Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 18 May 1928

Vol. 23 No. 15

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. VOTE 40—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND PUBLIC HEALTH (RESUMED).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That a sum not exceeding £269,556 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health including Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, Grants to Local Authorities, and Sundry Grants in Aid, and the Expenses of the Office of the Inspector of Lunatic Asylums.

Mr. CORRY

When the House adjourned last night I was dealing with the definite case of Richard Philpott and the action of the Local Government Department in that matter. As I pointed out last night, this is one of the most odious cases that has occurred in the public life of any community. This is a case where a competitive examination was held by the county council, and an individual came down and stood for that examination without any intention of filling the position. He came first in the examination, took over the position, was sanctioned by the Local Government Department, and then handed over the position to his brother who came sixth in the examination. The matter was then exposed and this individual was compelled to resign, and the next thing that happened was that his brother, who came sixth in the examination was appointed, the authorities ignoring altogether those who came second, third, fourth and fifth. Those boys who, at any rate, came second and third are absolutely, if I may use the term, starving. They are hungry and they have no employment, even though they were educated to that pitch that they were able to come second and third in the competitive examination. The young men who came second, third, fourth and fifth were completely ignored.

The sanction of the appointment of the man who came sixth is going to have a very bad effect on competitive examinations in future. Individuals will come to the conclusion that there is no use standing for competitive examinations if this sort of thing is going to be camouflaged by a party who go before the electors claiming to stand for efficiency, economy and no jobbery and who come afterwards and stage this kind of job over the heads of the Cork County Council. That kind of thing will take us nowhere, and only this state of affairs was found out in time we would have found ourselves down there in a very serious position. Richard Philpott was a rate-collector for three or four months without the knowledge of the Cork County Council or anybody else. During that period the council had no insurance bond in connection with that individual and no insurance company was liable. I do not know where we will find ourselves if that sort of thing is allowed to continue. The Local Government Department dissolved corporations and local authorities for far less corrupt practices than in the case of that individual whom they sanctioned. I consider the sanction of that individual should mean the appointment of a Commissioner to take over the blooming Department. I see no other way out of it. That state of affairs is going to bring odium on any public body. It is a state of affairs that we, at any rate in Cork, do not stand for, and we will try to keep public life in Cork County as pure as we can. There is no use in trying to do the sort of thing that has been done.

General MULCAHY

I understood that the Deputy was speaking about the delinquencies of the Cork County Council.

Mr. CORRY

I am speaking about the delinquencies of the Department that sanctioned this man.

General MULCAHY

Does the Deputy suggest that the Department was responsible for a state of affairs in which a person who he alleges was not entitled to collect rates was actually collecting them for four months without the knowledge of the county council?

Mr. CORRY

Yes.

General MULCAHY

I would like to know on what basis the Deputy makes that claim?

Mr. CORRY

I make it on the fact that Denis Philpott, who came first in the examination, collected very little rates, if he collected any at all. He might have started the collection, but that is all he did, and then he came back to his job in Dublin as an instructor under the Department of Agriculture.

General MULCAHY

The suggestion made here is that a certain person took first place in an examination and that he was appointed, but that instead of setting about his duties and collecting the rates, his brother set about the collection of them, and that the Cork County Council found that out after four months. The Deputy blames the Department for that state of affairs.

Mr. CORRY

I do not blame the Department for that state of affairs.

General MULCAHY

I understood the Deputy did.

Mr. CORRY

I blame the Department for a state of affairs in which, with the full knowledge of these facts, they actually sanctioned Richard Philpott in this appointment. It is for that I blame the Department, and I say it is not a state of affairs that should be expected from a Department with any sense of its responsibility. There is no use in holding competitive examinations if that state of affairs is to continue. I made a statement here last evening which was contradicted by a member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. That statement was that the Secretary of the Cork County Council received as a gross salary yearly a sum of £2,700 or £2,800 odd. That statement was contradicted by a member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, who is also a member of the Cork County Council. I would like to get a definite statement from the Minister for Local Government and Public Health as to what the salary of the Secretary to the Cork County Council is, so that the people of Cork would be clear on the matter. Two years ago there was an agreement reached between the Cork County Council and this Secretary, who is drawing a higher salary than the President of the Executive Council. That agreement was sent up here to the Department. It contained, together with the agreement, an arrangement as to pension which, in my opinion, and in the opinion of other members of the county council, was not justified. That agreement has since been dilly-dallying between the Ministry of Local Government and Public Health and the Cork County Council. I understand that up to the present, at any rate— and we are now within one month of the election—the Secretary of the County Council has succeeded in drawing the full amount of about £2,800 from the County Council. I would like the Minister to reply on this matter and let us know definitely what the facts are.

I notice that this Department is paying £22,869 in war bonus to its officials. The Cork County Council on several occasions endeavoured to abolish the bonus for their own officials, and on each occasion they have been turned down by the Department. That war bonus means that £3,000 of the money of the ratepayers of Cork is paid in war bonus. That money is collected from the ratepayers of Cork, though the representatives of the ratepayers of Cork and the Cork County Council have, on several occasions, voted against paying a war bonus to its officials. I would now ask that the wishes of the Cork ratepayers and the Cork County Council, who are paying this money to their officials, should be considered. I consider that it is unjustifiable, especially in view of the fact that the ratepayers are not able to meet their obligations and are certainly not able to meet the payment of the enormously high rates placed upon them. Under these circumstances we say that this £3,000 should not be paid in war bonus. We consider that this is unjust and absolutely uncalled for. In that respect, too, I notice that every advertisement appearing at present from these public bodies and from the Department contains, in addition to the salary, a war bonus. I thought that the war was over long ago—all the wars.

