Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Nov 1927

Vol. 21 No. 15

AINMLIOST CATHAOIRLEACH D'AINMNIU. - ADDITIONAL ESTIMATE—RELIEF SCHEMES—DEBATE RESUMED.

The Dáil went into Committee on Finance.

Motion made and question again proposed:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £150,000 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch 31adh Márta, 1928, chun síntiúisí chun fóirithint ar dhíomhaointeas agus ar ghátar.

That a sum not exceeding £150,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1928, for contributions towards the relief of unemployment and distress.

—(Minister for Finance).

Mr. ANTHONY

On a previous occasion, and on another motion, I referred to the prevalence of unemployment in Cork. On the motion before the House to-day I do not intend to travel along the same lines. I think it is generally conceded that this relief grant of £150,000 is relatively small. At any rate it is an indication to me, though perhaps a small indication, that the Government are beginning to realise the gravity of the unemployment situation when they agreed to make an immediate—I emphasise that word—grant of £150,000 to relieve, in some way, the unemployment that exists in the Saorstát. I desire to make what I hope will be a few practical suggestions in the way of having this grant supplemented by local effort. In making these suggestions I do not propose to suggest anything that would mean a large drain on the National Exchequer. I have in mind certain projects which, so far as Cork City constituency is concerned, could with a little assistance be made practical or paying propositions. We have delved somewhat deeply for some time back into economics, and perhaps I might call them economic propositions. I want to refer in particular to some work which might be proceeded with at once, and which has only recently been stopped in the city of Cork. That is work done by the Post Office in the laying down of cables, etc. I am aware that it is proposed to supplant the existing overhead wires by a system of underground cables. This work has been stopped in Cork City and environs during the last couple of weeks. It is work that, I suggest, should be proceeded with, even though the estimates do not provide for the work to continue for some time. Eventually this work will have to be undertaken, and therefore I think it should be proceeded with now. It would be the means of giving some employment and would help in some way to relieve those in distress as the result of unemployment in Cork.

It has been suggested from the Ministerial Benches that sewerage and waterworks are the kind of works contemplated to be undertaken by a portion of this relief grant. I want to ask that the Commissioner in Cork be urged to provide work in order to supplement this grant. I understand that in Cork advantage will be taken of it in some way, but I would suggest that the Commissioner be urged to undertake sewerage work on a fairly extensive scale. Work of that kind is essential if we are to keep abreast with modern hygienic conditions. I am sure medical members of the House would agree in saying that diphtheria and diseases of that kind are caused largely by the want of proper sewerage, and in other cases by bad water supplies. A decent sewage scheme is wanted at the moment in Cork and I suggest that the Commissioner in Cork be urged to embark on one.

With a little assistance from the Government there is another scheme which, I think, could be put into a fairly strong economic position. I refer to the works at the Passage West dockyard. For a time the dockyard was financed to the extent of ten per cent. and the works were kept going there for a considerable period. I understand the Finance Department made an allowance of ten per cent. towards the wages paid in the dockyard. That was the means of giving a large amount of employment in an industry that was badly hit in the postwar period—the shipbuilding and engineering industry. This ten per cent. allowance was of advantage not alone to the workers in the industry concerned, but to the country as a whole, because the men who were kept in employment would, under other circumstances, be out of employment and be drawing the dole or unemployment insurance. I understand that that ten per cent. which the Government allowed has been withdrawn. I think it would be a decent gesture on the part of the Government now to renew this payment. In conclusion, I want to ask that when the grant is being administered in the various districts work under the schemes undertaken should not be confined to any particular class of labour. The only requisite should be that a man is unemployed and is needy. The physical state of the individual who applies for work should be taken into consideration and no qualification whatsoever should be inserted in any clause, governing the employment of those people at present out of work. It should not be stated that only ex-National Army men should be employed or even a percentage. The only qualification necessary to secure employment under this grant should be that the person or persons are unemployed and that they are needy.

Dr. WARD

There must be general agreement now that the sum of £150,000 allocated for the relief of unemployment is altogether inadequate. It is rather a pity that Deputies on the other side of the house should not have realised the inadequacy of this grant when the Labour motion on this question was before the House. For instance, Deputy J. J. Byrne—I notice he is not here now—said on the 27th October in the unemployment debate: "I think the Government attitude on this debate is most reasonable and logical." Speaking here on the 11th November on the question of the allocation of this money he said:

If this money is to be allocated in the way that seems to be in the minds of some Deputies, namely, £6,000 to various units, I humbly suggest as far as Dublin is concerned that sum of £6,000 is entirely inadequate. If we are to deal with this question at all, the present grant of £150,000 must, in my opinion, be only a beginning.

It is rather a pity that Deputy Byrne and other Deputies who hold his views on the relief of unemployment did not realise the enormity of the problem at an earlier period, and we might be discussing a Vote, at this stage, which might be expected to give a reasonable measure of relief. Anyone understanding the enormity of the problem will realise that it is almost a waste of time discussing the distribution of this £150,000 for relief schemes. The Minister for Finance said on the 11th November:

It is intended on this occasion to expend the money on other schemes such as the preparation of sites on which building might afterwards take place, and waterworks and sewage schemes.

He subsequently states:

We will try, as far as possible, to have this sum expended in the financial year and on the other hand not to undertake work which would either have to be left unfinished or which will involve the provision of substantial sums in the coming year.

If that policy is to be maintained there is no use in discussing such things as sewage schemes. The Minister does not appear to realise that a sewage scheme, even for a small town, is a big financial undertaking, and if it is to be tackled at all it can only be tackled piecemeal unless very substantial grants are forthcoming from the Government towards the relief of the financial end of it. The great difficulty in those sewage schemes, which are very necessary, as I hope to show later on, is that the area of charge is so small. If the area of charge is extended outside the urban districts concerned to, say, the old union area, a burden will be inflicted on the farming community to which they will object strongly and for which they will not get an adequate return. I have in mind particularly a sewage scheme relating to the area I come from. In 1910 the sanitary authority there decided that it was necessary to have a sewage scheme put into operation. The then Local Government Department sent down engineers and architects and a sum of £60 was expended in preparing plans for that scheme. It was estimated that it would cost between £8,000 and £9,000. The Great War came along, and long-term loans could not be got. That scheme has been in cold storage since. The sanitary conditions in that area, like other areas in the country, have not improved. Such a scheme it is estimated would cost £25,000 at present. A penny in the £ in that area only realises £30, so it is evident if this question of sanitation is to be tackled at all that it must be on a national basis.

I was surprised to hear the President state here:

Insanitary areas in the country are, as the Deputy knows, almost unknown except in the congested districts of Connemara, Lettermullen, and other places like that.

I do not know if the President has any pet definition for insanitary areas that medical men do not understand, but I do know that insanitary areas throughout the country are the rule and not the exception. These insanitary conditions must be faced sooner or later. It should not be necessary to emphasise that these conditions have a bad effect on the mental, moral and physical well-being of our people, and I cannot see, if we are searching for productive schemes on which to expend relief grants, that anything can be more productive than a scheme to improve the well-being of the people, their health, and the conditions under which they are living.

Incidentally, of course, it will have the effect of relieving unemployment, and I think that this matter of sanitation and sewerage schemes in general should be very seriously considered by the Departments concerned. It would be a relief to the rates if we could improve the health of the community. As things are at present, we are expending very large sums of public money in providing all kinds of institutions for the treatment of disease, but we are not tackling the question of preventing disease. More attention could be given by the Department of Public Health to the prevention of disease, and in order to prevent the spread of disease one of the first things that will be necessary will be improved housing and sanitary conditions. It might be suggested that the picture that would be painted in this House by various Deputies if they described the unsanitary conditions in their areas would be overdrawn or too highly coloured, but I want to quote, for the benefit of the House and for the benefit of the Ministers in charge of the Departments concerned, extracts from the reports of medical inspectors of the Department of Local Government who inspected this urban area to which I have referred. This inspection arose out of a special report by the medical officer of health, who happened to be myself, but the matter has not got any further, and is not likely to get any further, unless the Department of Local Government and Public Health takes serious notice of the reports of its own medical inspectors.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is not the Deputy getting a little away from relief schemes?

Dr. WARD

Yes, but I want to point out the urgent necessity that exists for devoting portion of this money to such matters as sewerage schemes. Unless I am able to prove that the health of the community is suffering as a result of the insanitary conditions under which the people are living, I cannot establish the case for sewerage schemes, in preference to any other scheme, for this money.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That, of course, applies all-round. If we discuss sewerage, housing and other questions, we will get into all kinds of questions. The Deputy's point is subtle and good, but as a practical matter I cannot allow the Deputy to go into questions of local government and public health.

Dr. WARD

I think you have practically admitted that it is in order. You might prefer that I would not go into it, but I want to give these couple of quotations to substantiate the case I make for better sanitary conditions. This report was furnished to the Urban Council of Monaghan in the beginning of March, 1926:

The sewerage arrangements of the district are very bad, only old stone drains. Many streets have no sewers. A proper sewerage system is urgently needed. The town of Monaghan may be said to be without any provision for the disposal of domestic sewage, the oval flagged sewers being worse than useless, and constitute a grave menace to the public health of the town by reason of their inadequacy to deal with the volume of sewage requiring removal, and the dangerous and gross pollution caused by their discharge into the Shamble River which runs close to the town. The outlet into this river at Old Cross Square, close to a populated area of the town, is a constant menace to the health and well-being of those living in the immediate vicinity. About 100 yards of one of the main streets of the town (Glaslough Street) is without any sewerage facilities, and many of the houses in this locality are depending upon badly-constructed, foul, dry closets for the disposal of human excrement. Dawson Street, another of the principal streets, depends upon a rubble drain nine inches square to convey its sewage matter. The following streets in the town are unprovided with any kind of sewers, viz.: High Street, North Road, Stanley and Westenra Terraces, Gallows Hill and Pound Hill.

I could continue, but perhaps I have read sufficient. The Minister for Finance has probably never heard of some of these streets.

Mr. BLYTHE

I was about to ask if it would be in order for me to support the Deputy.

Dr. WARD

I am sure if you do they would be very much surprised in Monaghan:—

Provision of sanitary conveniences is exceedingly bad. Very many houses have no sanitary conveniences.

The number of inhabited houses within the urban area is estimated as 700. Of these 400 are provided with water closets and about 100 with dry closets and ashpits, leaving approximately 200 houses without any sanitary conveniences of any kind.

I submit that it is an appalling state of affairs that 200 occupied houses in any urban area should be without sanitary conveniences of any kind. If you take the average number of inhabitants of each of these houses as being seven it means that the excrement of 1,400 human beings is accumulating on the surface in that area, and in many similar areas throughout the Saorstát. That is a source of contamination to the food we eat and to the air we breathe, and contributes to the spread of disease and filth in every possible way. It is a very serious matter, and I hope that the Ministry will take very serious notice of it. There is one other point to which I would like to refer, that is, the necessity for using Irish material as far as possible in any relief scheme, or in any national scheme for that matter, though we are only dealing with relief schemes at present. It might appear to be unnecessary to refer to such a matter as that, but I was amazed at the innocence of some Deputies on the other side of the House, in spite of the educational processes that have gone on. For instance, Deputy Heffernan lamented the lot of a farmer who would have to use Irish material to build his house. Deputy Heffernan does not seem to think that there are any building materials in the country at all. Apparently he never heard of the Farney Development Company, which, I am sorry to say, is in liquidation at present. Considerable unemployment has been caused in that area as a result of the fact that the products of the Farney Development Company have not been used in Government schemes and have not been given a fair chance or a fair market. Farmers who have invested their money in the Farney Development Company are naturally hard hit. It would appear that very little is known, if I am to judge from Deputy Heffernan's knowledge of the building resources of the country, of this large deposit of mineral wealth, and for the benefit of the Dáil.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is the Deputy going to tell us about that now?

Dr. WARD

Yes, sir.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Oh, I think not.

Dr. WARD

Well, I think——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I have allowed the Deputy to make an argument that was really relevant to some debate in which the Minister for Local Government and Public Health would be concerned; I am not going to allow him to tell us about the Farney Development Company.

Dr. WARD

The connection between it and relief schemes is this, that this Company——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy is unfortunate in this, that I have made up my mind that there is no connection between it and relief schemes.

Mr. LEMASS

Will any of the money voted under this scheme be used for building purposes? If so, I think the argument is in order.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The only thing I have to say is that the Farney Development Company is not relevant to this debate. I have already given the Deputy great latitude.

Dr. WARD

If there is considerable distress because of the liquidation of this Company, will the Ceann Comhairle not hear me on that point in order that I may explain why money should be allocated to relieve that distress?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I will not hear the Deputy on the Farney Development Company, but I will hear him on distress up to the point as to how it is to be relieved, up to the point that I think is relevant.

Dr. WARD

There is no use talking about distress if I cannot submit to the House that the building products and the mineral wealth of that area are national assets that ought to be developed. There is no use in my talking about the Farney Development Company if people in this House do not know anything about the mineral wealth of the area to which I am referring.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy is going too far on this particular question, in all seriousness. He is going outside the scope of relief schemes.

Dr. WARD

You are not a bit more serious on it than I am, I suggest.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

What is the Deputy saying?

Dr. WARD

You said "in all seriousness" I am going too far. I said that you are not a bit more serious than I am.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Not a bit, but I am quite decided in my view on the question of relevancy.

Dr. WARD

Well, if you rule that this is not relevant I will discontinue my speech.

