Before Deputy Sheehy resumes might I ask for an indication as to the course the debate is to take? In the course of the debate up to this a number of points of detail, not merely on this Estimate, but on the various Estimates for the Department of Education were mentioned. When introducing this Vote I dealt with the educational policy of the Department as a whole. That statement of general policy dealt not merely with this Vote but with the other Votes for the Department. I consider that aspect of the question has been sufficiently covered, so far as I am concerned, by my introductory statement on general policy. I know, of course, it is exceedingly difficult to distinguish on a matter of this kind between what is a matter of detail and what is strictly speaking, a question of general policy. When replying I should like to reserve to myself the right, even though matters of detail are mentioned in the course of the debate on this particular Vote, to deal with them in what seems to me to be the more appropriate place, namely, on the particular Estimate with which they deal. Deputy Fahy, for instance, in addition to dealing with the general policy of the Department, mentioned quite a number of other things. I think he mentioned a number of questions of detail, not merely on the Vote for Primary Education, but on the Votes for Secondary and Technical Education as well.
IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. VOTE No. 45—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION (RESUMED).
It is difficult to say how the debate should be conducted. My own view, expressed at different times before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, is that a debate of this kind should be conducted by allotting to it a certain number of hours, and if all these hours are taken on Vote 45, then Vote 45 should be put, and Votes 46, 47, 48, 49, and 50 without debate, if necessary. If all the details are debated on Vote 45, I presume that so much discussion would be saved on the other Votes. The Minister's point, as I understand it, is that the discussion of details should conclude on Vote 45, the Estimate that we are now dealing with.
Yes.
Mr. T. SHEEHY
As the representative of Munster on the old Technical Board of Instruction, I wish to endorse all that has been so well said by the Minister for Education as to the activities of that Board for 25 years. Technical education was carried out by that Board all over the country. The chief officer associated with the work, Mr. Fletcher, although an Englishman, gave great services to the old Board of Technical Education here. The building up of the institution of technical instruction went on here for the long period of 26 years. It would be a bad thing for the country if, by any act of the Dáil, the activities carried on during that period were to cease now. I was glad to hear the Minister for Education lay particular emphasis on that question. As the head of the present Education Department, he is prepared to take up the work of the old Board in that respect. In doing so, I can tell him that he will have the best wishes of the parents of the children in this State. On that Board, I had as a colleague Deputy Kelly. We had representatives on it from Belfast and Londonderry and from Connacht and Munster. During the four years that I attended the Board up to its dissolution there was not a single division taken at its meetings. The members of the Board, representing the four provinces of Ireland, discussed every question affecting the progress of technical education. They were all filled with the one idea—namely, to utilise the funds placed at the disposal of the Board for the best advantage of the rising generation. Two members of that Board struck me as being most sincere men.
We are not discussing that Board now.
Mr. SHEEHY
All I will say, then, with regard to the old Board is this, that they have left a legacy of work to the Minister for Education which I feel is precious. I realise that the Estimates before the House cannot be much criticised, because the money to be voted will be utilised for a great and a good object—namely, the education of the youth of the country.
The Minister in his address in connection with this Vote mentioned that boys and girls who leave the National Schools at 14 years of age no longer walked out into the wilderness, but were taken up and trained by his Department in such a manner that they could face the battle of life with confidence and would be able to go into trades and callings in their own land.
took the Chair.
I wish to raise a small point, but still one of importance. It is concerned with the question of arranging the summer holidays during the season when beet thinning and mangold and turnip thinning take place in the tillage areas. Agricultural labourers who have not very high wages depend to a large extent on the few pounds the children earn during that period to buy boots and clothes for them. This is a class of work at which the children are quite as proficient as people of mature age. They are also a great help to the farmers, for it is difficult to get help for turnip thinning during that period. I know that up to the present there was a difficulty about arranging to have the school holidays in that period, which I would say would be from the end of June to the time that the summer holidays extend. The difficulty before this, I believe, was that teachers had to attend Irish classes in the month of September. If the Minister could see his way to arrange the holidays, say, from the end of June to whatever time they extend at present, I think it would be a matter of great convenience to the parents of these children and to the farmers.
For years we have debated the question of pensions. I understand that the pensions scheme has now been adopted as far as secondary teachers are concerned. I should like to know from the Minister when this scheme is coming into operation. With regard to teachers in primary schools who have been promoted, some time during last year I asked a question as to whether the period during which they had been teaching would be added to the years that would entitle them to a pension. The answer I got was that the Minister was sympathetic —I think that it was the Minister for Finance who answered me—but that he could not introduce the necessary legislation until the result of the actuarial examination which was being carried out was known. I should like to know whether the result of that examination is now known, and whether the Minister is going to take any precautions to have those teachers who have been promoted inspectors having the years added during which they were acting as teachers. I learned with great pleasure that 350 new schools have been provided during the year. A point that has attracted our attention for years is that occasionally during the winter time no fires are provided in these schools. There is no proper ventilation, and the children rebreathe the air until they are perfectly stupid. I should like to think that in those 350 new schools the ventilation and sanitation have been attended to.
