Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 May 1928

Vol. 23 No. 8

PUBLIC BUSINESS. - GAS REGULATION BILL, 1928—SECOND STAGE.

I move the Second Reading. The main object of this Bill is to secure uniformity with regard to the testing of meters through which gas is sold to the public. Any regulations which exist at present depend upon the Act of 1859, and while the provisions of that Act were fairly satisfactory the application of that Act is entirely unsatisfactory, because there was this peculiar limitation put upon the operation of that Act: By the terms of the Act itself it could only become operative in the areas of whatever local autho- rities definitely established it as operative within a certain period after the passing of the Act, and, in fact, the only two authorities in this country who took advantage of it were Dublin and Cork. The local authorities in Dublin and Cork alone adopted the 1859 Act, and the result has been that since the passing of that Act consumers of gas supplied by all but two gas companies in the Free State had no statutory provision made with regard to the testing of meters. Another Act followed; the Gas Regulation Act of 1920 was passed with the idea of bettering the position which was found to have occurred here owing to the peculiar limitation of the 1859 Act. In fact, the 1920 Act also failed to improve matters in this country as far as meter-testing was concerned, but it improved it in other respects; in so far as meter-testing was concerned it made no improvement, because it gave no legislative power even to local authorities which had adopted the 1859 Act to test meters except meters for use in the area of the particular local authority, so that the joint effect of the 1859 and the 1920 Acts was that only two local authorities had adopted the 1859 Act. They were the only two who had compulsion with regard to the testing of meters, and even these two could not test meters brought in from other areas for use outside these areas. The Bill proposes to remedy all that while requiring that every meter through which gas is delivered for sale shall be properly verified and stamped, and it further requires, in order to get away with the impediments to the 1920 Act, that every inspector appointed by the local authority shall test any meter presented to him no matter where the future use of the meter is intended to be. I should not be taken as saying that the gas companies have availed of the peculiar provisions of the 1859 Act. Quite a number of smaller companies have, in fact, voluntarily kept meters tested, and the authorities of Dublin and Cork, although not bound, have in fact tested meters for these people. It only means now that all the other undertakers will be put in the same position as certain companies have put themselves voluntarily.

The second section of the Bill enables extensions to be made in the number of meter-testing stations if ever it be found necessary. It is expected that it will be found necessary, and as the establishment of a station of this sort is a rather expensive matter it has been decided to limit the possible extension to country boroughs. Sections 3 and 4 impose obligations with regard to the verification of stamps which has been spoken of as being the main object of the Bill. Sections 5, 6 and 7 are for the purpose of making it clear that the Saorstát Eireann stamp on gas meters will alone be valid, and this provision is necessary by reason of the fact that there is a practice whereby a number of companies have imported into this country meters stamped in England or Scotland, and the claim has been made that on account of a certain obscurity in the law that stamp should be counted as being sufficient without any further stamp in this country. Sections 5, 6 and 7 will clear up whatever obscurity there has been said to be in the law and will make it essential for the future that in order to enable a meter to be valid the Saorstát Eireann stamp will have to be on it. There is a provision in Section 5 that meters already in use will have to be stamped within a period of twelve months. The usual representation has been made to me that the twelve months period does not give enough time. I have had certain representations made on that matter and I think interviews are bound to follow. If the period is not found suitable it will be a matter of meeting the exigencies of the situation. It may be found necessary to have the period extended, but twelve months is thought, at the moment, to be a proper period It may have to be extended.

Section 8 gives additional security; it enables inspectors to ascertain whether meters have, in fact, been stamped or not. Up to the present the only duty laid upon a gas inspector was the examination of such meters as were presented to him. It is necessary that we should have some means of ascertaining whether all meters in stores or in the premises of gas companies have, in fact, been tested. Section 9 deals with the testing of gas as opposed to the testing of meters by the extension of the expression "gas undertaker" which is provided in Section 3. Gas undertakers will have to apply for an order under the 1920 Act authorising them to adopt the thermal system of charge. There are sixty-eight undertakers—gas companies—and of these forty-six are non-statutory and the extension of the term in Section 3 will enable these people to apply for an order under the 1920 Act enabling them to adopt the thermal system instead of the system previously in use. Section 9 also takes away certain small limitations that were imposed in respect of charges for gas and which have been found unnecessary.