Mr. JOHN DALY

Before the £150,000 is allocated I want to see if I can get a slice of it for my constituency. We had a scheme to build 250 cottages in Fermoy rural district in 1914. I think the plans are in the office of the Local Government Department at the present time. The medical officer visited all the old houses, the engineer selected sites, the plans were passed and money was paid to the officials. There is nothing to be done now but to go ahead with the work. I can assure Deputies that the houses will be built of Irish stone. I do not ask that the whole scheme should be proceeded with, but I ask for a slice of the £150,000 in order to encourage the ratepayers to proceed with the scheme. We hear a great deal about sanitation, but where is the use of having a good sewerage scheme or a good water supply if the houses in which the people live are bad? If the Minister for Local Government looks the matter up he will find that the cottages were to be erected in Fermoy rural district, and a subsidy of £270 was to be given by the British Government. At the time building was very expensive. In order to secure the approval of the ratepayers for the scheme I think it would be necessary to give a decent subsidy now. Deputies have been told of the necessity for good houses. For that reason I ask the Minister for Local Government to assist in having these houses built, and the Minister for Finance to give a grant in aid. A great many of these people own their cottages. The medical officer condemned them, and in the hope that the new houses would be built, the occupiers almost let them fall. They have tried but cannot patch them up. For these reasons I hope the money will be forthcoming to proceed with the work. In addition employment will be given to quarry men, lime-burners and others, and the people will eventually have decent houses in which to rear their families.

Mr. O'HANLON

I do not intend to delay the House very long discussing the question of the inadequacy of housing, but I want to bring before the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Local Government a few matters concerning the County Cavan upon which they might very well utilise portion of this grant. There is a County Home in Cavan, and at present it is without a water supply. Two alternative schemes were brought forward. The Local Government Department did not approve of one, and, strange to say, the ratepayers did not approve of the other, as they considered it rather expensive. I am not going to discuss the merits of the two schemes. I believe that the Local Government Department approve of the larger scheme. I think if this scheme were carried out at once, and if a grant were given for the labour, leaving the materials to be purchased out of the rates, it is one that could be completed within the financial year, and would give much-needed employment in and around the town of Cavan. There are about 160 persons unemployed in the town of Cavan. I believe that in every town in the county the position is the same, while in the rural areas conditions are no better. In fact, an estimate I heard recently gives about 3,000 unemployed in County Cavan. I may say while on this subject that there is no representative of agriculture on the committee that has been set up to deal with unemployment. I leave it at that.

This scheme in connection with the County Home is one of great urgency. There are, perhaps, 250 inhabitants in the County Home. You can imagine the condition of a county home where there is no water supply, and where the sanitary conditions are in a very bad state. They are carting water to it. I urge the Minister for Finance to confer with the Minister for Local Government, and see if an immediate order could not be made for the provision of a water supply. I do not care whether it is a scheme approved by the Local Government Department or not. It seems that there is some danger of pollution from a graveyard under the other scheme. Whether that is so or not, the scheme is an urgent one, and all the plans are ready. I have a resolution here from Cavan County Council——

Mr. GOREY

On a point of order, is this grant to be allocated by the Dáil or by the Department? If it is to be allocated by the Department I think a discussion is out of order. If it is to be allocated by the Dáil it is in order, but I want a ruling on the question.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I am afraid it is not my function to say who is to allocate the money, but being familiar with a discussion which took place before, the only thing I feel is that every Deputy will talk about his own constituency.

Mr. DE VALERA

I suggest that if the Minister for Finance would indicate on what principle this money would be apportioned we would not have the debate so long.

Mr. O'HANLON

I was going, after referring to the County Home, to refer to a resolution from Cavan County Council when I was interrupted by Deputy Gorey who, I think, generally runs unsighted.

Mr. GOREY

I did not want to interrupt the Deputy, but I say other Deputies were carrying details dealing with their respective areas into the question. I think it would help the discussion by keeping it within a defined scope.

Mr. O'HANLON

A statement was made here a short time ago that there was a sum of £1,500,000 available under the Road Grant Scheme and that the county councils were not taking advantage of it. I have a resolution from the Cavan County Council to this effect:—

"The County Council of Cavan beg to inform the Minister for Local Government and Public Health that men and machinery are available for work in various parts of this county; that money can be spent at the rate of £10,000 per month; that distress is acute, and request immediate attention."

Somebody raised the point here that the reason the grant was not availed of was that there was no machinery in the counties to use it up, and that there was a hesitancy about buying new machinery. In County Cavan we have plenty of machinery, and there are a great number of roads in a very bad way which they could get to work on at once. It is quite possible that Cavan may have used up its road grant for this year, but if it has the men and the machinery to go ahead with the work, I think it should get an advance grant which would assist the unemployed during the winter. In that way there would not be the complaint that this large sum of money is not availed of by the county. There are many other schemes of a smaller nature that could be dealt with in the rural parts of the county, and I dare say they will get consideration when the time comes for the allocation of the money.

Mr. BLYTHE

I only intervened to say that in my original statement I said our view was that as far as the towns and urban areas were concerned the best sort of schemes to start on would be sewerage and water schemes and schemes of that sort. That as far as the rural districts are concerned the best type was something in the nature of bog roads or roads of convenience, and that the grant would be allocated as schemes were put up, giving preference to schemes which involved additional expenditure by the local authority, which would mean that instead of there being, say, £150 given for the relief of unemployment there might be £250.

Mr. DE VALERA

Might I ask the Minister who is to put up the schemes? Are they to be put up by each Deputy?

Mr. BLYTHE

Local authorities, mainly.

Mr. DE VALERA

In what way will it be determined how much is to go to each local authority and which is to get priority?

Mr. BLYTHE

Simply by judgment of the schemes. You could do nothing else. I will deal with that in replying —I have dealt with it before.

Mr. CORISH

Are we to understand from the Minister that there is to be a stipulation that a certain amount of money must be given by each local authority?

Mr. BLYTHE

No, I do not say that.

Mr. CORISH

I would be inclined to draw that inference.

Mr. CASSIDY

Do I understand from the Minister that, in addition to the County Councils, Urban Councils and Town Commissioners will be included when the money is being administered? Would the Minister also take into consideration rural areas under the jurisdiction of the various county councils, and would he hear representations from people in these districts as to schemes which would relieve unemployment, apart from the local authority?

Mr. BLYTHE

I think I had better wait until the end of the discussion.

Mr. P. HOGAN (Clare)

I am afraid that I am rather unfortunate in intervening at this stage, because I am not able to traverse a great deal of the ground which other Deputies have covered owing to the intervention of the Minister. However, I suggest to the Minister for Finance that he should consider the case of towns that trunk roads do not touch. I am not in agreement with his statement the other day as to the money available for road work, so far as County Clare is concerned. In County Clare very little money is available for that work with the exception of money for work that cannot be carried out very well during the winter, such as tar spraying. I ask him to consider the case of towns far removed from the kind of roads for which money is given.

Even at the risk of irritating Deputy Gorey, I will have to make reference to local conditions. The trunk road in Clare from Limerick to Lahinch goes through Newmarket-on-Fergus, Clare Castle, Ennis, Ennistymon and Lahinch. For several miles on both sides of this road there are towns that will not receive any advantage from the employment given. On the west there are such places as Labasheeda and Kildysart, and on the east, Quinn, Killaloe, etc. In each of these small towns there may be 100, 80, 40, or 20 people unemployed, whose cases should be considered and in considering schemes they should be taken into account. One worker in the Whitegate area writes me that the grant for steam-rolling did not touch that area. They did not, he says, want charity or the dole, but work of an economic and productive nature. He suggests that planting and such things could be carried out in that area. I have another letter from the western area, which is not touched by these roads, which suggests the repair of a slip for fishing, which would also be productive. Another suggests that a shelter wall, or some such thing, should be erected for currachs to come in beside, and not have to be driven on to the strand and sometimes ruined. I intended to go more fully into the matter, but now that the Minister has indicated that there will be consideration for schemes of a certain nature, I want merely to emphasise that these small villages and towns, far removed from the centres where employment is given on the roads, should receive attention. I also want to protest against the smallness of the amount allocated for the relief of distress. It is not a relief vote at all. I would rather describe it as something in the nature of conscience money on the part of the Government, and I think that it ought really to be only a first instalment.

SEAN O GUÍLÍN

Is baol liom go bhfuil an t-airgead san go léir caithte ach mar a bhfuil ba mhaith liom-sa cuid de d'fháil do mhuinntir na nDéise. Tá cuid de sna daoine ann i gcrua-chás fé láthair go háirithe ins an Ghaeltacht. Tá daoine ann gan obair ins na bailtí ann agus i bparóiste na Rinne tá an sceul go haindeis. Fuaireas litir tamall ó shoin ó chara dhom ann agus b'fhéidir nárbh aon díobháil cuid di leigheamh:

"Tá sceul na hiascaireachta go dona, ní amháin san Rinn ach i ngach ball iascaireachta den tír, agus is é mo thuairim go mberdh sé andheacair feabhas a chur air. Maidir le muintir na Rinne níl bád ná líom i mbun aon deallra aca agus mara dtiocfar i gcabhair ortha go luath is gairid ná beidh fear ann chun dul chun fairrge.

"Deurfaidh lucht an Roinn Iascaigh libh go bhfuil iasacht airgid le fáil uatha féin ag aon duine a iarrfaidh é chun córacha iascaireachta a sholáthar. Tá. Is fíor san, ach caithfidh an té bheidh ghá éileamh urraíocht mhaith a thabhairt fé bhfuighidh sé pingin, agus cia tá chun dul i n-urraíocht ar Iascairí bochta san tslí atá an saol anois aca.

"An té mbeadh urraithe le fáil aige gheóbhadh sé pé airgead a bheadh uaidh i n-aon Bhanc chó saor 's do gheóbadh ón Roinn. Dá bhrí sin cad é an buntáiste tá san Roinn sin dóibh?

"B'fhéidir go ndeurfaí libh leis go bhfuil bád maith ag an gComhar-Chumann anso agus ná fuil sí ag díol aiste féin, go bhfuil iascairí na Rinne róleisciúil, ná leanann siad an t-iasc, gur lá ag iascaireacht agus lá ag feirmeóireacht aca é.

"Níl an bád so againne ag Díol aiste féin gan amhras ach ní ní cionta na bhfear é. Bhí droch-inneal innte ó thosach agus ba mhinic nuair a bhíodh caoi aca roinnt airgid a dheunamh theipeadh an t-inneal ortha. Ní raibh sí gleusta sa cheart riamh chun an t-iasc do leanúint i gcompráid le báid eile mar í. Níl líon anois againn chun í chur chun fairrge dá mbeadh an t-aisc féin ann.

"Maidir le leisce na bhfear b'fhéidir go bhfuil roinnt de ag gabháil dóibh agus ní hiongna go mbeadh, mar bhrisfeadh sé croidhe aoinne bheith ag gabháil do iascaireacht anso le sé nó seacht de bhliantaibh.

"Nuair a bhí iascaireacht maith á dheunamh agus cóir ortha chuige ní raibh aon leisce ar fhearaibh na Rinne. Bhí an oiread aithne ortha i mbailtí cuain Chorcaighe agus Chiarraighe agus do bhí sa mbaile.

"Ní bheadh aon díobháil ceist do chur dé méid as míltí na Roinne (Dept.) a thuit le muintir na Rinne le cúig bliana. Thugadar síntiús don Chomhairle Chontae anuraidh chun "Plots" a chur i gcóir ag Ceann Heilbhic agus ní fiú a rá gur chailleadar scilling eile leis an áit, ach amháin £19 sa mbliain. i. leath cíos urraíochta (½ Insurance) ar an mbád so againne. Ní bhfuair aon iascaire dada ach geallúintí bréige ó Mhinistéirí agus Cigirí."

Más féidir in aon chor é ba cheart cuid den airgead so a chaitheamh san áit. Tá an taoide ag brugha isteach in Ard-mor agus dá dtabharfaí congnamh do Chomhairle na Contae chun rud éigin do dhéanamh ann chun an talamh do shábháil dhéanfadh sé maitheas mór don áit. Thabharfadh sé obair do sna daoine ar a bhfuil gá mór san áit. Tá antrácht ar an nGaeltacht san áit. seo agus má tá airgead le caitheamh in aon áit ba cheart é do chaitheamh san Ghaeltacht mar tá na daoine ag imeacht go mear as na háiteanna san agus ba cheart rud éigin do dhéanamh chun stad do chur leis an imirce más féidir é in aon chor.

Mr. BRODRICK

Like other Deputies sitting on those benches I am of opinion that this grant of £150,000 is wholly inadequate for the relief of unemployment in the country. I welcome the schemes of work that have been outlined, such as sewerage and the clearing of sites for houses and also waterworks schemes, but I realise at the same time that the workers employed on these schemes will probably be all unskilled workers. The skilled workers will not be absorbed by these schemes as far as I can see. I would like to know from the Minister what relief he intends to extend to workers whose occupation is in the handicraft trades. I call attention to a few of the handicraft trades that are in a very bad way at the moment. The tailoring trade is in a bad way in Dublin and in other large towns. That the tailoring trade is in a bad way is in large measure our own fault and also the fault of the Tariff Commission in not imposing sufficient tariffs to prevent ready-made garments coming in here. I should like to know what the Minister intends to do for the unemployed people in these handicraft trades.

Among the vehicle workers a very large number of people are unemployed at the moment, and people in the joinery business are in a bad way owing to the amount of imported joinery. Does the Minister for Finance suggest that this grant of £150,000 is going to relieve the condition of these people? I do not think it will be at all sufficient, and I do not see how these people will be benefited by the schemes suggested. Another remedy has been suggested by the Minister for Local Government, and that is that people belonging to trades, and other skilled workers who could not be employed on these works, should be relieved under the Medical Charities Act. I do not think it is fair that people who have been working at trades all their lives should have to depend on such relief. I could make a suggestion to the Minister for Industry and Commerce for relieving these people, and that is to extend to them unemployment benefit, but the Minister would answer that that would be very costly. Possibly it would, but I believe it is the right channel through which these people should be relieved.

As I said before, I welcome the works outlined by the Minister; they are very necessary and essential at the moment. But I also appeal to the Minister for Industry and Commerce to extend the benefits of unemployment insurance to people out of work in the handicraft trades. If he does so, then he will know in one month's time how many people are out of employment in the Saorstát.