There was another matter alluded to here last evening by another Deputy from East Cork, and that was that a certain amount of money which was given as a grant was turned into relief of rates by the Cork County Council. I wish here definitely to deny that statement, and if I am wrong I hope the Minister for Local Government and Public Health will correct me. I definitely deny that this money was meant as a grant. It was money that was given as a refund of moneys expended by the county council on roads under a grant.

Mr. DALY

It was I made that statement. This £29,000 went down as a refund for money spent on the roads. I hold that that £29,000 was a bonus and should be spent on the roads. It was not spent on the roads.

Mr. CORRY

I am glad to hear Deputy Daly saying that, because I want to hear from the Minister, who was responsible for sending down this money, whether it was a refund or a bonus.

General MULCAHY

There has been given to road authorities from the Road Fund last year and this year a maintenance grant. The amount is to be applied to the payment of 50 per cent. of the actual outlay on main roads and 30 per cent. of the actual outlay on trunk roads. A sum of £29,565 was granted to the Cork County Council. Of that money £23,565 is being applied to the relief of rates, as is proper, and £6,000 is being applied to road improvement.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

took the Chair.

Mr. CORRY

It was understood by the county council and stated there that this money was given for employment on account of moneys already expended by the council on roads, a proportion of which, they understood, was to be refunded to them. This money was given as a refund, not exactly for expenditure on roads, but to be employed in whatever manner the council liked. If the council were wrong in applying this money for the relief of rates instead of expending it on roads, why did the Department not take notice of it and correct the council? The fact that the Department did not take action proves that my statement is correct. As regards workmen's wages in Cork, we were told last night that there was very little use in looking for increased wages for workers while we are taking this money from the workers. The Deputy who spoke is a member of a Government which lays down that a workman should not get more than 29/- a week in wages. I would point out that the men who are taking these contracts are making enormous and outrageous profits out of them, and I can prove my words. A contractor in Cork, who had taken one of these contracts at 3/- per square yard, is paying a wage of 9d. per hour, and a contractor in Fermoy, who had taken a similar contract at 4/- per square yard, was only, up to last Tuesday, paying a wage of 8¼d. He had a clear profit of 1/- per square yard.

Mr. DALY

On a point of order: The wages in Fermoy were regulated at 32/- a week, not 29/-.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

Regulated by whom?

Mr. DALY

Regulated by the mutual consent of the contractors, the county surveyor and the labourers.

Mr. CORRY

I am very glad to hear that. The wages allowed by the Department for road work in the urban area is 35/- a week, and in the rural area 29/- a week. Deputy Daly apparently made an agreement with the men that the wages would be 32/6 all through, and the contractor then made them work a 54 hours week for the 32/6. I am glad to be able to inform Deputy Daly that these men are now getting 39/8.

Mr. DALY

Wait and see.

Mr. CORRY

Whilst Deputy Daly and I do not agree on this question, there is a matter on which we do agree. I would re-echo Deputy Daly's demand for an increased number of labourers' cottages. The farmers are anxious that they should have houses for labourers, that they should have labourers living near them whom they could employ, and that they should have houses for them. But I do not quite agree with Deputy Daly's suggestion that the labourers should not be the owners of these houses.

Mr. DALY

I did not say that at all. I have been listening to Deputy Corry for the last half-hour. He wants to abolish the Cork County Council, and he declared himself on that months ago.

Mr. FAHY

On a point of order: Is this a private dispute between the Cork Deputies, or are we on Local Government?

General MULCAHY

It is a meeting of the Cork County Council.

Mr. CORRY

I have no notion of abolishing the Cork County Council. I want to abolish the Farmers' Party in it, and I have always declared myself in favour of that. It is abolished here, and it should be abolished all round.

Mr. DALY

You should abolish all.

Mr. CORRY

I cannot abolish you.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

Deputy Corry should talk about the Estimate.

Mr. CORRY

We had an example of this extreme centralisation that I spoke of last night in another direction. We had an example of it in connection with boards of health and boards of assistance, where one individual is put in charge of two or three departments which he is absolutely unable to manage efficiently. One individual cannot manage six rural districts rolled into one and formed into a board of health, and the same six rural districts rolled into one and formed into a board of assistance. One secretary cannot manage all these. As regards commissioners, a commissioner is an official drawing a salary, and I hold that it is unjust to the ratepapers to have in control an official drawing a salary who is naturally interested in raising the salaries of other officials. It is unjust to the ratepayers, who have to pay the piper, to have such an individual in charge of the rates. I am speaking from experience of the actions of commissioners. Commissioners are supposed to be super-men, but they are not. I wish definitely to call the attention of the Minister to the anomaly of having the Secretary of the Local Government Department drawing £1,200, and the secretary of a county council drawing about £2,800.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

I think that the Minister for Local Government is to be congratulated on this Estimate. When one looks down the figures and sees the decreases tabulated, I think it ought to be a matter for sincere congratulation to the Minister. There is a decrease in salaries of £5,488, in travelling allowances of £1,350, in salaries for auditors £224, and in travelling expenses for auditors £400, and we have a net decrease in the total vote of £82,247, while the efficiency of the Department is being fully maintained. When one examines an Estimate of this kind to-day, it would be well to realise that we are in a totally different position now from what we were in 1919, as examined by Deputy Holt. I venture to suggest that such criticisms as Deputy Holt made on the Estimate, drawing a comparison between the 1919 and the 1928 figures, are perfectly valueless.

