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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 8 Jul 1927

Vol. 20 No. 8

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 62—DEPARTMENT OF POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS.

I move—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,669,915 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh la de Mhárta, 1928, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na Roinne Puist agus Telegrafa, maraon le Telefóna.

That a sum not exceeding £1,669,915 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1928, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, including Telephones.

The Vote before the Dáil for the current financial year is £2,479,915, and the net revenue is estimated to amount to £1,748,980, leaving a sum of £630,935 to be provided by the Exchequer. The amount to be made good by the Exchequer does not, however, indicate the true financial position of the working of the Post Office Department, and in order to find the actual position we have to look to the Commercial Accounts which are prepared in my Department annually. The Commercial Accounts differ from the general financial statement in so far as they take into consideration items not provided for in the broad comparative statement of expenditure and revenue. Some of these items refer to superannuation payments which are treated on a pension liability basis. The main difference, however, lies in the value of work performed for other Government Departments for which the Post Office does not get cash remuneration. We perform for the various other departments many services, such as the conveyance of mail matter without prepayment of postage, payment of old age pensions, work in connection with unemployment insurance, etc., and these services involve, of course, extra expenditure, which is chargeable to the respective departments and not to the Post Office. A detailed list of such services is given in Appendix E of the printed Estimates, and their cost is estimated at £251,140. In giving this explanation I merely wish to make it clear that the working of the Post Office cannot be judged on the difference between expenditure and revenue, and that the true position can only be ascertained from the Commercial Accounts which are submitted for audit annually, and which are available for the Dáil.

On the Commercial Account basis, the loss on the Post Office Department in the first year of its working after the change of Government was £1,108,260, and in the accounts for the last audited year, 1925-26, the deficit was reduced to £413,967. It is anticipated that the deficit for the year 1926-27 will stand at the same figure approximately.

On assuming control of the Post Office Department, I had in mind, firstly, to develop the services which were regarded as being essential and helpful to the life of the country; and, secondly, to cut as far as possible the heavy loss on the Post Office, and as an ultimate aim to make expenditure balance revenue. In reducing the loss in the vicinity of £400,000, I believe that under present conditions everything has been done that could be. Internal economies have been effected where possible, and other economies, such as a reduction in certain nonessential and non-paying services, have also been made. Under existing conditions, it seems to me that it will hardly be possible to reduce further the present figure of loss unless by a restriction of public facilities, or by an increase in the rates charged for Post Office business. There are obvious objections to either course, which I feel sure will not commend itself to An Dáil. The Post Office has not been a self-supporting Department in Ireland, and while it can be made so, there are weighty reasons against adopting either of the alternatives mentioned in attaining that end as an immediate step. I think An Dáil will be satisfied with the gradual financial improvement which has taken place, will be content to proceed on normal lines in awaiting bigger revenue following the development of our industries, and in hoping for a reduction in the cost of living figure, which so materially affects expenditure in my Department.

The Dáil will be anxious to have some idea of how the loss on the Post Office is distributed over the various businesses, and on this I have ascertained approximate figures which show gains and losses as follows:—

£

The total loss, in round figures, as disclosed by the Commercial Accounts for year 1925-26, was

414,000

The Distribution of Losses was:

(a) Postal.

Gain.

Loss.

£

£

Letters

258,000

Printed Papers

134,000

Newspapers

62,000

Postcards

9,000

Parcels

90,000

Registered Articles

175,000

Money Orders

1,000

Postal Orders

4,000

258,000

475,000

Net Loss

217,000

(b) Telegraphs.

Loss on Ordinary Telegrams

£145,000

Loss on Press Telegrams

18,000

163,000

(c) Telephones

34,000

Total

£414,000

In the postal section it will be seen that the only gain was in the case of letters. On the other items of business losses occurred. The chief losses are in printed papers and registered articles. The loss on printed papers is largely due to the excess of circular matter from Great Britain. In registered articles we, too, dealt with a certain excess, but the loss under this head is in a measure due to the fact that the registration fee of 3d. is not sufficient to cover the cost of the elaborate, but necessary processes of dealing with mail items of considerable value.