Mr. O'DONOVAN

I want to plead that some portion of this money should be allocated to the county councils. I did not understand from the Minister for Finance that that was to be the case. It is absolutely necessary, when unemployment is so rife, that work should be given on the by-roads, and this could be done with the greatest advantage and relief to the ratepayers. So far such work has not been carried out, as no money was allocated to the county councils. I have one case in my own constituency of coast erosion. The work of repair could not be taken up because no money was allocated to the county council, and the people living in that area have to make a circuit of four or five miles round to get to the nearest town. It would be a great advantage if this work could be done. I am not interested in sewerage in urban areas, but in the small towns and villages the sanitation is very primitive, and sewerage work in these areas could be carried out. In that way you would tap districts where unemployment is very rife, and money badly needed. In my area, West Cork, we have benefited nothing from the roads grant. We have a big area where there is no trunk road, and sewerage works and the filling in of hollows and the cutting of hills, and doing away with dangerous bends on by-roads would be of the greatest advantage and a big relief to the ratepayers. If grants were allocated to the county council for these purposes it would be a great relief to the ratepayers who at the present are unable to bear any extra burden.

DOMHNALL UA BUACHALLA

Ba mhaith liom a chur in úil don Aire agus don Dáil uile conus tá an scéal ag roinnt muiríneacha i gContae Chilldara in áit ar a nglaotar Blackwood. Tá idir 30 agus 40 muiríon sa cheanntar agus do cheannuigh na daoine seo le déanaí roinnt de phortach ó Choimisiún na Talmhan. Do dhíoladar cíos as an bportach so agus níl de shlí mhartha acu ach an méid a gheibhid as díol na móna. Daoine isea iad a oibríonn go cruaidh agus go dicheallach agus deirid féin nách é an dole ná congnamh den tsaghas san a theastuíonn uatha. Sé theastuíonn uatha ná cabhair agus caoi chun a gcuid mhóna do thabhairt chun an mhargaidh. Tá na daoine seo ad' iarraidh slí mhartha d'fháil tré mhóin do dhíol. Agus mara ndintar rud éigin chun bóithre maithe do dhéanamh isteach chun na bportach ní bheidh sé ar a gcumas a slí bheatha do dhéanamh ann.

I wish to draw the attention of the Minister and the House generally to the condition of a number of families in the Co. Kildare in a district called Blackwood. There are between thirty and forty families in the district, and these people recently purchased portion of a bog from the Land Commission. They paid the rent for this bog, and the sale of the turf is their only means of subsistence. They are hardworking, industrious people, and they say themselves that they do not want the dole or assistance of that kind; what they want is assistance and convenience by which they can bring their turf to the market. I went down myself the other evening to this place, and I attempted to go into the bog by the only road that leads to the bog. It does not deserve the name of a road. It is a sort of passage-way which is all holes. The holes are filled with mud and dirt of all descriptions, and although there had been no rain for at least a week previous to the day I was there, I failed to get further than forty or fifty yards on this road. There have been instances when the carts these people use drawing out the turf were smashed owing to the holes in the passage-way. There is a stream running convenient to this place, and over this stream is a sort of bridge constructed of rotten timber covered with sods, and the loads of turf have to pass over this on their way out from the bog. This bridge has given way on more than one occasion with disastrous results to the people. Something should be done to provide a proper road for these people in order to enable them to earn their livelihood. I hope some of this money will be provided for the purpose of making that road.

Mr. M. HENNESSY

I do not think there is any need for me to impress on the Minister the necessity for allocating a reasonable sum of this money to the area referred to by Deputy Anthony, the area embracing Passage, Rushbrooke and Cobh. Into this particular area, with which, I am sure, the Minister is already conversant, very large numbers of people came during the war, secured employment and settled down. With the depression in shipbuilding and the general scarcity of money, employment ceased for very large numbers, and many families there are now in a hopeless condition. The people connected with the shipbuilding industry are willing to provide work if a ten per cent. subsidy is allowed towards the wages fund. A statement has been made here which is rather misleading. They do not agree, even if this ten per cent. is allowed, that they will continue to send ships there, but they go so far as to say that it would be an encouragement to them to get over the wage difficulties in that area. They make no further complaint. The men there, skilled and unskilled, do their work just as well as it is done in other areas where these people carry on their operations, but there is a slight difference in wages and the suggested ten per cent. will make up the margin.

The Minister has already subsidised this yard to the extent of £5,000. That subsidy was withdrawn, and for very good reasons. There are very serious difficulties in the way of a subsidy. These difficulties are understood by the workers, and by many Deputies here. If the Minister allows a subsidy now I think that the management and the workers will be able to arrive at some agreement on the wages question which will secure them permanent employment. There is a population of about 14,000 people in that area, and with the dockyards practically closed it will be quite evident to the Minister and Deputies that a very serious problem exists.

The Urban Council there is sending forward some practical road schemes and, as this money is to be used largely for the immediate relief of unemployment, and to give the largest possible number employment, I think road schemes and the matter I have referred to in connection with the dockyards will provide the best possible means in that area for the expenditure of money. When the Minister is allocating moneys to various districts I hope he will give a reasonable amount to this particular area.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

What I complain of is that the Minister for Finance has given no indication as to how he is going to allocate the money between the different schemes. He has shown the House already his ignorance of conditions in the country, or his carelessness about conditions in the country, when he said that there was no distress in the country, whereas the people know very differently, and recent disasters go to show that distress really exists.

Mr. BLYTHE

I do not like interrupting the Deputy, but I did not say anything of the sort.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

The Minister said there was no distress.

Mr. BLYTHE

I did not say that at all. It is immaterial really, but the Deputy, I know, will keep on repeating it, and I have corrected it two or three times.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

Very well, correct it for what it is worth. The question also arises as to the amount that will be allocated to the county councils. I feel that the west, or portions of it, could have been much better served if the people had to deal with the Land Commission as against the county councils. The county council of which I happen to be a member, as one of a minority, has over its doors, and over all its works, written high, the trade mark of political bigotry and political intolerance. At the present time the position obtains in Mayo that unless you hold a certain political belief, the political belief of the Government side, you need not apply. That has been carried on for the last couple of years very effectively with regard to giving employment to Government supporters, and very effectively with regard to excluding anybody who did not agree with their views. At election times—I do not want to go too much into details —the county surveyor and assistant surveyors, and all those people are quite free to leave their tasks and go out in their cars working for the Cumann na nGaedheal candidates. There is no question about it, and there is no redress to be had from any Department here.

A question also arises with regard to the ten per cent. preference when the Minister for Finance mentions the ex-National Army men. The Minister, at any rate, might be aware that instead of any such small proportion of preference being given what is really happening is that there is a wholesale preference. I have in mind a case to which I will refer the Minister. It is a case where a contract was given for macadamising the streets of Ballina for £9,000. The by-ways and highways had to be searched for ex-National Army men before anybody else could get employment. I got two men deliberately to go there in order that I might be in possession of the facts. I got them to sign a statement. They applied for work. They were married men with families, and they had experience of the work previously. They were told by the manager, the person in charge of Messrs. Grainger's plant, that nobody would get employment except ex-National Army men. It happened that out of 20 or 25 people employed, by some extraordinary means two people got employment who were not ex-National Army men. A responsible individual in the town advised that the few remaining ex-National Army men unemployed should go and pull these men out. I do not expect the person who advised that will be brought up under the Public Safety Act. He is on the safety side as regards politics at any rate.

I suppose the same conditions will obtain with regard to this grant as obtained in connection with the previous grant. Under that grant application was made by the Ballina Urban Council when there was considerable distress obtaining in the town and urban area and when considerable unemployment existed. There were something like 400 unemployed. They applied for the grant and the usual questions were sent down, including one: "Will you give preference to ex-National Army men?" The Urban Council stated they would not. They considered that the fair and honest way to approach it was to give employment to the most deserving cases whether they belonged at one time to the National Army, the British Army or any other Army. They considered the people they should employ were people who could put forward the most deserving claims. What is happening under the grants that have been given is that married men with families on the verge of starvation are excluded while the highways and by-ways are searched to get single and, perhaps in many cases, undeserving ex-National Army men employed. If those are the conditions under which this little bit of a grant of £150,000 is applied, then it will not do very much to help unemployment.

Every Deputy who has spoken has complained of the inadequacy of the grant. Anybody can appreciate that it is only put forward by the Government as a piece of window-dressing. It is not a serious attempt to relieve unemployment and it will be practically of no assistance in tiding the unfortunate starving people, who are anxious to get work and bread, over the winter months.

Mention has been made here of providing money for waterworks schemes for the country. I wonder has the Minister any idea whatever as to what a waterworks scheme costs? There is a waterworks system in Ballina which has been in operation for something like 44 years. That system is an antiquated one. Estimates have been got from Mr. MacCarthy and other experts which show that in order to deal with that question and have a proper waterworks system installed in Ballina, it would cost £25,000. That is one system. The money for that to be raised in the town of Ballina would mean between 12/- and 14/- in the £ which is absolutely hopeless and is a thing which could not be done under the circumstances.

If there was any intention or if there was any desire to try to remedy the position that obtains in urban areas with regard to the old water works system which are a danger to the public health, it is not £150,000 that would be needed, unless of course, it is the intention of giving a very small grant towards the work and getting the urban areas to do the rest of the work. That is impossible. It cannot be done.

I will take the case of the bog roads next. I do agree that if sufficient money was voted by the Government for these roads it would provide work which would be most necessary in the country and it would give employment where employment is much needed. I would ask the Minister, in connection with this miserable little grant, that he might think of the conditions as they obtain in places like Ballina, Foxford and Swinford and particularly places along the western seaboard. These latter have been brought to the minds of the Ministry by the great disaster that has happened in the west recently. But that disaster will be very soon forgotten by the Ministry. For the time being, it has focussed attention on the conditions that obtain in these areas. The sum of £150,000 would be a very small grant to apply to the relief of the conditions that obtain along the western seaboard. At the present time, the relatives and neighbours of the unfortunate people, as Ministers are aware, are afraid to go out fishing and it will be a considerable time before these people will get back to their old state of mind and be in a position to follow without fear the work of providing themselves with the means of livelihood in the future by fishing.

I would urge upon the Minister, when considering this question of the allocation of the money, that employment could be provided in the way of making roads along these areas in the western seaboards. There are numerous works there upon which money could be well spent in the way of providing roads into these places. I hope that the discrimination or differentiation that has been shown with regard to giving employment will cease and I say if this money is given into the hands of the County Council in Mayo, as at present constituted, the same thing will be followed in the future or followed while the present majority holds sway. I hold this money will mean employment to ex-National Army men, single men, who may not be deserving cases and excluding men who are deserving cases and genuinely entitled to it.

Mr. GEORGE WOLFE

I am glad that the Minister approves of the idea that a certain amount of this money should be spent in sanitation throughout the country and I hope it will be an instruction to the county councils or whoever has the distribution of this money that a certain portion of it, at any rate, where shown to be absolutely necessary will be spent in that way, for there is no way in which money can be better spent for the health of the people except in spending it in that way—with the exception, of course, of the building of houses. In the Co. Kildare, there are large numbers of buildings that are in a most peculiar situation. Some of them have most excellent water supplies but no sanitation, and others have excellent sanitation and no water supply.

Others have at present an antiquated system that has so long prevailed, and which is, of course, a great source of evil to any country or to any place. Yet, nothing can be done until there is a proper system carried out, and that must be done by some authority. To do these things is very costly. Each of these districts has shied at the large expense that is involved in carrying through these schemes. Now, with these funds available, I do not think the money could be better employed than that a certain amount should be spent on these works in these small towns that require these new sanitary alterations. Perhaps, in addition to the grants, there would be contributions besides from these districts. But the districts are altogether, in many cases, unable to find the money for the whole of this work, which is very costly. I think this would be a great source of employment throughout the country, and provide work for a number of people who are at present doing nothing.

There is also another matter. Anyone who goes through portions of the County Kildare, where there is a great deal of traffic, particularly in the by-roads, must be conscious of the extraordinary danger there is from sharp corners, and more particularly where there are high walls. Now, the taking down of these walls is an expensive business. It is a thing which cannot be done without the expenditure of a certain amount of money, and that money would be forthcoming from a fund like this. That would give a great deal of employment throughout the country, and would be extremely useful to the people who are using these roads and to visitors to the country who are motoring about. I hope it will be an instruction from the Minister when the money is being given that it will be spent in a way like that, that would be of such a service to the country, and not only to the health of the country but to the comfort of the people who live there. There has been a very considerable amount of unemployment throughout Kildare all along, caused to a great extent by the withdrawal of the military. The people have borne it fairly well, but during the coming winter the conditions will be very hard, of course, and it will be necessary that works like these I have mentioned should be carried out, in order that the people may have a decent livelihood there during the winter.

I do not think that this money can be allocated too soon. I hope this work is going to be done at once. If it is going to be effective, the grant should be available at once, and the work should be done soon, and I hope that if this £150,000 is not sufficient that more will be forthcoming. I think the Government are right in not giving a larger sum at the start, because if you want to have things effectively carried out, it is not a very good idea to mention a very large sum. If you want economy, you should not do it because it does not tend towards economy to let people think that there are enormous sums available, into which they can dip their hands for whatever they want. I do not think that is a good thing, but I am sure that if there is a necessity for more money to be spent, no Government, and above all our Government, will refuse to provide the money. They will find what is necessary to carry on the work, and so help the people to tide through the coming winter season, which I am afraid is going to be a very bad and difficult one.

Mr. COLOHAN

Listening to the Deputies who have already spoken in this debate one would think that the vote was for fifteen millions instead of for £150,000. Schemes have been put forward for the building of dockyards, for the building of cottages—two hundred and fifty cottages at £280 each, to cost about £70,000 or £80,000—schemes for waterworks and sewage schemes, and all these undertakings are to come out of the £150,000. I am sure that the Minister for Finance has extracted some dry amusement from this debate and that, surprised as he must have been by most of the Deputies' contributions, he must have been charmed altogether by Deputy Wolfe's contribution in which he said that it was not right to look for a larger grant than £150,000.