The question of the sanitation of schools was referred to, I think, in connection with the Department of Local Government Vote. When it was asked whether it was possible to make an alteration in these schools we were told there were certain means by which a manager could be compelled to provide proper sanitation—that is to say, he could be brought into court. Has it ever happened that a manager has been brought into court because of the insanitary condition of schools? Another point that has attracted attention for a number of years is the question of the provision of playing fields. Nothing has impressed itself more on me as the years proceed than the necessity of providing school children with some place where they can play. Where children are allowed to play on the roads owing to the increased traffic in every direction it is almost impossible that they would not fall victims to accidents that would end fatally. Therefore, I think an endeavour should be made to get a piece of land on which children may play. Another matter was touched upon in connection with the Local Government Vote, and it is on that is always very near to my heart, that is the provision of meals. My memory goes back to my own school days, when I had to walk over two miles to school, and I had eaten my little lunch before I reached school and had to walk home at 4 o'clock to hungry and tired that I was incapable of eating a decent meal at that time. Since then I have always thought it would be a very good thing if we could give the children a cheap meal, and by that I mean a glass of milk and a slice of bread and butter. In these three you have the ordinary constituents of food that are necessary, and are better than beef-tea, cocoa, and all those things we hear talk about. The farmer is not getting more than sixpence a gallon, I understand, for his milk, and it would not take a great many gallons to give children at least half a pint of milk.
It would not take a great many loaves to give the children a couple of slices of bread during the middle of the day. There are people who are able to provide lunch for their children, while others cannot give them even a decent breakfast, with the result that children are sent in an ill-fed and ill-clad condition to school in which there is not much firing or warmth, and nothing but disaster can follow from such conditions. You cannot raise a high standard race under such circumstances. Wet feet, bad ventilation, insanitary conditions in a school where you have ill-fed and ill-clad children, are all against children improving their education. I want to call attention to a rule which exists in connection with the national school system, a rule which, I understand, has been in existence for some time, but the sooner it is eliminated the better. I just want to put the case of a teacher in County Cavan, who had an assistant teacher working under him. When it came to the Christmas holidays he had forgotten the fact that he had taken a certain number of days off for elections and other events, and without any conference with or knowledge on the part of the assistant, he fixed for three weeks' holidays.
As I say, the assistant was not consulted and the three weeks' holidays were given and taken. The assistant had made arrangements for going away, but she had to remain in the place and pay extra. That, however, does not come into the matter, but what does come into it is, that when the teacher was penalised, as he justly was, by a deduction from his salary, the poor girl who was never consulted, had £3 taken from her salary. That is a most unfair rule. I do not care who made it. The sooner it is withdrawn the better. The girl had no voice in the matter, but she had her salary reduced. I spoke to the Minister several times about the matter, and he said he was unable to do anything because there were about forty other cases under the same rule. If there are, I say that the sooner the rule is changed the better, because it is not fair that a person who has no voice in the matter should have three or four pounds taken off her salary through no fault of hers.
I have a few words to say in reference to new schools about to be built. One thing which I would like the Minister to take into consideration in the building of new schools is the installation of modern patent appliances. Old methods are apparently regarded as being good enough for new schools in rural districts. It is about time, however, that new heating arrangements were put in so that the heat would be diffused throughout the school generally, and not left for the benefit of the teacher and a few children standing near him. Some consideration should be given to the children all over the school as it is useless sending a child who is hungry, wet and cold to school in the winter. I also want to draw the Minister's attention to the needs of drinking water in the schools. I know schools where there is not a drop of clean drinking water provided for the children, even within a reasonable distance. In such cases there should be, at least a vessel to carry the water every morning from a well, but, if there is no well, a pump should be supplied, as it is necessary that children should be provided with God's own gift, clean water.
I also want to draw attention to some facts in connection with school holidays in rural areas. It is all very well to provide teachers with holidays in seasons when they can go away and enjoy them, but what about the children who have to go to school, hail, rain or snow during the winter months and who often spend their holidays uselessly hanging around during fine weather when they should be getting the benefit of education? I do not expect that an immediate remedy will be provided for that, but I wish the Minister would take into consideration the fact that some scheme should be developed to provide substitute teachers during holidays, if they are absolutely necessary. Children who may not be able to go to school during the winter, should, in my opinion, be allowed go to school during the summer. Some Deputies seem to think that this is a joke, but, perhaps, they had not to go over the hills three or four miles to school. They probably have had the advantage of a school being close to them or of going to a boarding school. There is more in this than a mere joke. Perhaps it would be well if we could transport some of the jocular Ministers, whose risible faculties are easily excited, and send them down to go to school across the hills in Longford in the depth of winter. Their risible tissues would then become calmer.