I may explain that in the case of parcels and telegrams received from other countries, we are entitled to make a claim in respect of excess traffic, but as regards other postal items, such as postcards, newspapers, printed papers, etc., we are obliged, under the international conventions, to handle whatever volume of work is addressed to us. I may also explain here that in respect of parcels we get a substantial adjusting figure from Britain, in the case of Press telegrams we get a small amount, and in the case of ordinary telegrams the balance is against us.

During the past few years we reduced our charges on parcels, postcards, printed papers and telephones. In all cases the reductions have had the effect of increasing our loss, and the reduced rates did not respond as much as we anticipated in adding to our business. Except in the case of letters, our rates now closely correspond with those adopted in Britain, and if we were to reduce the letter rate to the British level it would involve an extra loss on the Post Office working to the extent of £250,000 a year. This loss would not to any extent be offset by increased business. While I would like to be able to accommodate the views of those who seek for a lower letter rate, I think it is clear that the facts of the case and the existing conditions are not such as to admit of any reduction at the present time.

I will now give the Dáil some idea of the amount of business which is transacted by the Post Office. In comparison with the figures which I gave last year, there have been increases in some directions and decreases in others, but on the whole the returns show that we have made progress, that the business is increasing, and it shows signs of further increases.

The figures are:—

TRAFFIC RETURNS.

Posted.

Delivered.

Letters

123,000,000

130,000,000

Printed papers

33,000,000

52,000,000

Inland postcards

7,000,000

9,000,000

Parcels

4,800,000

4,900,000

Newspapers

9,000,000

10,000,000

Forwarded.

Delivered.

Telegrams—

Ordinary

3,283,000

3,185,913

Press pages

41,058

118,983

Express Delivery Services—

Ordinary

23,971

Telephone

777

Total

24,748

Revenue from delivery fee 6d. on incoming parcels for year ended 31/3/27

£28,127

Total number of parcels

1,125,080

(A reduction of 168,720 on figures for 1926.)

CASH-ON-DELIVERY.

Year ended

31/3/26.

31/3/27

Number of parcels dealt with

4,673

10,413

Value of

£

Money orders issued

5,477,503

Money orders paid

7,177,626

Postal orders issued

1,397,108

Postal orders paid

1,636,871

Savings Bank deposits

1,102,062

,,,,withdrawals:

(Free State)

951,791

(British)

826,012

Postal drafts, old age pension, Army or other drafts paid

4,425,321

Savings Certificates sold

734,286

,,,,,,repaid

143,104

Rates collected

160,793

The gross total of moneys dealt with by the Post Office during the year ended 31/3/27 was

£29,708,495

As I have already reminded the Dáil, attention to the economic working of the Post Office was not allowed to overshadow the need for improvement in services where such could be effected. An inland parcels post cash-on-delivery service was introduced in 1924 in response to strong demands from Deputies and the general public. There has been a progressive growth in traffic since, and I am hopeful that in a short time the advantages of this service, which is so beneficially used in other countries, will be more fully realised and appreciated here.

There has been a further extension of the use of motor traffic for the conveyance of mails. Nine additional motor car contracts have been arranged, and the total of such services now is 87. Such services are working satisfactorily, and, as well as resulting in economies, they have made for improved postal services in the districts where they are established. Schemes for further extensions are under consideration.

Satisfactory progress is being made with the erection of the new General Post Office. The work was unfortunately much hampered and delayed by the recent coal and general strikes in Great Britain. It is expected that the public office will be opened about October next.

During the year 1926 contracts placed by the Department were allotted as follows:—

£257,214 on Saorstát manufactured articles.

£70,340 on British manufactured articles.

