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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Jun 1928

Vol. 24 No. 2

PUBLIC BUSINESS. - FINANCE BILL, 1928—REPORT STAGE.

MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

I move amendment No. 1.

In page 4, line 49, before Section 6, to insert a new section as follows:—

(1) The landlord or immediate lessor or the occupier of any property charged or chargeable under Schedule A or Schedule B of the Income Tax Act, 1918, may apply to the inspector of taxes for the district in which such property is situated for a certificate that all income tax charged under the said Schedules for all the years of assessment ending prior to the 6th day of April preceding the date of the application has been paid and that no further income tax under the said Schedules is chargeable for such years, and the inspector of taxes on being satisfied as to the facts shall issue a certificate to that effect.

(2) Notwithstanding Section 199 of the Income Tax Act, 1918, where the property charged or chargeable has been sold for valuable consideration, and the certificate referred to in this section has been issued, the tax certified as having been paid or as not being chargeable, shall not be recoverable by distress from the occupier of the property charged or upon the premises in respect of which the assessment is made.

(3) A certificate of the inspector of taxes under this section shall not discharge any person or property from income tax in case of fraud or failure to disclose material facts other than a bona-fide purchaser for valuable consideration without notice of such fraud or failure or the property of such purchaser.

This amendment is put down to meet a point raised by Deputy Little, and I think it substantially does so. It does not provide for certificates showing the amount of taxes due, but it provides for certificates showing that the tax has been paid. If the vendor cannot produce that, the purchaser will have to take steps to protect himself. I think this amendment would prevent such difficulties occurring as Deputy Little referred to.

Amendment put, and agreed to.

I move amendment No. 2.

In page 9, line 33, before Section 19, to insert a new section as follows:—

In sub-section (3) of Section 15 of the Finance Act, 1924 (No. 27 of 1924), the expression "sugar confectionery" shall not include ginger preserved in syrup imported into Saorstát Eireann in wooden barrels or casks of a capacity of not less than one hundredweight.

This was suggested by Deputy Murphy. The real point is that ginger imported in syrup is imported largely for the manufacture of crystallised ginger. The position at present is that the confectionery duty is charged on the ginger and on the syrup.

The weight of the whole consignment is very much less than the weight of the crystallised ginger which can be produced from it. The result is the people at home cannot compete in the sale of crystallised ginger with outside manufacturers. This amendment is really intended to enable them to compete. The ginger imported in jars is a sweetmeat ready for consumption, and it will continue to be charged with the confectionery duty; but this ginger imported in large quantities in casks is really the raw material of the confectionery trade.

Amendment 2 put and agreed to.

I move Amendment No. 3:—

In page 10, line 42, before Section 23 to insert a new section as follows:

"On and after the first day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, Section 1 of the Finance (New Duties) Act, 1916, as amended by Section 3 of the Finance Act, 1917, by Section 11 of the Finance Act. 1918, and by Section 7 of the Finance Act, 1919, shall have effect as if the following scale of rates of entertainment duty were substituted for the scale set forth in the section:

Where the payment, excluding the amount of duty, does not exceed 6d.—nil.

Exceeds

6d. and does not exceed

1s.

0d.—one penny.

,,

1s.

0d. ,,,,,,,,

2s.

0d.—twopence.

,,

2s.

0d. ,,,,,,,,

2s.

6d.—fourpence.

,,

2s.

6d. ,,,,,,,,

3s.

6d.—sixpence.

,,

3s.

6d. ,,,,,,,,

5s.

0d.—ninepence.

,,

5s.

0d. ,,,,,,,,

7s.

6d.—one shilling.

,,

7s.

6d. ,,,,,,,,

10s.

6d.—one shilling and sixpence.

,,

10s.

6d. ,,,,,,,,

15s.

0d.—two shillings.

,,

15s.

0d. —Two shillings for the first 15s. and sixpence for every 5s. or part of 5s. over fifteen shillings.

I do not know that I can say anything about this amendment, beyond what I said previously. I ask the Minister to accept it.

I was not able at this stage to have the examination of the amendment that it was suggested both by Deputy Hogan and Deputy Flinn, might be made. It will require, if we are to raise the rates at all on the higher priced seats, a great deal of care. Any question of charging for entertainments like dance halls will require further investigation. Deputy Flinn made the rather interesting suggestion about charging a percentage of the whole receipts. That could easily e applied to a house where payments are made on certified returns. It will present a good deal of difficulty where stamps are used. I do not know whether it can be applied at all where stamps are used. There is a possibility that we might recast the duties in such a way that we might allow a percentage payment where certified returns are furnished, and have stamps in other cases, perhaps increase the range of stamps. But that involves a greater inquiry than would be possible to give it. What I propose is a concession which will not be costly to the Exchequer while, at any rate, relieving the cheaper seats in the theatre; where the price of admission does not exceed 4d. that no duty will be payable. That would mean in practice that seats for which the present charges are 6d. will be 4d. in future. Where the seats are 6d. it means that the proprietor gets 4½d. and the Exchequer 1½d. If the proprietor will reduce his price to 4d. he will escape the tax, and if he gets nine people in where he got eight in before, he would be as well of. It seems to me that a 50 per cent. reduction in the price ought to produce even a greater increase than that. It is impossible to sacrifice any great sum of revenue at the present stage. The concession I suggest will cost only about £3,000. It will be helping certain picture houses, and it will allow of a 4d. seat being provided where a 6d. seat is the cheapest rate at the present time. Consequently, it will benefit the people who can least afford to go to the cinemas. I have gone as carefully and as sympathetically into the matter as possible in the time available for consideration of it, and I do not think I can give any greater concession than I have indicated.

Might I ask the Minister if he can by any means increase that concession to 5d. instead of 4d. I have been informed that the 4d. concession will apply only to cinemas in the provinces and outside Dublin. If the 5d. concession is given it will bring in a fair proportion, not a very large number, but a fair proportion of the cinemas in the city. I do not wish to press the Minister to make the concession up to 6d., for I think that would involve a considerable sum, but I would ask him, if possible, to go a step further than he has gone and to increase the 4d. to 5d. so as to give some benefit to the Dublin people.

I have gone into this matter as fully as possible, and I could not give more. There are surely 6d. seats in the Dublin cinemas, or in some of them, and if there are, those people will be enabled, and with a profit, to reduce the price of their seats to 4d. I have gone into it as carefully as it was possible in the time. To adopt entirely a new scheme involves a great deal of careful examination, and at the moment I could not give it that examination.

It seems to me that the concession which the Minister has granted scarcely goes far enough. After all, for all practical purposes, so far as Dublin is concerned, the 6d. seats are not the cheapest seats. There are many theatres where the lowest price is 9d. or 1s. You might call those theatres the better class theatres, but at the same time these are the theatres which are very largely patronised by the poorer section of the people. They give a very good show. They are very attractive, because they happen to be very comfortable. The quality of the entertainment provided is a high one. The remission which the Minister for Finance has conceded will not affect those particular places of entertainment at all. Those places will remain exactly as they were before.

I would suggest that the Minister would go further and extend that concession at least to 1s. seats. There are not a considerable number of places of entertainment which will be affected by the concession. The amount that will be involved will, I think, be very small. I would like the Minister if he could see his way to meet us, and to grant the concession at least in respect of seats where the prices of admission do not exceed 1s. Of course, if he was not prepared to do that, then we on these benches would have to adopt a certain attitude, in view of the fact that he has made very extensive concessions to other places of entertainment, to rececourses and entertainments of that description where the prices of admission are not a shilling or sixpence or ninepence, but 10s. and upwards. There, though we have been urging upon him to adopt a certain principle of discrimination, he adopts a principle of discrimination which we think is unwarranted. In so far as he concedes a very large remission to the wealthier classes of the people and the wealthier entertainments and denis it to the poorer classes of the people and the more popular form of entertainment, on those grounds we feel that if a substantial concession is not granted we shall have to oppose the section.

I know the cinema proprietors throughout the country, and in the city also, hold they have been very unfairly dealt with by the Minister in the present Finance Bill. They say they find it very hard to make the cinemas pay in many cases, while on the other hand you have entertainments competing with them making big profits. When the Minister was talking about an entertainments tax on dog racing he stated that the revenue which might be derived from that would be very small; in fact, he mentioned £7,000 or £8,000.

£6,000.

One particular company in this city, according to the balance-sheet for last year—and it was only working five months—made a profit of £18,000. We presume that their profit was not more than 50 per cent. and, therefore, their takings were at the very least £36,000. According to the scale of entertainments tax here, the takings on that £36,000 should be between £7,000 and £8,000. I do not know if the Minister is prepared to say that the profits earned by those people are more than 50 per cent. of the takings. If they are more than 50 per cent., I think they deserve to be taxed, and highly taxed. Last year you had one company promoting dog racing. This year you have a second company in the city. You have others starting in different parts of the country. The revenue from that particular form of amusement should be much more than £7,000 or £8,000. Against that you have the Minister telling us that he is making a large concession by giving a remission which will amount to more than £3,000 a year in the cinema industry. The cinema proprietors hold this, and I suppose they have some justification for it, that they do give a considerable amount of employment. They certainly give some employment.

I do not know if it would have much effect on the vote in this House if I went into the moral side of pictures as compared with the results of going to dog racing. Certainly the betting evil in this country is becoming very serious, and it is having a very bad moral effect. I do not know whether it will be advanced that there are other evils, other vices, developed by going to the pictures. I think the Minister should have seriously considered the amendment put in by Deputy Hogan. Perhaps he has. That amendment does not, in my opinion, ask for very much. The amendment would make up to a certain extent in the higher prices for any loss that might be incurred through the lower prices. I do not know what the losses would be. I am not sure whether the Minister mentioned on the Committee Stage what the loss would amount to. It does not appear to be very extensive. I would like to know, if Deputy Hogan's amendment were accepted and an entertainments tax was put on in connection with dog racing, whether the Minister would be at any loss or not.

There would be a loss of £40,000 by the adoption of Deputy Hogan's amendment.