I do not know very much about education, but I have a few points to put to the Minister for his consideration. I do not know if this particular position arises in other counties, but I know that in County Meath we are faced with the position, especially on the edges of the county, of having schools very close together. There are cases, however, especially in areas where the land has been divided, where cottages have been built, and where there are many children but no schools. These children often have to walk three or four miles to school. That seems to be a case of redundancy, and it could be easily relieved by doing away with one school and building another in a more central position. I, personally, knew cases where it amounted to absolute cruelty. I have known cases which can be proved to have turned out fatal, where children have actually died owing to the necessity of having to walk long distances in bad weather. It always struck me as being very peculiar to hear people speaking about cruelty to animals when, in fact, there exists the source, such as I mention, of great cruelty to children. It is also in after years a source of grea expense to ratepayers. A number of those children when they grow up naturally are unhealthy. They never seem to get over the hardships of these long walks. I hope that that is peculiar only to the County Meath, that the peculiar circumstances in County Meath have given rise to it, but it is certainly a case in which some definite steps will have to be taken to relieve the children. I know a particular area in which there are three schools within a couple of miles of each other, and the district I speak of is at least three or three and a half miles away from these schools. Some steps must be taken to relieve those children.
Another point which has struck me is that no attention whatever is paid, as far as I know, to the teaching of local history in the schools. I think it is very important that not alone should local history be taught, but that a certain amount of instruction should be given regarding local industries peculiar to a district. I think it is very important that children should know something of the local history, something in which they can take a pride, so that in after years, when they become men and women, they can intelligently explain to visitors or strangers the history of the different historical centres in their locality. It is unfortunate, I suppose, that in Ireland we do not possess any authentic history. There is, especially, no history of local ancient monuments or historical centres. I think that an effort should be made in those schools. By the teaching of local history an appetite can be created amongst children for a knowledge of whatever historical associations happen to be connected with their localities.
I desire to support the plea made by Deputy Sir James Craig for the provision of school meals for children, particularly in the rural districts. In some districts at present children have to walk as far as three and four miles to school. These children cannot get home before 4 p.m. or 4.30 p.m. in the evening. At that time they are not able to eat a decent meal, so that it would be very highly desirable if provision were made for a meal of some kind for the children at the schools. A meal such as Deputy Sir James Craig suggested, a slice of bread and butter and a glass of milk, would not cost very much, and would contain all the important ingredients necessary for the food of children. The matter of playgrounds is also very important. If children do not get proper exercise they cannot be healthy, and they certainly will not be able to attend to their studies as well as they otherwise would. The provision of proper playgrounds would mean the encouragement of games and the encouragement of games and the encouragement of education go hand in hand. If children have an interest in games they will return to school after play hour satisfied, and they will do better work.
Another very important matter in reference to schools in rural Ireland is sanitation. When the Local Government Estimate was under consideration I asked the Minister for Local Government to state in his reply if the sanitation of schools was under the control of the local authority. I did not hear the Minister's reply, but I understand he said that there was a method of compelling managers to keep schools in a proper sanitary condition. The method, I understand, that is being adopted at present is that when the ordinary school inspector visits the school to make his annual inspection, he inspects the sanitary accommodation attached to the school. I would like to know to whom does he make his report on the sanitary condition of the school, and if the report is acted on. If the report is made to the Board of Education, I presume the Board of Education sends the report to the Local Government Department, otherwise the local authority—which is the sanitary authority—cannot act on the report.
Have they not a medical officer of their own?
The medical officer of health, as far as I know, simply makes a report to the local authority. I have done it time and time again, and the matter has ended there. In some schools I have been informed by the teachers that the dry closets attached to the school have not been cleaned out for upwards of forty years. There are schools in my own particular district, upon which I have reported for four and five years, and they are still insanitary. If the Minister for Local Government meant that there was a way of enforcing the sanitary laws by taking the managers into court or some other way, the sooner it is done the better, because when one makes reports to the local sanitary authority, the Board of Health at present, it simply means that the matter ends there. If the Local Government Department have the power they should enforce the sanitary laws, and if it is a matter for the Education Department, that Department should enforce them. They should see that schools are kept in a proper sanitary condition, otherwise the children cannot continue immune from the various diseases to which the sanitary conditions of the schools would render them liable.