£53,418 on articles produced in other countries.

Particular attention has been directed to the need for telephone development. On taking over the service from Britain, the telephone system was inferior and very limited, and the number of telephones in comparison with population was very much below that of other countries. During the past year 102 telephone exchanges were opened, making the total 501 as compared with 194 in 1922. Of the new exchanges 20 have subscribers ranging from 4 to 51, and the remaining 82 have less than 4 subscribers each.

In the Vote now before the Dáil provision is being made for providing exchanges at 44 provincial towns. The first automatic exchange, with an initial and ultimate capacity for 1,440 and 4,000 lines, respectively, has been installed in the Ship Street portion of the Castle Buildings, and will, it is expected, be brought into use by the end of July. This will serve an area bounded on the north by James's Street, south by the Canal, Rathmines, east by St. Stephen's Green and Harcourt Street, and west by Inchicore. A second automatic exchange to serve an area bounded on the south by the Canal, Ballsbridge, north by Pearse Street, west by Harcourt Street and Dawson Street, and east by the Canal Docks, is now in course of construction. This exchange will have an initial equipment capacity for 1,800 and an ultimate for 6,000 lines. It will probably be brought into use before the end of the year. I may explain that the principle underlying automatic telephony is that of enabling one subscriber to get into direct touch with another without having to go through intermediate operators. The service will make for greater expedition in effecting calls and an improved service generally. Such a system has been in use in America, and is being more generally developed in England.

A total of 151 new call offices were provided, bringing the number up to 967, as compared with 592 in 1922. There was a net increase of 2,049 subscribers' stations during the year. Eighteen new trunk circuits with a total length of 503 miles of wire were erected. Provision is being made in the present Vote for the residue of the expenditure required for trunk services, Dublin to Dunboyne, Dublin-Edenderry, Dublin-Maynooth, Dublin-Mullingar, Killarney-Kenmare, Muine Bheag-Goresbridge, Monaghan-Belfast, Trim-Athboy. Eighty additional telephone circuits for the Gárda Síochána were provided during the year. Underground schemes have been completed, or are in course of completion, in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Tralee, Killarney, Greystones, etc. An agreement has now been reached for the erection of many additional call office kiosks in Dublin. Kiosks have also been provided in Cork and Limerick, and call offices in cabinets or kiosks have been established at many railway stations.

As I have shown, the financial improvement in the Post Office since it was taken over in 1922 represents the amount of £700,000 a year. The belief has been formed that this improvement, or the greater portion of it, is due to retrenchment at the expense of the public services. I wish to make it clear that such is not the case. Only about 20 per cent. of that amount has been saved as a result of curtailed public facilities. And I wish also to make it clear that in the reduction of facilities we did not consider rural as apart from town areas, but made retrenchments general, and where it could be borne with the least inconvenience. It has been claimed that the people of this country should have equality of services whether they reside in a town area or a rural area. In a commercial organisation such as the Post Office, services cannot obviously be arranged on such lines. We have to arrange them on commercial and economic lines; we have to arrange them in accordance with the amount of traffic to be handled at a particular place or in a particular district, and we have to measure cost against revenue in considering all services, both large and small. That is the basis, and I think the only basis, on which any business concern could carry on. In this connection I think it is also right to point out that the cut which we have made in certain services is not necessarily a permanent cut. We have constantly under review all the mail, etc., arrangements, and where we find that traffic is on the increase and would warrant further facilities, or where there are special circumstances, we will not hesitate to provide such facilities as may be justified. This particularly refers to rural posts, some of which were reduced in frequency in the years 1923 and 1924. The number of posts reduced was not so large as has sometimes been represented. In all, about 15 per cent. of the posts were curtailed.

It has also to be taken into consideration that although we saved a certain amount in the restriction of services in one direction we expended a large amount on the development of other services, such as telephones, which are and will be of greater help to the people of this country. We have to appreciate that telephones will largely, if not entirely, be the future medium of quick intercourse, and we must provide facilities accordingly. The telephone service as taken over from the British was not developed—it was very limited in its scope and the plant was obsolete and unsuitable.