One company interested in dog racing was able to make a clear profit of £18,000. What must be the receipts from that form of amusement and what would be the receipts to the Exchequer if they were to impose a tax? Perhaps the Minister could not answer that right off, but it is a question that might have been considered in conjuction with Deputy Hogan's amendment. I think the cinema proprietors and the public generally would not be very thankful to us to accept the amendment put in by the Minister, and I think the House should insist on having the amendment proposed by Deputy Hogan carried.

It is disappointing to find on this particular amendment that the Minister for Finance is not taking a more enlightened view of the matter. It is not purely a question of finance or the amount of money to be got in or not got in. From what Deputy Ryan has stated it is quite clear that a considerable amount of the loss could be made up on dog racing and a considerable amount also could be made up on dance halls. That matter was also discussed before, and we had some hope that an attempt would be made to adjust the thing from the educational point of view. In fact, the adjustment of the tax on cinemas could have been used in order to improve the standard of what the cinema shows. There is no doubt the cinema is one of the most educational forces you could have. There is nothing which impresses itself so much on the minds of the public, especially at the formative age, than the pictures shown in the cinemas. Although there is a certain control and check on the cinema, I submit it is defective in that it is only a negative control.

Some amendment of the Finance Act could have been moved in order to make sure that the cinemas would show certain types of pictures of an educational kind. Certain exemptions could be made if they showed a certain percentage of a particular kind of films. They might be used for advertising Irish industries and encouraging people to start industries, and they might be used for showing certain technical processes which are very interesting. They need not be long films, and films of a certain size could be regulated. Encouragement might be given to the development of films dealing with Irish historical subjects, and so on, and they could be endless from an educational point of view. It could be done through the Finance Act just as well as in any other way. A particular amendment here that has been adopted by the Minister for Finance is certainly not satisfactory to us, because we consider that as far as it goes it cannot go far enough from our point of view. Deputy Hogan's amendment is far more useful than that of the Minister.

I suggest to the Minister that if he does not accept Deputy Hogan's amendment in toto, he should accept it for the purpose of its application to cinemas that show at last fifty per cent. of films manufactured in Ireland.

That would be a valuable concession!

Will you make it ten per cent.?

I seriously suggest that is a thing that could be brought about. While I agree a considerable amount of revenue can be got from a tax on dog racing, the same concession should obtain with it as should obtain with the cinema, because dog-breeding is an Irish industry.

I have doubts as to the legality of this amendment. Am I right in saying that in the higher prices the tax will be greater if the amendment is carried than it is at present? If that is the case, then the amendment is out of order. Deputies are not allowed to propose further taxation.

Mr. HOGAN

I want to assure the Minister—the Deputy, possibly a potential Minister—that I do not transgress as seriously as he thinks. I have read the rules relating to debate and procedure here.

The amendment is in order.

The Deputy is endeavouring to increase taxation.

Mr. HOGAN

Where?

You are endeavouring to increase the rate of taxation.

Mr. HOGAN

I am not.

That was what I understood your part of the argument to be. I hope the Minister will take to heart what Deputy Ryan has said, as he is losing a great deal of money as things are at present.

Do I understand that the Deputy is recommending the Minister to go to the dogs?

Mr. HOGAN

I am not prepared to say that the Minister has not done something. I agree that he has made some gesture towards doing what I suggest, but if I understood him rightly, it is not that he thinks that some of the concessions which I ask him to make would cost too much, but that he has not had time to examine what they would cost.

Mr. HOGAN

Then I misunderstood the Minister. If this would cost only £3,000, would he tell us what it would cost if he exempted up to sixpence? I am sure that he would easily find some way to recompense himself for that. A few pence is a good deal to people who go to the fivepenny and sevenpenny seats in cinemas and, if the present system is maintained, they would have to deny themselves the few pleasures they have. There are sources of revenue which the Minister has not tapped. I do not suggest that he should go to the dogs. I suggest that he should go to the hoardings at the railway stations and tax the advertisements of foreign goods. It is one thing to put a tax on foreign goods coming into the country, and another thing to allow these centres to be used as show cases for them. While the Minister has not, in my opinion, done everything in the matter, I am satisfied that he has made a gesture towards meeting the case of the people in whom I am interested, namely, the very poor. I think, however, he should have gone the whole way and given us an increased exemption.

I would like the Minister to tell us what it would cost to make the exemption limit sixpence instead of fourpence.

About £10,000 or £11,000.

And what would be the cost in the case of the fourpence limit?

About £3,000.

That represents a difference of £8,000. It is in relation to that £8,000 that we are now concerned for the moment. I want to get back to something that was said here before when the question was raised concerning the direct economic line and connection between horse-racing, horse-breeding and human maintenance. We are in the extraordinary position that the one big concession of this kind made by the Minister for Finance has been made in relation to the entertainment tax on horse-racing. Though an appeal has been made, and a very honest inquiry has been made by responsible Deputies from the two principal parties in Opposition, to be told from some authoritative source how that is being translated into the maintenance of an Irish industry, and in what proportion money which goes to the maintenance of that Irish industry is being translated into the maintenance of men, no information of any sort or description has been vouchsafed. You are going to have exactly the same thing in relation to dog-racing after a while, and it will be exempted on the ground that a great national industry is being hit. I suggest that it is a responsibility on the Minister for Finance if that responsibility has not been discharged by those in favour of horse-racing. It is a responsibility of the Minister for Finance direct to give this House information which responsible Deputies in Opposition have asked for as to the connection with this matter.

If, in fact, it is not true that racing is essential to horse breeding, if, in fact, it is not true that horse breeding and the money which it absorbs to a large extent are transferred into the maintenance of man, there is no justification whatever for the removal of the entertainment tax on racing. The onus is on certain people in this House who apparently have been able to influence the Minister in this matter to answer that question, but they have not attempted to discharge that onus, and the Minister who has come here to do something on their recommendation has apparently declined to take over the responsibility which they have not discharged. I have made careful efforts to find out, but I do not know the connection, and I have not the slightest doubt that some percentage of money which is thrown down a grill contributes to the maintenace of horse racing. I have no doubt that some percentage of money spent in admission fees to race-courses does go to the maintenance of horse-breeding. But I do not know the percentage, nor has anyone attempted to give to this House the information which ought to be given to enable Deputies to decide whether on the ground put forward by the Minister he is entitled to make this exemption when he refuses to make other exemptions which are more important. If that £11,000 was still to be obtained from horse-racing there would be no difficulty in raising the figure from 4d. to 6d. or perhaps 8d. Until the Minister has discharged the obligation, or until those behind him who have been able to persuade him whether on financial or electoral grounds——

Industrial.

That remark comes from a Deputy who made the amazing discovery, which ought to be written in letters of gold over a lunatic asylum, that it was possible to spend £150 in registering a patent in England.

That is irrelevant.

No, it is lunatic.

I suggest that the speaker is entirely out of order.

Perhaps the Deputy has nothing more to say.

I could meet you on that point any time.

I am prepared to concede without hesitation that the Deputy's statement was true. The conditions under which it could be true are as follows——

Perhaps it would be better if the Deputy addressed the Chair.

Yes. The conditions under which the statement made by Deputy J.J. Byrne, an authority on industrial matters, could be true are these— (1) That the applicant shall be a congenital idiot in the free possession of money.

Will the Deputy explain what that has got to do with the amendment?

I think it has exactly as much to do with it as the interruption of the Deputy.

I am not concerned with the interruption, but I am concerned with Deputy Flinn's speech. I would prefer to hear him talking about the amendment than talking about Deputy J.J. Byrne or any other Deputy.

To get back to the point I raised——

It is nearly time.

If the Deputy would not interrupt so much I would be able to make my speech more brief. I am attempting, as everybody on this side does, to be as brief as possible. To come back to the point, we cannot relieve certain taxation because certain revenue is required, and because certain concessions have been made in other directions. The concession which has been made has been made for horse-racing on the pretence or the assumption, that it is a directly operative Irish producing industry; that it maintains men. I say that the responsibility rests upon the Minister for Finance or upon those behind him, whose testimony has influenced him in this matter, to give us the reasons for believing that assumption. These reasons have not been given, although they have been asked for in a sincere spirit of inquiry.

Are we discussing horse-racing or cinemas? Let us get down to bedrock.

We will be getting down to wood shortly.

Putty would be more like it.

I have suggested to the Minister that he should, instead of this highly-complicated system which is here and for which you cannot find any logical justification—if you plot this as a graph you will find no logical justification in the existing standards of taxation—that a flat rate or something approaching a flat rate should be applied. If, for instance, you were to say to one of these entertainment companies, "Twenty per cent. of your total proceeds will be taken," then they could regulate their rates in any way they liked, and my opinion is that they would regulate them at a lower figure. I got out from figures the other day what the actual experience was of an entertainment house which had high rates for all portions of the house, that is stalls, pit and gallery, and the amount paid in tax roughly then was 23 per cent. It reduced the rates, and it went up to 25 per cent. They reduced them then to the lowest possible limit, and it went up to 30 per cent. You have at the present moment an utterly illogical rate, and the difficulty is that people cannot arrange their rates in such a form as to give good commercial management or even a good return to the State. I am taking a definite case so that it would not be interfered with by the fact that one place might not be the same as another. You could get a case where there would be considerable reduction, where the total takings in the week would actually send up the amount of tax that is paid. In relation to the bigger houses—those are the houses which have a sort of good faith arrangement with the Excise, in which they take their figures and pay by cheque at the end of the week— there would be no difficulty in regard to a flat rate. I can see that there would be difficulties in regard to sporadic entertainments, but I suggest to the Minister that he should go into that to see whether it could not be arranged.

I come back to the question of the fourpenny and sixpenny charges. It is evidently quite hopeless to press him on the question of the shilling charge, but I do think that there is good reason to press him on the difference between fourpence and sixpence. I have said that there is a certain psychological necessity for entertainment for people under certain conditions, and in that connection I will tell you a remarkable story. There was a certain place in which there was a strike, and I happened to be in a position to know what had been the receipts of entertainment houses before the strike started. Immediately the strike started there was a slight falling off, a definite falling off, in the receipts of entertainment houses, and the anticipation was that that was merely the beginning of the falling off, and that the receipts would keep going down. To our surprise they did not. After a time they actually began to go up, and as the strike continued, though we knew the actual money for necessities would be running out, and we knew there were real hardships, yet the entertainment fund, if I might so term it, still kept up long past our anticipations.