Mr. WOLFE

I did not say that £150,000 was to be the whole amount. I meant to say that it was a very good beginning to work on—an economic beginning.

Mr. COLOHAN

We will take Deputy Wolfe's statement that this is the first vote towards the relief of unemployment. When is the second vote to be introduced? Next year? I hope it will be next week. We have heard a good deal of talk about waterworks and sewage schemes. Undoubtedly they are very necessary in a large number of our towns but, with the best intentions in the world, how can they be put into operation immediately? What we want is to get men work at once and to give them something to eat between this and Christmas. I have letters from my constituents in the picturesque little village of Leixlip where there are fifty-one unemployed, with ninety-nine dependents, all of them have been unemployed from six to twelve months, and about eighty per cent. are not receiving unemployment benefit or home assistance. When these people read the newspapers and see that we are talking here for a couple of days about big waterwork schemes and dockyards and labourers' cottages and other things what else can they say except that we are fooling them? It is not right to fool the destitute.

There is some work that can be done immediately in that district, and I hope that the Minister for Local Government will consider this proposal. A piece of waste ground which is at present an eyesore close to the village could be planted, and there is a dangerous hill there which could be widened and levelled, as it has caused many accidents, three of which proved fatal. That is work upon which the money would all go in wages. I submit that the Minister should see, when allocating the money, that none of it should go in materials or supervision, but in wages for men who are actually taken off the unemployed list. I do not agree with giving money out of this grant for waterworks and sewage schemes, though some of my colleagues are interested in such schemes. In my opinion, they should be provided for out of other funds, but all this money should go in wages. I would support the plea put forward by Deputy Wolfe for the improvement of roads leading into the bogs in my county. I tried to get something done in that connection some years ago, but the county council would not carry it out. I think the Minister ought to get it done, as it would help the people to make a living and it would relieve unemployment.

I could go on for another hour speaking about schemes which could be undertaken under this grant, but there is not sufficient money in this vote to carry out all the work that has to be done and to meet the needs of the unemployed. There is an impression abroad in the country—I think it was sedulously spread by the newspapers—that a sum of £1,300,000 allocated for road work is available for the relief of unemployment. If that money has to be spent on trunk roads I say that it is not available at the moment, but I would like to know whether any of that money will be withdrawn from the sections to which it was allocated and given to other sections where it could be spent on main roads. I would like that point cleared up because I am sure that the people misunderstand what the newspapers have been publishing for the last fortnight. Will that £1,300,000 be withdrawn from the trunk roads grants and be allocated for the improvement of main county roads?

Mr. CORKERY

Like most of the other Deputies who have spoken, I think that this grant of £150,000 for the relief of unemployment is not going to get us anywhere. It is all right as a first instalment but some of us who live in the poorer districts really know the great amount of distress there is. In one particular portion of North Cork towards the end of last winter most of the members of one family died, if not directly, at least, indirectly from hunger. In some of the poorer districts people never get a decent meal and I hope that these districts will get at least their share of this grant, small and all as it is. We have a good many bogs in North Cork. There are bad roads leading to some of them and there are no roads leading to others. The making of roads has been sanctioned in some cases by the Land Commission and I hope when we get our share of the grant that we will be able to make these roads. Taking the conditions all round into consideration, I am afraid that this winter will be the worst which our people have had to face for many years.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

took the Chair.

Mr. CORKERY

If a scheme for waterworks is going to cost £9,000 or £10,000 I do not think that amount could be got from the grant. A great lot cannot be got out of £150,000. I take that sum as a first instalment, and I hope the Minister will hurry up with the second instalment, as there is no time to be lost. If the Minister seriously intends to relieve unemployment he will have to provide a good deal more than £150,000. We have been told by one of the Deputies that in the Minister's own constituency there is a good deal of distress. Deputy Daly had a scheme for building a large number of cottages. Deputy J.J. Byrne told us last week that £150,000 would be required for the relief of distress in Dublin alone, and Deputies from the west of Ireland say that that amount would be required for the relief of distress along the western seaboard. We in Cork require a share of it also. To relieve the distress which is prevalent throughout the country one million pounds would be necessary.

Dr. WHITE

I would put in a word for the most beautiful of our Irish seaside resorts, that is Tramore. Some years ago I put a question to the Minister for Agriculture with reference to coast erosion. Nothing has been done in connection with that, and since I put the question great inroads have been made. About 30 houses that have been recently built are in a dangerous position owing to the encroachment of the sea. If we succeed in getting £4,000 or £5,000, portion of it could be utilised in enlarging the reservoir which supplies Tramore. The present reservoir is inadequate for the purpose of supplying the town of Tramore. When the Minister for Finance is disposing of this £150,000 I hope, if he has anything to spare, that he will recollect Tramore.

Mr. KILLELEA

I would like to remind the Minister that we have no industries of any description in Galway. The majority of the people is composed of small suffering farmers. The only relief that could be given to them is in the draining of lands that are flooded for three or four months of the winter. We have in Galway hundreds of acres of land unfit for anything but afforestation. I notice the Minister for Agriculture smiling. Twice in this House I have raised the question of afforestation and the class of land that has been used for that purpose. Instead of going into mountainous districts and picking out land that is hardly able to feed a goat, as they say, and planting it, the Department is taking land that the people are fighting for and planting it. I have the names of almost 100 people who want to have that land distributed, but the Minister for Agriculture comes along and says he will not distribute it. I would like to remind the Minister that in the 1923 election, or in any election since he went to Ballygar, he never stated that he was going to plant that land. He never announced that from any public platform, and to a certain party there I believe he made certain promises.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

Is the Deputy not speaking rather against employment than for it?

Mr. KILLELEA

I am not, as I will show if I am given time to explain. If this land of which I am speaking were divided into suitable plots considerable employment would be given in that district. If the hundreds of acres of lands in the mountainous places were taken over and planted a good deal of employment would also be given there. The cost of that need not come out of this £150,000. Again, I can safely say that in the County Galway there are the worst roads in Ireland. Out of the Road Fund, from 1924 to 1926, Galway, the second largest county in Ireland, received something like one-twentieth of the total grants. In July of last year they cut that down, and Galway received only one-thirtieth as a result, and in April of this year it received only the one-forty-second part of the total vote. I believe there is something like £37,000 due to the Galway County Council for road schemes. I would ask the Minister for Local Government to try to hand over that money. We got a little last week, but if more were added to that it would be a great help and give much needed employment on road work. I hope, in the disbursement of the £150,000, that Galway will not be forgotten.

Mr. CLANCY

It might be supposed that want and unemployment are not prevalent in Limerick owing to the Shannon scheme. As Deputy J.J. Byrne said in the course of this debate, in schemes of that kind the unfortunate part of it is that it is the younger generation who get employment, and the fathers who are responsible for the upkeep of the homes are left to go as they choose, with no means of subsistence for their wives and families.

I was not conversant until quite recently with the want and the destitution prevalent in my county and in the City of Limerick. Then I came in touch with women and children huddled together in laneways. The destitution that prevails there has become very prevalent since the redundant creameries were closed. Men who used to be employed regularly in the creameries are now out of work. That has had the effect of accentuating the unemployment situation there. I met a priest in Limerick who told me that if I wanted to see distress at its worst I should go to the six o'clock Masses on a Sunday morning, which were attended by people almost naked. These people, he said, would not be seen again on the public street until the following Sunday, as they had no means of clothing themselves. That is a deplorable state of affairs, and unless something is done, and done early, to remedy distress of this kind it is unknown what will happen in the near future. The priest told me, too, that in the course of a recent visit he went into the home of a most respectable woman. He found her sitting where the fire should be. She had a large cloak around her, and, as the weather was rather warm, he asked her why she was wearing it. She told him it was the only garment she possessed; that all the other clothes and effects in her home had been disposed of to buy food for her four little children, who were in bed, and who had been three days without food. Distress of that kind is quite prevalent unfortunately in Limerick. What must the distress be in other parts of Ireland when it is so bad there?

I might make some suggestions with regard to the expenditure of a portion of this £150,000 grant in my county. I have been to the offices of the Board of Works in connection with drainage schemes. The rivers in my county are in a bad way, and should be drained. There are thousands of acres of land that need to be drained. If drainage work could be undertaken it would give a lot of employment and much-needed help to those in sore straits at the present time. Then we have a land problem in the county. There are thousands of acres to be divided. Some of it has been in the hands of the Land Commission for the last three or four years. If that land were divided up it would mean that roads would have to be made, and ditches and dykes. I appeal to the Government to allocate portion of the grant for work of that kind in my county. As I mentioned before, the amalgamation scheme carried out in connection with the creameries resulted in the disemployment of a great number of men. These men and their families are in a very bad way. The destitution that prevails in my constituency, in the City and County of Limerick, is extremely grave, and unless something is done to remedy the position there it is unknown what may happen in the future.

Mr. CONNOLLY

I desire to make an appeal on behalf of the people that I represent. For a number of years my county did not send many representatives here. Hence it did not receive the attention that other counties, more largely represented, did receive. I appeal to the Minister to give favourable consideration to some schemes which the Longford Urban Council have under consideration for the relief of unemployment. Unemployment is rampant in the County Longford. I had intended yesterday to refer to the position of British ex-soldiers, but as the motion dealing with them came before the House in a particular way I was denied the opportunity of referring to certain aspects of their position. These men and their families, who form a great proportion of the population of the county, are in dire distress. The Longford Urban District Council propose submitting certain schemes, intended to give employment, to the Minister for Local Government. I hope that he will give generous consideration to these schemes when making some of this money available for the relief of unemployment. I believe this is the first occasion that we have applied for any money for our county. There are some counties which have a very large representation in the Dáil. These representatives monopolise the Dáil to such an extent that one would almost be led to believe there was no county in Ireland except the ones they represent. Some of these counties are fairly well provided with industries and other means of making provision for the relief of unemployment.

Our little county has very few representatives here. We have so few industries that it is becoming almost impossible for the ratepayers of the county to continue to relieve unemployment to the extent that it requires. The county is in a very bad condition and has not really got much of anything that was going. Anything that was going seems to have gone to the counties with large representation here. Deputies representing a certain constituency have got a good deal. They have got Henry Ford and Sons, they have a dockyard, they have breweries and other industries which provide employment. I do not object in the least to their having these things. I admire them for their attitude in trying to collar everything to go their way. They try to get all they can for the people who sent them here, but I think this is a matter that the Executive Council should consider. Counties which have not a large representation here should, I think, get consideration from the Executive. The distress that prevails in them should merit the consideration of the Government. That unemployment is so rampant is, I think, a good deal due to the people themselves. The keynote for the relief of much unemployment has, from time to time, been given from the Government Benches, namely, that the people should buy Irish goods, buy everything manufactured in Ireland. The goods manufactured here are equal to the goods produced elsewhere, and if the people supported their own manufactures much needed employment would be given.

There is no use in finding fault with the importation of goods into this country. What we should do is to find fault with ourselves for not insisting on being supplied with Irish goods on every occasion. That is what would help to mitigate the unemployment evil. If we could succeed in providing more employment for the people that would have its effect in raising the standard of living amongst the people. One of our industries which needs special attention is the woollen industry. In my opinion it is an industry which should get protection in some form or other, and thereby enable those engaged in it to earn a decent livelihood for themselves. I hope, when the distribution of this grant is being made, that the special claims of Longford and Westmeath will receive earnest consideration from the Minister. So far we have got little or no grants. We did not apply for them, but we are now compelled by circumstances to appeal for a share of this grant for the relief of unemployment in our area. I hope the appeal which I am making will receive the favourable consideration of the Minister.

TOMAS MAC GIOLLA PHOIL

Is mian liom a rá go bhfuil áthas orm go bhfuil an cheist seo arís os cóir na Dála mar ceist isea í seo a bhaineann níos mó ná aon cheist eile le saol na ndaoine. Taisbeánann an méid suime atá curtha innte go bhfuil Teachtaí na Dála dá ríribh chun an cheist seo do réiteach. Ar an gceád dul síos ba mhaith liom a rá nách féidir é dhéanamh leis an méid seo airgid atá san Vóta san, £150,000. Níl leath a dhóthain ann. Níl ceathrú a dhóthain ann. In ionad na mílte teastuíonn na milliúin uainn. Caithfimíd an sgéal a thuisgint agus muna dtuigimíd é ní rachaimíd ar aghaidh agus beidh an cheist seo i gcomhnuí linn. Ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil gorta, bochtanas, agus ganntanas ar fuaid na tíre agus go mó-mhor ar fuaid Conntae na Gaillimhe agus sin san Gaeltacht go speisialta.

In Arainn i rith an tsamhraidh seo caithte bhí Coláiste Gaedhilge i gcóir na Múinteoirí agus bhí mé féin ann freisin.