In the discussion of the Post Office Estimates last year several Deputies referred to what was regarded as an unfair system of levying charges for the delivery of telegrams in rural districts. I promised the Dáil that I would examine into the whole question. As already stated, there is a loss of £163,000 a year on the telegraph service. This works out at about 1/- a telegram. While, therefore, we make a charge of 1/- a telegram for transmission, it costs us 2/- to deal with. In the case of residents living some miles from a post office we have to pay for the extra cost of delivery, which, for a person residing five miles from a post office, would amount to 2/-. At present the delivery cost of 2/- in such a case is borne either by the sender or the addressee of the telegram. If it were otherwise, the position would be that the Post Office, in charging a shilling for a telegram, would have to expend 4/- in dealing with it. I am unable to see how, as a business proposition, that could be sustained. The porterage or delivery charges on rural telegrams are not any source of profit, they are intended to defray, and they only defray, the entire cost of delivery, by reason of the distance resident from a post office. In all cases the first mile is free, and the free telegraph delivery area is a scheme that is in force in many other countries. A free delivery, irrespective of distance, would work out as I have shown, inequitably. As promised, however, I examined the whole question with the view of seeing whether it was possible to modify the present system, but so far I have not been able to convince the Minister for Finance that a good case exists for any change in the existing arrangement.

There is no material difference in the amount of the Vote now presented with that of last year. An increase of £17,000 is shown, but this is more than accounted for in the fact that the current financial year contains 53 pay weeks as against the usual 52.

I have a grumble to mention here. It is an annual grumble, and it is a personal grumble. I have not made friends with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs because he will not grant facilities for giving me my letters in the morning. I live in the centre of the city, and when I have to leave the house at a quarter to nine it ought to be possible for me to have my letters delivered before that time. This does not take place. I have mentioned the matter to the Minister on several occasions, and the suggestion that he offered was that I should send a man to the corner of the Square to collect the letters. The whole thing simply means starting the postman a quarter of an hour earlier on the delivery of his letters. I have already pointed out to the Minister that a letter was delivered at my house asking me to attend a Selection Committee of the Dáil at 11 o'clock one morning. That letter had not arrived by the time I was obliged to leave the house, and consequently I did not receive it until late in the day. On some occasions I do not receive the letters until 1 o'clock, and amongst them at times are letters summoning me to Committee meetings of the Dáil, sitting at 11 o'clock. That is my grumble, and I think it is a matter that should be attended to. My complaint is that I am not getting a proper service.

The next point that I want to draw attention to is the continuance of the sixpenny tax on the delivery of parcels. I think that charge has caused more grumbling amongst people than anything else in connection with this Department. I am sorry to find that the reduction in the telephone rates has not led to anything like an increase in the revenue. That certainly will not encourage the Minister to go on with any further extension of the telephone system. The telephone rates have been reduced, but the system has not been availed of to an extent that would make it worth the Minister's while to engage in further extensions. I am sorry to hear that. It would be a great thing if there was a big extension in the matter of the telephone system throughout the country.