Section 10 is one of these sections of legislation by reference. The reference in this case is simply to the first two lettered paragraphs of sub-section (1). It simply substitutes "the Minister" for "quarter sessions," enabling the particular Minister to act in lieu of quarter sessions in regard to the appointment of gas examiners. The next two lettered paragraphs, C. and D., substitute days which have been found, in fact, to be more convenient to gas companies in relation to the dates for the fixing of the rate of charge and the payment of contributions to the gas fund. The last lettered paragraph of that sub-section is to correct an error in the 1920 Act by which Ireland is entirely omitted from the provisions of the section. The other sub-section is to enable certain expenses incurred by the Minister under this Act or the Act of 1920 to be payable out of the gas fund.

Section 11 is an important section. It is set out here to remove a particular anomaly. In Dublin there are, in fact, two Acts in operation. There is a private Act obtained by the Gas Company in 1874 and in addition there is the Act of 1920. Under the private Act of 1874 it was required that the Board of Trade should appoint a special gas examiner. Under the 1920 Act it was laid down with regard to the country that appointment should be made by local authority and that the examiner should act under direction of the Board of Gas Referees. The 1874 provision was not repealed by the 1920 Act with the result that up to date it has been compulsory to appoint two examiners in Dublin. It is quite clear that only one is required and this allows for one in the future. That person appointed by the Dublin authority will continue to act under direction of the Gas Referees.

I do not want to make it appear that I am opposing this Bill, because I recognise that it contains many useful provisions. At the same time, I would like to have certain reassurances from the Minister in connection with some of the sections of the Bill. I may say, in passing, that while we have in Section 1 several terms used in the Bill defined—for instance we have the expression, "the Minister,""The Act of 1859,""The Act of 1860" and "The Act of 1920," and the word "meter" all defined—we have no definition of the word "gas" itself. I do not suggest that it will come about. It may be, if Yankee slang, perhaps Cockney slang, or even Dublin slang, becomes common and accepted as many other words have passed into the English language, that gas will have a different meaning from the meaning which was attached to it fifteen years ago. Commonly the expression "gas" used in Dublin does not mean the stuff that passes through tubes and which we light occasionally. The term "gas" has not been defined. I am not going to make a great point about that, but at the same time I think it would be useful to have the word defined.

Section 5 secures that all meters now in houses and shops shall be re-tested within twelve months. The Gas Company may endeavour to extend this period, but in the future the term which all those engaged in the industry of making those gas meters would suggest would be at least two years, for the very obvious reason that if there is a large demand in the near future for gas meters, as the result of the passing into law of this Bill, it is quite possible that the Dublin makers of gas meters may not be able to deliver the goods in a short period. If the period were spread over two years it would enable the people engaged in the industry to supply all the meters required in Dublin, and perhaps outside it. However, I understand that the people engaged in this industry in the Saorstát will be able to supply all the meters required for this purpose, if they get two years, at least. That is one of the things upon which I would like to have some reassurance from the Minister in charge of this Bill. In that connection, I would like to say that quite recently a number of these meters were supplied on the order, I understand, of the Dublin Alliance Gas Company, and these meters were taken from the stock of a London Company, having a depôt here in Dublin which, of course, incidentally deprives a number of Irish workers in this industry of employment.

As I have already said, this London factory was able to accumulate stocks during the summer, and when the order was placed by a Dublin company for gas meters they were supplied out of the stocks in London and dumped here. That is a state of affairs which I hope will not be repeated, and I trust that the Minister will see that the effect of this Bill will not be to increase further importations into the country. I also suggest that there should be a limit to the time for re-testing meters. It is common knowledge that there are two classes of meters in ordinary use, the dry meter and the wet meter. The prolonged use of a dry meter usually tells against the consumer, whereas the prolonged use of the wet meter generally results in favour of the consumer. The tendency, therefore, is to substitute dry for wet meters, and for that reason I suggest that there should be a limit to the time in which these meters should be tested. As the makers guarantee these meters for five years, I suggest that that should be a limit of time for testing them. In answer to a question put by me on the 27th of April last, in which I asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce to state the number and value of gas meters imported into the Free State for the periods 1st of January to 31st of March, 1927, 1st of January to 31st of December, 1927, and 1st January to 31st of March, 1928, the Minister replied that the following were the quantities and values of gas meters and gas meter fittings imported in each of the specified periods: 1st of January to 31st of March, 938 cwt. I am not sure that that is the right term. I think it should be 938 gas meters each weighing one cwt. However, the value is given as £9,478. For the period 1st of January to 31st December, 1927, the figures given are 2,502 cwt., and the value £24,562. From the 1st of January to the 31st of March, 1928, the figures are 1,126 cwt. of a value of £13,076.