I do not intend to be anything but very brief, and propose rather to mention points than to argue questions which they might cause to arise. On general matters I would like to support what Deputy Sir James Craig and Deputy Dr. O'Dowd have said in reference to the urgent need for considering what can be done to change the conditions under which ill-clad, ill-fed, poor children are being taught at present. I think it applies equally well to the town districts as to the country. In many parts of the country there are districts which are slum districts in regard to the conditions prevailing, and it is hopeless to pretend to educate children under conditions like those. Deputy Sir James Craig stated the case in connection with those matters very well. I do not want to say any more about it, but it raises a big question. I am not prepared at the moment to say how the problem is to be tackled, but it raises a question of whether this State is to undertake the feeding of those children. Beyond any dispute something ought to be done. I was glad to hear the Minister say that he has reason to believe that the Compulsory Attendance Act is giving promise of working well. My information is that that is quite true, particularly in country districts, though I have heard that it is not working well in many town districts. I would be glad to hear from the Minister whether that is so or not.
I am anxious to save time by mentioning in a group many points in connection with the various estimates which I desire to have referred to. I would prefer that rather than take up time on the various heads of the Estimates. I think that is what the Ceann Comhairle indicated. With regard to primary education there are two points I would like to mention. I would like to know from the Minister whether the policy of the Department has altered at all with reference to the position of what used to be called the first of first-class teachers. In the time of the old Commissioners of National Education an agreement was made as to the teachers' salaries, and one point of doubt which was ultimately held by the Commissioners to be established by those first of first-class teachers was that they were entitled to a special bonus which was awarded under that agreement. If the Commissioners had remained in office there is little doubt that that agreement would have been adhered to in that respect. I understand that the Department did not feel themselves obliged to carry out that agreement, and yet it does seem as if a prima facie case, or at any rate a strong equitable case, had been made out for giving the bonus to the first of first-class teachers which was agreed to under that agreement. In that connection it occurs to me that very often before I urged the Department to consider whether, in view of the pension fund, something could not be done to relieve the position of the pensioned teachers who retired over thirty years ago. Many of them are still in a condition of deplorable poverty. There are quite a considerable number of them still living and in receipt of pensions varying from £40 to £50 a year. Their position, as has been pointed out by me already, was attended to in Northern Ireland, but their position has not been alleviated at all in the Saor-stát. The amount of money involved is very small. To my mind there is an urgent case for helping them to some extent at least.
With reference to secondary education, three points which have been separately debated on these Estimates hitherto, include the salary scheme on which I just want to make one or two remarks. The scheme, on the whole, may be said to be working well, but I think it leaves room for improvement. It is unsatisfactory that there should be any teachers who are not in receipt of this help to their salaries. There may be difficulties in securing that. The figures that the Minister supplied in reply to a question two or three weeks ago, indicated that the financial difficulties could not be large. It is unsatisfactory, to my mind, that there are still secondary teachers who are not receiving any benefit at all from the help that the State is giving to secondary education. I think it would not be at all impossible to devise a scheme with no great cost that would enable the secondary teachers who are qualified and efficient to get the help which they need to their present small salaries. The second point is, that many of these teachers are in a very doubtful position as to tenure. Reasonable stable tenure ought to be possible to secure for secondary teachers. No attempt has yet been made to give them that security. The third point on which I have often spoken before is a question of pensions for secondary teachers. To argue that point is quite unnecessary, and probably not in order, but I think the principle has been admitted by the House that a scheme of pensions for secondary teachers should be provided. The point I want to stress is the delay that has occurred in producing such a scheme. The matter has been under consideration for. I think, more than two years. It would be a misfortune if this session came to an end without there being some definite declaration from the Department and from the Minister for Finance as to what they propose to do with reference to that proposed scheme for pensioned teachers. There are very grave difficulties in the management of schools owing to the holding up of this scheme. In many schools old teachers are being retained simply because they are waiting for the promulgation of this scheme, and the management are unable to make their arrangements for pensioning the teachers who ought to be pensioned, because they do not know to what extent their funds would be called upon to supplement any grant that may be made for that pension by the State. I have the strongest hope that the Minister will see his way to indicate, at any rate before the close of the session, the scheme which he proposes to introduce and the date at which that scheme may be expected to come into force. In such a scheme I hope he will see that provision is introduced for providing certain allied points which are of importance to secondary teachers. There is the small but important section, namely, the students training colleges, for which at present there is no provision at all for pensions for the staff.
I also feel obliged to refer to the fact that the inspectors of schools in the different branches are in this position, that any service they gave as teachers before being appointed to the inspectorships does not count when their claim for a pension comes to be considered. That seems to me a position which cannot logically be defended for a moment. The services they gave as teachers were services that qualified them for performing their work properly as inspectors, and it seems unreasonable that such services should not be counted when their length of service for a pension is being calculated. These are periods of their service in respect of which they should be entitled to a pension. The present conditions are such that from the time an inspector starts work as an inspector he is not able to qualify for a full pension to which he would be entitled under this scheme owing to his not having served as an inspector long enough. I have not delayed very long in arguing these points because I know it would take a very long time to put the whole case. That is because we all feel that in connection with these Estimates the time is very precious and that it is necessary for us to put our points as briefly as we possibly can.