I regret that the Minister has not seen fit to withdraw the very vexatious and unpopular charge that is made for the delivery of telegrams in the rural districts. To my mind nothing has made the Department more unpopular than that particular charge. The Minister has told us that there has been a loss of £163,000 on telegrams. He has tried to show us that there is equality of service as far as rural and town dwellers are concerned, but yet he continues this uncalled-for charge in the case of people living in rural districts. Would the Minister tell us to what extent this vexatious charge is responsible for reducing the loss on that particular service? To my mind it does not reduce it to any appreciable extent at all. In the circumstances I hold that it is not worth while continuing this special charge. I am quite sure that the loss of £217,000 on letters and parcels is largely accounted for by delivery in rural districts, but yet neither the Minister nor any member of the House would dream of asking the people to put extra stamps on their letters in order to have them delivered in the rural districts. What happens is that the charge is increased all round. It would be more equitable if there was a slight increase in the case of the delivery of telegrams than to have the present system. If the Minister is not prepared to cut his losses on telegrams it would be better then that he put the charge absolutely and entirely on the rural dwellers. It is very hard for some people who live in the rural districts, especially those dealing in perishable articles, to conduct their business while this extra charge is made for the delivery of telegrams. They receive telegrams daily, and many of them have to pay from 4/- to 5/- for their delivery. That is a very great hardship on these people. Personally I should say that it is not worth while continuing this extra charge for the sake of the slight reduction made in the total losses sustained on the delivery of telegrams.

I desire to support what Deputy Brennan has stated with regard to the unfairness of the charge made for the delivery of telegrams in rural districts. It is an imposition on these people to have to pay these charges, while the people living in towns get all their telegrams delivered free of charge. I would like to know from the Minister if all the losses that he enumerated are made on the telegrams on which there is no porterage collected. If that is the position, it makes this extra charge on the people in the rural districts all the more unfair. If the people in the rural districts have to bear the full share of the cost of the telegrams, by paying porterage, then undoubtedly the Minister is conferring a great benefit on the people residing in the towns and within the required limit who get their telegrams delivered free. That is what I gathered from the Minister's statement is happening. If the people in the rural districts are paying the full charges, by paying porterage on the delivery of telegrams, then, of course, the Department is at no loss in the case of the rural delivery, so that the position we have is this: that the people in the towns and those residing within the required limit are getting all the benefit of the service while the people outside the limit are getting none. I would point out to the Minister that the people in the rural districts have to pay rates and taxes to the same extent as the people living in the towns, and, therefore, I think they are entitled to the same treatment in this matter. This is a very unfair and very obnoxious charge that is made on the people in the rural districts. It imposes a great hardship on them, because in many instances they have to pay a charge of 2/- for telegrams delivered to them.

Perhaps it would be well if I were to clear up now the points raised by Deputy Brennan and Deputy Doyle. The total loss on telegrams, apart from Press telegrams, is £163,000. All telegrams delivered within a mile from the post office are delivered free. That includes free delivery for the type of telegram referred to by the two Deputies, the telegram delivered, let us say, four miles from the post office as distinct from free delivery up to the limit of one mile. It pays its way between one mile and four miles, but no more than that, but notwithstanding that fact, up to the point of the one mile limit, that telegram involves the State in an actual loss of a shilling. In other words, it costs the State to bring it to that point 2/-, 1/- being subscribed by the sender.

That proves more conclusively than anything else the unfairness of the further charge that is made on people residing in the rural districts. The Minister admits that there is a loss on all telegrams, but yet he tries to recover practically all the loss from the rural dwellers.

Would the Minister give us figures as to the amount that is recovered by way of extra charges in the matter of the delivery of telegrams?

The amount last year was £20,000, and in the previous year £42,000. The imposition of the charge beyond the mile limit has certainly resulted in a very big decline in the number of telegrams that are being sent beyond that area. As I indicated last year, I made a proposal to the Minister for Finance in respect to this matter but the Minister could not see his way to accede to the loss which the proposal would involve. We do not stand alone in regard to this charge for delivery. Every country that I know of makes a charge in like circumstances.

Can the Minister say whether it is common to have a one mile limit only?

As a matter of fact, it is very common. It appears that there is a universal agreement on this matter. The Saorstát limit is one mile, and the charge beyond that is 6d. per mile or part of a mile. In Australia the free delivery limit is one mile, and beyond that a charge is made for the actual cost of delivery. If that cost is higher than 6d. per mile, it is charged. In New Zealand the free delivery radius is a mile. Beyond that it is 6d. a mile. In South Africa it is a mile, and beyond that 6d. per mile. In Belgium it extends to one and a quarter miles, and beyond that 6d. per mile. In Sweden the position is like that of the other countries mentioned. I know no exception to this rule.