General MULCAHY

They were wrong in any case.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

They were perfectly valueless as well as being wrong. We had for 1927-28 a figure of £502,000 for housing, and for 1928-29 we have £419,000. Why did Deputy Holt not take these figures into consideration when he was drawing his comparison?

Mr. BRISCOE

On a point of information, could Deputy Byrne tell us where the figure of £502,000 for housing is shown in any Estimate?

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

I have taken it out of the book. If Deputy Briscoe reads the book he will find it.

Mr. BRISCOE

I have examined the Estimate, and I have found that that figure of £502,000 refers to the total Estimate last year.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

I am not denying that.

Mr. BRISCOE

It does not refer to housing.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

It all refers to housing.

Mr. BRISCOE

The whole Local Government Vote for last year, not the vote for housing, amounted to £502,000.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

I found a vote of £502,000 for housing.

Mr. BRISCOE

Would the Deputy mind telling us where it is?

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

I beg to correct myself. I find that the figure for grants for housing was £251,000 last year, and it is £175,095 this year. The Deputy is perfectly correct, but it is only a matter of degree.

Mr. BRISCOE

It is a matter of over a quarter of a million pounds.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

It is, but it is a matter of degree. We have heard a comparison drawn that left entirely out of consideration a sum of £250,000, a sum of £15,000, and a sum of £2,000, so that I venture to suggest that the contention that I have made is still perfectly correct, and that no analogy exists for the comparison drawn by Deputy Holt between the year 1919 and the circumstances existing to-day.

I notice with regret the housing grants are exhausted. I ventured some time ago to appeal to the Minister for Local Government for the building of dwellings for workmen whose means to pay rentals were small. I come from the North City of Dublin and know it is a crying want to which no attention has been paid, even since the present scheme of housing has been undertaken by the Minister. In that area large numbers of houses have been built, but the rentals of those houses run roughly from anything ranging from 16/- to a £1 a week. How is a man earning 50/- a week or thereabouts to pay from 16/- to 20/- a week? I ventured some months ago to ask the Minister to earmark at least some portion of the money available for housing grants for the building of self-contained dwellings of some kind or another for the ordinary workman. I drew the attention of the Minister to the fact that in most of the large cities across the water in Glasgow, London and Leeds they had self-contained flats built at rentals averaging from 7/6 to 10/6 per week. I realise the difficulties of the Minister. I realise that building at present is practically uneconomic, but I venture to suggest to the Minister that certain schemes of building which on the face may appear to be non-economic may, upon closer examination, be found to be a very good investment for this Department. Nobody in this House will deny the amount of sickness that arises from the present conditions of the housing of the workers in the north and south city slums in Dublin. I suggest, with all respect, that something should be done for these unfortunate people in the city of Dublin as has been done in other cities. Those people are certainly deserving of the help of a Department like that of Local Government.

There is one other matter to which I would like to refer very briefly, that is the loss of rates from vacant business premises in the city of Dublin. I believe that the loss arising from those would give relief generally to the ratepayers of something like 2d. in the £. To my own knowledge, some of those houses have been idle for periods ranging from three to four years. I think it is unnecessary to labour the fact that those particular business premises are really required and can be filled provided they are let to traders in the city at a reasonable economic rent. I would ask the Minister to endeavour to frame something, by way of future legislation or policy, that would enable these business premises to be let at a reasonable rent and not to allow them to be standing there as empty mausoleums, of no benefit to the community, and of very little benefit to the owner.

I also must congratulate the Minister upon the way the question of roads has been treated, and I see with pleasure that though this Estimate, as I have already stated, shows a net decrease of £82,000, that £1,958,970 is estimated to be spent on the roads. There is only one other matter to which I would appeal to the Minister, and upon which I have already appealed, and that is the question of transport over certain roads. I appealed in a particular instance to the Minister before with regard to a certain avenue in Fairview, and have asked the Minister to prohibit the running of bus traffic along that particular avenue for the reason that that traffic was doing the greatest possible amount of injury to the houses there, and that the road upon which the traffic was passing was entirely unsuitable to the traffic. In the greater number of instances the inhabitants living in that particular avenue owned their own houses, and the loss and damage to property fell upon the actual owners themselves, humble individuals who had, by sheer economy, succeeded in obtaining the ownership of their own houses. We have appealed to the Commissioners, and that appeal has been turned down. We have again appealed to the Minister for Local Government, and I regret to say that appeal still remains turned down. At one time when we first approached the Commissioners on this subject we were told that the damage was due to the heavy traffic, on account of building operations in that particular area. A notice was posted up by the Commissioners at the end of the road prohibiting that heavy traffic. A promise was given that this traffic would be entirely discontinued when building operations ceased. At one time, as the Minister is aware, this avenue was practically a cul-de-sac, upon which there was only one-way traffic. A road has been built for a number of years, and is entirely unsuitable for this bus traffic. The mode in which the Commissioners have carried out their promise to the inhabitants of Windsor Avenue is to remove the sign which prohibited heavy traffic passing along that avenue. Now to add to their troubles or to increase them very considerably they are making it a new bus route. The Minister has been good enough to inform me that if application is made to him by responsible authorities, this bus route will be discontinued, but if, as may reasonably happen, the Commissioners are wrong in their findings, how is this evil to be redressed as far as the inhabitants in this particular avenue are concerned?