There you have a very serious psychological reaction—people poor, borrowing, selling and pawning their goods—and yet in the cheaper portions of the house keeping up, almost miraculously, the entertainment expenditure. Then you came to the moment when the strike was settled and immediately the entertainments funds stopped. That is a very remarkable fact. I do not pretend to explain it with any degree of accuracy, but during that hardship time, especially in the poorer portions of the house, people apparently did find that they were getting value in entertainment, though when they came to the time when they began to earn money again and began to pay back debts and things of that kind, they immediately cut it off. I am suggesting that to the Minister as an argument he should consider in relation to the psychological effect of restricting entertainment amongst poorer people. I would ask the Minister when he is replying to tell us whether he can give to the House a logical and reasonable explanation of the connection between the expenditure by people of this country on the upkeep of horse racing by betting and otherwise, and how that is translated into industrial and material benefit in this country. I would ask him also very seriously to consider whether he could not push that fourpence up to sixpence. Sixpence is the real hardship limit in my opinion. When you come to a shilling there may be some luxury in it. If you take the case of fourpence at present and make it sixpence, three-half-pence is going to the State. You are getting into another nasty watertight compartment. I am suggesting seriously on social grounds the consideration by the Minister of a complete exemption from fourpence to sixpence.

I have not anything to add to what I said at the beginning. I think Deputy Flinn was not in then, but I referred to his suggestion with reference to a flat rate, and pointed out that there was a great deal to be said for it, and that the real question was whether the difficulties which exist, not merely in regard to sporadic entertainments, but also in regard to payments by houses which cannot be trusted—and there are several of these—could be overcome. I have said all that I wish to say with reference to horse-racing, and I will not undertake to enter on it again. With reference to the suggestion that more should be given, it might be possible in another year to give more. It might be possible to find a means of giving certain additional concessions to the lower seats without losing entertainments duty, but in order to do that very great care would have to be given to a revision of the scale and, perhaps, bringing within the scope of the entertainments duty certain entertainments which are exempted at present.

I am satisfied that not more than the sum I mentioned—£6,000 or £7,000— would be obtained from dog-racing. The Revenue Commissioners had certain returns before them, and had fairly good information on which to base an estimate, and I am satisfied that that estimate is correct. If new greyhound racecourses were started in a number of centres through the country during the present year perhaps the estimate for next year might be much larger, but for the present year I think the estimate is accurate. I have already stated that I do not see that it is possible to give any further concession than is proposed by the amendment on the Paper. That particular amendment will undoubtedly make the cheapest seats cheaper in a good number of picture theatres, and will to that extent give an easement to the poorer section of the community. I could not undertake to do more in the circumstances.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 45; Níl, 67.

  • Frank Aiken.
  • Denis Allen.
  • Richard Anthony.
  • Neil Blaney.
  • Gerald Boland.
  • Patrick Boland.
  • Daniel Bourke.
  • Seán Brady.
  • Robert Briscoe.
  • Daniel Buckley.
  • James Colbert.
  • Eamon Cooney.
  • Dan. Corkery.
  • Martin John Corry.
  • Tadhg Crowley.
  • Thomas Derrig.
  • Eamon de Valera.
  • Frank Fahy.
  • Hugo Flinn.
  • Andrew Fogarty.
  • Seán French.
  • Patrick Hogan (Clare).
  • Samuel Holt.
  • Patrick Houlihan.
  • Michael Joseph Kennedy.
  • William R. Kent.
  • James Joseph Killane.
  • Mark Killilea.
  • Michael Kilroy.
  • Seán F. Lemass.
  • Patrick John Little.
  • Ben. Maguire.
  • Thomas McEllistrim.
  • Seán MacEntee.
  • Séamus Moore.
  • Thomas J. O'Connell.
  • Patrick Joseph O'Dowd.
  • Seán T. O'Kelly.
  • Matthew O'Reilly.
  • Thomas O'Reilly.
  • William Archer Redmond.
  • James Ryan.
  • Martin Sexton.
  • Patrick Smith.
  • Richard Walsh.

Níl

  • William P. Aird.
  • Ernest Henry Alton.
  • James Walter Beckett.
  • George Cecil Bennett.
  • Ernest Blythe.
  • Séamus A. Bourke.
  • Seán Brodrick.
  • John Joseph Byrne.
  • Edmund Carey.
  • John James Cole.
  • Mrs. Margaret Collins-O'Driscoll.
  • Martin Conlon.
  • Michael P. Connolly.
  • Bryan Ricco Cooper.
  • William T. Cosgrave.
  • John Daly.
  • Michael Davis.
  • Peter de Loughrey.
  • Eugene Doherty.
  • James N. Dolan.
  • Peadar Seán Doyle.
  • Edmund John Duggan.
  • Barry M. Egan.
  • Osmond Thomas Grattan Esmonde.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • James Fitzgerald-Kenney.
  • John Good.
  • Dermot Gun O'Mahony.
  • John J. O'Reilly.
  • Gearoid O'Sullivan.
  • John Marcus O'Sullivan.
  • Vincent Rice.
  • Martin Roddy.
  • Timothy Sheehy (West Cork).
  • Denis J. Gorey.
  • John J. Hassett.
  • Michael R. Heffernan.
  • Michael Joseph Hennessy.
  • Thomas Hennessy.
  • John Hennigan.
  • Mark Henry.
  • Patrick Hogan (Galway).
  • Richard Holohan.
  • Michael Jordan.
  • Patrick Michael Kelly.
  • Myles Keogh.
  • Hugh Alexander Law.
  • Patrick Leonard.
  • Finian Lynch.
  • Arthur Patrick Mathews.
  • Martin McDonogh.
  • Michael Og McFadden.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Joseph W. Mongan.
  • Richard Mulcahy.
  • James Sproule Myles.
  • Martin Michael Nally.
  • John Thomas Nolan.
  • Bartholomew O'Connor.
  • Timothy Joseph O'Donovan.
  • Daniel O'Leary.
  • William Edward Thrift.
  • Michael Tierney.
  • Daniel Vaughan.
  • Vincent Joseph White.
  • George Wolfe.
  • Jasper Travers Wolfe.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies P. Hogan (Clare) and G. Boland. Níl: Deputies Duggan and P. S. Doyle.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment 4:—

In page 10, line 42, before Section 23, to insert a new section as follows:—

"Entertainments duty shall not be chargeable or leviable under Section 1 of the Finance (New Duties) Act, 1916, as amended by subsequent enactments on any payment for admission to an entertainment which does not exceed fourpence."

I do not know whether there is a desire on the part of the House to accept this amendment or not. I move it at any rate.

Question put, and agreed to.

I beg to move amendment 5:—

In page 10, line 47, to delete all words after the word "races" to the end of line 51.

With regard to this particular amendment I have adopted the Minister's suggestion as to its form. I do not know whether there is any need to argue it, as he said he would leave it to a free vote of the House, and I have no doubt what the result will be. I ask the Minister, in view of the number of divisions we have had. whether it is worth while to have another division on this. He has said himself that there is no appreciable amount of money involved in the matter, and it is scarcely worth the trouble of collecting. I appeal to him seriously on the part of a great many towns and village committees who get up race meetings for various purposes in connection with town improvements of one kind or another, and are put to a great deal of trouble and inconvenience in making arrangements in connection with the collection of the tax and fulfilling obligations where there is an entry fee charged, to accept the amendment and save us the trouble of another division.

I shall accept the Chairman's decision after putting the question.

Question put.

I think the amendment is carried.

Division.

Mr. O'CONNELL

I understand that there is some misunderstanding. Some Deputies wish that those who said "Níl" when the question was put should have their names recorded, but they do not want a division.

They definitely called for a division. Deputy Lemass called for a division. If he has walked into it it is his own look-out.

I do not think it is right to discuss this matter now, but I gave it very clearly as my opinion that the amendment was carried, but Deputy Lemass called for a division, and the Chair ordered a division.

Before you put the question, might I call your attention to Standing Order 56? I think there has been a slight misunderstanding.

DEPUTIES

Order, order.

I will not hear anybody at this stage.

I am calling your attention——

DEPUTIES

Order, order.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 48; Níl, 66.

  • Frank Aiken.
  • Denis Allen.
  • Ernest Henry Alton.
  • Richard Anthony.
  • Neil Blaney.
  • Gerald Boland.
  • Patrick Boland.
  • Daniel Bourke.
  • Seán Brady.
  • Robert Briscoe.
  • Daniel Buckley.
  • James Colbert.
  • John James Cole.
  • Eamon Cooney.
  • Dan. Corkery.
  • Martin John Corry.
  • Tadhg Crowley.
  • Thomas Derrig.
  • Eamon de Valera.
  • Frank Fahy.
  • Hugo Flinn.
  • Andrew Fogarty.
  • Seán French.
  • Patrick Hogan (Clare).
  • Samuel Holt.
  • Patrick Houlihan.
  • Michael Joseph Kennedy.
  • William R. Kent.
  • James Joseph Killane.
  • Mark Killilea.
  • Michael Kilroy.
  • Seán F. Lemass.
  • Patrick John Little.
  • Ben. Maguire.
  • Thomas McEllistrim.
  • Seán MacEntee.
  • Séamus Moore.
  • Thomas J. O'Connell.
  • Patrick Joseph O'Dowd.
  • Seán T. O'Kelly.
  • Matthew O'Reilly.
  • Thomas O'Reilly.
  • William Archer Redmond.
  • James Ryan.
  • Martin Sexton.
  • Patrick Smith.
  • Richard Walsh.
  • Francis C. Ward.