Ar fúaid an Oileáin ní raibh le feiceáil ach gorta agus gátar go mór-mhór ins na háiteanna a bhí na daoine ag faire ar iasc mar shlí mhaireachtála. Níl gléas ná cóir ag na hiascairí. Tá na báid iascaigh a bhí aca an fhaid is bhí an coga ar siúl sa doc i nGaillimh ag tuitim as a chéile agus ag lobha. Tá sin le feiceáil ag duine ar bith. Tá timpeall le doisín aca ann. Chonnaic mé féin an dá cheann deiridh a bhí fágtha ag Cill Eana (baile beag a bhí ag maireachtáil ar iascaireacht amháin) á dtarraingt i ndiaidh an Ghaltáin (Dún Aengus) síos go Gaillimh agus ba thrua le duine na daoine bochta-fir is mná bailithe ar an gcéibh ag caoi agus ag gol go bog nuair a chonnaic siad iad á scuaba chun siúil. Ba ghnáth le na múinteoirí sa tráthnóna dul imease na ndaoine ag cainnt leo agus ag baint asta-mé féin ar dhuine aca. Bhí gátar agus ocras idir a dá súil ar pháistí laga agus gan luid den éadach ortha. Bhí cuid de sna mnáibh leath as a meabhair, cheapas, le heasba bidh agus dighe. Thug go leor de na múinteoirí an pingin deiridh, sílim, bhí na bpóca dhóibh. Chúaidh mé féin agus triúr, múinteorí eile isteach go teach oíche amháin ina raibh an mháthair agus ceathrar páistí laga. Bhíodar ar fad nách mór nocht. Ní raibh ruainne bídh sa teach ach trí iasc saillte. Thug na múinteoirí luach 25/- de bhia isteach chuichi agus thugadar beagán airgid di'na teanta sin. Cad is fáth leis an bhfíor-ghátar seo? Tá tróiléiri Shasana buailte le carraig an nách mór ag scuaba an éisc leo. Chonnaic mé 8 gcinn tráthóna amháin agus bhí cuid aca i bfoisgeacht ceathrú míle den chala—agus b'fhéidir níos goire. Bhí na daoine bochta ag leige sailm na mallacht ar an Rialtas a bhí ag tabhairt cead—Sea nách cosúil le cead é?—do Shasannaigh an bia a scioba óna mbéal. Cá bhfuil an "Mhuirchú"? Cá raibh sí oíche an Ghála? Dubhairt Fear Mór éigin go raibh sí ag an Doc i nGaillimh. Tá sáraithne aici ar an áit sin.

EARNAN DE BLAGHD

Is dó liom nách mbaineann sé seo leis an rún atá os cóir na Dála.

TOMAS MAC GIOLLA PHOIL

Baineann sé go speisíalta leis an rún. Táim ag rá nach bhfuil dóthain airgid ann chun an cheist do shocrú. Sin é an fáth go bhfuilim ag trácht ar an nganntanas in nOileán Arainn.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

Cadé an bhaint atá idir na daoine ag scuaba na n-iase agus an Rún atá ós ár gcóir?

TOMAS MAC GIOLLA PHOIL

Tá baint eatorra mar bhí sé orm a thaisbeaint go bhfuil ganntanas bidh agus gorta san Oileán agus chó fada agus tá seans tugtha do sna tróiléirí Sasanacha an t-iasc do scioba ós na daoine bochta beidh an ganntanas san i réim.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

Lean leat.

TOMAS MAC GIOLLA PHOIL

Maith go leór. Tá an sceul céanna bochtanais san Ghaillimh theas agus thuaidh agus i nGaillimh Thoir féin agus caithfidh an Rialtas an sceul do thuisgint. Is mian liom taisbeáint conus mar a bhí an sceul i gCuan na Mara cúig mhí ó shoin.

This is a letter sent in by Dr. Irwin to the County Galway Hospital Committee telling the state of distress there and asking for the matter to be remedied. In the course of the letter, the doctor stated:

"Owing to the bad weather, general poverty on the north side of the district (Glassilaun, Lettergesh, East and West; Mullaghglass, Toorine, Renvyle, and west of Renvyle), and the severe epidemic of influenza, followed by much debility in these half-starved people, it took a great deal of care and medicine to pull them round. The people in these districts live on bread and tea during this time of the year. In summer and autumn they have potatoes, milk, butter and milk and eggs, but December, January, February, March and April finds them on soda-bread and tea (generally black), there being very little milk—often none. Such a diet is semi-starvation. Now they have no money. Their little savings are gone on high taxation, and bills for flour, etc. Most of them could not exist at all without the American cheques. There is little or no employment to be obtained. Fishing is practically dead. All the young people have gone to America, and most houses have only the old people and the sick and unfits and not sufficient help to go fishing.—It was decided to supply Dr. Irwin with medicines for those he had used."

That is another example of the state of starvation and the conditions under which the people are living in a part of the constituency that I represent. In the city of Galway we find that an almost similar state of affairs exists. During the last election campaign I had occasions to visit some houses in Bothar Mor and Bothar Beag in the town, and I found the conditions appalling. Another Deputy spoke about the places for the fires being still there, and that was so in these cases— no fire, no work. In one house there were four of a family, and none of them had anything to do. They asked us if there was anything at all that we could do to try to remedy the conditions under which they were living. I think these are sufficient examples for one constituency.

I do not like to treat this matter from a constituency point of view. I do not like the way it has been brought up by various Deputies, who wanted slices of this grant. That is not the proper spirit, I think. The proper spirit would be to try to relieve distress wherever it is rampant, no matter in what constituency it is rampant. In order that that might be done on a national basis, perhaps if there was some sort of centralising committee, some two or three who would be able to weigh up the claims of different parts of the Free State and allocate the grant in a fair way, it would be the best plan. I consider, too, that it would be most advisable to have the Deputies from the various constituencies brought into consultation before the grant is distributed.

I hold that this grant of £150,000 is not nearly sufficient. Instead of thousands, I say millions are required, and unless we realise that, we will have this question coming up year in and year out. Remedial measures are necessary. but if we have not the courage to give a decent grant at once, if we give a small grant, a good deal of it must be absorbed by the special machinery that has to be set up, while if we give a big grant at once, there would be less waste. It has been stated during the debate upon unemployment, and I think during this debate too, that sufficient economic schemes were not produced. I hold that, within reason, any scheme that is produced is more economic than no scheme at all. If we have no scheme at all, it will mean that there will be deaths from starvation. I know what I am speaking about. I know, too, that the mentality of the people will be affected, that the whole race will degenerate, both physically and mentally, and perhaps morally too, if steps are not taken. Unless you grapple with this question, you will not be able to do any good in relieving distress.

First, you must realise that a state of distress exists, then get information from the constituencies through Deputies, and then arrange schemes and let the centralising authority see that the schemes are put into operation. If they are not you will have the conditions that I have stated. You will also have emigration, you will have the loss of capital represented by emigration, amounting, probably, to £150,000,000 in the lifetime of the Dáil, and you will have degeneration among our people. Economic schemes are ready. We have proposed certain schemes for drainage, for the building and maintenance of roads and for the development of the dock at Galway, on which over £50,000 was expended some years ago, but from which very little good will be obtained until a further grant is made. That scheme is reasonably economic. We cannot have everything just as we want it, but the schemes proposed for County Galway are reasonably economic; certainly they are more economic than sitting down and doing nothing.

I hold that it is not this Dáil that is altogether responsible for the present conditions; it is the people who accept responsibility—the Executive. They are the people who control the purse, and they are the people who will have to accept responsibility for the conditions that obtain in the State. Therefore, I again suggest that they should realise their responsibility; they should realise the state in which the nation is at present. If they do that, they will find that from these Benches, and I think I will be safe in saying from all the other Benches in the House, they will get remarkable support in anything they undertake for the relief of the distressed.

Mr. CAREY

I want to contribute a very small instance to this debate. The town of Midleton, which has an urban council, supplies a village about a mile away with water. Owing to the people of that village getting water into new houses, and into houses which were not previously supplied, we find that, no matter how we conserve the water, the supply is very short, and we have a scheme almost completed now for duplicating the main from the reservoir into the town which will give a larger supply to the outlying districts. As a member of the Council, I expressed the view that a certain responsibility in these matters rests upon the urban authorities and the county councils. You cannot expect the Government to accept the heavy responsibility of financing these schemes. Why do not the urban and county councils say: "We will go part of the way with you in getting material for carrying out these schemes"? In the scheme that we have for duplicating the main from the reservoir to the town of Midleton, we will contribute our part in getting the new pipes of larger bore into the town. We will carry out that work under direct labour, using every halfpenny that we get towards the scheme in direct labour and thus give employment. That is one way. Local authorities ought to have a sufficient sense of civic responsibility to ask the people to contribute some portion of the cost of carrying out these schemes, and if we put up schemes in that way, I am sure that the Minister cannot refuse to assist us. We will do our own part in Cork County, and I believe that in that way there will be very few idle.

Mr. S. JORDAN

Portion of the constituency that I have the honour to represent is a bog country, and there is a great necessity there for bog roads. We have a lot of bog in County Galway. Deputy Corkery stated that there are a lot of bogs in Cork. I do not think it is a Dublin opinion that they have a lot of bog men there, but in Galway the particular drawback in certain areas is the very bad roads that lead into the bogs. As a matter of fact, in some places there are no roads at all, for the reason that, while a road to a bog existed at one time, the people for years past have been cutting turf, with the result that the bog is getting farther away from the road. When these people save their year's supply of turf in May and June—sometimes in June and the early part of July— and when the end of July is wet, it means that they have to bring the turf out half a mile in baskets on their backs. They would not have any chance at all of taking an ass or a horse and car to take out what is called a load of turf. It is the main industry in and around Athenry, where I live. The whole place is surrounded with bog, and the people are in a bad way through not having good roads so that they can bring in a good supply of turf and obtain the necessary money to meet the calls that are made on them. In these particular places I know for a fact that practically all these people are land annuity defaulters. That is not their fault. It may be information for the House to know—whether it is a credit to Galway or not—that Co. Galway is something like £20,000 or £25,000 in debt to the Land Commission. I believe that 90 per cent. of the debts are genuine, and that the people cannot pay them because of the way they are circumstanced. Bog roads are needed in districts like Newcastle, Carrakelly and other places—I do not propose to mention any other names here, but will do so to whatever Department is dealing with the matter when the Minister makes a pronouncement which will indicate which Department we are to go to, whether to the Government Department or to the county councils. I await that pronouncement. Another matter that I would like to draw attention to, and which I already drew attention to on the unemployment debate, is on the question of preferential treatment for ex-National Army men. During the five or six days' debate on the unemployment question there was a unanimous opinion that unemployment is universal, and that every class was affected. When the Minister sums up I would like him to be clear on this point. If unemployment is universal, distress is universal, and if that is so everybody should be catered for. There should be no preferential treatment for any particular section of the community, whether ex-National Army, ex-British servicemen or "ex" anything else. Wherever deserving people are unemployed they ought to get work irrespective of any "ex," double or otherwise.

Mr. M. CONLON

It seems to me that all sections of the House agree on the question before it, that £150,000 is inadequate to meet the situation. I am sure that even the Minister himself would agree with that view. One thing that the debate has shown is, what is going to happen in connection with this grant. Apparently there is going to be a scramble between Deputies to to see that each will obtain as much as he can for his constituency. After that there will be a scramble in each area to get as much as possible. From that point of view it is a bit demoralising to have the grant distributed in that way, but I presume there is no other way of getting over the distress that prevails in the country. I would like to stress one point that was mentioned by Deputy Carey. That is the want of co-operation between the local councils and Government departments in dealing with unemployment. If the local councils gave more attention to the matter I think they could do a great deal to provide employment. As a matter of fact, I notice that most of the councils do not even make use of the facilities that were offered by the Government. I am glad Deputy Brennan, who is Chairman of the Roscommon County Council, is present, as I intend to give an example of what happened there, and other countries, I presume, are in much the same position. Under the Drainage Act of 1925 sums of money were set aside, but unfortunately the local councils are not inclined to co-operate in using that money. One scheme was sent down to the county I represent. The cost of the scheme under the Drainage Act of 1925 was £3,450. The Board of Works stated that they would ask the Minister for Finance to provide 50 per cent. of the cost of the work, and I am sure that request would have been granted. That would have meant £1,725 as a free grant. The only thing the County Council was asked to do was to provide a small portion so as to make the scheme an economic one for the people who were affected. The sum which the County Council was required to pay was £36 yearly for thirty-five years.

If some philanthropic society had offered the County Council £3,450, a sum that would effectively drain a certain number of square miles of the county, and give employment in areas that are usually far removed from the national high roads, where work is being given to other class of workmen, and which would be of great benefit to the people who owe money in the shops, I say certainly that they would be likely to jump at such an offer, especially if they would only have to pay, roughly, one per cent. for thirty-five years for interest and repayment of capital. But because the money was offered by the Government it was turned down by the County Council. I only give that as an example of what I think occurs amongst a number of county councils, and I want to stress what has been mentioned by another Deputy, the need for greater co-operation between the county councils and the Government departments. In that way a good deal of the distress could be relieved by such co-operation.

With regard to the statement of the Minister, I am afraid it will raise too many hopes. He stated that some of this money would be granted for sewerage and water-works schemes. I do not think that the £150,000 now allotted will do a great deal of work even on old roads. Considering the amount that was set aside on previous occasions, and which was used practically altogether on old drains and old roads, I do not think that there can be very much hope that a great deal of money can be set aside for sewerage or water-works schemes from this grant. If it could be done, it is most desirable, because the local councils could co-operate in that work. There are very essential sewerage schemes for a great many towns, but, unfortunately, for economic reasons—I suppose it is false economy —the boards of health and the county councils do not seem inclined to push forward those schemes. Deputy O'Dowd the other day mentioned Elphin. There is also Ballinlough, and other areas, in Roscommon, that require attention. If money could be found from this grant for those schemes, some of which have been prepared for a considerable time, it would be a great advantage. However, I am afraid it would be very difficult to do a very great amount of useful work out of the sum provided. At the same time, I agree that with the resources of the country we cannot expect any more. Representatives from various areas have stated the grievances of these areas— perhaps over-stated them in some cases. In any case, when I was endeavouring to get some of these things for the County Roscommon before, I was told by an official that Roscommon was a very rich county. I disagreed with him with regard to that. There are certain portions of the county fairly well off, none of them very rich, but there are other portions which are extremely poor. Poverty is prevalent in a great many areas there. I hope when the distribution of this grant takes place, that whoever is distributing it will not come to the conclusion that Roscommon is sufficiently rich to be able to do without any grant.