I join with Deputy Professor Thrift in the appeal which he has so ably made for the pensioned teachers. It is within my own knowledge that many of these deserving old men and women who have given very good and faithful service to the State as national teachers are now living on the borders of poverty. In the city of Cork to-day there are a few of the old pensioned teachers of the first-of-first class, the old class which many Deputies in this House will remember, and, to my knowledge, they are so badly off that they are nearly on the verge of starvation. They are precluded by virtue of the small pension from getting anything under the Old Age Pensions Act and, in like manner, they are precluded from getting anything in the form of Home Assistance, so that the plight of many of those old teachers is very pitiable indeed. I would appeal to the Minister, with Deputy Thrift, to take the case of these teachers into his serious and sympathetic consideration.
Another matter to which I would like to refer very briefly is in connection with the children of the very poor. In Cork City, as most Deputies must be aware, there are many National Schools, some conducted by lay teachers and others by monastic orders. I have on many occasions seen children congregated about the doors of the National Schools, frequently half an hour or an hour before the schools open. Many of those children are sent to school without any breakfast. To my knowledge, many of the National teachers have, out of their own pockets, subscribed the wherewithal to give something in the form of nourishment to these very poor children. There is one aspect of the whole question of national education which, I think, has not been touched upon. It is the cost of school utensils and books. As one who has taken a very deep interest in the whole question of education, I have gone to the trouble to make some inquiries of National teachers and others, and I find that in one school something like 30 per cent. of the children had unemployed parents or guardians, as the case may be. These poor children would find the sum of sixpence or eightpence far beyond the means of their parents and guardians, and whilst it might appear a very trivial matter to the child of the well-to-do, to the child of the poor unemployed person it is a very different matter. Something should be done, if not in this year's Budget, at least in the next, to secure that those children, many of them very bright, intellectual children, should not, because of that particular drawback in the nature of want of money to provide necessary books and utensils, suffer educationally.
There is another matter to which I would like to draw the Minister's attention, namely, the position of teachers in Convent and Monastery Schools and junior assistant mistresses in relation to their pension rights. As that matter would take up a good deal of the time of the House, I would ask the Minister to be good enough, at some future date, to receive either a memorial or a deputation on their behalf that would go at some length into the details connected with this matter, and it would obviate the necessity for me to make any lengthy statement now in that connection. I am, however, interested in another phase of education with which I would like to deal at some length, but as I will be able to deal with it under another heading I will reserve it for that particular heading, even though it might not be an appropriate heading. I think I could raise it on Vote 46 (Primary Education) or Vote 47 (Secondary Education). I refer to the question of University extension. It is quite appropriate and quite proper that I could deal with it now, but if the Minister will assure me that I will have another opportunity of referring to it at a future date I will be quite satisfied.
The Deputy can deal with it now if he so desires.
I would like briefly to touch on the whole question of adult education and University extension, but the time is very limited, and I had intended to deal with it in detail. I know there are other speakers who wish to follow me on the question of national education and, therefore, I will be as brief as I possibly can. Whilst not wishing to make any invidious comparisons between this country and America, or this country and England on the question of education, I would, at the same time, like to point to the fact that you have operating, in England and other countries, Workers' Educational Associations and, of later date, National Labour Colleges. I do know that the very name of National Labour College would not have a very strong appeal to this House, and particularly to some of the educationists; but I have some experience of what that movement means, and perhaps it would be just as well if some of those who do not know much about the movement in other countries listened while I recapitulate, in a very brief way, what has happened across the Channel and in other countries in the workers' educational movement. Not because of its prefix "workers" must it be thought that it is a movement which deals merely with elementary education. It goes something beyond that, and when I tell you that the Universities of Cambridge and Oxford have taken the matter up, and that some of the leading Universities in America have taken the matter up, perhaps that in itself will commend it to the opinions of some of our Deputies. Some of these colleges, run under the auspices of the Workers' Educational Association and under the auspices of the National Labour College movement, have a curriculum which ranges over a very wide number of subjects, including history, economics, civics, literature, philosophy, music, botany, etc. This course, I may remark in passing, extends over three years in the majority of cases, but special arrangements are made whereby the process can extend over only one year. That, of course, as you can readily understand, is a fairly intensified process. The management of those classes—I do not want to detain you by going into very minute details— is in the hands of the students themselves or their organisations, with the co-operation, of course, of the professors from the universities. What I want to stress more than anything else is this: the aloofness, the detachment, of our Irish Universities to what is going on around them.