I think the whole question of existing law upon this problem of road transport is in a most chaotic and unsatisfactory condition. The Commissioners have performed a test in this case that I, as an ordinary layman, consider entirely valueless. People skilled in those matters and skilled in such tests have also corroborated me in my opinion by stating they were entirely valueless. I have examined these houses personally. I can speak for the amount of damage done, and can speak for the continuation of the damage at present. When the question of vibration came to be examined I, with an expert, went down to that avenue and the vibration one could feel by the mere passing of a loaded coal dray was of a significant kind and character. I am in a position to submit for the consideration of the Minister, if he wishes, the damage done to this particular property, and the damage that continues to be done by the passage of this new bus traffic along that particular road. I do not wish to say one word against the administration of the Commissioners, but it has been said here by some of the Deputies that the Commissioners are supermen. I submit they are ordinary individuals like ourselves, liable to errors of judgment, and I submit a serious error of judgment has been made in this particular instance. I believe that some temporary alleviation of the traffic has been made at present, but what I would ask the Minister to say in his reply is, that that traffic will be discontinued, and that, under the Roads Act of 1920, he will give us the benefit which exists there of the power vested in him, by which he can prohibit and restrict such traffic along an unsuitable road.

Mr. DAVIN

Is the Deputy overlooking the speech that he made here on Wednesday evening on another aspect of the situation?

Mr. BYRNE

I am afraid I am not agile enough to follow the reference of Deputy Davin. I am so extremely interested in this particular instance, that I am sure he will forgive me for not following him. When replying, I hope the Minister will be in a position to say, if this bus traffic is to be continued along this road, that he will give the inhabitaants of this avenue the right under the Act of 1920, to which they are justly entitled.

Mr. LEMASS

As the Minister and Deputies are aware the periodical elections for membership of local government bodies will take place next month. I refer to it now, because I think it is very likely that the result of these elections will bring to the forefront problems in connection with local government which have not heretofore received the attention that they should have received. I think it will be generally admitted that the foundation of local government in this country rests upon the ability and honesty of purpose of the members of local boards. If we cannot secure the right type of public representatives to look after the local affairs of the country, then all the headquarters machinery which has been established for that purpose will be rendered useless. If, therefore, we find that there is in the situation anything which makes it practically impossible to have the right type of member elected on these bodies we must reconsider the situation as a whole. This subject has perhaps not been adequately considered before, because it did not arise in an acute form. It will only arise in an acute form when the elections to these bodies are taking place.

As a result of the abolition of the rural district councils there is now thrown on the county councils an amount of work far in excess of what previous councils had to perform. Membership of a county council involves absence from a member's business or occupation to an extent not heretofore experienced. Attendance at the council meetings and at committee meetings, as well as the time occupied in doing the work of the council, frequently takes a man from his home and his business for seven, eight or nine days in the month. The members of these councils are not of course granted any allowance for that time, and, as was pointed out here, the allowance for travelling expenses is in many cases inadequate. I do not propose to deal now with the question whether or not a change in that system should be initiated, but we have to face the fact that the effect of the new conditions is that the very type of individual who, in the best interests of the country, should be members of these boards are most reluctant to go forward as candidates for election. An individual who has devoted his time and his attention to his business, and who has made a success of it, is the type on whom we would like to see the administration of affairs thrown. But that type is the very type that will not now consent to go forward. The policy of the Government in taking from the councils a large part of the discretion which was hitherto allowed them in matters concerning local appointments has also resulted in a similar situation. Many of these councils and boards are now in effect nothing more than bodies for registering decisions arrived at behind closed doors in the Department of Local Government in Dublin. We find general resentment throughout the whole country at that practice, general resentment at the dictation from Dublin which is taking place, with the result that individuals of upright character and of independence of thought will not submit themselves to what they consider to be the indignity involved in membership of these bodies, when, in any matter in which a suspicion might be cast on their honesty of purpose, that suspicion is cast, and the Ministry and the Local Government Department proceed to act as if they could not be trusted. That policy on the part of the Government has resulted, as I said, in men of upright character refusing to sit upon these boards.

General MULCAHY

I wonder would the Deputy help us by indicating what are the restrictions he has in mind.

Mr. LEMASS

The restrictions I have in mind were mentioned frequently in the course of the debate. They are the restrictions imposed in the matter of making appointments to local services, and there are also restrictions in the matter of ordering supplies. It is implied by inference under the Central Purchasing Act that local authorities have power to purchase supplies locally, if they can secure them as good and as cheaply as they can get them under the central purchasing scheme. But that is only by inference. One suggestion I would make to the Minister is to consider the advisibility of putting into that Act, so as to leave no room for doubt, power to local boards to make purchases locally, if they can be secured as cheaply and as good as the central purchasing board can supply them. The average individual who is not a member of a public board, but who takes an intelligent interest in this question, knows that these boards will not be satisfied while there is that interference on the part of the Department and of the Ministry.

General MULCAHY

Does the Deputy hold that men of honesty and men of ability are prevented from taking part in the work of local boards, simply because laws have been introduced regulating the manner of making appointments to the staffs of local bodies, or which prevent people buying supplies locally if they can be got more economically in another way?

Mr. LEMASS

I have not said that men of business ability or honesty of character are prevented from becoming members of public boards, but I say that the inducement given to such individuals to become members has been decidedly lessened, particularly by regulations concerning the making of appointments. The policy of the Ministry in this matter is a definite indication that they do not consider that representatives elected locally can be trusted to withstand the temptation to corruption, and things of that kind in the making of appointments.

General MULCAHY

I wonder do Deputies feel these things when they are not allowed to make appointments in the Civil Service, seeing that they set up special machinery for making such appointments?

Mr. LEMASS

We have undoubtedly set up special machinery, and it was this House that did that in its discretion, but the members of local bodies were given no discretion in the matter. The Ministry decided that. If the consent of local bodies was asked for that system, and if they agreed to that system, no one would have any complaint, but that consent was not asked nor secured, and I think it will be admitted that the majority are opposed to the scheme. That matter will be debated more adequately in the near future in the Amending Bill which this Party is introducing. The only matter that I want to refer to now is the fact that the general policy of the Ministry, in connection with local government, has resulted, as I said, in a decided lessening of the inducements offered to the right type of candidate to accept election to these bodies.