I wish to emphasise the statement made by Deputy Carey. It would be a great thing if we could get it. I know a great many county councillors do their best, but there is a number who seem to hold up every scheme put forward from some false idea of economy. Economy is all right, and keeping down the rates is all right, provided services are efficient and necessary works are carried out. I would appeal to county councillors to endeavour to get these local bodies to co-operate with the Government departments. If that is done we will not be having these votes brought up continually for the relief of distress, which amount almost to doles, and which cause a certain amount of demoralisation, because of the fact that everyone is scrambling to get what they can out of them.

Mr. BRENNAN

I quite agree with Deputy Carey and Deputy Conlon with regard to getting the local authorities to stand in with the Government in this matter. In connection with the allocation of this money, particularly with regard to sewerage and water schemes, I think that if the Government put up the money on a certain percentage basis with the local authorities, much valuable work could be done, as well as having much more money to spend for the relief of unemployment. If I am to understand from the Minister for Finance that he is to consider schemes put up by the local authorities, I think it is well that the local authorities should know that immediately, because there are county councils that under ordinary circumstances will not meet until January.

Mr. BLYTHE

A great deal of the rural work will be done through the agency of the Land Commission. Although I am not saying that county councils should not, and might not, put up proposals, the local authorities to whom most of the money will be allotted will be the urban local authorities. The main portion of the rural money will have to be spent through the Land Commission.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

Is it not possible that boards of health will have the distribution or control of money that might be granted in aid of water-works or sewerage schemes in towns that are not urban districts?

Mr. BLYTHE

Certainly.

Mr. BRENNAN

We were led to believe that one of the first charges on this would be the water and sewerage schemes. These are directly under either county councils or boards of health. If the Minister wants co-operation from local authorities in that connection he must get in touch with the county councils and boards of health. If he anticipates any help or co-operation from them, it would be desirable that he should communicate with them at once, because some of them will not be meeting in ordinary circumstances until January.

Mr. CONLON

They can call special meetings.

Mr. BRENNAN

They will want to be told that. Deputy Conlon has mentioned a concrete case in County Roscommon and said the County Council turned down a certain sum of money for drainage purposes. I must say that he is entirely incorrect in that. They have not turned it down at all—they have not turned down any scheme; they have adjourned schemes and put up a suggestion to the Board of Works to which the Board did not agree. The Board of Works submitted various schemes to the County Council. Deputy Conlon has taken out one, perhaps because it suits his purpose.

Mr. CONLON

I could give several others.

Mr. BRENNAN

£36 for a certain number of years would not be much, but considering that there are hundreds of schemes in County Roscommon it would mean a very different thing altogether. The position with regard to this scheme is that the County Council did not turn it down. The County Council believe that the estimate for doing the work was too high and that the money spent directly by the Board of Works in the county has not been well spent. We have one drainage district handed over to us at present. We have complaints from that district every day that the money expended by the Board of Works was not well spent, and the people have to pay through the nose for it. We asked the Board of Works to estimate for the work, so that it could be offered for contract or carried out by direct labour. They would not do that, and said it should be carried out as one job under their supervision. They submitted certain schemes which they had approved of, and they were simply adjourned by the County Council, not turned down. It is most unfair of Deputy Conlon, or any Deputy, to say that any county council turned down a scheme because the Government asked them to carry it out. The County Council did not do any such thing. I do not believe any county council did it. If the Board of Works would try to meet the County Council of Roscommon that Council believes that the work could be done much cheaper and more efficiently. We could get work on drains and small rivers done much cheaper by the local people. The Board of Works has not met us in the matter, and it is simply adjourned. With regard to sewerage schemes and the provision of water, if the Government come along to the local authorities and say that they will put up a certain amount if the local authorities put up a certain amount, I believe that such works will be carried out. After all, it will be only a reasonable way to deal with the matter.

I do not think it will be any use for me to start parading the distress that prevails in Co. Roscommon. Although the Minister for Finance has told us that he will receive suggestions from local authorities, Deputies have insisted on parading the distress that prevails in their constituencies. I do not think that would do any good. With Deputy Conlon, I hope that when the allocation of the money is being made, Roscommon will not be considered as a county which does not need it. It really does need it. There are portions of Roscommon which are supposed to have been dealt with already by the Government, where men have been settled on what are considered good holdings, but which are very dear. These people were settled on the land when prices were high, and they are in dire distress at present. To my mind, this is one of the problems which should be considered by the Government.

Mr. CONLON

On a point of explanation, I should like to say I got my information with regard to the drainage scheme from the local paper, which reports that after further discussion a resolution was passed refusing assent to a scheme with a county-at-large grant. If that is not true I shall be very glad.

Mr. BRENNAN

If Deputy Conlon would go to the County Council office instead of to the local paper he would get proper information.

TOMAS O MAOLAIN

Ba mhaith liom cabhrú le n-a bhfuil ráite ag na Teachtaí ó Phortláirge, Gaillimh agus áiteanna eile. Tá na daoine im' dháilcheanntar-sa fuar bocht agus táid ag feitheamh ar an Dáil seo chun a chur ar a gcumas an geimhreadh a chur díobh. Toisc go bhfuil roinnt Gaedhilge ag muinntir mo cheanntair, ba mhaith liom tagairt dá gcás agus an caoi ina bhfuilid do chur ós cóir na Dála. Ba mhaith liom a luadh cad is gá a dhéanamh má tá na daoine seo chun fanúint sa cheanntar san no má táid chun maireachaint sa tír in aon chor.

Dubhairt cuid de sna Teachtaí go raibh dóthain airgid á sholáthar sa Vóta so do riachtanaisí na huaire. Deirim-se ná fuil fiú agus iarracht á dhéanamh chun na daoine do chimeád ó ocras agus ó ghanntanas i rith an gheimhridh agus gur cheart don Dáil agus don Ard-Chomhairle leoriarracht chuige sin do dhéanamh.

I felt rather surprised when I saw the sum that was announced in the Order Paper as the sum to be allocated for the relief of distress. I am forced to the conclusion that the five days' debate on unemployment in this House has passed as I feared it would without bearing any fruit whatsoever. Deputies placed the true state of affairs in the country before the Government in the course of that debate. The exact condition of the distress was brought forcibly to their notice. Schemes were suggested that would not merely relieve unemployment but would be reproductive and would add to the wealth of the nation. Deputies informed the Government, whether they liked it or not or whether the Press published it or not, distress and semi-starvation due in many cases to mal-nutrition existed and do exist in many parts of the country, yet we find after all that debate and the conditions painted so vividly in this House, that the serious effort of the Government to tide the unemployed over the winter and to relieve the existing unemployment is £150,000, a mere drop in the ocean, put before the Dáil as a measure of relief for distress. We do not know whether that is only a first instalment. As far as I can recollect it has not been definitely stated by the Minister for Finance and none of the Deputies on the Government Benches have stated it. I am inclined to think that in the towns and in the rural areas where semi-starvation does exist, when people take up the newspapers and read that all this talk here has resulted in £150,000 being voted as the endeavour to cope with starvation and unemployment they will shout not in gladness or thanksgiving but in forcible language and will call down some pretty tough curses not only on the heads of those sitting on the Government Benches but on the heads of all other Deputies that allowed such a small vote to pass without protest.

We believe this is not a serious effort to cope with the problem, and we believe that if the Minister, when he comes to reply, does not indicate that this is only a first instalment, that the unemployed people are going to have a very grim laugh over the whole farce. I should like to support Deputy Everett in his plea for consideration in connection with the fishing areas in this country. I suggest to the Minister that when this money is being allocated, small as it is, that the areas in which distress does prevail to a very large extent should receive direct consideration without waiting for any recommendation from the economic committee set up by the Executive Council. I should like the Deputy who mentioned that all the grants were given to one particular county to remember that the constituency from which I come has no Ford factory in it, or dock-yard or shipping-yard, or anything of that nature. He must remember that although Cork is supposed to be a portion of what was once Ireland, we do not seem to get much down there of what is going, and I am sure the Cumann na nGaedheal, Farmer and Labour Deputies from my constituency would bear me out in that.

I would like to bring to the notice of the Minister one or two points in connection with the unemployment grant. If the Minister does not think they are worth considering, and if he thinks that this £150,000 is not going all to West Cork, still I would indicate to him some little items in connection with the second instalment of half-a-million, as I hope it will be, that he might consider.

Mr. ESMONDE

On a point of order may I inquire on behalf of which of the twenty-six parties in this House does the Deputy speak?

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

That is not a point of order.

Mr. H. FLINN

That is impertinence, and nothing else—I know it to be impertinent.

Mr. MULLINS

In the course of a letter that I received from one of my constituents I was asked to refer particularly to Castletownberehaven—the peninsula of Bere. I am sure the Minister for Finance will be interested in one paragraph: "This area is very hard hit, and unless something is done, and done immediately, and unless some little portion of the unemployment grant reaches us, I suggest that you should go and see the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, and ask him to commence forthwith the building of a large addition to the Clonakilty County Home, and I shall guarantee that this peninsula will send its full quota to it."

Deputies may smile at the idea of that, but remember there was a tragedy down there and we do not want any more of them if it can possibly be helped. There is also this to be remembered in connection with the statement that much of this grant might go towards house building and the clearing of sites for houses, drainage, sewerage, and all that sort of thing. In 1925, from the constituency of West Cork, some seven schemes of arterial drainage were submitted to the Board of Works. I think if the Minister will look at it he will find that these were not bad schemes at all, considering that Mr. Sheedy, who was then the County Surveyor, inspected and reported on them. He secured ordnance maps, marked them in red and reported that these schemes were not alone necessary, but that they were beneficial and productive works. These arterial drainage schemes covered an area of some eleven thousand acres, and if the Minister, when he sets about considering the disposal of this grant, would look at the files and find out what happened to those seven schemes that were submitted in 1925—they were the first in the Twenty-six Counties—it would be a boon to the people down there, and would relieve their minds anyway, and it would, if these were carried out, mean some small employment in the southern portion of the West Cork constituency.

I would like to make a special appeal in regard to Castletownbere, an area which is very hard hit as a result of the failure of one industry there, and also as a result of the tremendous amount of emigration that has resulted from the economic conditions prevailing there for the past five years. Very little would be required to provide work in that area for two hundred people. If the Minister would recollect the scheme that was submitted to him from that peninsula when the County Council agreed to provide a certain portion of the cost of dredging the foreshore of Castletown Harbour, he will recall that that was sent on to his Department. I do not know what happened it, but probably he will be able to tell us later on. Work could be provided for the people in that area, and not alone that, but good reproductive work at that, and additional employment could thereby be given to the people of that district.

As regards housing, there are seventeen insanitary houses in Kinsale condemned by the medical officer of health. There is practically no use in doing anything to cope with housing. The local authorities are not able to cope with the problem unless they are able to secure something better than the present short term loans. If the Minister does not smile too much I will suggest to him that he allow repayments of these loans for housing over a period of forty years, and we could then secure some progress in the carrying through of housing schemes which would provide employment. I have made a number of suggestions on this matter in the course of the unemployment debate and I am not now going to delay the House any further on it. I should like to add that as far as the grant is concerned it is totally inadequate, and unless the Minister is able to provide the House with some assurance that he will be able to introduce a further grant of at least £300,000 or £400,000 I am afraid that I for one, and the people that I represent down there, will not face the coming winter with any assurance whatever that a serious effort is being made to deal with the unemployment problem. Remember the winter is here; the time is short. The patience of the people will not endure too long. Nobody need take that as "rattling the sabre," as the President said. It is a solid fact. This Dáil should make an effort and the Minister should give some assurance that the present grant is only an instalment and that he will be able to introduce, after Christmas, a further grant to enable some relief to be given to these people who at present do not know where the next meal is to come from.

Mr. KILLANE

I do not want to contribute much to this debate. One thing strikes me as a matter to which nobody paid much attention. It is a matter of very much importance for the health of the people in rural areas and it is a matter that could be relieved by this grant. I refer to those places where the people use water from open wells in rural areas. We have the people in the cities and towns fairly well catered for in the matter of water supply with reservoirs and filter beds.

The people in the country districts are not protected and are not supplied with a pure water supply. We have open wells with surface drainage. In wet seasons, and we unfortunately have these pretty often, surface water filters, sometimes carrying matter from the manure of cattle into these wells. I think the money could be very well spent in those areas in having this matter attended to. In the district from which I come unemployment is very great. It is really a small farmers' district. The area of the average farm in a big portion of north Co. Longford is less than ten acres. These people cannot afford to build wells near their houses, and I think this is one direction in which the money could be very well spent. I would offer another suggestion as to the providing of employment in the same area only that I am afraid a bad use might be made of the material that would be produced there. I refer to an industry for the manufacture of munitions. There is iron ore available in the northern end of Longford, and as late as 1918 the British Government thought of establishing a munition factory there. I think if the attention of the Government were directed to it and some of the moneys that are about to be spent now were spent in this way——

Mr. HOGAN

Wells and munitions!

Mr. KILLANE

I am afraid that the Minister for Lands and Agriculture would get alarmed if I began to talk about a munition factory, but there are other domestic uses to which iron could be put——

Mr. HOGAN

Handcuffs?

Mr. KILLANE

For the moment we will leave out the idea of a munition factory. I think the other phases of this subject have already been well dealt with.

Mr. HOLOHAN

I would like to say a word about the claims of Kilkenny and Carlow. In Kilkenny and Carlow we have a number of unemployed. In that constituency and in many other constituencies, as Deputies have stated, a good deal of work could be carried on in the way of drainage, road-making, and so on. A portion of this grant of £150,000 would be very acceptable to Carlow and Kilkenny. I hope when the time comes for allocating that money the Minister will not forget Kilkenny and Carlow. At present we have been notified by the County Surveyor for Kilkenny that a number of men will be unemployed at the end of this month. The work that is supposed to be done during the summer on the roads is now practically finished. The amount of money collected from the rates and the amount got in grants and loans has been expended. Any portion of this grant will be very welcome to the counties that I represent, and I can assure the Minister that that money will be properly utilised and properly spent. We have plenty of machinery in the county, and after a time a good deal of this machinery will be laid idle. I would urge on the Minister that when he will be allocating this grant which we are considering at present that consideration will be given to a very large waterworks scheme for the County Home at Thomastown. That scheme was estimated to cost £3,000, and when it came before the Board at the last meeting, owing to the fact of its very high cost, it was turned down by the Board of Health. Now if any assistance could be given from this relief grant towards this waterworks scheme the County Council and the County Board of Health would thankfully receive it, and it would help us to carry out a road scheme as well.