Níl

  • William P. Aird.
  • James Walter Beckett.
  • George Cecil Bennett.
  • Ernest Blythe.
  • Séamus A. Bourke.
  • Seán Brodrick.
  • Alfred Byrne.
  • John Joseph Byrne.
  • Edmund Carey.
  • Mrs. Margaret Collins-O'Driscoll.
  • Martin Conlon.
  • Michael P. Connolly.
  • Bryan Ricco Cooper.
  • William T. Cosgrave.
  • John Daly.
  • Michael Davis.
  • Peter de Loughrey.
  • Eugene Doherty.
  • James N. Dolan.
  • Peadar Seán Doyle.
  • Edmund John Duggan.
  • Barry M. Egan.
  • Osmond Thomas Grattan Esmonde.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • James Fitzgerald-Kenney.
  • John Good.
  • Denis J. Gorey.
  • John J. Hassett.
  • Michael R. Heffernan.
  • Michael Joseph Hennessy.
  • Thomas Hennessy.
  • John Hennigan.
  • Mark Henry.
  • Patrick Hogan (Galway).
  • Richard Holohan.
  • Michael Jordan.
  • Patrick Michael Kelly.
  • Myles Keogh.
  • Hugh Alexander Law.
  • Patrick Leonard.
  • Finian Lynch.
  • Arthur Patrick Mathews.
  • Martin McDonogh.
  • Michael Og McFadden.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Joseph W. Mongan.
  • Richard Mulcahy.
  • James Sproule Myles.
  • Martin Michael Nally.
  • John Thomas Nolan.
  • Bartholomew O'Connor.
  • Timothy Joseph O'Donovan.
  • Daniel O'Leary.
  • Dermot Gun O'Mahony.
  • John J. O'Reilly.
  • Gearoid O'Sullivan.
  • John Marcus O'Sullivan.
  • Vincent Rice.
  • Martin Roddy.
  • Timothy Sheehy (West Cork).
  • William Edward Thrift.
  • Michael Tierney.
  • Daniel Vaughan.
  • Vincent Joseph White.
  • George Wolfe.
  • Jasper Travers Wolfe.
Tellers—Tá: Deputies Anthony and T. O'Connell. Níl: Deputies Duggan and P. S. Doyle.
Amendment declared lost.

Arising out of the result of the Division, I was bringing to the notice of the Chair a point of order which related to the Division, and you refused to hear me. I submit that when a Deputy makes a point of order which is relevant to the business then in progress, you are not entitled to rule him out of order until you hear the point he makes. The point I was about to make was this: I was calling your attention to Standing Order 56, which confers on you the discretion where, for one reason or another, it seems that a large section of the House does not wish to proceed to a Division —shall I read the Standing Order?

Some Deputies may not.

I have not a copy of the Standing Orders here, but I would like to take an intelligent interest in the discussion. I would be very glad if you permitted Deputy MacEntee to read the Standing Order.

A point of order is a matter for the Chair, and it has to be decided by the Chair.

After hearing the Deputy I was about to explain that a Division had been called under a misapprehension, and I was going to ask you whether it would not be just in the circumstances that you should exercise the discretion which you have under Standing Order 56 of not proceeding to a Division, asking the House again simply verbally to express its opinion on this matter, and if you cared to repeat verbally the decision which you had given previously——

The Deputy is out of order in raising this point of order, especially after the question was put. I put the matter clearly from the Chair, and I said that in my opinion the amendment was carried.

We did not hear you. Certainly I did not hear you.

Someone heard and called for a Division.

A Division was called. I ordered a Division, and that is the end of it.

I move:—

In page 10, line 52, before Section 24, to insert a new section as follows:—

Entertainments duty within the meaning of Section 1 of the Finance (New Duties) Act, 1916, shall not be charged or levied on payments for admission to any entertainment provided by the Council of Aonach Tailteann if it is shown to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners that the entertainment is held in immediate connection with Aonach Tailteann and solely for the benefit thereof.

This is to meet a point raised by Deputy Thrift.

I think that is quite satisfactory.

Amendment put, and agreed to.

I move:—

In page 10, line 52, before Section 24, to insert a new section as follows:—

An entertainment provided by a society which is established solely for the purpose of promoting the interest of the industry of agriculture or some branch thereof shall not be excluded from the exemption given by Section 7 of the Finance Act, 1921, solely by reason of the inclusion in the entertainment of any item which is not part of an exhibition of the kind specified in paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) of the said Section 7, if such item is shown to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners to be included in the entertainment merely as a subsidiary part thereof.

This is to carry out an undertaking given on the Committee Stage with regard to the exemption of agricultural shows from entertainment tax, where there are subsidiary entertainments connected with them.

Amendment put, and agreed to.

Mr. O'CONNELL

On behalf of Deputy Davin, I move:—

In page 12, line 20, before Section 29, to insert a new section as follows:—

"Sub-section (2) of Section 38 of the Finance Act, 1926, shall be amended by the deletion of the words `less than three pounds and is' from the exemption given by that sub-section."

This amendment has relation to the charge for stamps on weekly wages. This matter was raised here on several occasions, and in 1926, I think, the Minister gave way to this extent, that on any sums less than £2 he is not now charging stamp duty, but it is still considered a hardship that those civil servants who get their wages weekly, who are mainly engaged in the Post Office, have to pay for a 2d. stamp each week. Such a deduction is not made in the case of any wage-earners, except those employed by the State, and I would ask the Minister to grant this concession.

A certain concession was given, exempting up to £3, in the Finance Act of 1926, and we felt that that met the cases in which there was any hardship. The effect of this amendment would not merely be to relieve the weekly wage-earner, but also to relieve people who are paid monthly, or at other intervals. If this concession were given it would mean a fairly substantial cost, and I do not think that the benefit would really be appreciable or equal. Post Office stamps are used, and consequently it is very difficult to form an estimate of the exact amount involved, but various methods of calculation have been adopted. The cost of this would not be less than £7,000 or £8,000, and might easily be as much as £15,000, £16,000, or even £17,000. It certainly is not less than the lower figure I have mentioned. Consequently, while, as I said in previous years, I had a good deal of sympathy with the lower wage-earners who had to pay this weekly twopence, I think we met the case of those who felt it most by raising the limit to £3. So far as weekly wage-earners are concerned, most of them are undoubtedly Government employees, and as Government employees they have certain advantages over the employees of private firms. They have in most cases greater security, constant work, and they have certain other advantages. As the amendment stands, it would of course extend beyond them to large numbers of people whose wages are paid monthly, fortnightly, or at longer intervals than one week, and the loss would be appreciable. In the present circumstances I regret that I cannot see my way to accept the amendment.

I regret to say that we on these benches cannot see our way to support the amendment, because we feel that it would give relief to a very much wider class of people than Deputy Davin anticipated, that it would extend to officials and wage-earners who are in receipt of very large incomes indeed. In any event, even on the smallest wage-earner the tax which it imposes is not very great. I think the maximum amount is something like 8/8 on an income of £156. On general principles I would be inclined to say that it would be a good thing if some system of direct taxation, if possible an equitable one, were imposed upon the people. It would also have the advantage that everyone under such a system would feel that he was bearing some portion of the Governmental expenditure. It would associate him with the cost of Government in a way that no system of indirect taxation would do, and even this, small as it is, is a form of taxation that is a step in the right direction, granted, of course, that direct taxation may be expensive to collect. It has the very considerable advantage that it makes the ordinary citizen examine very much more closely and very much more keenly the manner in which public moneys are expended by the Government. It makes him feel that he has some direct and personal association with the financial policy of the Government, and it makes him keener to curb wasteful and extravagant expenditure. It makes him realise in a way that a tax upon tea or sugar, or any other necessary of life—an indirect tax—will not, that after all the taxpayer is the man who pays the piper, and consequently he should see that the tune that is being played will be to his liking.

Would the Deputy advocate that that should be extended to other workers than those in the Post Office and in the Civil Service? Is that what the Deputy is arguing?

My argument is not that this particular tax should be extended, but that it would be desirable that a system of direct taxation as a whole, which would associate every individual taxpayer directly with the National Exchequer, should be evolved.

For the wage-earner?

Because of the fact that direct taxation is sometimes costly to collect, the expense of collection may be out of proportion to the amount collected, and I am not so certain that it is possible to do that, but I would like to see it done. The special ground of our opposition in this connection is that we do not think that there is any hardship imposed by this tax of 8s. 8d. upon people who have a minimum income of £156 per year.

There is a saying that it is not the size of the stage that makes the actor, and it seems that upon rather a small issue, one very narrow peg, Deputy MacEntee has raised a question which is fundamental. We are accustomed to be taught—very fallaciously taught—by publicists in this and in other countries that indirect taxes fall more heavily upon one part of the community, and that direct taxes fall more heavily upon another, and I am not at all sure that that system of education in a complete economic fallacy is accidental. I think it is part of a carefully-thought-out and organised scheme of things by which the machine of Government enables itself to extract from the community the maximum amount of its produce with the least amount of grumbling.

There is an idea that, if the working classes can be persuaded that direct tax, income tax, for instance, is only paid by the rich, by those who roll along in beautiful motor cars, with their sunlit gardens, who own expensive establishments and keep up expensive homes, that there would be so much less opposition to the collecting of such taxes. That propaganda has been very ably and very excellently worked, and has been very effective in its results. The people, especially the poorer people, have been educated into the belief that the taxes that are paid by the rich do not concern them, except that they benefit. They have been educated into the belief that income tax, and taxes of that kind, do not concern them. I mean we have actually reached the stage where working-class people are persuaded by their misguided leaders actually to encourage the imposition of such taxation. The effect is, that the consciousness of public opinion being withdrawn from the fact that all the cost comes out of production in the end, the machine is allowed to get away with a proportion of the total production of the State which, under any intelligent system or with any clear understanding of the facts, it would not be allowed to get away with. It is clearly to the interest of indirect taxpayers to reduce, as much as possible, the unnecessary imposition of direct taxes upon those who pay direct taxes, and it is directly to the interest of the direct taxpayer to reduce in every possible way the burden of indirect taxation which is imposed upon the indirect taxpayer. The scheme of driving these two people into opposite camps, into persuading them that the indirect taxpayer has an actual interest almost in the increase of direct taxation——

Perhaps the Deputy would now come to the amendment.

I will in about one more sentence.

I think I have allowed the Deputy to go a long way from the amendment.