On top of all that, we have at present a dishonest and misleading campaign being conducted by the daily Press and by some Deputies in this House in support of what they call "no politics on local bodies." The Minister by his silence has encouraged that campaign. He could stop it, of course, immediately if he wished, by merely publishing a definition of "politics." It is not contended, I think, that any of the big national issues on which the main Parties of the country are divided should be debated at local boards to the exclusion of all other matters, but behind this campaign of "no politics on local boards" we find not a desire to exclude politics but a desire to exclude nationalism, and in particular to exclude Republicanism, if it is not in actual fact a desire to exclude men of principle. Personally, I am convinced that the big political parties, Cumann na nGaedheal no less than Fianna Fáil and Labour, are in a position to induce men of the right character to stand, even against their own wishes and interests, as candidates because of their attachment to general national principles. If the outlook concerning these matters was changed and if it was realised that principles have as much a part in the local government of the country as they have in the national Government, we believe that better local government bodies would be secured in consequence. If that other campaign gains fruit and if the Ministry sanctions it, then every avenue to the local government bodies will be closed except the avenue which is the hope of self seekers, gombeen men and those who hope to make the local bodies a stepping stone to achieve their own purposes.

General MULCAHY

By giving them the power to make appointments and to give orders locally.

Mr. LEMASS

There is another matter which concerns this issue. The Minister for Finance on behalf of the Minister for Local Government replying to a question put to him on Wednesday last stated that the Courts had decided that the holders of premiums for bulls from county committees of agriculture are not eligible to be members of county councils. Whether that in theory or in fact be the case is a debatable matter but it has resulted in fact in the exclusion of the very type of member whom it should be in the general national interest to secure as members of these bodies. I would like the Minister to consider whether it was the intention of the original Act that that type of person should be excluded and if the decision of the Courts in that case, was anticipated when the Act was being put through.

Before concluding there is another matter to which I wish to refer. I want the Minister to state definitely if between the last day on which the matter was discussed and now, any steps have been taken to prepare the Bill which is to give legislative effect to the report of the Greater Dublin Commission. The term during which the Commissioners may hold office expires next March, and if a Bill to establish a new system of local government for Dublin is to be introduced and passed here in time to allow elections to take place before March next, there is room for very little delay. I would like the Minister to inform us when the Bill will be introduced. From the statement which we have had as to the activities of the Commissioners, particularly from Deputy Holt, we can find some justification for the apprehension that is growing in the minds of the citizens of Dublin concerning the manner in which their affairs are being conducted by the Commissioners here. I was astonished to hear Deputy J.J. Byrne go so far in desertion of his Cumann na nGaedheal principles as to admit that the Commissioners are not supermen, but ordinary individuals who can make mistakes. There are, however, more important matters than the small matters to which he drew attention. I would like to ask the Minister if it is not a fact that the Commissioners have failed to print and publish the abstract of the annual accounts for Dublin Union, and if they are not bound by statute to print and publish these accounts. If that is so, what is the reason for the secrecy in this matter? I would like him to state why the annual accounts of the Dublin Union are being withheld from publication.

It is generally known that members on this side of the House hold strong views concerning the suppression of the democratic rights of the people by the appointment of Commissioners. We are anxious that that suppression should be terminated as quickly as possible, and that in Dublin, the capital of the country, the control of local affairs should be given once again without delay to the citizens of the capital. I hope the Minister will be able to assure us that the Bill based on the report published in 1926 is, at least, being prepared, and that it will be introduced into this House in the near future. I would also be glad if the Minister would inform us whether the Government have in contemplation any revision of the whole system of local government in this country. I think it is likely that the continuance of the present policy will involve such re-organisation of the local government system. Whether or not that re-organisation would be necessary if another policy were in operation I cannot say, but we cannot possibly face the likelihood that the local government system may break down, or may get into the hands of useless and worthless men in consequence of the Government's policy. If the Government are alive to what the consequences of that policy must be, they must realise the need for reconsidering their attitude towards the existing system.

Mr. REYNOLDS

I would like to bring a few points to the notice of the Minister before he concludes the debate. One of these is in reference to sanitation in areas in congested districts. There is practically no sanitation in small towns, and there are hardly any sewerage systems either. In some cases outbreaks of disease have occurred owing to lack of sanitation. It is a very difficult problem for the people of the congested districts. The amount of money necessary to finance a sewerage scheme in small towns would have to be raised in the local area, and everybody knows at the present time that it is very difficult to raise any large sums of money in this way.

I think if the Local Government Department was prepared to give a further grant of, say, fifty per cent. in such cases that it would be very use- ful. I would not say that they should be expected to do it in all cases, but I think that in the congested districts areas the people are entitled to some consideration. We have been told that the local authorities should undertake the work of carrying out sewerage schemes. In many cases, the cost would be too much for them, especially in the congested districts areas. As regards housing, some Deputies seem to think that the present housing schemes were altogether a failure. I do not agree with that. In the part of the country that I come from a number of houses have been built under the housing schemes, and they seem to me to be very satisfactory. That is one of the best schemes the Local Government Department is responsible for. An ambitious and industrious farmer who feels that he would be able to build a house for himself is offered approximately a hundred pounds as free money to enable him to do so. I think that was a great chance for the people, and many availed of it. They might not have all the money at the time they needed it, but they raised the balance by some means or other. It was a great chance for them to be able to build a good house for themselves. But on the other hand, there are many people living in these congested districts who are not in a position to build houses for themselves.