Mr. WALSH

I probably will be considered as one of the persons Deputy Esmonde mentioned, but I think it is only right before the debate concludes that I should say a word on behalf of the area that I have the honour to represent—South Mayo. I think the conditions prevailing in that area are probably peculiar to itself. They are conditions of which I am sure the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Local Government are well aware. They are aware that out of the wild island of Achill every year thousands of men, women and, I might say, children have to go to the harvesting fields of Scotland and England to help themselves to exist during the winter months. What applies to Achill applies also to other portions of the constituency, but not to the same extent; that is, the women do not have to go. It applies in the Ballyhaunis area, in the Tourmakeady area and in the Irishtown area. It also applies in the area from which I come—Balla. I ask the Minister, when he is making grants under this scheme, to take into consideration the conditions now existing in South Mayo. Due to the depressed conditions in England and Scotland during the past two or three years those people had to return in several cases for the very good reason that they could not find any employment. In a great many instances that source of income was cut off.

As regards the making of grants towards waterworks, the Minister for Local Government is aware that two waterworks schemes were put up in the towns of Ballyhaunis and Ballinrobe and he is aware that for good and sufficient reasons these schemes had to be turned down. Those areas were not able to bear the overwhelming cost which the schemes would entail.

Deputy Conlon, in the course of his remarks, stated that local bodies did not co-operate with the Government to a sufficient extent. He gave as an instance a grant made towards drainage in the County Roscommon. As a member of a local body for some years and as one having a little experience in regard to those grants that have been given to local bodies for the purposes of drainage and other things, I wish to put a few facts before the Minister and the Dáil. On one occasion I supported the levy of a rate on the county at large in Mayo for a drainage scheme. That scheme was also backed by a Government grant. The Mayo County Council were faced with the proposition that if that scheme were to go through, by reason of the fact that there were hundreds of drainage schemes proposed throughout the county, we would probably have to contend with a burden of about 40/- in the £. Therefore, we could not entertain the proposal put to us by the Government. It is not fair for Deputy Conlon, or any other Deputy, to state that local bodies do not co-operate to a sufficient extent with the Government.

The Minister for Local Government has stated that there was a vast sum of money towards road construction available, and that local bodies are not, apparently, availing of it. I will give him one reason why, in some cases, at least, local bodies are not taking advantage of this source of giving employment. In the County Mayo they have a certain amount of steam-rolling and other plant for road purposes. That plant is worked to its fullest extent. The County Council staff is also worked to its fullest extent. If the County Council does what the Minister says they should do, it would mean that they will probably have to make an immediate capital expenditure of about £20,000 in getting new plant, etc., before they can take advantage of this trunk road scheme, especially in the coming months.

I now suggest to the Minister that he should waive the condition in regard to this money. He should waive the condition that the money should be devoted solely to what is called the trunk road scheme, and he should allow the county councils to devote it towards constructing what are known as third-class or bog roads, and in assisting waterworks schemes, such as they have in contemplation in Ballinrobe and Ballyhaunis. If he did put aside that condition it would relieve unemployment considerably. If he does not, the money will remain tied up for the present, and it will be no use in these districts where unemployment needs to be relieved. The trunk road scheme will have to wait, in those areas anyhow, until the county council staff and plant are available.

MINISTER for AGRICULTURE

Taking this debate all round, I think it is a most disgraceful debate. Numbers of Deputies have made long speeches. We might all have saved ourselves the trouble. Each and every one of us might have said: "We are a second-rate people; we are an inferior people, and we are utterly incapable of doing anything for ourselves." That seems to be the fact. Do we believe it? We do not here, but apparently other Deputies do.

Mr. GORRY

I would like to add a few words to what has been said already regarding the large amount of unemployment throughout the country. At the outset I would plead for a particular type of unemployed that I think is deserving of careful consideration. I refer to unemployment existing among small farmers. I am sorry there are so many men unemployed, but that type of unemployed person is suffering all the time. He is expected to have his land annuities and his rates, etc., ready. In any schemes we draw up for the relief of unemployment we should supply some work for that type of unemployed person. Useful work could be done on the by-roads in the country. I believe, at present, there is too much attention being given to main roads and too little attention to by-roads. I ask the Minister for Local Government to give county surveyors more discretionary powers in dealing with any funds available in this connection. I think most Deputies will realise the conditions relating to by-roads. Ratepayers are not able to meet their rates at present, and consequently the county surveyors' estimates have to be cut down in a lot of cases.

It may be false economy to cut down the rates, but it is certainly the truth that the ratepayer is not able to carry the present burden of taxation. I appeal therefore to Deputies in future to try and have that burden transferred from the local authority and the ratepayer to the Government, so that the central authority will bear the cost of road work. That would be a more practicable way than asking small farmers and other ratepayers to carry their present burden. I agree that the present vote is too small. I hope that more money will be available later and that in framing our schemes we will try to get the money spent on reproductive work. There is plenty of useful work to be done in every county. I support the view of Deputies who have said that rather than look at this problem from a narrow point of view we should look at it from a broad national aspect and spend the money in areas where it is most required.

I have been stormed with letters from my constituents in Leix, where the unemployment problem is very urgent in many centres. Portlaoghaise and Mountmellick are two towns which need close attention from the County Council. Waterwork schemes have been prepared in both places and they would be in progress now but for the inability of the ratepayers to carry the burden which would be imposed if loans were raised locally for these purposes. I think Portlaoghaise calls for particular attention as in that town there are a mental hospital, with seven or eight hundred inmates, a jail, with two or three hundred people, a military barrack and an infirmary. That town needs assistance in carrying out its scheme. Mountmellick has a water scheme prepared, but that work could be deferred until the Barrow drainage has been taken in hand, as they are badly affected by flooding there. I am glad that the Barrow scheme is being pushed on. I know the conditions of the people in Mountmellick district. These conditions are appalling. Dwelling houses are often flooded, and that has been the condition of things as long as I can remember. I hope that the Minister will speed up matters in that area, and I am glad that I have received an assurance from the Board of Works that they are inquiring into the matter.

I have received a letter from a labouring man in Daingean (Offaly) in which he states that there are 45 men unemployed in that district who are appealing for road work in that district. They have not been employed for weeks. There are amongst them 19 married men with large families. I suggest that portion of the road grant could be used on the road from Portarlington to Birr, a road which is carrying six buses and which passes through Mountmellick and Clonaslee, towns in which there is a large amount of unemployment. The money could also be usefully spent on bog roads. I support Deputy Buckley's contention about these roads because the conditions in some of these places are appalling. People have often to get their turf through laneways which smash their carts. There are tons of turf locked in the bog to which the people cannot get access. Again I say, the attention of the county councils should be called by the Minister for Local Government to the by-roads, upon which more money should be spent. There are country districts in which there are five or ten men unemployed, but they never think of going to register themselves, though they have as much claim on our sympathy as the men near towns who keep on the register. I think we could usefully add money to the unemployment benefit so that there would be money to give men a fair weekly wage on useful work. In that way we would be doing a service to these men and to the country by getting good results for the money we are spending. I would call the attention of the Minister for Agriculture to the Killinure area of Leix where much good work could be done in the way of afforestation. The Department are carrying on useful work there, but much more could be done. There is land there which is useless for anything but planting. It could be cleared and made ready for planting.

Dr. HENNESSY

In connection with the allocation of the grant under discussion perhaps I may be permitted, if only by way of change, to take the nation as my constituency. I am very pleased to see the interest which Deputies are taking in sanitary matters, and I hope they take that interest for the sake of sanitation alone and not as a means of extracting sums of money towards their particular constituency and putting the people there under an obligation to them on election day. Housing has been mentioned in connection with the way in which money may be well spent. The urban districts are very much more in need of houses than the rural districts. Wherever the local authorities did their duty, and I must say they did it very well in different counties, the agricultural labourer is well provided for in the way of houses which are provided at a cheap rate. I cannot, however, say the same of the urban districts. Housing there is very bad and the big percentage of houses, especially in those areas inhabited by poor people, is unfit for human habitation. In the way of sanitation, it is a melancholy fact that we must admit that we in Ireland are only on the fringe of civilisation.

Very often sanitation is of the most primitive and disgusting character, especially in towns. I am glad to see that the Minister for Local Government and Public Health will give the sanitary aspect his careful consideration. I think we are fortunate in having him as our present Minister for Local Government and Public Health. He was at one time a medical student, and I think he has profited by his experience since he became administrator of his Department. I have heard a good deal about the repair of by-roads. My experience is that very big sums of money are spent in spreading loose stones in these days. It would be just as well to sprinkle the roads with salt or Jeyes' Fluid, as these stones are scattered every time a few motor cars pass. They cannot be called repairs. They have no binding material, and it is pure waste of money to put them on the roads. I do not intend to delay the House any longer, as the discussion seems to become interminable. It is due to the fact that we take a narrow local view and speak of our own constituencies. I think that is regrettable. I believe that if there was an estimate of the expense of reporting the speeches in this House it would be found that a good deal of money could be diverted to the relief of unemployment that is spent on the reporting of the speeches.

Mr. FLINN

I have been told not to be very cross, but I am afraid I am going to be worse than that—I am going to be rather uninteresting.

A DEPUTY

That will be a change.

Mr. FLINN

I have been told I have listened a good deal to the two debates on this question, and I have read, which is perhaps a better thing to do in relation to a debate of this kind, every word that has been said, wise or otherwise. I come now to speak on the question with a considerable sense of difficulty, because I find that there have really been only two speeches delivered in the whole discussion, and that those two speeches have failed in the test in which good constructive debating speeches ought to be successful, that is, in coming to a clash and finding in a clash a solution of the difficulty. There has been from practically every member of the House—and I am not criticising or blaming anyone, as I know the difficulty—statements of the conditions in their own particular constituencies how money could be spent there and how employment could be given. With reference to the two speeches I have mentioned, there have been in one of the speeches just the two or three words that were essential: "Where am I to get the money?" These two speeches did not come to a clash, and until two speeches are delivered which do come to a clash, or until we can find some means of co-ordinating these two statements, no matter how long we discuss this question here, we will not do the slightest good.

We must find some agreement on principle as to how, and under what conditions, money should be found, and how and under what actual conditions it should be spent. I am speaking frankly with no feeling that I am going to solve the difficulty, but merely that we may re-orientate a debate on such lines that when we come to a debate of the character we are going to have in a few weeks hence, when we get the report of the committee on unemployment, and we have another debate, as we no doubt will, on the second instalment of this money, we may have clearer ideas as to the relation between what is required and what can be done, and under what conditions it should be done. To find money for temporary employment is to burden those producing, or the savings of past production, or to draw a bill on the future production of those so brought into employment, or of posterity.

Under what conditions and to what amount can existing industries and savings or future industry and savings be called upon to relieve temporary unemployment? The moneys which could be called wholly upon are: (1) All money which can be immediately employed to immediately produce the standard rate of wages for existing capital without reducing the return or productivity of existing employed capital is well employed in this work. (2) All money which can be shown to be capable of being made reproductive on this standard within a reasonable time. (3) All money which under the same conditions can be shown to be capable of use under conditions which will merely extinguish its own liability by interest and sinking fund. (4) All money which can fulfil any of the above conditions, taking into account the existing distributed burden of the cost of maintaining the existing unemployed. That covers, as far as I know, all the money which can be legitimately and immediately called upon from the community on an economic basis. The other moneys to be expended must be judged by some social or moral value in their use or some social or moral responsibility by the community itself to individuals, extinguished in the process of use. These are general principles which may not appear very helpful, but some general principles we have to find. What I suggest is that as between the second, third and fourth edition of this debate which we are going to have, that every thoughtful member of this House who feels a responsibility for the continuing evil of recurrent unemployment will try and formulate for himself and try to bring into some coherent system, some statement of principle which will allow this House to decide what unemployment, under what conditions and under what burden to the community, should be relieved.

Mr. T. SHEEHY (Cork, West)

I wish to endorse what has been said by Deputy Hennessy with regard to the wretched housing conditions that exist for our workers in urban towns. In Skibbereen, the town I come from, the doctor has condemned 70 houses as insanitary. The same story may be told of most of the houses in the urban areas throughout West Cork. I appeal to the Minister for Finance, when allocating sums for housing, to consider the conditions in these towns. In Skibbereen, when our local council was building its last scheme of artisans' dwellings, the Government was kind enough to give us a substantial sum. Our council met the Government on that occasion. If the Minister is kind enough to consider our next scheme when it comes up to him we are prepared to do our part. I agree with what Deputy Carey said, that public bodies should co-operate with the Government, and not throw all the burden on them. I promise, for the Skibbereen Urban Council, that we will do our part, and I am satisfied that the Government, when the time comes, will do its part.

Mr. T. O'REILLY

I was glad to hear the Minister for Finance state that money would be available for bog roads. I would direct the attention of the Minister to Kerry, particularly to South Kerry, which is a part of the Gaeltacht and a congested area. The people are poor there, and distress is prevalent. There is no parish in South Kerry where bog roads are not necessary. Sums applied in that way would not only give the poor much-needed employment, but would help to tide them over the winter. If the Government have the preservation of the Gaeltacht at heart they should have no hesitation in giving special consideration to this district when allocating the grant. I was much impressed when the Minister for Local Government stated recently that schemes of work to relieve unemployment would be favourably considered. In view of that statement I have already submitted schemes of work to the Irish Land Commission, and I hope the Minister will be as good as his word, that he will have these schemes favourably considered and put into operation immediately in South Kerry.

