Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 8 Jul 1927

Vol. 20 No. 8

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE No. 40—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND PUBLIC HEALTH.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £324,543 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1928, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Rialtais Aitiúla agus Sláinte Puiblí maraon le Deontaisí agus Costaisí eile a bhaine ann le Tógáil Tithe, Deontaisí d'Udaráis Aitlúla agus Ildeontaisí i Cabhair, agus Costaisí Oifig Chigire na nGaeltlann.

That a sum not exceeding £324,543 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1928, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, including Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, Grants to Local Authorities, and Sundry Grants in Aid, and the Expenses of the Office of the Inspector of Lunatic Asylums.

MINISTER for LOCAL GOVERNMENT and PUBLIC HEALTH (General Mulcahy)

There is nothing very abnormal in the matter of expenditure or of policy to draw attention to on this Estimate. There are just a few points that may be remarked upon. Under the combined heading of travelling and salaries there is a slight reduction in the Estimate. Under the headings K, L, and M, referring to certain services dealing with mothers, medical treatment of children and work of that kind, the Estimate last year was £22,930, and there is an increase of £8,254 this year. This service arises under Acts passed as recently as 1915, 1917 and 1919, and the figure represents the gradual and normal increase in these recently introduced services. Under sub-heads R and S, referring to housing, the sum of £15,000 under sub-head R is the last of the million grant given for housing in 1922. It is estimated that that £15,000 will be completely spent during the current financial year. Under sub-head S, we are dealing with the remnant of the £900,000 that was voted under the 1924, 1925, and 1926 Acts. The reduction in the Estimate there is simply because of the fact that while £326,000 was estimated for last year, the actual allotment of this money was only £250,000. When we estimate for £250,000 as the allotment from the rest of the fund this year, it does not mean a definite slowing down of building work. It simply mans that we are measuring our estimate in accordance with the progress up to the present. Of the £900,000, after the £250,000 which is estimated for is spent, there will remain a sum of £125,000, which it is anticipated will be completely allotted or spent hy the 30th September, 1928.

A word perhaps needs to be said in regard to roads. Under the special road scheme introduced last year, £2,000,000 were set aside for special roads. Of that amount, the allotment of the first section was initiated in July, when £750,000 was allocated. The remaining portion of this grant was allocated in April, 1927, when a sum of £1,212,033 was finally allocated. There was a small amount left unallocated of approximately £37,000. Up to the end of the financial year, 31st March, 1927, of the amount allocated there was actually a sum of £273,491 spent. It is estimated that actually only £1,000,000 of this money will be spent this year, which will leave about three-quarters of a million to be spent after 1st April next.

In connection with the Road Fund we have also to remark that authority was given in February of this year for the spending of a certain sum on the upkeep of main roads, as distinct from the improvement of them. This is the first time a grant has been made from the Road Fund for the maintenance of main roads, as distinct from their improvement. The sum of £211,134 was made available for this purpose, and it is being allocated on the basis of the expenditure of the different public bodies during the year 1926-27 on maintenance. Fifty per cent. recoupment is being given in respect of the cost of maintenance on trunk roads and 30 per cent. recoupment in respect of other main roads. In addition there has been allocated from the Road Fund this year a sum of £300,000 for the improvement of main roads, and a sum of £50,000 for the improvement of certain tourists roads. These sums have been allotted to the various bodies, apart altogether from any expenditure that they are involving themselves in in respect of those roads. The money is being given as a special grant and does not involve any corresponding expenditure on the part of those bodies on those roads. There is, therefore, a change of policy in what has been done—a certain amount of money has been allotted from the Road Fund for upkeep as distinct from improvement. There is a difference as between the administration of the Road Fund under the British regime and the administration of it now. Certain monies are being granted for the improvement of main roads, apart altogether from any obligation resting on the local bodies for giving a certain amount from their own local funds.

Mr. HORGAN

I should like to ask if the Government have any new additions to their housing programme except what is outlined here, because I notice from reading a report with reference to the Fever Hospital that the conditions in Cork are becoming very serious. I will just read an extract from a paper I received in connection with the Fever Hospital Committee meeting, which will give some idea of the conditions:—

"The report of the year's working showed that a larger number of infectious cases had been dealt with than in any period for the last twenty years. In connection with the large number of diphtheria cases the Committee expressed the opinion that overcrowding, bad housing, and congestion in the poorer quarters were responsible for the increase."