There are many people living in, say, two-roomed, thatched dwellings, and if grants could be made available for them, as they used to be made under the old Congested Districts Board, they would be enabled to add an additional room or two to their houses. It would be very satisfactory indeed if that could be done. There are many ambitious, thrifty people who would like to improve their dwellings, and they would do so if they could get some help in the way of a grant. If these grants were given they could not only improve their dwellings but also their out-offices. That would help to improve housing conditions greatly. I think the Minister should give this special consideration.

With regard to the labourers' cottages, as far as I know they were built on loans that were obtained by the local authorities. Many of the occupiers at the present time believe that they have already repaid the amount of the loans obtained for the building of their cottages, and they are anxious that a scheme should be put into effect enabling them to buy out their cottages. I think if that could be done it would be wise. The scheme which provided a cottage and an acre of land for a labourer at a rent of 1/- a week was a great thing for the labourers of the country. I think that for schemes of that kind it would be a great thing if grants were made available, so that the labourers of the country would be able to get decent houses to live in. Labourers would not be able to pay the rents of the new houses which cost so much to build to-day. I hope the Minister will be able to do something with regard to having more money made available for the building of labourers' cottages.

In regard to the roads, and as to the Co. Leitrim getting a fair share of the grants, unfortunately the geographical position of the county excludes a large part of it from expenditure on the roads. The reason for that is that the trunk roads running through the county border either on Roscommon or Sligo, and it is the neighbouring counties that get most of the benefit from the expenditure on trunk roads in Co. Leitrim and not the county itself. Outside of the trunk roads, I would say that the other roads in County Leitrim are entitled to more grants if possible, and that the county is not treated fairly as regards the amount of money spent on roads generally.

With regard to appointments, I have had a good deal to do with public administration and would prefer that selection committees should deal with this matter of appointments, because it is a great source of annoyance to men in public life to have people running after them looking for their influence and their votes. I just wish to refer to the appointment of a rate collector in the County Leitrim, and hope the Minister will be able to do something in connection with it. The man who held the position was dismissed. His sister came along and paid up a sum of money that was in question. On her doing so the county council gave her a promise, I do not know whether they were justified in doing so or not, that as soon as the money was paid up they would appoint her as rate collector. The Minister for Local Government refused to give his sanction. The county council petitioned the Minister to reconsider his decision in the case. The position is that this lady borrowed from the bank the amount that was required to pay the county council. She certainly did her part, and I hope that the Minister will see his way to sanction her appointment so that she may be put in a position to be able to repay what she borrowed from the bank.

Mr. P. HOGAN (Clare)

I rise for the purpose of getting information on a few matters. There is a good deal of dissatisfaction in some places as to the way the road grant is divided. With regard to Clare, we would like to know the basis on which the grant is distributed. Looking over the list, one finds that some small counties get a much larger share of the road grant than counties with a much bigger area. For instance, the County Louth gets a much larger share of the grant than the County Clare, and no one would think of suggesting that there is a larger road-surfacing area in Louth than there is in Clare. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction over this. I would like if the Minister would give some indication as to the basis on which the grant is distributed. There is another matter I want to refer to. I have taken some trouble to look into it as carefully as I could, as well as to inspect the different materials supplied through the central purchasing arrangement. In one institution in the County Clare, of which I am a member of the committee, we find that English or foreign material is supplied to us. As regards spades, shovels, forks and agricultural implements supplied to the Clare Mental Hospital, the committee, when they made an investigation, found that not alone were these articles of foreign manufacture, but that they were not suitable for the work for which they were intended. These agricultural implements were of no use whatever for the work they were intended to do in these institutions, and more money had to be expended in order to make them suitable. That is a matter to which I think the Minister should give some consideration. I do not charge the Minister with being anxious to dump English or foreign manufactures into the country. I do not believe that, but the fact remains that local institutions have to incur extra expense in order to make these articles useful for the particular purpose for which they were intended. They come from Stourbridge, and from my geographical knowledge I do not think that is a place in Ireland. I also find in the purchasing scheme list Cassidy's whiskey. I cannot find any distiller of the name of Cassidy. Deputy Davin reminds me it is at Monasterevan. I am not an authority on whiskey, but I was informed that distillery has been out of commission for the last twenty years.

Mr. MOORE

The whiskey will remain a long time.

Mr. HOGAN

It must not be very good when no one bought it for the last twenty years.

Mr. LEMASS

The evil which men do lives after them.

Mr. MOORE

It is extremely good.

Mr. HOGAN

I hope Deputy Moore will give me the chance of proving it is extremely good. I am not satisfied with the way the Minister is dealing with the amount of money allocated for the roads. I have on other occasions referred to the fact, and I wish to emphasise it now, that the local ratepayers are expected to maintain practically a national service, that is to say, we have buses, motor cars and lorries from Dublin, Waterford and Cork running through County Clare, and we are expected to maintain the roads for this national service, so that it is being made a local charge. I hope the Minister will give consideration to this matter.

Mr. KENT

I wish to bring a few matters to the attention of the Local Government Department, and I hope they will receive consideration. The first has reference to the sanitary conditions of the schools, especially in the rural areas. There should be strict supervision over them. There is not a year that passes in which the majority of these schools have not to close for some time owing to outbreaks of measles, diphtheria, and other causes. I believe it is advisable that we should aim at having a healthy community. A sanitary inspector should frequently go round and examine the schools from a sanitary point of view. The majority of the children going to those schools come from the labouring class. I can say from my experience that during the winter months those children endure great hardships owing to weather conditions, and they have to go to school practically unclothed. I suggest to the Local Government Department that those children should be provided with a decent suit of clothes, and a substantial meal daily during the winter months, if not during the whole year round. A great deal has been said about the improvement of the roads. I agree that the trunk roads are much improved and are a credit. The work has been well done in regard to them and the money well spent, but what about the roads in other districts? The farmers are the principal contributors to the upkeep of these roads, but so far as these people are concerned they are very much neglected.