I want to emphasise the necessity of having some effort made through the provisions of this Bill to provide that, as there will be large numbers of meters ordered as a result of the operations of this Bill, the period should be lengthened to, at least, two years. The time mentioned in the Bill is twelve months. Another point on which I want information is as to the qualifications of the inspector, the conditions he will have to fulfil, such as his training, and the reading of meters. In my opinion he should possess a somewhat mechanical or professional knowledge of meters. I suppose we are all agreed that it is very necessary to save the public, the consumers of gas, from, I will not say fraud, but certainly defective meters, and that the system of inspection as well as the qualifications of the inspector should be such as would provide the best possible safeguards under this Bill. I would also like to be reassured on this point, namely, that the Minister would see that Irish-made meters would get a preference in the new corporation and urban district council houses when gas companies get permission to instal meters there. As I have already indicated, I do not want it to appear that I am opposing the Bill, which in my view contains some useful provisions, but I am making suggestions in the hope that the Minister will make some provision by inserting a clause which will ensure that these meters will be made in the Saorstát in order to provide for the requirements of its citizens.

I think it is not likely that there will be opposition to the Bill at this stage. As the Minister has said, it is merely bringing existing legislation up to date, and we will be able to discuss the different sections in detail on the Committee Stage when, perhaps, it will be thought advisable to insert some of the amendments to which Deputy Anthony has referred. There is one matter, however, which can be mentioned as affecting the principle of the Bill and which would not arise directly on the Committee Stage, namely, the matter of meters in use in the country. I think it would not be too much to ask that any of the meters which will bear the new stamp enacted in this measure should be produced in factories in this country. There are, I think, two plants in Dublin, each capable of turning out from 300 to 400 meters a week. Deputy Anthony was correct in the information he has concerning one factory. It is a branch of an English concern. In August last there were forty tinsmiths employed in making gas meters. The firm received an order for 5,000 meters but they imported them from their English headquarters, with the result that there was no work for the forty tinsmiths, who were dismissed, and now there are only six men employed. We are competent in this country to turn out all the gas meters that we require. I believe that the operations of this measure will give slight encouragement to the manufacture of gas meters here, but I think it is better to have a specific provision that meters stamped under this Act and passed for use here should be produced here, and I would like if the Minister would consider an amendment to the Bill to that effect.

I had an opportunity of listening only to the tail end of Deputy Anthony's speech. I know something about the operations of gas concerns in Dublin and I can say that it is their wish to provide as much work as possible here and to obtain local meters if they are economically made. I assume that we will have an opportunity later of discussing the Bill clause by clause, and at this stage I will simply indicate that there is an objection to Clause 5, which deals with the stamping of meters.

In my opinion the question as to whether meters are made in Ireland or not does not come within the scope of the Bill.

It is not in it now but it should be.

We would all be anxious to see that meters used in Ireland are made here. I would like to get a guarantee that this Bill which gives the Minister powers to inspect meters will not be allowed simply to rest there. In provincial towns we believe that we have suffered by the lack of inspection, not alone through the measurement of the gas consumed but also through the quality of the gas provided. There is no gas-testing station in provincial towns as there is in Dublin where the quality of the gas as well as the meters can be tested. I believe that this Bill will get support all over the country and I hope that the powers given to the Minister will be used and that there will be some system of periodical inspection, not only of the meters but of the gas to see that the consumers are getting what they are paying for. In Dublin you are all right, but in provincial towns there is a feeling—it was most pronounced during the war—that there is a very bad quality of gas provided. Now that we are in normal times I hope, as I have said, that the powers given to the Minister will be used. I have pointed out that, in my opinion, this Bill does not deal with the question of gas meters being made here. We are all agreed that they should be, but the Bill is concerned only with seeing that consumers get proper measure and are adequately safeguarded.

I desired to call attention to the quality of gas provided in the country, but that point has just been dealt with by Deputy de Loughrey.

I, like Deputy Lemass, Deputy Anthony and other speakers, welcome this Bill, but I am sorry that the Minister has not, apparently, examined the question more fully. A great many things remain to be done so far as gas undertakings in this country are concerned. It is certainly very desirable that inspectors should be appointed by various local authorities, by the Minister, or whoever is going to appoint them, to see that meters installed in people's houses are functioning properly. Another question of some importance to the country at present is that of the supply of gas through slot meters. It is only the very poor who have slot meters installed, and we find that all over the State a person who gets gas through the medium of a slot meter has to pay anything from sevenpence to a shilling —it varies in different parts of the country—per thousand cubic feet more than is charged to a person with an ordinary meter. I think the Minister ought to pay attention to that aspect of the situation. I would ask him to try to get statistics from various parts of the country, and to amend this Bill to enable him to deal with the conditions in so far as that aspect of the situation is concerned. Like Deputy de Loughrey, I am of opinion that something should be done to test the quality of the gas supplied all over the country. In a great many gas works to-day, the gas is not purified. The gas is being sent out through pipes to the houses, and it is neither cleaned nor purified. That is a very undesirable state of affairs. Everybody knows that where there are not proper purifiers in gas works, a very bad quality of gas is supplied, and it is injurious to people's health. In every gas undertaking in which there are no "scrubbers" a very dirty kind of gas is sent out through the pipes. It is most injurious to health, and it corrodes the pipes in people's houses, which is a great danger to everybody on the premises.