As I pointed out, some of the old and somewhat exclusive universities across the Channel have come out of their shells, so to speak, and identified themselves with these democratic colleges. In this country we have universities standing quite aloof from democracy, and in that connection I might say that some of the new aristocrats of the newly rich tribe are about the greatest offenders in that respect. What I suggest for the serious consideration of the Minister is the fact that these university extension courses are established across the Channel, and they are in other countries, so that there is no reason why university extension courses should not be established in this country, unless perhaps it be the inherent antagonism of the university dons to modern though and progress. I admit that there is something new in that, but I say that we have not shown in our universities anything approaching the progress, either material or moral, that has been shown in other countries. I would ask the Minister to take into consideration the advisability of establishing these tutorial classes throughout the Free State.
When one listens to the debate and to the views of the Deputies, one sympathises to a certain extent with the Minister if he is to try and please all parties. Deputy Killane pointed out how difficult it was for children to attend school in bad weather. He said that it would be much better if an arrangement could be made so that the children would attend school in the summer time, when the weather is more favourable. If Deputy Killane had been here a few years ago, when the Act providing for compulsory attendance at school was passed, he would have found considerable opposition to that idea. The Farmers' Party wanted quite the opposite; they wanted the children to attend school in bad weather in order that they might help their parents during the fine weather in saving the crops. I think there is a lot to be said in that respect, and if the Compulsory Education Act was before the House now I am afraid it would meet with more opposition than it did then, because although the Act has many advantages it has also disadvantages. I was told by a District Justice how unreasonable it is to expect children to attend school in certain circumstances, how they are sometimes forced to go, and that when the real facts are revealed on a prosecution it is discovered that absence was not due to inattention, but very often because the parents had no breakfast to give them. That may not be the reason always for keeping children at home, but I think the District Justice should be able to exercise leniency when cases of that kind occur. At present the District Justice has no option but to impose a fine. He should be allowed to exercise some leniency.
It lies in the hands of the District Justice altogether. The complaint I have got is that the District Justice has too much of an option.
Reference has been made to plots of land for playing purposes. While I agree that there is a certain amount of education to be derived in that respect, I think that the plots might be extended, so as to have demonstration plots for children who are inclined to follow an agricultural life after leaving school. The sanitation of the schools has been touched upon in the debate. If there is proper sanitary accommodation in the school, it helps the children in after life to take an interest in sanitary matters. I desire to refer particularly to the condition of a sewer at Ardagh School. I raised this matter some years ago. I can recollect speaking about it after a particular meeting I attended, which was held in the Seanad room to discuss the Border question. That was four or five years ago, and nothing has since been done. The sewer remains in the same condition, and in warm weather the children complain about it. In fact the teacher will almost have to close the school unless something is done to remedy matters. I spoke to the sanitary officer, and he told me that he was tired writing letters about it. I have mentioned the matter in this House two or three times, and I went before the Board of Health, but nothing has been done. One Board shifts the responsibility on to another Board, and nobody seems to be responsible. Having called attention to the matter now, I hope that I will get some satisfaction.
I would like to emphasise what Deputy Sir James Craig said about a lady school teacher. I think it was unreasonable. It may be as the Deputy stated, that there are 30 or 40 other similar cases. If there are, that is all the more reason why something should be done. It seems very peculiar that one teacher can dismiss another teacher, and close the school. In this particular case it was against the wishes of this teacher that the school was closed. She got notice one day that the school was going to be closed the next day, and that was all. She was simply told by the principal that the school would be closed on the following Monday or Tuesday, although this teacher was living on the premises. She had made no arrangements to go away, yet her salary was stopped, all through the mistake or otherwise of the principal teacher. I would like to emphasise all that has been said on behalf of first-of-first teachers. I think their case is pitiable, and that the position with regard to them is unreasonable, and that they should receive some consideration.
I feel very much inclined to throw back Deputy Anthony's accusation against the university dons, as he calls them, on his own head, and to say that nobody has shown himself more remote from the current world in that respect than Deputy Anthony has done, by the remarks he made concerning universities to-day. I have no desire at all to argue about extension lectures. On that I would probably find myself very largely in agreement with him, except that the work done by extension lectures in other countries is to a large extent done by the universities in their ordinary everyday work here. What I want to discuss with him is the attack upon the remoteness of dons. It is a favourite charge against dons, and was made by a distinguished English writer 40 years ago, so that I am afraid Deputy Anthony is living at least 40 years back in this respect. He is so remote from the modern world that he has failed to realise the unprecedentedly large number of dons and ex-dons that he has as colleagues in the Dáil. It has often been said in this country that the difficulty is to keep them out of public life. I would like to have Deputy Anthony discuss with the author of this pamphlet on "The Case for a Tariff on Flour" which I have here, the question whether that gentleman, who is a distinguished don in Deputy Anthony's own town, is a remote and ineffectual don.
