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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Jun 1928

Vol. 24 No. 2

PUBLIC BUSINESS. - CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT No. 7) BILL, 1928—FIRST STAGE.

I move for leave to introduce a Bill entitled

"An Act to amend the Constitution by reducing the term of office of members of Seanad Eireann hereafter elected and making consequential alterations in regard to the proportion of the members of Seanad Eireann to be elected every three years and in regard to other matters and making special consequential provision in respect of the proportion of such members to be elected at the election held to fill the places of members of Seanad Eireann who are due to retire in the year 1928 and in respect of the term of office of the members elected at such election."

I oppose the Bill. I notice that it is entitled "An Act to amend the Constitution by reducing the term of office of members of Seanad Eireann hereafter elected and making consequential alterations in regard to the proportion of the members of Seanad Eireann to be elected every three years and in regard to other matters and making special consequential provision in respect of the proportion of such members to be elected at the election held to fill the places of members of Seanad Eireann who are due to retire in the year 1928 and in respect of the term of office of the members elected at such election." It is obvious that the Bill proposes to alter certain sections of the Constitution which deal with the term of office of members of Seanad Eireann and to make other consequential amendments arising therefrom. In order that Deputies may understand the purpose of the Bill and the nature of the objections to it, perhaps it would be no harm if I refer to the sections of the Constitution which it is proposed to amend. Article 31 says:—

"The number of members of Seanad Eireann shall be sixty. A citizen to be eligible for membership of Seanad Eireann must be a person eligible to become a member of Dáil Eireann, and must have reached the age of 35 years. Subject to any provision for the constitution of the first Seanad Eireann the term of office of a member of Seanad Eireann shall be twelve years."

Section 1 of the Constitution (Amendment No. 1) Act, No. 30 of 1925, provides that:

The Constitution shall be and is hereby amended by the insertion therein of the following Article immediately after the Article 31 now contained therein, that is to say:

"31 A.—The duration of the term of office of a member of the first Seanad Eireann shall be reckoned from the beginning of the day on which this Constitution comes into operation, and the duration of the term of office of a member of Seanad Eireann elected under Article 32 of this Constitution shall be reckoned from the beginning of the appropriate triennial anniversary of that day."

Article 32 of the Constitution will also be amended by the passing of this Bill. Article 32 states:

"One-fourth of the members of Seanad Eireann shall be elected every three years from a panel constituted as hereinafter mentioned at an election at which the area of the jurisdiction of the Irish Free State (Saorstát Eireann) shall form one electoral area and the elections shall be held on principles of proportional representation."

Section 2 of the Constitution (Amendment No. 1) Act, No. 30 of 1925, provides that:

The Constitution shall be and is hereby amended by the insertion therein of the following Article, immediately after the Article 32 now contained therein, that is to say:

"32 A. An election of members of Seanad Eireann under Article 32 of this Constitution may be held at any time not more than three months before nor more than three months after the conclusion of the period of three years mentioned in that Article.

"A person who, after the day appointed by law for the completion of the formation of the panel of candidates and before the conclusion of the three years' period running on that day, is chosen under Article 34 of this Constitution to fill a vacancy caused by the death, resignation, or disqualification of a member of Seanad Eireann (other than a member about to retire at the conclusion of the said period) shall hold office until the conclusion of the next three years period and shall then retire."

These, I think, are the Articles of the Constitution which it is proposed to amend by this Constitution (Amendment No. 7) Bill of 1928. The Constitution, of course, has the force of law in this State in consequence of the passing of the Constitution Act. In order that members might be familiar with the terms of the Act it might be no harm to read it.

Could the Deputy not assume that we have read it?

Would the Deputy read the Treaty?

If necessary. Does the Minister think it should be read?

Standing Order 82 reads:—

PASSING OF BILLS.

FIRST STAGE.

When a Bill is to be initiated in the Dáil the title of Bill and a short description of its purpose, prepared by the proposer, and accepted by the Ceann Comhairle, shall appear on the Order Paper.

The description of its purpose is contained in the long title now on the Order Paper in this particular case.

The Deputy giving notice shall move for leave to introduce the Bill. If such motion be opposed, the Ceann Comhairle, after permitting an explanatory statement from the Deputy who moves, and a statement from the Deputy who opposes the motion may, if he thinks fit, put the question thereon. If leave to introduce the Bill be given an Order shall be made for its Second Reading and the Bill shall be printed.

The position, therefore, on this stage is that the Deputy opposing the motion for leave to introduce the Bill is allowed to make an explanatory statement. I allowed in the last case, in my discretion, a statement from Deputy O'Connell, and another from Deputy de Valera. In this case I am allowing a statement from Deputy Lemass, but it is an explanatory statement, and I think the reading of the Constitution Act is not necessary to the explanation.