The point which Deputy MacEntee raised was, that this was a direct tax, and to that extent deserved a certain amount of passing encouragement. He took the point that if direct taxation did consciously filter down so that the payment of direct taxation should consciously be ever present in the mind of the ordinary voter, that voter would have a much more direct interest in the Government of the State, in keeping down the expenditure of the State, and in curbing the wastefulness of the expenditure of the State. I think that point is very soundly taken. I was over in Germany shortly after the war when people were very, very poor indeed, when wages rates were of a character we do not want to contemplate in this country, and yet they were paying direct taxation.

The Deputy will have to deal with the stamp duty.

In so far as this stamp duty is a recognition of the principle that everybody in the State should as far as possible be made consciously aware of the extent of the tax he pays, to that extent it is a good tax.

The difference between this tax and another tax which might be substituted in its place is the difference between the preference a person might have between being boiled in oil or fried in butter. Our attitude is that we prefer whichever system is the more painful, for it will bring home more quickly to the minds of the people what they have got to do is to get down to the root of the thing and reduce expenditure, and for that reason the more the machine runs with friction, and the more people feel the payment of taxes, the sooner they will come to realise it is in their own hands to change the whole system.

resumed the Chair.

Amendment put
The Dáil divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 109.

  • Richard Anthony.
  • James Coburn.
  • Patrick Hogan (Clare).
  • Daniel Morrissey.
  • Thomas J. O'Connell.

Níl

  • Frank Aiken.
  • William P. Aird.
  • Denis Allen.
  • Ernest Henry Alton.
  • James Walter Beckett.
  • George Cecil Bennett.
  • Neil Blaney.
  • Ernest Blythe.
  • Gerald Boland.
  • Patrick Boland.
  • Daniel Bourke.
  • Séamus A. Bourke.
  • Seán Brady.
  • Robert Briscoe.
  • Seán Brodrick.
  • Daniel Buckley.
  • Alfred Byrne.
  • John Joseph Byrne.
  • Edmund Carey.
  • James Colbert.
  • John James Cole.
  • Mrs. Margaret Collins-O'Driscoll.
  • Martin Conlon.
  • Michael P. Connolly.
  • Eamon Cooney.
  • Bryan Ricco Cooper.
  • Dan. Corkery.
  • Martin John Corry.
  • William T. Cosgrave.
  • Sir James Craig.
  • Tadhg Crowley.
  • John Daly.
  • Michael Davis.
  • Peter de Loughrey.
  • Thomas Derrig.
  • Eamon de Valera.
  • Arthur Patrick Mathews.
  • Martin McDonogh.
  • Thomas McEllistrim.
  • Seán MacEntee.
  • Michael Og McFadden.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Joseph W. Mongan.
  • Séamus Moore.
  • Richard Mulcahy.
  • Thomas Mullins.
  • James Sproule Myles.
  • Martin Michael Nally.
  • John Thomas Nolan.
  • Bartholomew O'Connor.
  • Timothy Joseph O'Donovan.
  • Patrick Joseph O'Dowd.
  • Daniel O'Leary.
  • Dermot Gun O'Mahony.
  • John J. O'Reilly.
  • Eugene Doherty.
  • James N. Dolan.
  • Peadar Seán Doyle.
  • Edmund John Duggan.
  • Osmond Thomas Grattan Esmonde.
  • Frank Fahy.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • James Fitzgerald-Kenney.
  • Hugo Flinn.
  • Andrew Fogarty.
  • Seán French.
  • John Good.
  • Denis J. Gorey.
  • John J. Hassett.
  • Michael R. Heffernan.
  • Michael Joseph Hennessy.
  • Thomas Hennessy.
  • John Hennigan.
  • Mark Henry.
  • Patrick Hogan (Galway).
  • Richard Holohan.
  • Samuel Holt.
  • Patrick Houlihan.
  • Michael Jordan.
  • Patrick Michael Kelly.
  • Michael Joseph Kennedy.
  • William R. Kent.
  • Myles Keogh.
  • James Joseph Killane.
  • Mark Killilea.
  • Michael Kilroy.
  • Hugh Alexander Law.
  • Seán F. Lemass.
  • Patrick John Little.
  • Finian Lynch.
  • Ben. Maguire.
  • Matthew O'Reilly.
  • Thomas O'Reilly.
  • Gearoid O'Sullivan.
  • John Marcus O'Sullivan.
  • Vincent Rice.
  • Martin Roddy.
  • James Ryan.
  • Martin Sexton.
  • Timothy Sheehy (West Cork).
  • Patrick Smith.
  • William Edward Thrift.
  • Michael Tierney.
  • Daniel Vaughan.
  • Richard Walsh.
  • Francis C. Ward.
  • Vincent Joseph White.
  • George Wolfe.
  • Jasper Travers Wolfe.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár) and Anthony. Níl: Deputies Duggan and Peadar Doyle. Amendment declared lost.
Question: "That the Bill, as amended, be received for final consideration," put.

I presume at this stage we would be entitled to discuss the principle of the Bill as amended in Committee?

The contents of the Bill.

On general grounds our opposition to this Bill remains as we expressed it on the Second Stage. We feel that the burden of taxation which it imposes upon the whole community is still excessive. As I remarked in the debate on the Second Reading, I think we are the most heavily taxed country in Europe. I feel that the Government during the progress of this Bill during Committee did nothing that would substantially lighten the burden upon the general taxpayer. It is true that in relation to the income tax they saw their way to accept certain modifications in principle, modifications which we suggested, and they promised to make them the subject of an investigation by a Departmental Committee. Unfortunately they have not been able to accept and embody those very useful suggestions in the measure in Committee. We feel that the present position of the country and the tax-paying community is such that unless some very significant alleviation of the burdens imposed upon them is granted, that industry will be unable to thrive, will be unable, in fact, to survive, and that next year the financial position of the State will be much worse than it is this year, bad and all as it has been.

We feel also that the whole question of the incidence and manner of taxation ought to be seriously investigated by the Government. In discussing the amendment which was moved by Deputy Davin, I suggested that some consideration should be given to the problem of associating the taxpayer more directly with expenditure. It is true, of course, that the present association, very much to the disadvantage of the taxpayer, is a very close one. But it is an unconscious one. The person who buys tobacco, the person who buys beer or stout, the person who buys chocolate or sugar buys these things without a full consciousness of the fact that in the price which he pays for a particular commodity, he pays one proportion to the man who produces or manufactures the article, and he pays another moiety of that price to the Government. He is, in many cases, as I said, not consciously aware of the fact that when purchasing the article he is at the same time paying taxation. I think this general statement is true—I have not at the moment at hand the figures with which I could substantiate it—that the proportion of taxation which is paid directly in this State to the proportion of taxation which is paid indirectly, is the second or third lowest in Europe. No other State whose financial system approximates at all to ours imposes so little taxation directly upon the people. As Deputy Flinn pointed out in his speech on amendment 8, that is not advantageous, because it leaves the ordinary indirect payer of taxation under the impression —or the belief has been fostered and inculcated in the person who pays taxes indirectly—that the sole moiety of taxation which is paid by the poorer classes who are in the main exempt from direct taxation is that portion which is collected indirectly. It makes them generally believe that the more taxation that is imposed directly the greater the burden the richer classes in the community have to pay. I am anxious, and we on these benches are anxious, that the taxpayer should be associated directly with the payment of taxes, because we feel that if it is brought consciously home to him that he is the person who has ultimately to bear the cost of Government he will discharge his duties as a citizen with much more circumspection, and, certainly, with a great deal more attention than at the present moment. We feel that he will look more carefully after the millions which the custodians of the public purse have at their disposal to expend——

I beg to draw attention to the fact that there is not a quorum present.

When a quorum is not present, under the Standing Orders the bell must be rung.

Was there not an agreement entered into between the Whips of both parties that during the tea hour the matter of a quorum would not be insisted on, and that your attention would not be drawn to it?

This is not the tea hour.

We have had many divisions to-day, and some of the Deputies did not get a chance of getting a cup of tea.

I am certainly not aware of any such agreement.

There is no such agreement.

In any event, with reference to the point Deputy Byrne's making——

The Deputy need not discuss that particular point now.

House counted, and twenty Deputies being present,

Deputy MacEntee may resume his speech.

As I was going to remark, A Chinn Comhairle, when you asked me not to reply to the points made by Deputy A. Byrne, that there was some sort of arrangement between the Whips whereby during the tea hour no count-out of the House would take place, I would like to remind the Deputy that those who were in the Chamber and endeavouring to——

That is quite irrelevant now to the Fourth Stage of the Finance Bill. The point Deputy Byrne raised has been settled. That is all about it.

Except this—I wish to point out that if what I have to say is not as interesting as it would otherwise be that is due to the fact that those who are endeavouring to carry on the business of this House have not the advantage of being able to adjourn for tea when the ordinary demands of physique call upon them to do so.

Give it up.

I was just saying that we were in favour of associating the taxpayer more directly with the collection of the taxes—more directly with the payment of the taxes. I think I remarked that at the present moment the proportion of taxation which is assessed and collected directly from the taxpayer is less in the Saorstát than it is in practically every other country in Europe. There are one or two countries—France and Italy—where the proportion of the direct to indirect taxation is possibly lower than it is here. But in Germany, Great Britain, Norway, Sweden and, I think, in Spain, the proportion of direct to indirect taxation is higher than here. I think that that is a good thing. As I said before, it makes the taxpayer more keenly aware of the fact that the money which is collected from him is taken out of the fruit of his labour, whether he is a worker and employed or whether he is an employer and also a worker. I do not wish at all to endeavour to propagate the fallacy that an employer cannot be a worker. An employer necessarily must be a worker. The only difference between——

For the Lord's sake, stop it.