The exception.
There may be some question as to his effectualness, but I think no one can accuse him of remoteness. I am afraid I am inclined to find myself, on a number of questions that are annually discussed here concerning education, occupying a rather illiberal and conservative position. I may perhaps be justifying Deputy Anthony's accusation to that extent. But I have always felt—at least up to this year—that discussions on the Education Estimates were somewhat too much taken up with the externals of education. We have too much of a tendency to think that if we provide palatial school buildings, perfect sanitation, school meals for every child, and a number of expensive adjuncts of that kind to education we have done all that is necessary for education. I quite agree that there is a great deal to be done still before we have reached perfection, so far as our resources will permit, in these respects, but I would suggest that there are other things in education, and I am glad to see that this year in particular most Deputies have adverted to these other things.
There are other things besides school buildings and meals for children. There are a great many other matters on which we could spend money more effectively than on, say, the provision of free meals by the State for school children. Not that I am opposed by any means to the idea of free meals for certain types of school children, but I do believe that we would be adopting a more business-like attitude if we had some plan by which the provision of school meals, and of cheap or free text-books, would be taken over by the local people instead of being made a State charge. When the State deals with matters of that kind you are always liable to have a great amount of overlapping and an amount of money misspent by the mere fact that the State is an enormous institution and cannot very easily deal with remote cases. I do not think that the State should ever look forward to the time when all school children would be getting free meals. I do not think that that would be an economic proposition. What you should deal with is individual cases of hardship, which certainly should be remedied, not as a matter of charity at all, but as a matter of duty. I agree with the Labour Party in that respect, that it should be the duty of the community to remedy what hardships there are with regard to school meals and text-books, but I say that it would be much better and more efficient if that duty fell on the shoulders of a small local community rather than on the shoulders of the State. I think that there would be a much better chance of making progress in that way—and it is a matter we ought to try to make progress in— if we tried to work out some scheme by which school managers, at any rate in country districts, would be induced and encouraged to see after the provision of free school meals and cheap or free text-books.
There were two or three points in what Deputy Fahy said to which I would like to advert and emphasise. I was glad to see that he paid a great deal of attention to programmes and to a number of questions which are old cruxes in regard to education, and which need to have a certain amount of light let in on them. He made one request to the Minister which I should like to reinforce. He asked that consideration should be given to the possibility of providing an official series of National School books, both in English and in Irish. I know that at present that is a very expensive proposal, and I yield to no one in my dislike of further expenditure in these matters; but I am not so sure that the advantages to be gained by instituting such a series of text-books would not outweigh whatever extra expenditure would be incurred. I do not think that there was anything more admirable, from their own point of view, in the whole British system of education in this country than the series of text-books which used to be issued by the Stationery Office, and I do believe that since the introduction of the rule in 1900 that these text-books were to be departed from in the schools, primary education has suffered a great loss. I am interested in that matter, not so much as regards the teaching of English, although I believe it is an important thing, but that if you have a uniform and good series of special text-books, not necessarily compulsorily used, but used as far as possible, you will get better value than you get now by relying on the taste or on the capriciousness of some publisher.
But what I am interested in is the question of Irish text-books. We are spending a good deal of money on the production of books in Irish for secondary and other schools, and I have every admiration for the work that is being done by the committee that the Minister has set up to deal with that. But I do believe that even better work could be done if the question of providing a series of text-books in the Irish language on the lines of the old National School text-books issued by the Stationery Office, were followed. What we want more than anything else is some kind of co-ordination and carefully selected reading matter of the best kind in Irish for our primary schools. What we have at present is a rather haphazard system by which, as a great many people know, everything in Irish that comes out from a publisher is regularly put on the programme when it comes out, whether it is good, bad or indifferent. There is very little criticism of these books; there is very little tendency to select what is best; and above all, it seems to me that there is very little tendency to make use in our education of the immense amount of good work that was done by the Gaelic League and other bodies in the publication of Irish books. I would like to see in use a series like the old Gaelic League series, a very large number of the books of which are out of print at present, and even a series like that of the Irish Texts Society, or perhaps a selection made from them, and cheaper issues of them brought out and made available for secondary schools.