In my opinion, the housing question will not be satisfactorily solved until the Government make a serious effort to deal with the slum and poorer areas. The houses erected under recent schemes are being let at rents out of the reach of the poorer classes. The sooner that we face the facts in that respect the better. I can quite understand it being asked where the money is to come from, but the problem is so serious that it ought to engage the very serious attention, not only of the Minister, but of the Executive Council. They should make a serious effort to get rid of the slum conditions prevailing in our cities. I thought it right to bring before the House the conditions prevailing in Cork city, especially as the particulars have been furnished to me by a very prominent resident.

Another matter to which I wish to call attention is the manner in which home assistance is being administered. I have here a letter from a constituent of mine, who says:—

"I am writing to you this letter, knowing that you will inquire into the matter. My wife is sick on childbirth, and I made an application for nourishment for her, and got a reply, as you can see in the enclosed form, that I should apply to my Health Insurance Society. Being an idle man, how can I expect to be in benefit? There are four children, and we are practically destitute. The R.O. did not come to the house to see for himself the want and poverty there is there."

This is the reply he got from the R.O.:—

"With reference to your application for assistance, if your wife has been confined, apply to the National Health Insurance Society for your maternity benefit."

This man, being a casual labourer, is not in benefit in the National Health Insurance Society, and still he is refused help of any kind under the home assistance system, as it is at present administered. That, I think, calls for some investigation. It opens up a very serious condition of things. In fact, as has been stated here during the past week, the whole question of home assistance requires thorough investigation and overhauling, because, apparently, there is a great deal of dissatisfaction existing among the poorer sections of the community at the manner in which they are being treated —I presume in the interests of economy. It is not economy to allow sick people to die in want.

I also wish to refer to the question of combined purchasing. According to the Estimate there are a few items of expenditure in connection with it which, added together, total £3,093. In my opinion, the combined purchasing system requires investigation and overhauling. I am not at all convinced that it is an improvement on the old system. If there is any apparent saving, it is more than counter-balanced by the expense of Government administration and the inconvenience caused to public bodies. It is a matter that demands inquiry, as, from information at my disposal, the results are not very satisfactory. I hope the Minister will give consideration, to these matters.

Mr. CARTER

With reference to the road grants mentioned by the Minister, I do not consider that County Leitrim has got an adequate share of them. Not being a tourist county, we have received very little in grants. There are 1,100 miles of roads in the county, only 200 miles of which are trunk and main roads. Owing to the poverty of the county, the expenditure on road maintenance is a very heavy burden, and I hope the Minister will see that the county gets a larger share of these grants.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

I notice with the greatest possible regret the substantial reduction of £75,000 in the Housing Estimate. I come here as an apostle of real economy and not of false economy.

General MULCAHY

Perhaps the Deputy misunderstood me, or did not hear what I said in my initial remarks.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

resumed the Chair.

Mr. BYRNE

I heard the Minister suggest that the Estimate was framed on the immediate wants of the moment, but I regret to say that, in my opinion, the wants of the moment are really of a very pressing nature. I trust that an appeal coming from these benches to the Minister will not be misrepresented or misconstrued. In my opinion, true economy is represented by such a reduction as £300,000 on the Army Estimate. I respectfully suggest that false economy is represented in the reduction of the Housing Estimate by £75,000, because on this Estimate depends absolutely the preservation of the health, the lives and the well-being of the people. Upon the housing of the people depends the main fundamental for the uplifting and for the progress of human life.

Upon the housing of the people depends the real decencies of human life. The suggestion of the Minister is that the Estimate has been framed only with a view of the moment. The problem is so pressing, especially in the North side of the city, from which I come, that I make an appeal to the Minister to give it immediate and earnest consideration. I recognise freely that £1,900,000 has been spent on housing, but still, the terrible fact remains that in 1911 one-seventh of the population of Dublin County Borough, or 43,985 persons, were living four to a room in one-room tenements. From 1911 to 1926 the Dublin borough population has increased by almost 12,000 souls, and consequently, with that increase there ensues a greater density of population in tenement districts. Fifty thousand human beings are affected by the Estimate we are now considering.