An employer must be a worker. An employer has great responsibilities, and, because an employer pays direct taxation, he often-times feels that because he pays that taxation directly, any increase in taxation imposed in that manner falls upon him and presses upon him more heavily than upon those who are in his employment. In actual fact, taxation which is imposed directly falls not upon the upper classes, not upon the rich, not upon the wealthy, but ultimately is collected from the poor because ultimately it is collected from those who are the primary producers. When income-tax is imposed upon a whole industrial system, upon every competitor in any industrial system, upon one class of producers as a whole, that class of producers, when it comes to selling the products of its industry and to seek that price for it which will return to it not only the actual cost of production, but also the actual profit which is necessary to enable those producers to live and their industry to expand, naturally fixes the price of the product with some advertence to the over-head charges and the cost of production.

I would like if the Deputy adverted to the Finance Bill now.

I am endeavouring to make the point, to establish the case, that the principle of this Bill is wrong.

That is a case which could be argued on Second Reading. The Bill is now at a stage where no further amendment, except a verbal amendment, is possible and the debate, of course, is restricted to what is actually in the Bill. Objection to the Bill may be taken, but not on the ground of what it does not contain.

In that event I presume I shall have to take the Bill as amended in Committee and deal with those particular sections of it which embody the objectionable features that we find in the Bill, or which fail to embody those principles which we consider desirable. In the discussion in Committee on Section 1 of the Bill we introduced some amendments embodying a principle to which my friend Deputy Flinn has given the title "the principle of discrimination," a very useful principle that, when taxation is imposed by our Government, it should be of such a nature as would discriminate in favour of Irish industry and Irish enterprise as compared with external enterprise and external industry. We did not put down any formal amendment relating to that on the Order Paper for the Report Stage of the Bill, but we think we can, with advantage, carry the discussion of that particular principle a stage further.

That principle is not embodied in the Bill. The Deputy is simply endeavouring to repeat the arguments used in connection with amendments while in Committee. These arguments failed to convince, and the amendments were not, in fact, embodied in the Bill. The Deputy cannot traverse the ground covered on the whole Committee Stage again, and he must confine himself to the general principles of the Bill as he finds it now.

I am criticising the Bill on the grounds that it does not embody this very desirable principle.

That was possible on Second Stage, but not on the Report Stage. On the Second Reading Deputies can object to the Bill on the grounds that it does not contain certain principles, and they can later put forward amendments which can be considered in Committee, but at this stage no further amendment is possible —no amendment of any substance—and the Deputy cannot repeat the kind of speech that could be made on the Second Reading or in Committee.

I do not propose exactly to repeat a speech which could be made on the Second Reading or in Committee. I remember the Minister for Finance, who at the moment is not here, was good enough to say that he would like to consider further certain principles of taxation which we suggested to him. One of the objections he had to a certain proposal of ours was that there were certain industries which are well-established and which make good progress. In regard to these there is no difficulty in obtaining further capital if it should be needed for the purposes of extension. These industrious people do now suffer from the difficulties which this amendment sets out here.

The Deputy is precluded from discussing amendments and new principles. He must confine himself to the Bill.

And the contents of the Bill?

To the Bill as amended? Am I entitled, in stating the reasons why I desire this Bill to be rejected, to show that the Bill as a whole, because it does not conform with certain ideas we have in regard to taxation, is not a good Bill, and should not be accepted?

I think that that particular type of argument is late at this stage. It would be relevant on Second Reading.

I respectfully submit that a Bill which emerges from Committee may be a different Bill to that dealt with in Committee, that it has been so amended that even the principle of the Bill, the operative principle, may have been changed.

That would be impossible, that the principle of a Bill would be so altered. It could not be altered in Committee.

Then, shall I say, the machinery whereby it was sought to make the principle of the Bill operative was altered in Committee? For instance, you could have the case of a Bill in which a certain Committee was to perform a certain legislative function, that the function might remain, just as in relation to this Bill the purpose of the Bill is to impose and collect taxation in a certain way. The fundamental principle is the collection of taxation. The machinery which makes that principle operative is the machinery which we have considered in Committee, and which in certain respects we have altered or amended, possibly for better, possibly for worse. I think what we are entitled to consider at this Stage is whether the Bill, as a whole as amended, not any particular amendment of it, is a good Bill. I agree with the principle of the Bill. I agree that, as the cost of Government must be defrayed, taxation must be collected, but I feel that the means whereby it is proposed under this Bill to collect taxation are not the best that could be adopted. I believe that they are not the means by which the least damage, if I may say so, will be done to Irish industries. I feel that, in fact, there are certain things in this Bill which are disadvantageous to Irish industries.

There is, for instance, the fact that under Section 1 of the Bill income tax is being imposed at a rate of 3/- in the £, that is to say, at a rate substantially below that at which a similar tax is imposed in Great Britain. As I pointed out in the Committee Stage, the effect of that situation has not been seriously considered by the Minister for Finance. It, of course, appeals to people who live in this country and who draw unearned income to be told that they are paying income tax at a rate which is 25 per cent. below that paid in Great Britain, but the reactions of that tax upon the Irish investor have not, I think, been seriously taken into account by the Government. As I endeavoured to show, the very fact that income tax in Ireland upon unearned income is 25 per cent, below that in England makes investment in English enterprises so much more attractive to the Irish resident who pays income tax than to the English income tax payer resident in England as to entice Irish capital to seek investment in England. One of the things I should like to see embodied in this Bill was the principle of discrimination to which Deputy Flinn referred.

The Deputy cannot refer to that, as it was not included in the Bill.

I am expressing the wish that it had been included in the Bill. I believe, indeed, that if that principle had been included one of our main objections to the Bill would have disappeared, but I would like to consider the effect of Sections 1, 2, 3 and 4—every section, in fact, which relates to collection or which imposes income tax or sur-tax. They are all of the same tendency, as I said before, to encourage Irish capital to seek investment in English enterprise. One of the economic problems which we as a State have to face is the tendency of industries, profitable, well-established industries, here to pass out of the control of citizens of this country and into the control of those who are not citizens. That tendency is aggravated in a marked degree by such taxes as are imposed by Sections 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 of this Bill—in fact, every tax which partakes of the nature of a tariff upon imports, every tax which is imposed as a protective tariff to protect Irish enterprise. We frankly admit all these facts. We have never denied the fact that every tax of that description tends to aggravate that tendency to which I refer, namely, to take the control of profitable, well-managed Irish enterprises out of the control of citizens of the Saorstát.

We have many examples of that. There was a tax imposed on chocolates and sugar confectionery. That tax has been productive. I believe, of a great deal of good. It has created a con-but one of the effects of it, as of all siderable amount of employment here, protective tariffs, one of the disadvantages of these tariffs which we are anxious to secure the State against, and one of the dangers has been that, particularly in the case of chocolates and sugar - confectionery, manufacturing enterprise in this State has passed out of Irish control. I may, in fact, say that all the undertakings which we had, Williams and Woods, the Savoy Confectionery Company, N.K.M.—every one of them with the solitary exception, I believe, of the Urney Company, has been absorbed by greater enterprises across the Channel. We felt that if the Minister for Finance had accepted the principle which we urged on him, one of the things he would have done would have checked that tendency, because discrimination in favour of the native income tax payer would have ensured that an investment in profitable Irish manufacturing enterprise would always yield a greater return to citizens and residents of this State than to those who are not citizens or residents here. That is one of the important effects of that proposal of ours to allow a deduction of 20 per cent. from all unearned income derived from investment in Irish enterprise before fixing the assessable income.

I want to read for the Deputy Standing Order 46:—

A Deputy who persists in irrelevance or repetition in debate and who, in the opinion of the Ceann Comhairle or the Chairman, is speaking for the purpose of obstructing business, may be directed by the Ceann Comhairle or the Chairman to discontinue his speech after the attention of the Dáil or of the Committee has been called to his conduct.

I do not now propose to call the attention of the Dáil to the Deputy's conduct, but I suggest that he is persisting in irrelevancy.

I desire to be strictly relevant, but this is the last opportunity we shall have——

—of considering the Finance Bill before it becomes a Finance Act.

It is the second last opportunity.

On the Fifth Stage. I shall have to confine myself to the title of the Bill.

I cannot discuss the contents of the measure.

My objection to the Deputy's speech now is that he is not discussing the contents of the Bill.

I have tried to deal with Part I.

The Deputy has dealt, for the last quarter of an hour, with an amendment proposed in Committee for the introduction of a particular principle with regard to income tax, which is not in the Bill, and which was not introduced into the Bill.

I submit, so far as the more recent portions of my speech are concerned, that I have discussed the disadvantages of imposing income tax upon unearned income which is 25 per cent. lower than income tax imposed in Great Britain.

I have dealt with that question from the point of view that investment in Great Britain undeniably gives a wider market and greater convertibility because of the greater possibilities of capital appreciation, and offers much greater possibilities of capital appreciation, and offers much greater possibilities to an Irish investor than an Irish investment would. In order to save time and in order to be strictly relevant, I referred to the fact which I thought I had established in Committee, that because of this difference in the income tax rates, the Irish investor was able to and did draw——

The Deputy must not refer to discrimination any more or he must sit down.

As I was saying, on account of there being different rates of income tax ruling here and in Great Britain, there is this fact undeniably, that an investment which would yield the British taxpayer a net return of 3.72 per cent. upon the amount invested would yield the Irish taxpayer, who had invested in the same enterprise 3.92 per cent. Because of that fact Irish investors would always be able to take up stock in the British market at a price which would seem attractive because it is the demand in the British market which fixes the price of stock there. I argued from that that the whole conception which underlay Part I of the Bill, instead of being advantageous, as the President seemed to be under the impression it was, to the Irish investor, and instead of being a help to the Irish investor, is actually a handicap in so far as Irish industry might require to secure Irish capital. I was then proceeding to suggest that certain preferences which we proposed, would have counteracted the ill effects of the difference in income tax rates here and in England. I was going on then to deal with Part II of the Bill which relates to Customs and Excise and I was considering the Customs duties in so far as the duties are protective tariffs. I was dealing with what every person knows to be the general disadvantage of protective tariffs.

The Deputy cannot deal with that. It is too general.

