared with former years. The position is that under the Act of 1925 boards of conservators are in a position to collect rates on valued fisheries in their districts. Therefore they get funds that they were not in receipt of before, and in some districts they are practically able to get along without any assistance whatever from State funds. There are, however, certain districts where the fisheries are only of small value, and these have to continue to receive help from the State. A number of local points were raised. For instance, Deputy Everett raised the question of dredging at Arklow. As far as I know, the dredger is at Arklow most of the time. More is spent by my Department on the dredging of Arklow than on any other portion of the coast, or on all the rest of the coast put together. Deputy Keating referred to the fact that there were no markets generally for herrings in the Wexford area. I do not know whether he expects me to supply transport there. That is hardly the function of my Department.
I expect the Minister to give all the help he can.
Mr. LYNCH
Nobody asks the Minister for Lands and Agriculture to provide transport for the farmers to get their eggs and butter to the market. I think this is a matter for enterprise on the part of the local people. If herrings are half-a-crown a dozen—I am not sure of the figure that the Deputy mentioned——
No, twopence a dozen.
Mr. LYNCH
If there is such a disparity between the price in Wexford and the price in Kilkenny, surely somebody who could benefit from such a sound proposition would go into the business himself.
Has the Minister ever heard of similar complaints made, even in Yarmouth?
Does the Minister not consider it his duty to endeavour to get proper and cheap transport for fish?
Mr. LYNCH
How does the Deputy suggest I should do it?
I would suggest that the Minister make himself busy with his colleagues in the Executive Council, particularly with the Minister for Finance, and put it to them that it is their duty to get a proper transport policy or to do something to help to subsidise this industry.
Mr. LYNCH
That is, presumably, that the Government itself is to put up money to supply transport. Is that the suggestion?
I am suggesting that it is the duty of the Minister to try to get his Government to see the necessity for providing facilities for the transport of fish.
Mr. LYNCH
I am afraid I do not understand what the Deputy is driving at.
I am afraid that the Minister does not.
Mr. LYNCH
With all due respect to him, I am afraid that the Deputy does not himself know what he wants.
I know what I am talking about, and that is that the Minister should do his duty.
Mr. LYNCH
I think I have covered most of the points raised. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs referred to the matter raised by Deputy Myles, and I think the Deputy was satisfied with his reply.
I would like to ask a question arising out of the statement I made yesterday. First, I would ask him what he has done to carry out the recommendations of the Fishery Conference made in their report in the last week of April with regard to the past fishing season. Secondly, do the figures returned for the sale of fish at the various Irish fishing ports include the entire return of the fish brought to those ports, or do they only include the amount of fish caught by Irish fishermen in Irish boats? These are two simple questions to which I would ask an answer.
Mr. LYNCH
I have three times at least stated that I adopted the report of the Fishery Conference. If Deputies close their ears to what I am saying, or are so fond of hearing themselves talking that they insist on bobbing up to ask questions, I cannot help that. With regard to the amount of fish landed there is no segregation. In the case of Buncrana there were 34,000 cwts. of fish landed, and they were mostly landed by British and Scottish boats, because the Tirconaill boats were fishing at the Downings and elsewhere.
I asked a simple question yesterday, and I repeat it now, whether the Minister intends to carry out the ultimate recommendations of the Fisheries Conference to provide the re-conditioning of the boats and nets that the fishermen have.
Would the Minister answer the question?
We must take this matter in a particular way. We have had a long debate upon this question. I shall allow Deputies to ask questions now, as I think there is no desire on the part of the Committee to initiate a second debate. On that basis I shall allow questions only.
Would the Minister reply to the question raised by me?
I should be also glad if the Minister would answer the question that I put to the Minister for Finance. I think it would save time if it was answered on one of the items of this Vote, namely, the status of temporary employees under the Fisheries Board. I suggested to the Minister that, inasmuch as this is a charge appearing under three heads of other Votes, it might be dealt with as a whole on one of them, and so save time. If that is agreed to, perhaps the President, in the absence of the Minister for Finance, might appoint a time to do so.
I want to repeat one question I asked the Minister, whether he is able to state now if he is prepared to issue a report of his Department. I understand he was asked to do so some time ago in the last Dáil by Deputy Mulcahy.
Mr. LYNCH
I forgot to answer that question. It is, as a matter of fact, in the hands of the printers for a considerable time.
I ask the Minister once again what powers, if any, the Civic Guards have to enforce the Fishery Acts, and, if they have no powers, what steps, if any, he is taking to give them these powers, so that there will be some force available in this country for carrying out the fishery laws.
Mr. LYNCH
They have none. I have considered the matter, and, at least so far, I am not convinced that it is desirable. In the first place, to carry out the Sea Fisheries Acts entails some knowledge of navigation, and that is not generally required by the Gárda Síochána. It would mean, amongst other things, taking bearings and being able to prove these bearings. In reply to Deputy Hall, in the case put forward by him on behalf of the Mornington men, we have had a bacteriological examination made of the mussels through a Trinity College chemist. The Fish-mongers' Company of London and the Public Health Bodies have refused to admit certain mussels unless certified pure by us, and we can only certify those pure that a bacteriologist certifies.