Deputy Anthony referred to the difference between a wet and a dry meter. I would say that the Minister ought to prohibit the use of wet meters altogether, because I have no hesitation in saying that a wet meter is a very dangerous thing in a house. I hope that before very long dry meters only will be used in every house in the country. Anybody who has any great knowledge of gas knows how dangerous a wet meter is in a house if it is not attended to properly, and consumers of gas do not know how to treat wet meters properly. I hope that they will disappear altogether in the very near future. I would like the Minister to examine the question of the different charges to the poorer consumers of slot meters as distinct from people who have the ordinary quarterly meter. I hope that those matters will be examined from the point of view I have expressed.

I believe that the complaints made by various Deputies in this matter are universal all over Ireland. Those who have been brought into contact with gas companies, more or less privately-owned, have a number of grievances, but of course the time will come later when we can express them. I believe that there should be proper testing stations of some description in every urban district so as to ensure that a proper quality of gas is supplied. I believe that the regulation of the price of gas is necessary and that the price should go hand-in-hand with the price of coal. If you allow a certain amount for expenditure in the production of gas and a fair profit to the companies, I believe it would meet the situation in that respect. In regard to meters, I find that, in the urban districts especially, gas companies, for the last fifteen or sixteen years during which I have been connected with public life, have never looked after the meters supplying gas to the urban councils. I think it is not a bit too soon to bring a Bill of this character into force, not alone to regulate prices, but to see that a proper quality of gas is supplied. Those who will be charged with administering the provisions of the Bill will, I am sure, be men of ability and will know their business. It is necessary, where gas companies are privately owned, that there should be inspection.

Some of the points that were made on this Bill could be very definitely answered by what Deputy de Loughrey said. This is a Bill "to make further and better provision in relation to the stamping of gas meters, to enable the Sale of Gas Act, 1859, to be brought into force in the county boroughs in which the said Act is not now in force, and to amend the Alliance and Dublin Gas Act, 1874, and the Gas Regulation Act, 1920." It is purely, as I said before, a Bill to make provision with regard to the stamping of meters and the sale of gas. Anything else is a trade matter. If it were proposed to bring in certain regulations in regard to enforcing the use in this country of meters, made in this country, it would not be done in this Bill. It would not form part of the Bill. It would be entirely a different matter. I doubt even if the draftsman could be got to draft a Bill which would contain this type of regulation—a regulation enforcing the use of meters made in this country. The two things are entirely apart and the considerations that would operate to make a regulation enforcing the use of meters made in Saorstát Eireann are entirely different from the considerations that would operate in regard to the stamping of meters and in regard to the sale of gas in a particular town. In regard to Deputy Anthony's point, there is a definition of gas somewhere. I would not like to say in what particular Act it is defined, but I can get the Deputy reassured on that point before we meet again. The extension of time to which I refer is in fact given in Section 5, sub-section (2). On that point representations have been made to me, the full effect of which I have had not time to consider. Any amendment with regard to the enlargement of that time-period will be brought forward in due course if, for instance, I consider it is necessary, from my point of view, that it should be done. It is open to Deputies to bring forward a similar amendment to any other clause for the enlargement of the time-period.

The Deputy touched on an important point with regard to the re-verification of meters and, now that it is raised, it is a matter to which more consideration can be given. It was previously under consideration and, in fact, it appeared in an earlier draft of this Bill but was taken out because the whole construction of the measure was thrown into another form which, it was thought, rendered unnecessary any provision with regard to re-verification. But it may seem essential and it would be a better security to the public if there were some provision with regard to re-verification after a certain period. One finds that ordinarily companies themselves will insist on re-verification after a certain period, but it might be as well to insist on re-verification at definite periods. The average period would be about seven or eight years and one could insist on a maximum of that sort being legally enforced.

With regard to what two Deputies have touched upon, the question of wet and dry meters, I had a correspondent who wrote at great length on the question of wet meters. I had enquiries made and I find the situation is very nearly approaching what Deputy Corish would like to see established. That is to say, the wet meter is definitely going out of use. Out of 20,400 meters tested last year only 70 were wet meters. The wet meter is almost entirely disappearing. It is disappearing for a different reason from that put forward by Deputy Anthony. Deputy Anthony thought that the wet meter if left alone for a certain period told against the seller.