I wish to be in order and I wish to be relevant, but at the same time I felt that the point of view of our party should be put fully before the Dáil because I thought that this was the last occasion we should have of discussing this amendment. You were good enough to say that we should have an opportunity of discussing it at another stage. I should like, in order that I may not say anything which will be unnecessary at this stage, and anything which will not be strictly to the point, if you could inform us what aspects of the Bill we are entitled to discuss on the Fifth Stage, because if there is anything which we can say on the Fifth Stage and cannot say now, I am prepared to wait until then.

I suggest that the Deputy should now conclude his speech and endeavour on the Fifth Stage to say something else.

In deference to your ruling, A Chinn Comhairle, I do not propose to say anything more except to say again that in view of the fact that we have been unable to persuade the Minister for Finance to accept the very beneficial principles which we urged, we are compelled to oppose the further progress of the measure.

I am frankly in a difficulty, which is perhaps a very natural difficulty to an inexperienced Deputy, in that I certainly—apparently following the example of my friend, Deputy MacEntee—do not clearly understand the implications and meaning and extent of the ruling as to the ambit of the discussion of this measure at this stage. Like Deputy MacEntee, I am sincerely anxious to keep within the most rigid limits, the most formal and almost pedantic limits—if I may use the term—of order, because I, in common with anybody who has any consideration for the technique of established democratic government——

The Deputy must come to the Finance Bill.

——recognise that strict orderliness is incumbent on everybody in the House. As far as I understand, we are to discuss the contents of this Bill. One may discuss the contents of a Bill in that it is good, that it is bad, that it is over-full, or that it is lacking. I am trying to get that view. It seems, therefore, that what I have to do is to discuss the actual provisions which are here, because they are here; actual provisions which are here, which are bad, because they are bad: and provisions which would fit into the general scheme of such a Bill as this, which are not here, and in their being not here, destroy the integrity and completeness of the measure itself. For instance, sub-section (1) of Section 1 says that income tax shall be charged for the year beginning on 6th April, 1928, at the rate of 3/- in the £. That is a flat rate, and I am going to suggest that a flat rate of that kind without limitation—I will not use the word discrimination—or without alleviation, on industries of all kinds and characters, on methods of attaining income of all kinds and character, does not fit into the scheme of things which would be designed by one who took a large outlook, not merely upon the present necessities, but upon the future possibilities of the country.

I, for instance, am very little concerned indeed with what the income tax is upon existing income in this country. I consider and regard the income tax of 3/- upon existing income in this country purely in relation to the fact of whether that 3/- is a flat rate upon all existing income, is an encouragement or is a discouragement to the production in this country of the income which does not exist, and the income which must exist if we are to maintain in this country a reasonably-sized population upon a reasonable standard of widely distributed frugal comfort. I object to sub-section (1) of Section 1 on the ground that a flat rate of this kind is a direct discouragement; that it does not recognise the things that ought to be recognised; that it does not deal with the things that ought to be dealt with; and that it does not envisage a Finance Bill as a Finance Bill ought to be envisaged: as an instrument of production, as one of the controlling influences, the determining avenues which decide along which path production shall flow. I object to sub-section (1) of Section 1 of Part I upon that ground.

There is a silly idea abroad and it is incorporated in that section that income tax of 3/- or 4/- or 2/-, or something of that kind is a thing which can be put down in bald language of that kind, and justified without regard to its consequences. Who pays that income tax in the ultimate? Surely it is a matter which ought to be in a Bill of this kind. There ought to be in sub-section (1) of Section 1 of Part 1 of this Bill something which would clearly state that 3/- in the £ income tax shall be charged under certain conditions. It is one of the basic propositions in economics that any cost which is common to all competitors in industry has to be added to the cost of the goods sold by all competitors in that industry before competition begins to operate to cheapen the price of goods. And, in so far as capital is one of the three or four necessary concomitants of production, and in so far as fluid capital is required in this country urgently, and in so far as fluid capital can obtain, whatever we chose to do to prevent it, its living international wage, then if we are going to keep capital flowing into that industry we must pay to it that living wage. And that living wage is a net wage, a net wage after the deduction of all its disagreeableness in costs, wherever the income accrues. Therefore we have in this particular section a statement that at the rate of 3/- there shall be added to the cost of production in this country—in so far as the cost of production in this country is expressed in the position of fluid capital —3/- in the £. I object to that. We have stated in sub-section (1) of Section 1 of Part 1 of this Bill that exactly the same onus and burden is to be put upon capital whether it is functioning in Irish industry, for the purpose of producing wealth out of which the general State shall be maintained or whether it is merely being taken for purely luxurious purposes. For that reason I object, and that is the first of my objections to sub-section (1) of Section 1 of Part 1 of this Bill.

Sub-section (2) states that super-tax shall be charged for the year beginning on the 6th April, 1928, at the same rates as those at which it was charged for the year beginning on the 6th April, 1927. Why the same rate? Why the same rate upon all things? Why no differentiation? Is there any suggestion in that section that consideration has been given to the idea that a Finance Bill, like every other Bill which is introduced into this State, is to be judged by this test: whether it is one of the functioning machineries of increased production in the State? Not at all.

Income tax, like all taxes, filters back, and must be paid out of the total production of a State and, therefore, eventually must be taken from the producers in the State. But to suggest that all the people in the State and all the producers in the State are in exactly the same position, as this clause does, relative to the State, that without discrimination of person, without discrimination of trade, without discrimination of intelligence, of industry, and energy, without taking into question whether they are adventuring into the difficult task of producing a difficult wealth or whether they are simply lying upon their oars, these two clauses themselves are quite sufficient to condemn this Bill from the point of view of any large constructive effort in relation to wealth.

I could take this Bill word for word and clause for clause, but at the moment I prefer to pick out, as some "queen courtier unbidden that brings her gems to the sun." I would rather choose here and there from the mass of wealth and riches of the follies of this document than merely trace the sequence of folly on which it has been constructed. You have in this Bill the amazing proposition that the actual means of production, an actual piece of the functioning machinery of production, shall be taxed and shall be increased in price. There is no other meaning in the suggestion that the commercial lorry, used for commercial purposes, should, upon its capital costs, be taxed for the purposes of revenue. You might just as well tax coal. You might just as well tax lubricating oil. You might just as well tax management itself. I can see a State bankrupt, seavenging in every corner to meet immediate liabilities, with the sheriff in, with the enemy at his door, actually driven to the last limits and to the last expedient to which hard-driven bankrupt men are driven—I can see them doing things like that. Men sell their cattle to pay their annuities. Hundreds of thousands of cattle were sold in the last few years to pay arrears of income tax, but then the sheriff was in on the men. This is the philosophy of the man who has the sheriff in the house. Let us tax the means of production. Let us drive up the cost of transport. Let us increase the cost of production in this State, and this from a Government who came here the other night and told us that in relation to a great industry the question whether or not it should have protection would be decided upon the fact that its cost of production must be as low as the cost of production in the most highly developed industrial States in the world. And this Finance Bill, which I ask Deputies to judge and examine not merely as a financial instrument but as a responsible contribution of a responsible Government to production in this country—this amazing Bill, actually, deliberately, for the purposes of income, increases the capital cost of a producing instrument in this State.

Frankly I, personally, as one who has a certain amount of respect for the conventions of economics, could not, if I were to imagine an inditement to offer to a responsible Government in relation to finance, if I were asked to express in a sentence folly that was abysmal, I could not find a sentence more severe than that which accurately describes this clause in this Bill. And what for? In order to get part of the twenty-three or twenty-four million pounds which our national housekeeper tells us are necessary for the housekeeping. You and I as ordinary people know that we have to decide what is available for housekeeping and have to keep our housekeeping within the limits of that which is available. The purpose of this Bill is to get the amount of money which they say is necessary, not the amount we can afford. There is no man in this State, at the present moment, who thinks that within the actual existing production which is going on in this State and the probable production which will go on in this State as far as we can predict it on ordinary limits— there is no sane man in this country who thinks that we can afford to take out of that limited existing mass of production or lack of mass of production the amount we are now taking.

The capital of the whole of this country has been recently estimated by a representative of the American Government who came over here at between £400,000,000 and £600,000,000 that is for the whole of Ireland.

The capitalised value of £24,000,000 is £480,000,000. That is what we are paying for the mere functioning of government in this country, for the housekeeping that is going on. That is what that Bill is for, to absorb the whole produce and product of £480,000,000. What are you getting for the £480,000,000? What are you doing without because you are spending the whole product of £480,000,000 inside the pages of this Finance Bill? What are you getting for it? "Bankrupt of intelligence, bankrupt of initiative, bankrupt of everything of value to Ireland." Those boomerang words come back on the man who uttered them. They are true of the Government that framed this Bill; true in every detail—bankrupt of intelligence, bankrupt of initiative, bankrupt of everything of any value or use to this country. And when it is all done, what does it amount to? £800,000 or £900,000 included in the balancing of this Budget made up of non-recurrent revenue.

The Deputy must not go into that. He must confine himself to the levying of the taxes imposed in the Finance Bill.

Included in the Finance Bill are, I believe, some of these non-recurrent revenues. I may be wrong, but that is my recollection. At the end of all these taxes, at the end of all these clauses—and I have not gone through them all yet—there is the fact that we cannot even carry on on the basis of this Finance Bill. It is not a question of judging this in detail, word for word, but does this Finance Bill, which is the statement of your housekeeping for the next year, represent any static condition? Does it represent something which can go on? It represents something which has to be torn up, it represents the admission that we cannot carry on upon these taxes, that we are bringing into revenue in this Finance Bill things which will not be available next year, and we will still have the same costs. It brings into revenue things which are not revenue at all. It is equivalent to a man who sells his car to buy petrol to drive it.