I can tell the Minister, and I am sorry to have to say it, but I speak with personal experience of the North side of Dublin, that young children are sleeping upon the floors of these pestilential hovels. I suggest to the Minister, most respectfully, that the problem of the Dublin slums is a blot on the administration of the housing system. The cancerous growth of these slums is increasing steadily year by year, and yet we are now faced with a reduction in the Estimate. I hope we shall hear something from the Minister which will give us a hope of this problem being immediately dealt with. In the framing of the Estimate I would ask the Minister has any sum been ear-marked to provide dwelling accommodation at rentals, say, for two-roomed flats, with sanitary accommodation, of something like 7/6 per week? I would even suggest a lower figure if that were possible. I suggest to the earnest consideration of the Minister that people with incomes of from 50/- weekly downwards have no possibility of paying rentals of from 15/- to £1, and sometimes more. I do not lay these views before the House in any spirit of hostility to the administration, but I suggest they are worthy of immediate consideration.

Primitive societies held land in common, and to-day we recognise one of the greatest and most mighty institutions of the State—private property in land. I suggest to the Minister that there is one predominant want of man, based on every law, human and Divine, and that is ready access to the land. Although I am not animated by any spirit of hostility whatever to the private institution of property as it now exists I venture, with all deference, to remind this House that Nature's law must be obeyed; that the want for the use of land is inherent in every individual in this State; that it is as vital to his well-being as the air we breathe and the water we drink. I suggest, with all deference, that land, being limited in extent, and incapable of increase by the labour of man, is subject to special economic laws. What I would ask the Minister to consider in as sympathetic a way as he possibly can is: Is the State taking care that this primitive want of every individual, this easy and ready access to the land, is being provided? Can he do anything to see that that want is reasonably fulfilled? One of the greatest economists, John Stuart Mill, has laid down a dictum based on the consideration of land tenure in Ireland, that property in land is only justifiable so long as the occupier is a developer of that land.

I do not lay these arguments before the House in any spirit of antagonism, but I suggest that we have plenty of land to deal adequately with the problem. The density of people to the square mile in England and Wales is 649; in Germany, 328; in Northern Ireland, 240; and in the Irish Free State only 112. I have had an opportunity of travelling through the major portion of the British Isles, and I can speak from personal experience and say that in no quarter, on any of my visits, have I seen anything like the terrible conditions that prevail in the tenements of the City of Dublin.

There are many derelict sites which could easily be made available for building purposes. If they were made available, they would afford ready access to the inhabitants living in the midst of towns, and I, as a business man in this city, think that it is not an undeniable truth that it is for the major benefit of the city that we should endeavour to transfer all the population to a distance outside the city itself. I put these arguments before the Minister, knowing very well that in this House there is no person more sympathetic personally to the subject with which I am dealing than the Minister. I know that he has stated that it is one of the gravest national problems at the moment, and I hope he will endeavour to grapple with it at the earliest possible opportunity. I would like to hear if anything could humanly be done to endeavour to give to the one-seventh submerged population of Dublin habitable dwellings at what has been called an economic rent. I will only say in conclusion that justice should be done to the submerged one-seventh as readily as to the more fortunate.—Fiat justitia ruat coelum—let justice be done though the heavens fall.

Mr. DAVIN

I am sure that the moving appeal which has been addressed to the new Minister by Deputy Byrne is bound to have an effect on both his heart and mind, but I hope that the Deputy's view of housing needs is not the view which he gets from the top of Nelson's Pillar and that he can see further than the view that he gets from the top of that magnificent monument. He appeared to confine his remarks to the housing needs of the citizens of Dublin. I think in making his moving appeal he has rather confused the responsibility of the Minister for Local Government with that of the Minister for Lands and Agriculture. Apart from these views, I hope that the Minister will take his courage in both hands and take the responsibility of producing a more courageous policy in regard to housing than we have had so far. We have in this Estimate a figure of £577,000 in the shape of housing grants for the year 1926-27, and for the year 1927-28, the amount is reduced to £502,000. There is no Deputy in this House, and certainly no Minister, who said more about the housing needs and about what the Government had done in that respect than the President.

I read his speeches in the country, and I listened to him on many occasions, and he quoted figures to show that in the year 1914 there were 78,000 houses unfit for human habitation. I wonder how many houses have been added to that list since 1914? We have heard, from the President, on the other hand, that only 14,000 have been provided under the various grants given from Government sources. Surely the President will not seriously suggest that that is a serious attempt on the part of the Ministry to deal with the situation which exists to-day? Most of the grants have been taken advantage of by speculative builders, who built houses to sell and not to let. The housing problem will never be solved until provision is made whereby local authorities will be enabled to borrow on long-term loans and to build houses which can be let at rents which people can afford to pay. That is the demand which comes from my constituency, and, if I know anything about the country as a whole, I think it is the demand which comes from the entire country to the new Ministry.