Mr. NALLY

I desire to draw the attention of the Minister to a part of South Mayo where acute unemployment exists at the present time. In the parish of Kiltimagh there are, I understand, about 300 persons unemployed. In that parish the valuations of the small farmers vary from 30/- to £4. Something should be done there for the purpose of opening bog roads or, at least, repairing them. In the parish of Kilkelly there are 250 people unemployed. Their valuations run from about £2 to £4. In Aughamore there are about 200 people unemployed; in Knock, 150; Kilvine, 300. In the Westport district there are 450 people unemployed. In Manulla district there are 200 unemployed, Claremorris, 150; Hollymount, 200; Ballinrobe, 400; Achill, 750. In those areas all the unemployed could be provided with work if the Land Commission speeded up the making of roads through the new farms which they have taken over, and in the building of fences. There are also in that district two towns which are in a very bad condition in regard to the need for a waterworks scheme—Ballyhaunis and Ballinrobe. As I understand it, their borrowing capacity is about £4,500, but the water supply scheme will cost about £8,000. I hope the Minister will come to the rescue of these areas and do something for them. I hope that when the allocation of the grant is being made that these matters will be attended to by the Minister.

Mr. BLYTHE

I agree with Deputy Flinn as to the question of the utility of this debate, although I am not sure that a debate of the sort that he would desire to have could so well arise on a mere motion for the granting of a sum to be expended immediately in giving relief. We might have it on the general principle, and if we could get a good debate on the general principle it would be useful. The mere retailing of local matters here is not very much help to anybody, except perhaps electorally to the Deputy who retails them. A sum of £150,000 is not, perhaps, a very large sum, but it is £120,000 more than was expended in this way last year. So far as we can find, it is almost as much as it would be possible to expend, taking any sort of care to have the money spent economically between this and the end of the year. In previous years, sums like £336,000 and £340,000 were spent, but in these years there was a relief vote in the original estimate, so that the expenditure of the money began in April, and was continued right through the year. Taking a relief vote for the first time this year now, it is not possible to expend between this and the end of the year very much more than the sum of £150,000. It might not be possible to expend any more. It might, on the other hand, happen that schemes of such a character would be put up that more could be spent. What could be spent has to be seen in the working out, but our previous experience in dealing with these grants has been that not more than £150,000 could be expended if we looked on it with any care at all between this and the end of the financial year.

On previous occasions about half the money roughly was expended through the local authorities, mostly those with control over urban areas, and roughly half of it by the Land Commission. I only mention that as an indication of how it is likely to be spent. The best work that could be done to give employment in the really poor rural areas is the making of bog roads. It is really economic work. You could not get a rent out of it, or a direct return in money, but it is economic, and the community gets full value for what is spent if the money is carefully spent. It is perhaps more economic than other classes of expenditure.

With regard to the towns, we would not think of paying the whole cost of any sewerage scheme or water-works scheme. What we would do is, we would give sufficient to induce a council which was hesitating to get on with a work to make a start. Nothing can be given in this financial year unless the preparations for schemes are fairly well advanced. There are towns which have schemes ready, and there is nothing holding them up but the question of money. We might, on a scheme of £15,000, give £3,000 or £5,000. It would all depend on the circumstances. We would not necessarily say that the whole of the sum we gave to a particular scheme should be expended this year. What we would expect is if we gave a grant of £3,000 to a scheme that more than £3,000 would be spent on it before the end of March. It might be that we would not be able to pay over the £3,000 before the end of the year, because the scheme might not have sufficiently advanced.

With regard to the question raised by Deputy Corish, we want to stretch the money. If there was one place where we, by spending £3,000, could get £9,000 more spent, we would prefer that to a scheme where our £3,000 only got £2,000 more spent. We must have regard to the conditions in the various districts, and make use of all the information available—information that might come to us from Deputies, from local bodies, from employment officers in the Department of Industry and Commerce, from the police, clergy or anybody making representations to us. We will try to spend the money mostly where the want is greatest, having regard always to the desirability of doing something that is of some value. It was said at one time that the British Government carried out relief work, and that what they did was to put one gang of men digging earth out of a hole, and another gang of men filling it in again. What we want to do is work that is of a definite value in itself, and as far as possible work that is sufficient value for the expenditure. We cannot always do that.

Reference has been made to drainage. Except in one or two cases, nothing can be done in the matter of drainage in the winter period. Work is going on in connection with the Barrow but the ordinary small drainage schemes which Deputies have in mind simply cannot be touched in winter. We have to find other means than those of giving work. Deputies said that there should not be political tests in a matter of employment. One of the reasons which most strongly operated in my mind, when we decided not to include any sum for relief grants in the ordinary Estimates of the present year, was that I did not want to have money on relief grants being expended during, or immediately prior to, the general election. Deputies will understand that that would be a very undesirable thing since they heard in this House some Deputies magnifying the wants of their particular districts.

The position as regards the employment of ex-army men was made clear by President Cosgrave on a previous occasion, and also, I think, by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. With reference to the subsidy that was given to the dockyard at Cobh, about which I was asked a question and to which Deputies Anthony and Hennessy referred, I have great doubts about the principle involved. The Committee of Public Accounts examined the matter and they put a paragraph in their report, but it seems to me that either they were not very clear about it or they did not like to be too emphatic. If you pay a subsidy, except for a very limited period, to any one firm anywhere, it is difficult to see why it should not be paid to any other firm which could make the claim that they would give increased employment if they got such a subsidy. If we began in that way, the matter might be endless. It would lead to enormous difficulties and to many financial and economic disadvantages. I think, also, that it is somewhat doubtful what extra employment actually was given or would be actually given. At the same time, where we have very acute distress, we cannot rule out altogether any form of relief, if it is at all permissible.

No matter what sum would be put down in the Estimate, Deputies would say it was utterly inadequate. We have got to bear in mind that if we are going to find money regularly for this purpose, we must find it by taxation. If we increase the burden of taxation, we tend necessarily to lessen employment in other directions. We have, consequently, got to be careful. You certainly cannot remedy the evil of unemployment by taking unlimited sums out of the pockets of the taxpayers who are engaged in production and permitting the State to spend them. Apart from the cost of the operation, which would be considerable in itself, it is difficult to make expenditure by the State efficient. I do not think it is a good thing that Deputies should magnify the wants of their districts or should incline too much to throw the whole burden upon the State. As a matter of fact, local authorities could often face up to the difficulty better than they do. There is a tendency on the part of local authorities, sometimes, to get popularity, on the one hand, by cutting down rates and by refusing to expend money on anything and, on the other hand, to get another sort of popularity by clamouring for increased expenditure by the Government and, if such expenditure comes along, taking credit for having got so much money brought into the district.

We cannot get along in that way. I have stated here that I believe that for economic schemes—really economic schemes—we can get any money we want, or are likely to want. If we can get schemes like the Shannon scheme, or any scheme that is economic, or promises to be economic, or even a scheme which promises to be nearly economic, we can get any amount of money for it, and employ people according to the size of the scheme. The real difficulty is to get the schemes that are economic or nearly economic. The difficulty we find in connection with drainage is that even with a grant of fifty per cent. a great many schemes would not be economic to the owners. There are other factors which might be taken into account, such as improved health, and so forth; those would increase the value of those schemes, but it is difficult to get schemes which you can regard as economic, and which people outside will regard as economic, and for which money can be borrowed at reasonable rates. There is no easy way out of the difficulty. I was glad to hear Deputy Flinn suggest if, sometime, people willing and able to do it, debated the principles of the matter it would be useful.

Mr. LAW

Before the Minister concludes, I desire to put a question. The Minister has indicated generally the lines on which the allocation will be made. I understand that in all probability—I do not want to bind the Minister definitely—something like half the sum will be allocated to the Land Commission——

Mr. BLYTHE

Very roughly.

Mr. LAW

Will the Land Commission be the final arbiter of the schemes which are to be adopted? The matter is obviously urgent. The money must be spent before the 31st March, and people are in actual poverty. Delay is, therefore, the last thing we want. I hope the Minister will consider this point of view, and that it will not be necessary to refer each individual scheme to its own Department for sanction before the money is actually expended. I hope that will be understood. If he cannot give that undertaking, I hope he will give an undertaking that he will see that his Department will expedite consideration of this matter.

Mr. BLYTHE

We dealt with this particular problem before, and no delay occurred. Except some very big sum was being expended in a locality by the Land Commission we would not ask that they should have previous sanction.

Mr. S.T. O'KELLY

Ma tá cead agam, ba mhaith liom ceist do chur ar an Aire. Níor dhubhairt sé aon nidh i dtaobh na cathracha. An mbeidh aon airgead ar fáil ag Baile Atha Cliath agus ag na cathracha eile?

EARNAN DE BLAGHD

Beidh.

Mr. MORRISSEY

The Minister said that £150,000 was as large a sum as could possibly be spent before the end of the financial year upon what he called, I think, sound schemes. If the Minister finds that he can spend more than £150,000 before the end of the financial year upon sound schemes, will he come to the House and ask for more money?

Mr. BLYTHE

Yes, if the money can be expended on sound schemes in districts where there is real distress.

Mr. CORISH

May I repeat a question which I put on Friday? The Minister suggested that for a scheme of waterworks only a part of the money would be supplied by way of grant. Would the remainder of the money be available out of the Local Loans Fund?

Mr. BLYTHE

Yes.

Mr. CORISH

Would both these avenues be available?

Mr. BLYTHE

Yes.

Mr. CORISH

One would not disqualify the other?

Mr. BLYTHE

Not at all. The Local Loans Fund is now open for these public health schemes, both water and sewerage.

Mr. DE VALERA

With respect to this allocation, might I ask the Minister if the Ministry is to be the sole judge of what schemes are to be good and what schemes are not, and is there any guarantee that certain constituencies will not be unduly favoured and others penalised?

Mr. BLYTHE

You will have to depend on the Minister. There is no way to arrange that except by depending upon the probity and honour of the Minister. If that cannot be done you can make no arrangements.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

As regards the City of Dublin, will there be an opportunity for others than able-bodied men to be employed?

Mr. BLYTHE

I presume that the money expended in Dublin will be expended by the City Commissioners. I do not know if they have any rules, nor do I think they should have rules, that only people in the prime of life should be employed. I think Deputy Byrne suggested that he feared that only men of thirty or thirty-five years would be employed. I do not think they have any rules, or should have any rule of that kind.

Mr. ANTHONY

Will the same apply to Cork?

Mr. S. JORDAN

Is the preferential clause going to come down the country with the money, as in the past?

Mr. BLYTHE

I think so.

Mr. S. JORDAN

Would you please state definitely whether it will or not?

Mr. BLYTHE

Oh, well, I have no reason to alter it. But the preferential clause does not mean what several Deputies have indicated it might mean. The matter was explained previously in the Dáil.

Mr. S. JORDAN

I will give you an instance in the place where I come from.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is not a question.

Mr. S. JORDAN

He says it does not mean what I say it means.

Mr. MOORE

With regard to the money that is to be spent by the Land Commission, will that be spent only where the Land Commission is operating, or universally through the rural areas?

Mr. BLYTHE

Of course it may not be spent unless the Land Commission sends somebody there. But the Land Commission have men who are used to this work; they have gangers, and machinery which enables them to undertake it. If it can suitably be done in some district where the Land Commission is not operating we might get them to come in. In other places we may have to have it done by the local authority instead of by the Land Commission or perhaps where the Board of Works have been doing work they may be able to manage it.

Mr. MacENTEE

In view of the fact that the money for this relief grant is provided by the taxpayers generally, without any distinction of Party, will the Minister say upon what grounds he proposes to retain this clause regarding ex-Army men?

Mr. BLYTHE

That is a matter that we would have to debate at some length.

Mr. MacENTEE

I think we ought to hear. If you can justify the preferential clause I think it is your duty to do so before the vote is taken.

Mr. BLYTHE

This is a big matter and would take some time to discuss.

MINISTER for DEFENCE (Mr. Fitzgerald)

The Army is National, not Party.

Mr. BRISCOE

Could the Minister tell the House to what extent this preferential clause will operate through the Commissioners in the City of Dublin? Would he indicate to the Commissioners that they might give fair consideration to men other than National ex-servicemen?

Mr. BLYTHE

There is no suggestion that there should be, nor should I stand for the idea that there should be any exclusive employment of ex-National Army men, and that preference has been gradually modified. When the men were turned out of the Army in large numbers there was a case for their almost exclusive employment, or for a very high degree of preference for them. As the time since a large number of them were demobilised from the Army lengthened, gradually the case for preference became less.

Mr. BRISCOE

I am rather worried as a result of the announcement made by Deputy Cooper that next month a thousand ex-National Army men——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is not a question. It is a point of worry.

Mr. CLEARY

Is the Minister aware that there are ex-members of the National Army who are in receipt of pensions and who, under the preferential clause, will be put working on the roads, while men whose families are starving and who are not in the Army will be left out?

Mr. BLYTHE

I do not think that is so.

Mr. BRISCOE

Could I put this question——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

No, the Deputy could not.

Mr. S. JORDAN

Arising out of the Minister's answer that preferential treatment is not as rife as we thought, I would like to ask the Minister if he is aware of this fact——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I am sure this is a recital.

Mr. S. JORDAN

No, it is not. I want to put it in the form of a question.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

We will be going on for ever.

Mr. S. JORDAN

Are you aware of the fact——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I am going to put the question now.

Mr. MATTHEWS

Might I ask the Minister this question? There are several roads in Meath which are cul-de-sacs, near which the Land Commission will not be operating. If it was proved to the Minister that there was unemployment in the district, and if the County Council would be willing to pay portion of the capital sum to make these roads, would the Minister consider the question of contributing?

Mr. BLYTHE

I could not answer a question like that.

Resolution put and agreed to.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Resolution reported.

Question—"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in the resolution"— put and agreed to.