The decline in the amount of money recovered proves that the system has not been availed of, and is conclusive proof that it is not worth continuing. Of the loss of £163,000 we only recovered £23,000 last year. While there was a net loss of business we had practically the same expenditure.

This was the main subject of discussion in the Estimates of past years. As I explained then, the absence of a fee was a great encouragement to people who sent telegrams light-heartedly on trivial matters. I know in the case of a great many people it is essential. We realise that fully and sympathise with them. That the other is also the case, and that the State, the taxpayer, was being unnecessarily involved in expenditure of this kind, we are also aware. Tipsters, touts, and bucket-shop advocates were freely distributing circular telegrams to people, remotely situated. I think it will be generally acceded here that monies of the State have some better purpose than finding their way to the employment of messengers for the delivery of telegrams of that kind. Therefore, there are two sides to it. Undoubtedly a similar situation exists elsewhere, and there must have been some determining factor in deciding this matter.

I think the House considers it a great hardship. I happen to live a few yards outside the three mile limit. It costs me 1/6 for the delivery of a telegram, so that it is not a question of a mile, but part of a mile, for which the fee is charged. It does not matter whether it is a yard beyond it. I think this is a great hardship, and is worth considering.

I want to have a mild growl at the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. It concerns Post Office workers in Waterford City. The heading under which I want to bring my complaint is classification for the purpose of maximum salary. I understand throughout the Saorstát the various cities and towns are classified under three heads. Dublin stands alone as Class One. Then you have Cork, Limerick, Dun Laoghaire, and Bray, Class Two. Waterford City is the fourth in the Free State, and, in other respects, perhaps, more important, because the export trade from Waterford City is larger than that of some of the other cities with a larger population. The Post Office employees in Waterford City have protested against the fact that they come under category Three. They have protested on several occasions to the Minister, and when the President was in Waterford City last September the matter was brought under his notice. I know this question has the sympathy of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, but it has apparently stopped there, because nothing has been done. I understand that this maximum was fixed by the English when they were in occupation here, and the cost of living is not less in Waterford City than in any other city of its size. I want to know what is the precise position now of these officials, and whether the Minister proposes to rectify it. I must say, as a citizen of that city, that I have always found the officials in the Post Office very courteous and very efficient. The staff down there have so far kept very quiet. They have not carried on any very active hostile agitation, either against the State or against the public. They have carefully and efficiently carried out their public duties.

Now I need not magnify the various uses that an efficient service is to business in the State. Only to-day, when we were discussing the Fisheries Vote, one of the Deputies, very wisely. I thought, suggested that notification should be sent out, several times daily, to our fishermen in the fishing centres, giving them a forecast of what the weather was likely to be. That is a very good idea and only demonstrates the excellent use an efficient postal, wireless and telegraph service could be put to. I should like the Minister to consider this whole question and to get a definite ruling from him regarding it.

I desire to support the application made by the last speaker. I have raised this matter previously with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and he has received me in a most sympathetic way. I know he is in a difficulty in regard to it. However, there is the anomaly, and it calls for adjustment. As far as I understand, Blackrock is actually in a higher grade than Waterford. That, without any disparagement to Blackrock as an important centre in the country, is a state of affairs which should be rectified. The position of the officials in Waterford is hardly a proper one, because of the importance of the centre in which they are engaged and the amount of work which they are called upon to do. I trust the Minister will give this his careful and immediate consideration and will be in a better position now than he was on previous occasion to indicate whether anything possible can be done in the matter.

I have more than a passing sympathy with the case urged by the Deputies for Waterford city and county. I have represented certain views in regard to the matter and I trust they will believe me when I say that I intend to follow it up.