I hope that they will endeavour to meet the situation which calls for the provision, of new houses on long-term loans. These houses will never be built under the provisions of the Housing Facilities Act, 1925, and the Minister may make up his mind as regards that. I hope that he will signalise his entry into the Ministry by tackling that problem and bringing before us a more courageous policy than has yet been adopted. I know that in Tullamore, which has not a large population, there are 120 houses condemned as unfit for human habitation. The urban council there approached the Minister's predecessor and asked him to let them a site which is Government-owned and which is controlled by the Board of Works, but the Minister for Local Government told them that he had no responsibility in the matter. That shows that there is not a common policy between even two Departments. The Board of Works had the site and had no one to let it to, and the Urban Council required it to build 28 houses out of the 120 that should be provided. The same situation exists in Birr and other urban areas where there is an urgent demand for houses to let at an economic rent.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

May I ask the right honourable Deputy what part Labour will play in securing these economic rents?

Mr. DAVIN

I am afraid that Deputy thinks that he is in the British Parliament. If he reads the Standing Orders he will find out that he has not addressed me in Parliamentary language.

Mr. FALVEY

May I ask where the money is going to come from? We heard yesterday about old-age pensions for small farmers, but if they cannot provide for themselves how are they going to provide money for houses?

Mr. DAVIN

It will afford me the greatest possible pleasure to hear from Deputy Falvey whether the statements I have made apply also to Clare. If they do, I hope he will say how the money is to be found there.

Mr. FALVEY

Undoubtedly they are correct, but the Deputy's Party have been the cause of the state of affairs which makes the country unable to pay for all the wild-cat schemes he suggests.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I have experience of this kind of debate. Those of us who have been here before have heard the housing question debated on many occasions in the way in which it is now being debated. Perhaps this Estimate is not quite the right place to go into the question of economic rents. It is a bigger question than would seem to arise on the question of the administration of the Department of Local Government and Public Health.

Mr. DAVIN

I tried to carry on the debate as I thought it was initiated by the Minister, who made reference to the manner in which the Government provided for the housing needs of the people.

General MULCAHY

I did not say anything about it.

Mr. DAVIN

You referred to sub-heads R and S of the Vote, to which we are asked to agree. I will, however, leave the matter at that and I will be delighted to listen to Deputy Falvey on this or any other question. The Minister also referred to the money provided for the maintenance, construction and improvement of main and trunk roads. I am not sure whether his policy is the same as that of his predecessor in regard to the manner in which that money should be spent. I heard the late Minister say that it was his intention and, presumably, the intention of the Ministry, to spend any money allocated to roads by giving employment to the greatest possible number of people. I want to raise, under that heading, a matter which has been the cause of a certain amount of trouble and which led to disputes in my constituency concerning a class of people for whom Deputy Falvey speaks. In the part of the country from which I come the contract for the construction of these trunk roads has been given to two large contractors. Recently disputes have arisen owing to the fact that these contractors have brought motor haulage into the area and thus prevented the local carters, who are small farmers, the people for whom Deputy Falvey speaks in Clare, from getting work.

Mr. FALVEY

If the Deputy forgot about the small farmers they would be well off. He is proposing to put taxation on them that would mean absolute robbery. We will next hear him talk about better living conditions. The cost for all this is to come from the small farmers who are practically the only people left in the country. I protest against this policy of robbing the farmers with one hand and putting a few shillings in their pockets with another.

Mr. DAVIN

The small farmers are not represented by the Landlords' Union.

Mr. FALVEY

Certainly I do not belong to the Landlords' Union. I am a member of the Tenant Farmers' Union in one of the most intensely national counties in Ireland, and that is County Clare.

Mr. DAVIN

I am sorry Deputy Falvey is directing his eloquence against me rather than elsewhere.

Mr. FALVEY

It is not against you but your policy.

Mr. DAVIN

I was mentioning that in connection with the expenditure of this money on trunk road work in my constituency a dispute had arisen as to why these contractors, and they are numerous, should be allowed to bring motor cars into the area and consequently prevent the small farmers from doing the carting. In one county in my constituency at any rate, and I believe it applies to the other county also, the county surveyor was not allowed any discretion in drawing up the contract. He had been given mandatory orders from the Department the Minister represents that the large contractors should have any rights they required in this respect. If the money is to be spent in giving employment to the greatest possible number of individuals I think that policy should be qualified or altered in some way. I hope the Minister will have a consultation with the Chief Engineer with a view to allowing the county surveyors to have some discretion in drawing up the terms of the contract for money that is to be spent on trunk road construction work. It is not, perhaps, quite fair to spring these matters on a new Minister, but I hope in the ordinary course of administration he will take particular notice of the matter I have referred to and which has been the cause of trouble in the constituency I represent.