Recently there was a scheme in Fermoy for improving the town, and the Government gave a grant towards it. Unfortunately the principal street was left out of that scheme, which is a great drawback to the scheme. I ask the Minister for Local Government to consider the advisability of giving a further grant so that the principal street in Fermoy would be improved equally with the other streets. My friend, Deputy Daly, suggested yesterday that any time he came to Dublin and had a sound proposal to put before the Department he was never turned down. He said there was a way of getting at them. I suggest to the Minister for Local Government that he should advise Deputy Daly to keep that secret to himself, as, otherwise, if Deputies get into the know his office would probably be besieged and a perfect nuisance would be created for the staff and himself. It reminds me of the three-card trick. The three-card man comes along with his three cards and he invites you to find the winner, or King Richard. If we adopt that principle in this House it may be the means of turning us into a gambling institution. We will turn up King Richard often, and the Minister will pay on the winning card, and perhaps the Local Government Department will become bankrupt.

As regards the cottage scheme, I think these cottages were built close on 40 years ago, and half an acre was attached to them, and they were let at a small rental. I think it is time for the owners of these cottages to get them free of rents and rates. They have paid sufficiently for these cottages. We must remember that in the days of the land war these men stood loyally by the farmers through thick and thin. The least we can do now for them is to give them a grant of these cottages, with the land attached. There is a demand for a new scheme of cottages. I hope the Minister will consider the advisability of putting such a scheme into operation. At present it is rather difficult to get labourers of a suitable class to work on the farms. It was stated by a Deputy yesterday that a large number of these people from the country go into the cities of Cork and Dublin, and elsewhere, looking for employment which they do not find. There is no necessity for them to do that. If these young men and women want employment they would get plenty of work even at the reduced wage which the farmer can pay having regard to his present means. If they come to the cities looking for employment that is their own fault. With reference to water schemes: there is a scheme for my locality which seems to be held up for some reason that I do not know. About 80 people have to use the water from a polluted stream. I think it would be money well spent if that scheme was put into operation. I wish to impress on the Minister these few points, and I hope he will take them into consideration.

Mr. SHAW

This is a subject with which I am pretty well conversant, having been a member of public boards for a considerable time. Although that is so, it is not my intention to go into detail in the very important matters that come under this Vote, but there are a few items with which I would like to deal. We have heard a good deal about economy, and that is a very difficult subject. I intend to show that the expenditure of public money will in many cases result in great economy and in a saving to the ratepayers. In Westmeath a lady bequeathed a sum of £2,000 to be utilised for certain purposes. We decided that the best way we could spend the money would be to provide a first class x-ray apparatus. We spent £1,500 on its erection, and we know that by its work during twelve months we have benefited to the extent of at least half the money. Formerly we sent a large number of cases to be treated in Dublin hospitals; such cases are now practically all kept at home—85 per cent. of them anyway are now treated in the county hospital at Mullingar. Every hospital in the Saorstát should have a first class x-ray apparatus. It will be of great benefit to people who cannot afford to come to Dublin and will pay for itself in a very short time.

I hope that the scheme which is being considered in connection with the sale of labourers' cottages will materialise. The present position with regard to these cottages is most unsatisfactory. In Westmeath the ratepayers are losing something like £3,000 per year on them. A large number of occupants of these cottages are anxious to purchase and I hope the scheme will be speeded up.

Sewerage and sanitation are also very important matters. I believe that the expenditure of money on sewerage and sanitation will save the ratepayers a good deal in the end, because the condition of many towns and rural areas as regards sanitation and sewerage in my opinion is the cause of a great deal of illness, and, I am sorry to have to add, one particular disease, which I am afraid is on the increase in Westmeath—tuberculosis. Of course, poverty, bad housing and matters of that kind are also contributory causes. In Westmeath recently the county hospital was connected up with the sewerage scheme. We borrowed money at 5¼ per cent. from the bank. The Board of Works quotation was 5¾, so that we did better by dealing with the bank, and the cost to the ratepayers of that beneficial work will be very small.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

took the Chair.

Mr. SHAW

As one who has had a good deal to do with the Local Government Department, as Chairman of the Board of Health and a member of other boards, it is only right that I should pay a tribute to that Department for the manner in which they facilitate such boards in connection with matters brought before them in the right way. Many difficult and controversial matters have had to be settled between that Department and the board of health or county council, and when I accompany deputations to the Department's officials we are in almost every case able to settle our problems. We are received with sympathy and courtesy, and I certainly would like to pay a tribute to the Minister, and especially to the Secretary, Mr. McCarron, for going out of his way on every occasion to settle the difficult problems or differences which arose between the boards and his Department. Public boards that meet with such difficulties would do much better by laying the case before the Minister and his officials rather than by passing resolutions, which are really political and are really of no help in connection with the matters under discussion.