The Bill is a Bill designed to amend the Constitution which has the force of law in consequence of the passing of the Constitution Act. I would propose to read the whole Constitution, but I suppose it would be ruled out. I thought perhaps some Deputies would like to have a last look at it before it is finally consumed. The Constitution, of course, occupies a very large number of pages in this Book and it would take a long time to read it. I think, in view of the fact that the sections of the Constitution which are referred to and which will be amended by this Bill have no force in this country except in consequence of the Constitution Act, that I would be quite in order in reading the Act to show the purpose the Dáil had in mind when they enacted it. The Act states——

I let the Deputy read the relevant sections of the Constitution itself, but I do not propose to let him read the Constitution Act. That Act is shorter, so that it is not a question of time, but I do not think that that particular matter arises.

I can read the Act?

I can read the Constitution?

Joe Biggar come to life again.

The Bill in any case intends, in the first instance, to reduce the term of office of members of the Seanad. The Government could have taken various courses of action in relation to the term of office of members of the Seanad. They could have left it as it was; they could have increased it; they could have abolished it; and they could do, as they are now proposing, reduce it. It is the opinion of Deputies on this side of the House that any Bill to amend the sections of the Constitution which I have just read out, and which, if necessary, I shall read again, should be a Bill to end the Seanad, not by reducing the term of office of the members, but by abolishing the office of the members. Of course, I can see that a strong case could be made out for making the members of the Seanad life members, letting them get fossilised. Personally, I think, that the best course the Government could have taken——

Is this an argument or a statement?

Both. As regards the first part of the Bill, we on this side of the House intend to oppose it at every Stage because it merely proposes to reduce the term of office of the members and not to abolish the office of members of the Seanad altogether. It then proposes to make certain consequential alterations in regard to the proportion of the members of Seanad Eireann to be elected for three years. Again, of course, various lines of action were open to the Government in that connection. They could have, as I suggested already, allowed the Seanad to go on, like the brook, for ever, or decided that the entire membership should be compelled to seek election every three years. If the entire membership were compelled to seek election every three years, perhaps the competition for membership of that body would not be so keen. If the competition was not so keen, it is quite possible that the nature of the body would be more quickly revealed to the public, and, therefore, the demand for its abolition and the consequent economy would be much stronger. But when you elect members for a period of, I think it is. nine years, there is a strong inducement to people who are past their period of utility in public life to seek refuge in the Seanad, where they will be protected from any discontent on the part of their supporters for a period of nine years. The next portion of the Bill, however,——

I hope the Deputy will remember that the Bill is not before us.

No; but the title or the explanatory statement concerning it states:

and making special consequential provision in respect of the proportion of such members to be elected at the election held to fill the places of members of Seanad Eireann who are due to retire in the year 1928.

It appears that a number of members of the Seanad are due to retire this year, and the purpose of the Bill is to make special consequential provision in respect of the proportion of members due to retire this year, and in respect of the term of office of the members elected at such election. Some nineteen or twenty members—I am not quite sure of the number, as I take no interest in the body—are due to seek election this year. The Government propose, in the first part of the Bill, which has just been read a first time, to abolish the principle of popular vote for the Seanad and to embark upon a new principle. It is, of course, therefore much more likely that the members due to retire this year will be able to recapture their office, because whatever the people of the country might do, they certainly would not, I think, re-elect the majority of them. This Bill is, of course, drafted in consequence of the Report of a Joint Committee on the Constitution of the Seanad which was set up some time ago. I presume I will be in order in reading that Report.

I do not think so. The Deputy can read all that on the Second Stage of this Bill, if it is read a first time now. If it is not read a first time, then there will be no necessity for taking up the time of the House in discussing the matter.

There is a possibility, as I notice the numbers of the Government followers present are small, that we may prevent the Bill getting a First Reading, even as we might not be successful in preventing it getting a Second Reading.

If the Deputy succeeds in preventing the Bill getting its First Reading, the question he is now discussing need not be discussed at all. The Deputy does not want to give the Bill a First Reading. Is not that so?

That is so. Would I be in order in explaining to the House why?

I think so far as the Deputy has gone he has had a fair chance of giving an explanation. He has even succeeded in making a certain amount of comment upon Constitution (Amendment No. 6) Bill, which has been introduced, and I think his explanation on Constitution (Amendment No. 7) Bill is due for an early conclusion.

The Committee set up by the Dáil against the opposition of the members on this side to consider the powers and constitution of the Seanad carried, I noticed, the majority of their recommendations by small majorities. Perhaps if we were to suggest to the Government that a course of action which did not apparently occur to the Committee might be taken, they would be prepared at this stage to withdraw this Bill and redraft it. It is for that purpose I thought it would be desirable to read the Report and indicate exactly the points on which I disagree with the Report in the matters dealt with in this Bill. In view of the fact that the Ceann Comhairle seems to think otherwise, we would be prepared perhaps to let this Bill go now in the hope that it will be defeated and reserve anything further we have to say in this connection for the other Bills upon the Paper.