The PRESIDENT

May I say that Deputy Davin apparently misquoted the statement I made. I never said that there were 78,000 houses out of repair in Dublin in 1914.

Mr. DAVIN

In all Ireland.

The PRESIDENT

If I mentioned the number 78,000 it was in reference to people, and it is embodied in a report issued by a rural district council in Ireland. That report stated that the number of persons badly housed in 1914 was 78,000. That was the total number in rural areas that could be compiled. If I mentioned the figure at all it was to compare it with the number of people badly housed in Dublin to show that there was a certain similarity between the numbers. The number in the case of Dublin would probably be 100,000. Deputy Davin and Deputy Horgan have avoided the real crux in connection with housing. It is not a question of long term loans. Anyone who knows anything about the cost of building knows that a house in the city of Dublin, to meet the housing needs, would cost £500 approximately, and a similar house in the country £300. The interest on £500 at the rate we are paying for the last few years in Dublin would be £25 per annum—that is, at 5 per cent. interest. That is very close to 10/- a week. A long term loan, say a one hundred years loan, adds £5 to the interest. Paying off at £5 per annum means the cost of the house would be cleared off in 100 years at £30 per annum, which has to be met in paying principal and interest. I ask Deputy Davin and Deputy Horgan——

Mr. DAVIN

And Deputy J.J. Byrne.

The PRESIDENT

And Deputy Byrne if you wish, but he dealt with the question in a different way to the other Deputies. Deputy Byrne was honest in this, that he mentioned a small house. It would be easier to provide a small house, as the Local Government Department has specified in connection with grants that the houses must be three, four or five-roomed.

Captain REDMOND

My recollection is that Deputy Horgan specially dealt with small houses. He said houses were being provided of such a character that the people who most required them could not afford to pay the rent for them. It was to the small houses he specially referred.

The PRESIDENT

I am quite aware of that. Deputy Byrne spoke of two-roomed flats, which is a different proposition to that of providing small houses.

Captain REDMOND

There was no specified house.

The PRESIDENT

Then a small house is what the Deputy has in mind. If it is to be a house that would be passed by any public authority in the country, it would have to be a three-roomed house, and would have to comply with certain specifications. The cost of a three-roomed house in Dublin would probably be £350, taking it at a low estimate. If Deputy Horgan wishes for assistance in working-out what the intevest would be in making provision for the redemption of money in 100 years I could tell him that it would be £17 10s. per annum at 5 per cent., and the repayment of the principal would add another £3 10s. per annum, making a total of £21. What I want is a little common honesty in connection with the question, and an admission of the fact that the cost of building houses is heavy. The State has contributed towards that cost in the last four or five years almost £2,000,000. The question is whether an additional amount is wanted from the State towards that service. There has not been enough done—that is the case. Very good. You want more done. Does that mean you want more money? Where is that to come from? Now there is silence amongst the economists, the people who spoke about extravagance. If you want more it must come from taxation, and must be taken out of the pockets of the people or out of the pockets of the people requiring the houses. As far as the sum in the Estimate is concerned, if more than that be required during the year to fulfil the terms of our Housing Acts we will supply it. It is not a question of holding back money. It is a question of drawing up an estimate of the requirements of the country up to the 31st March next, and if all that is used up in March, does Deputy Redmond, Deputy Horgan or any other Deputy who spoke of economy say that the housing problem has not been tackled by us and that more money should have been spent on it? We are away from and out of the heat of the elections now and in a very calm atmosphere. Deputies should say plainly what is their policy in regard to that and in regard to other matters.

Mr. DAVIN

Is not that the President's responsibility?

The PRESIDENT

Certainly, and I am dealing with it. I am correcting the Deputy in the first place as rewards the 78,000 houses, and, having done that, I am bringing the Deputy back to his own statement, that it is not a question of long term loans that is the problem here. It is not a question of long term loans. I put it to the Deputy that if they were one-hundred-year loans—and I do not know of such a thing in connection with housing in any country in the world—that is not the problem; that the real problem is the heavy cost of the provision of houses. The fact is, as I have said here many a time, that if you build a house now under the conditions that prevail and put it up for sale, you will not get the money that it cost. Will the Deputy deny that?