I do not think that the work of boards of health is properly understood. These boards are at present carrying out 90 per cent. of the administrative work in every county, and a progressive board can undertake innumerable works which would be of great benefit to the health of the people. These boards have very great power and responsibilities. They have to administer the Medical Charities Act, the Tuberculosis Act, home assistance, and to deal with doctors, nurses, dispensaries, the supplying of medicines, and innumerable other matters of importance that are of benefit to the community. I am only mentioning matters concerning public health. It is very important that those who are members of these boards should adopt the methods we have adopted in Westmeath. By excluding politics and adopting business methods we have succeeded in reducing the demand on the ratepayers during the last three years by 25 per cent. notwithstanding the fact that there was an increase of about 33 per cent. in the amount paid in home assistance, which now amounts almost to £11,000 per year. I hope that the important work done by boards of health will be recognised. People should not be blaming the Local Government Department for many matters complained of. If there are complaints about water supplies or other matters, they should blame the boards of health and not the Department, because the Department does not tie down these boards in regard to health matters. Deputy Brennan mentioned something about a scarcity of water in Roscommon. Such matters are dealt with by boards of health, and a progressive board, which excludes politics and acts in the best interests of the people, ought to be able to carry out works of very great benefit. I hope my remarks will be carefully considered by people who are in the habit of blaming the Local Government Department, when they ought to blame their own representatives.

General MULCAHY

I should like to refer to a remark of Deputy Lemass, suggesting that there was some cause for secrecy in connection with the alleged non-publication of the Abstract of Accounts of the Dublin Union. The last audited Abstract was formally published and offered to the Press for publication if necessary. It was not printed, for the reason that it would cost about £100, and that hitherto the applications for copies of the printed Abstract numbered two or three. But it was formally and duly published, and is available for reference to any one who wants to refer to it. I feel that Deputy Lemass's statement was made thoughtlessly, but it is rather irresponsible to suggest that there is cause for secrecy in connection with the accounts of any public body without, at any rate, making some inquiry as to what the position is.

Mr. LEMASS

Are the Commissioners not bound by statute to print the accounts?

Mr. MacENTEE

And have them available on payment of the fee for any person who requires a copy?

General MULCAHY

I had no notice of any question, good, bad or indifferent, about this matter. The Commissioners may be bound by statute to have printed copies. I do not know whether it can be argued that typewritten copies would come within the terms of the statute, but if it is argued that £100 ought to be spent, in a needless way, by people who have responsibilites for looking after the poor, in a way that lies so heavily on the Union Commissioners, as has been referred to by Deputies, I would be prepared to consider whether there might not be found a way out of unnecessarily spending £100 on printing which was not necessary.

Mr. MacENTEE

I agree, but I think the main point is that people willing to pay the prescribed fee for these accounts cannot secure them.

General MULCAHY

I would be glad to have brought to my notice if there were such persons unable to obtain copies of the account who were ready to pay the statutory fee.

Mr. HOLT

Are not the Commissioners bound in law to print and publish these Abstracts? They are bound in law under the Union Accounts Order to do that and to print and publish them.

General MULCAHY

If a question is put to me on that matter, I can provide the correct answer, but I say it is irresponsible and wrong that for whatever reason it should be suggested in connection with the Dublin Union Commissioners that any of their accounts have not been published and that they are kept secret because of reasons that are suggested in remarks like that.

Mr. HOLT

They are not suggested at all. The statement was made in the public Press that a Dublin ratepayer applied for a copy of the Abstract of these accounts and that he was refused.

General MULCAHY

Can the Deputy say the name of the paper?

Mr. HOLT

The paper is "Honesty." Is it true or not?

General MULCAHY

The matter comes up to me in this way. It is suggested by Deputy Lemass that the Abstract of Accounts of the Dublin Union have not been published for reasons that demand secrecy.

Mr. LEMASS

Is it not a fact that the accounts were not sent to the Press until that paper referred to the matter?

General MULCAHY

Were they sent to the Press?

Mr. LEMASS

After a fortnight's or three weeks' agitation the paper succeeded in getting a typewritten copy of the Abstract which by statute is supposed to be printed and to be available on demand.

General MULCAHY

I say the Deputy's last statement is a further reflection upon him in coming forward and suggesting that there was secrecy in the matter. Apparently the Deputy knew at the time he made the statement that copies of the Abstract had been sent to the Press.

Mr. LEMASS

Yes, after pressure.

Mr. O'KELLY

This House is supposed to insist upon the fulfilment of all statutory law, and the Minister is supposed to be the guardian of the law in regard to Local Government. He stands up here and lectures people for asking that the law of which he is the guardian, on behalf of this House, shall be insisted upon. The Minister might adduce good reasons as to why £100 or £50 should not be spent. But if there is a law on a statute book authorising and insisting that these accounts should be printed, and submitted to the public, in a certain way. and if he wants that law amended there is a way to do it, and that is to bring the matter before the House and have the law amended. As long as the law is in existence he should see it is carried out. The Minister should be the last person to lecture the House and tell us that a law that he thinks is not necessary, or that ought to be amended, need not be carried out, because he thinks it unnecessary that a certain sum of money should be spent. If the ratepayers are to be saved the expenditure of this money, there is a way of saving it. It is not his province to lecture the House, but to insist on the law which he is bound to administer being carried out.

General MULCAHY

I think the Deputy's remarks are entirely beside the point. A question has been put to me as to whether a certain body are statutorily bound to issue a printed statement of their Abstracts.

Mr. O'KELLY

It is a fact.

General MULCAHY

I do not know whether they are or not.

Mr. O'KELLY

You ought to know.

General MULCAHY

I ought, of course, and I am able to provide information in the proper way if the information is properly asked for.

Mr. O'KELLY

We need not ask for it; we know it.

General MULCAHY

I am not in the position and do not suggest to the House that I am in the position, to say whether "typewritten" could be regarded in a court of law as "printed."

Progress ordered to be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again on Wednesday.