I want to say, so far as this Bill is concerned, and so far as I can gather from the long title, it proposes to shorten the period of the term of office in the Seanad, and, therefore, I shall vote for the First Reading. As far as I know, that was agreed upon by the Joint Committee.

Notwithstanding the rather uncomplimentary references of Deputy Lemass to the measure, it is really very harmless. It proposes that in future the term of office for which Senators will be elected will be nine years only. The other consequential amendments are with a view to ensuring that by reason of the fact that some twenty members are not due to go out, and consequently not due to be returned, provision is made for such a shorter term of office in respect of any number over fifteen that will be elected on this occasion to make in future certain that at each triennial election twenty members of the Seanad will be elected and that their term of office will be nine years.

Question put: "That leave be given to introduce the Bill."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 39.

  • William P. Aird.
  • Ernest Henry Alton.
  • Richard Anthony.
  • James Walter Beckett.
  • George Cecil Bennett.
  • Ernest Blythe.
  • Séamus A. Bourke.
  • Seán Brodrick.
  • Alfred Byrne.
  • John Joseph Byrne.
  • Edmund Carey.
  • James Coburn.
  • John James Cole.
  • Mrs. Margt. Collins-O'Driscoll.
  • Hugh Colohan.
  • Martin Conlon.
  • Michael P. Connolly.
  • Bryan Ricco Cooper.
  • Richard Corish.
  • William T. Cosgrave.
  • Sir James Craig.
  • John Daly.
  • William Davin.
  • Michael Davis.
  • Peter de Loughrey.
  • Eugene Doherty.
  • James N. Dolan.
  • Peadar Seán Doyle.
  • Edmund John Duggan.
  • Barry M. Egan.
  • Osmond Thos. Grattan Esmonde.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • James Fitzgerald-Kenney.
  • John Good.
  • Denis J. Gorey.
  • John J. Hassett.
  • Michael R. Heffernan.
  • Michael Joseph Hennessy.
  • Thomas Hennessy.
  • John Hennigan.
  • Mark Henry.
  • Patrick Hogan (Clare).
  • Patrick Hogan (Galway).
  • Patrick Michael Kelly.
  • Hugh Alexander Law.
  • Patrick Leonard.
  • Finian Lynch.
  • Arthur Patrick Mathews.
  • Martin McDonogh.
  • Michael Og McFadden.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Joseph W. Mongan.
  • Daniel Morrissey.
  • Richard Mulcahy.
  • Joseph Xavier Murphy.
  • Martin Michael Nally.
  • John Thomas Nolan.
  • Thomas J. O'Connell.
  • Bartholomew O'Connor.
  • Timothy Joseph O'Donovan.
  • Daniel O'Leary.
  • Dermot Gun O'Mahony.
  • John J. O'Reilly.
  • Gearoid O'Sullivan.
  • John Marcus O'Sullivan.
  • William Archer Redmond.
  • Vincent Rice.
  • Martin Roddy.
  • Timothy Sheehy (West Cork).
  • William Edward Thrift.
  • Vincent Joseph White.
  • George Wolfe.
  • Jasper Travers Wolfe.

Níl

  • Frank Aiken.
  • Denis Allen.
  • Gerald Boland.
  • Patrick Boland.
  • Daniel Bourke.
  • Seán Brady.
  • Robert Briscoe.
  • Daniel Buckley.
  • Eamon Cooney.
  • Dan Corkery.
  • Martin John Corry.
  • Thomas Derrig.
  • Eamon de Valera.
  • Frank Fahy.
  • Hugo Flinn.
  • Andrew Fogarty.
  • Seán French.
  • James Ryan.
  • Martin Sexton.
  • Patrick Smith.
  • Samuel Holt.
  • Patrick Houlihan.
  • William R. Kent.
  • James Joseph Killane.
  • Mark Killilea.
  • Michael Kilroy.
  • Seán F. Lemass.
  • Patrick John Little.
  • Ben Maguire.
  • Thomas McEllistrim.
  • Seán MacEntee.
  • Séamus Moore.
  • Thomas Mullins.
  • Patrick Joseph O'Dowd.
  • Seán T. O'Kelly.
  • Matthew O'Reilly.
  • Thomas O'Reilly.
  • Richard Walsh.
  • Francis C. Ward.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Eamon Duggan and P. S. Doyle. Níl: Deputies Gerald Boland and D. Allen. Question declared carried.
Second Stage ordered to be taken Thursday, 14th June, 1928.
Leave given. Bill read a First Time.
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