Mr. JOHNSON

We have been contending, for the last four years, that you cannot build houses and let them at economic rents in the present circumstances.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Can you sell them at cost price?

Mr. JOHNSON

Certainly not.

The PRESIDENT

The Deputy admits that. That brings us to the other point. You say that in order to meet that situation we must subsidise and give long term loans. I do not know whether Deputy Davin meant that, in addition to these subsidies, we should give money to local authorities on long term loans.

Mr. DAVIN

I did not say that.

The PRESIDENT

My difficulty is in understanding what the Deputy said, or what Deputy Horgan said, or what Deputy Redmond means. I want it to be understood that I am not humbugging about this. It is a very serious matter. Perhaps when this Estimate is passed and the matter is finished, Deputies who criticised us in respect of extravagance and who criticised us for not doing enough for housing will put their heads together and come to us with a more sensible method of dealing with the housing problem than there is on the Statute Book. If such a proposal be submitted I will answer for the Executive Council by saying that they will be most willing to adopt it.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I want to question the policy of the present Minister tor Local Government and Public Health in regard to his action with reference to a medical appointment that was recently sanctioned in County Westmeath. Last autumn a vacancy occurred for a doctor for the hospital and dispensary in Athlone, one of the most valuable medical appointments in County Westmeath. Under the Local Authorities Act the Board of Health were given power to transfer to this vacancy an officer already in their service. It was understood during the passing of that Act that this would mean promotion, and that in connection with such promotion on transfer consideration would be given to merit, to length of service, and to the special needs of the locality. I am sure it will be admitted that a doctor who is to be transferred to a hospital that caters for a large area should have some special training in surgical work. There were four applications for the position.

One of these candidates was a distinguished graduate of his University, with a gold medal attached to his degree, and he had either ten or twelve years' service in a Westmeath dispensary district. The man who was appointed had two years' service, and had not anything like the same distinguished University career as this other man. I do not wish to make any further comparisons, but I do say that the intention of the Act was not carried out. The intention was that when a local authority was given the option of making a transfer it should take into consideration the merits and the length of service of the candidates. When the appointment was made some eight months ago the then Minister for Local Government refused his sanction. That refusal continued until the present Minister came into office, and the moment he came into office sanction was given. This caused great dissatisfaction amongst medical people.

I have had representations from the Irish Medical Association and from two or three other associations all protesting against this appointment. What I want to ask the Minister is this: If he was compelled to give his sanction under legal advice to this appointment, whether he is prepared to draft regulations to prevent an occurrence of this kind happening in the future. This is a precedent that will be followed up almost immediately by the things we are trying to avoid under the very Act I am speaking about. If the Minister would be able to give an assurance that he will draft regulations that would place some restrictions on the Public Health Boards so that they should take into consideration the question of merit and the question of service I shall be satisfied.

I know the medical profession is very gravely disturbed at this upset of the intentions supposed to be contained in this Act. I admit that it is quite true that the Act does not specify either of the two words I have been using in the matter of promotion. It only gives the local authority power to transfer, without mentioning on what grounds the transfer should take place, but I think the matter of such serious importance that it is only right that I should raise it here on the occasion of this Vote.

Mr. BRENNAN

I wish to draw the attention of the Minister and of the Committee to a few items contained in this Vote. There is a provision for £6,584 for 13 inspectors; a sum of £7,500 for 11 medical inspectors, and £4,000 for engineering inspectors, in addition to trade inspectors. There are two items out of those I have mentioned to which I want to direct attention. The 13 inspectors are engaged presumably on ordinary administration in the twenty-six counties. Since the abolition of the rural district councils each county contains practically three institutions—viz., the County Council, the Board of Health and the Mental Hospital. I think that the allocation of one inspector to every two counties is entirely unnecessary and out of the question. I have some experience of Local Government administration myself. I know that inspectors are helpful, occasionally, and that it is necessary, probably, to have them, but I do not think it is necessary to have them to that extent.

In comparison with these thirteen inspectors, let us look at the number of engineering inspectors. As a matter of fact, the chief engineering inspector is not connected with the roads at all, as far as I know. In fact there are only two or three inspectors that are connected with the roads. Considering that the Dáil provides a very large sum of money for road administration all over the country I think there are nothing like enough engineering inspectors to look after that work. When I say that I am not by any means trying to disparage the county officials responsible for road work, but I think the Department could well afford to lose some of its ordinary inspectors of administration and put some of them on to the roads.

Ordered: That progress be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again on Tuesday, 12th July.