The consumer. I said the wet meter operated against the consumer when it went out of order.

Not when it went out of order, but it could be so manipulated by raising the level in a particular way that it definitely told against the consumer. If it was not attended to by the company it went in favour of the consumer, so that the suspicion is rather the other way to that in which the Deputy put it. However, it is a small matter because the wet meter is going out of use. There is not much use in bothering about that and, at any rate, for the future there will be inspection. If we attend to the question of re-verification then there will be a much better inspection than ever before. A Deputy then asked about inspectors. There is a provision under the 1920 Act setting out that the Board of Trade shall provide for the holding of examinations for the purpose of ascertaining whether applicants for the post of inspector possess sufficient practical knowledge for the proper performance of the duties, and for the granting of certificates to people who satisfactorily passed the examination. The Board of Trade is now substituted by the Department of Industry and Commerce and there is provision for examining the qualifications of those who wish to be tested for the post of inspector. That administrative duty being imposed on the Department, attention can always be called to any failure by the ordinary method of question and answer in the Dáil.

I think it was Deputy Corish raised the point with regard to slot meter consumers. On that point there is no legislation directly dealing with the matter, but under the Gas Charges Order there is power to regulate the charges under the slot system. In all cases but one that matter has been attended to and has been regulated On the question of the quality of gas and the price of gas, I would like to have it recognised what the full force of this Bill is. Let us take Section 3. There we find certain expressions occurring in an earlier Act, and it is set out that Section 18 of the Act of 1920 is amended by the deletion of the words "The expression ‘gas undertakers' or ‘undertakers' means any local authority, company, body or person authorised to supply gas by any Act of Parliament or any order having the force of an Act of Parliament" now contained therein and the insertion in lieu of the words so deleted of the words "The expression ‘gas undertakers' or ‘undertakers' means any local authority, company, body or person engaged in the business of supplying gas." The real scope of the Bill is shown by the extension indicated in that phrase, and it is set out that hereafter any body, company, local authority or person supplying gas is going to be brought under the terms of the old Act, and it will be necessary for the future to have it absolutely and definitely laid down that any meter sold for the purpose of supplying gas to consumers will have to be verified, tested and stamped.

What does the word "undertaker" convey in this particular instance? Is it a gas undertaker only, or a lighting undertaker?

I will have to read that question in relation to the 1920 Act when that portion is amended. I do not know what the Deputy's point is.

The Minister is aware that at the present moment a section of his Department is dealing with the Shannon supply of electricity, and they are negotiating with certain local authorities in connection with the taking over of Shannon lighting. If a gas consumers' company is to be looked upon as an undertaker in a certain area, it might clash with what might be the Minister's and the local authority's desire in regard to the undertaker in that area if you constitute them in this Bill the undertaker.

I do not know exactly where the conflict arises, or is likely to arise.

The Minister knows that other legislation led to conflict.

It applies to a particular type of undertaker. It is specially limited.

That is what I want to know. Does this limit the undertaker mentioned here to the supply of lighting by gas?

I am satisfied if it does.

The old Act said that an undertaker, a gas undertaker or any undertaker, means anybody authorised to supply gas. Now, instead of people authorised, it substitutes the local authority, company, or body of persons engaged in the business of supplying gas. That is very definitely limited, and that will bring about a widening of the whole scope of the thing by that phrase. It brings everybody supplying gas in future under control. There is definite regulation as regards the verification and stamping. Deputies anxious as to the quality of the gas supplied, and who would like to see some improvement, would, if they read Sections 1 and 2 of the 1920 Act, which talks of the composition and pressure of the gas supplied and what is laid down there with regard to the composition of gas, feel more satisfied. Also for the future there will be compulsion with regard to the testing of meters, and there is going to be a provision facilitating people who apply to have their charges regulated on a particular basis.

As regards the composition of gas, if Deputies will refer to Section 9 and collate it with Section 3, they will find their objections answered. The two sections will enable a certain amount to be done with regard to the regulation of prices. It is not taken over completely, and one cannot say that prices are to be definitely regulated by any definite Department, but a certain amount is done by the reaction of Section 3 on Section 9.

Whose property are these meters under the Bill? Are they the property of the company, or undertaker, or may they be the property of the consumer?

They are ordinarily the property of the undertaker.

They have always been the property of the undertaker.

That is a point we might have information on at a later stage.

Question agreed to. Bill read a Second Time. Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 16th May.

Top
Share