I do not want to repeat the battle royal we had on former years on this question of telegrams. Any of the old Deputies will remember it. The figures given just now by the Minister prove conclusively the argument we advanced twelve months ago. The total loss on the telegraph service was reduced from about £180,000 to £163,000. The amount recovered for delivery outside the mile limit decreased from £43,000 to £20,000. That also proves my contention of last year, that there would be less use made of the telegraph service outside the mile limit. The Minister says that telegrams have been sent lightheartedly to bucket-shops. I do not know exactly what the Minister means by "bucket-shops." He has not conveyed his exact meaning to me, at all events. These "light-hearted telegrams," whether sent to bucket-shops or other shops, are not sent by people living outside the mile limit. The fact that one has to travel a mile, two miles or three miles to a telegraph office is sufficient guarantee that "light-hearted telegrams" will not be sent. That applies both to delivery of telegrams and the sending of telegrams. People cannot send telegrams without going to the telegraph office, and when they have to do that they will not send telegrams lightheartedly.

The amount received by recoveries is so small—£20,000—that it is not worth while to make a distinction on account of it between the citizens of the State. The Minister was prepared to suffer an annual loss on telegraphs of £143,000. The present loss is £163,000. The average charge for delivery outside the mile limit would be 1/-, and £20,000 is the total in that respect. You must assume then that the rest of the loss of £163,000 is within the mile limit, and that 95 per cent. of the telegrams— perhaps 100 per cent. of the "light-hearted" ones—were sent inside there. I do not ask the Minister to acquiesce in the claim made by Deputy Brennan, Deputy Doyle and myself. But I do ask the Minister to have a Committee of the Dáil appointed, assisted by some of the postal officials, to inquire into the whole matter and end the bickering which has been going on for the last three or four years. The controversy that we have had for some time serves no useful purpose. If we had this Committee appointed we could abide by its report. This trifling with the telegraph service is an irritation to people living outside the limit, and our own commonsense should suggest a remedy.

This is a financial matter. The question was fully discussed with the Minister for Finance, and I think it would be futile for me to give any hope of agreement as to the proposal for setting up a Committee of Inquiry. I can assure the Deputy that I shall keep a close eye on the subject, and if the financial conditions in the service offer the necessary encouragement we may be able to do something in the line suggested. Meantime, I think there would be no use in pursuing the matter.

If this Committee were appointed, it would have a satisfying and quieting effect, and it would remove the irritation which at present exists in the minds of the small section of the community which is obliged to pay the special rate. The year before last the amount in this connection was £60,000; last year it was £43,000, and now it is down to £20,000.

I understand that when the Post Office was taken over there was a loss of £1,180,260. Did that loss cover the thirty-two counties?

It would appear to me that a great many of the reductions are brought about by increased charges and the shortening of services. It is very questionable if economies effected in that way can be placed in the category of "reductions." It is really transferring money from one pocket to another. Then a great many of the reductions must have been brought about by automatic decreases in wages. Salaries and wages had reached their peak point in 1921-22. The reduction of stores must also have had a considerable bearing on the savings, as they are explained to us. It would be well if we had a proper account showing how the reductions in the service have been brought about—what amounts were in respect of salaries, increased charges and curtailed services. If we had those particulars, we would be able to assess at its proper value the reduction that has taken place in the cost of working.

As the Estimate is put up to us at present, we simply get bald figures showing that the expenditure has been reduced by so much. In my opinion, that is not a reduction. Increasing charges to show a reduction is not a reduction.

There are no charges increased.

The postal charges were increased.

They were all reduced except one.

Were salaries reduced?

They move up and down with the cost of living.

Were they reduced since the Post Office was taken over?

No, they were increased.

Since 1921-22?

Yes, in a considerable percentage of cases there were increases.

I would like to see the thing set out, so that we would be able to understand it properly. I wish the Minister would have it set out in that way.

Vote put and agreed to.
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