In that connection, perhaps my attitude is rather a conservative one, but I do believe that we will get more value and that we will go further in the teaching of Irish if we rely a little more than we do on the literature that is in Irish already, and if we are not in such a hurry to try to force a literature out of people who are not capable of producing it at present in a very large number of cases. I would like very much to see either the State or somebody else reproducing a number of the Gaelic League text-books, which were very useful in their time, but which are now out of print, and making them available for primary schools, and I would like to see more care taken in the selection of the text-books used in primary and in secondary schools and in university education, in modern Irish. I have heard serious complaints from people who are unquestionably authorities on this matter with regard to the books used in the preparatory colleges for the training of teachers. Two text-books were mentioned to me both of which I know are altogether unsuitable for that kind of work, and are almost unsuitable for any work at all. I have been told that teachers, who have been taken at the expense of the State and given a course in Irish in the summer, have had their time taken up with learning these useless text-books, and that a great deal of money was spent in the process. They are then turned out and expected to be able to teach Irish after that. I think that is a very dangerous thing if it is happening. I should like to suggest to the Minister that much greater care ought to be taken in the selection of the type of Irish text-book that is being used from the bottom to the top. Above all, I should like again to emphasise the desirability of instituting as soon as possible—and here I think the question of cost might be almost left on one side as the matter is of such importance —a series of text-books in the Irish language on the lines of the old National Board text-books.
I should like to congratulate the Minister on what I think is a real step in advance, and that is the proposed institution of a primary school leaving certificate. I quite agree that we have far too many examinations in this country, but I believe that the authorities at the time made a mistake 28 or 29 years ago when they abandoned the system of regular examinations in primary schools almost altogether. I think that not only our primary, but our secondary and university education, has been suffering ever since from the fact that we threw over the old results system altogether too completely, not only what was bad, but what was good in it. I think that this proposal to institute a leaving certificate for primary schools will give us what was good in the old results system, and not too much of it, while, at the same time, we have, of course, adopted a much less rigid and much more manageable and liberal system of primary education than we had 40 or 50 years ago.
There was another point that Deputy Fahy raised that I would like to hear discussed, and that is the very large percentage of girls who fail in the Intermediate in subjects like Latin, Mathematics and Science. I can speak with a certain amount of authority on the question of Latin, at any rate, because I have put a considerable number of girls through my hands in the University in the subject of Latin. I have always found that their knowledge was very much inferior to that of the boys. There is something the matter with the teaching of Latin, at any rate—I can say that for certain—in the secondary schools for girls. I think that it would be worth having some investigation into, because it is rather important. It has a most peculiar result in the University. The fact that girls come to the University from secondary schools without any knowledge of Latin influences their selection of courses for one thing, and influences their whole future in the most surprising way, it might be said. I have been making inquiries from some of the people who can speak, perhaps, with most authority on this matter, and from some of the girls themselves, as to what exactly is the reason for this failure in Latin on the part of girls in secondary schools. One reason that has been suggested to me is rather peculiar. It is, that up to recently at any rate— I do not know whether it is so up to the present—there is no such thing as women inspectors of secondary schools. We have never had such an institution. I do not know whether we have it now, but we certainly had not until quite recently.
It was represented to me that all men have a sort of fixed idea in their minds that girls cannot learn either Latin, Mathematics or Science, and that therefore girls are not encouraged to take Latin, for example, at a sufficiently early age in the secondary schools to learn it in a thorough way. Girls, of course, are compelled to take Latin for matriculation in the University. The result is that they take Latin in their last year and try to cram a sufficient amount into their last year to enable them to get through the matriculation, with the result that they may get through the matriculation, but when they come up to the University their knowledge of Latin leaves a great deal to be desired. I think that is a point that is worth putting forward. It is a matter that might be remedied. I do not know whether the suggestion that we should have women inspectors is too big a proposal to make for such a small point, but it is a suggestion that is perhaps worth consideration. In any case I am glad Deputy Fahy raised the point, because it is a serious drawback in secondary education and deserves to have consideration given to it.
I also want to refer to a matter raised by Deputies Thrift and Anthony, and that is the question of pensions and better rights for secondary teachers. I wish to join with these Deputies in asking that the matter should be dealt with at the earliest possible moment. It is clear to any observer, considering our whole scheme of education, that the greatest defect in the system at present, and for many years, has been the position of the secondary teachers, not only in regard to pensions, but also in regard to their status, their salaries and the conditions of their work. It is a remarkable tribute, as a matter of fact, to that most hard-working and most patriotic class of men that they have given such extraordinary good results as they have given to the country under such miserable and poor conditions as they have to work. I think that if any proposition to spend money on education, such as we had yesterday, is put before the Dáil almost the first matter that should receive consideration is the question of secondary teachers. Even if it is necessary to find money in order to deal with that question, I think it should be dealt with as soon as possible, and I hope that before the adjournment we will have some indication of a proposal for legislation to give some satisfaction to the secondary teachers as regards pension, and that when the legislation appears we shall find that our secondary teachers are coming off at least as well out of that legislation as are their colleagues in Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
took the Chair.
SEAN O GUILIDHE
Tairgim go dtabharfar tuairise ar ar dineadh.
Progress ordered to be reported.