Let us take another of the gems from this collection. A farthing a pound on sugar. What for? I am objecting to the contents of the Bill. The basket contains things which ought not be in the basket, and the basket does not contain things that ought to be in the basket. It contains things which not merely are neutral or negative, but which are actually harmful. We are charging a farthing a pound on sugar in order that we may be able to keep up a rate of expenditure upon existing and inadequate social and governmental services which absorb the whole usufruct of £480,000,000. We are doing it in order that we may spend so many millions on the Army. If we were not, we would not require that farthing. If we had not in governmental and other ways a standard of wasteful and luxurious expenditure which is not reproductive, we would not require these things. My biggest objection to this Bill is that it does not provide that money. The fact that it is not capable of continuing to provide it is bad enough. That is very shameful from an economic point of view. It is bad enough that this Budget should have been balanced within this Bill by provisions which would be a despair and a contempt in the mind of any responsible Minister for Finance. But what is really tragic is that it does provide and does suggest a continuance of extracting from the community a total sum which the community cannot possibly bear and ought not to bear. The first and best reason for rejecting this Bill is that it does provide for existing services, extravagantly carried on, an amount of money which we cannot afford to spend on these services. The second reason is that it provides an amount of money, and extracts from production a total amount of money which is a burden upon production.

Every single penny that is provided for in this Bill must be added to the cost of the production of goods which you try to sell in competition. Can we afford to burden the cost of continuing production in this country with twenty-four millions of money? If we cannot we should reject this Bill. Can we afford to have a Budget that is only balanced by raking and seavenging into every financial corner for the dregs? Is that the condition we are reduced to? Is this House going to pass a Budget which contains and uses, as ordinary revenue to meet ordinary expenditure, nearly a million of money which will not exist next year? Balancing your Budget—that was one of the ten points of little Willie, but little Willie has told, unfortunately, some of the truth lately. Twenty million pounds of a debt, and two and a half millions of a debt charge. Try to reconcile these two statements—twelve and a half per cent. upon our debt. Something is wrong somewhere. They have been balancing their Budget up to the present on windfalls and lucky bags—arrears of income tax——

And wind-bags.

It is very excellent to have a wind-bag which can control the wind exactly, both for time and nature, for the purpose for which he desires, and not his opponents. This Budget— this Finance Bill—honestly, it is very difficult to find a term which will cover it and be parliamentary——

We will leave that to you to do.

Well, generally an intelligent gentleman is intelligible sometimes, but apparently not in this case both intelligent and intelligible, because I would be very glad indeed to hear all that the Minister for Agriculture has to say; I should be very happy to give way while he has any words of wisdom, while he suggests any train of thought, while he opens up any avenue of argument which I may have forgotten. No hope! I want the House to take three broad lines in relation to rejecting this Budget; one, that it covers a sum which is extravagant; two, that it obtains that sum in a manner which is nationally uneconomic, and the third point I will deal with later. This Budget is to provide funds for the maintenance of all sorts and kinds of things. It is because they say they want the money that all these provisions are there; it is not because the money is required. If, for instance, the Minister for Justice had not said in this House that a Civic Guard who had kept his technical assault within the court valuation of £10 to £40 was a very good servant of the State, if that was not the standard by which good service in that highly expensive avenue of expenditure of this State was governed, what would be the amount of expenditure required upon that service?

If the Minister for Justice had been prepared to say that the offence of a Civic Guard, which was below the technical valuation of £10, when it was an assault committed upon a subject of this State, was an offence which should meet immediate and condign punishment, what would be the different relations between the ordinary member of this State and the whole judicial system, and what would be the reaction upon the cost of the whole of the preventive service in this country of a widely distributed knowledge to the community that the Minister for Justice stood for a very different atmosphere in relation to the liberty of the subject than that which that statement made by him in this House in answer to a question, represents? If, for instance, the Minister for Agriculture, who pours through this House as through a funnel, laws and regulations of all kinds, had been a good lawyer, what would have been the effect on the efficiency of the law which he administers?

Does not the Deputy think that the efficiency of different Ministers would arise more properly on their Estimates?

I am rather inclined to agree with you.

Is there any machinery by which an ordinary member of this House could have a glass of water? I do not suppose there is any machinery by which an ordinary member of the House could intermit his duty in the House while waiting for that drink of water. Let us take another case. The real beauty in architecture, and the real beauty even in the Finance Bill, is the bringing together, in obviously beauty-producing relations, things which are in harmony. Now, it was an act of pure, unadulterated genius to bring together in this Finance Bill the relief of entertainments tax on race meetings and the imposition of a farthing a pound on sugar. I want to be just to my political opponents. I should be very sorry that that gem should remain unrevealed. I am quite sure that no man on this side of the House could be capable of rising to those supreme heights of imagination.

Another thing which, in my opinion, is gravely defective from the larger statesmanlike point of view in this country is, that it does not envisage the educative effect which this Budget could have been used to give by the reorganisation of taxation in the direction of making people actively conscious of what they pay. This House will recall a lesson in economics by a great outstanding and pre-eminent professor of that art. Starting with a calculation which the reasonable discretion of the authorities excluded from the records of this House, he went on to prove, or at any rate to assert because coming from such an authority assertion is proof, that if the ordinary farmer in the country did not lick stamps, did not smoke tobacco and did not drink, did not write letters and did not buy stocks or shares, that he paid no tax. One of the tragedies of this State is that a lot of people believe that, and a lot of people act as if it were true and act very definitely to their disadvantage. This Finance Bill, in what it includes and in what it excludes, in what it does and in what it fails to do, means in fact that you pay taxes, though you do not know it, on an infinity of things. If you did know you were paying tax on them all the time, the public opinion of the country would rise as one man organised to refuse to have taken from them their means of livelihood by those taxes.

A man cannot tie his shoe lace in this country without paying tax, he cannot be born, he cannot be married, and he cannot die without paying tax, he cannot go into a restaurant or into a railway carriage dining room, he cannot bequeath or inherit land, he cannot consume any of the goods carried over the ordinary roads or in a motor car without paying tax. I went through it with a very careful student the other night who knows a great deal more about these details than I do, and I found that if the statement was true that a farmer did not pay tax, the first thing that would happen is that he could not farm, he could not eat, he could not live, he could not wear clothes he could not do anything because he was so surrounded and meshed in with all sorts of taxes.

Could he breathe?

How on earth could he breathe? Let us assume for a moment that Deputy Byrne has been elected by someone to this House——

The Deputy would be in order in criticising what is in the Bill, but he is not in order in criticising what it does not contain.

If you will allow me for a moment, it is perfectly obvious that a man who could not do any of the things which I have said he could not do without being taxed, could not breathe for long. This Finance Bill also provides— at any rate the statement was made by the Minister in introducing it, in justifying it and in making it fill out to cover with its exiguous garments the broad nakedness of the Irish economic land—for the artificial and arbitrary collection of arrears of income tax not provided for in the ordinary manner. Income tax, as those of you who pay it know, is burdensome in the sense that it takes money from you, and that it is almost more burdensome in two other ways, in that it sets upon your conscience the task of deciding how near to the average acceptance of the obligations of income taxpayers you are prepared to go, with all the pains and penalties of the third degree which you go through in the process of income tax authorities explaining to you that your standard is not the same as theirs. I would like to have seen in sub-section (1) of Section 1 of Part I. of the Bill it stated that 3/- in the £ was the tax, or that it was not the tax, because it is not the tax. This Bill purports to cover the expenditure of the year, and it is going to cover that expenditure by using the income of may be, five years in advance, and it is going to maintain that standard of expenditure. To conclude, if this State is to develop out of a poor narrow place in which about 3,000,000 of people win an exiguous living from one of the most uncertain trades in the world, in a country in which that trade is utterly uncapitalised, and in which production is directed not to the maintenance or manufacture of men, but to the production of land in exchange, one thing is essential, and it is not provided in this Bill that every unnecessary——

If it is not in the Bill the Deputy cannot discuss it. The Deputy can only discuss what is in the Bill.

Every unnecessary and preventible expenditure must be reduced, and this Bill, or its forebears or futurity, must be expressed in a form which would reduce the total amount which is taken from the community for the maintenance of existing services to a very much lower level, for this Bill does provide extravagantly for inefficient services, and because of providing for these, it leaves utterly starved and inert services that are essential to the life and development of this State. I ask the House unanimously to vote against this Bill being passed.

Cuirim in aghaidh an Bhille seo. Tá maoin sa tír agus is féidir an tír a dhéanamh níos saibhre ná mar tá. B'fhéidir ná fuilimíd ró-shaibhir ach tá maoin go leór san tír. Tá a lán slí chun na tíre do dhéanamh níos saibhre agus tá fir go leór chun san do dhéanamh agus chun saol compórdach do thabhairt do na 3,000,000 daoine atá sa Stát. B'fhéidir go bhfuil go leór maoine ann do dhá oiread daoine. Ach, in ionad an scéal a bheith mar san, tá gorta agus ganntanas sa tír agus, rud níos measa ná san, tá an imirce ann. Dá mbeadh againn, mar Aire Airgid, fear eolasach agus a chroidhe san áit cheart, bheadh a mhalairt de sgéal annso. Thiocfadh leis Bille níos fearr ná an Bille seo do thabhairt isteach. Ní abraim, agus ní abrann Teachta ar bith ar an dtaobh so den Tigh, gur féidir leis an Aire an sgéal iomlán do leasú i mbliain amháin ach, dá gcuirfeadh an tAire chuige i gceart, thiocfadh leis, i gcionn chúig mblian, crot níos fearr do chur ar an tír.

Tá a lán daoine díomhaoin san tír agus, ar an dtaobh eile, tá an iomad airgid á chaitheamh ar rudaí nách bhfuil maitheas ionnta agus nách bhfuil toradh ag teacht asta don tir. Tá tuairim £1,000,000 á chaitheamh againn gan aon teacht thar n-ais don tír. Tá beagnách £2,000,000 á chaitheamh ar an Arm agus tá cuid mhaith den méid sin ag dul amú. Ní abraim gur cóir gan Arm a bheith ann in aon chor. Sé mo thuairim gur cóir Arm do bheith againn ach creidim gur féidir Arm níos fearr agus níos líonmhaire bheith againn agus gan ach leath an méid airgid do chaitheamh air. Deirtear linn go bhfuil fonn ar ógánaigh na tíre suim do chur i rudaí a bhaineas le h-arm agus más mar sin atá an sgéal ba chóir dúinn scéim cheart a bheith ceaptha againn.

Tá an sgéal amhlaidh mar gheall ar na píléirí. Caithimíd beagnach dhá mhíliúin eile ar na píléirí sa tír seo. Tír bheag isea an tír seo agus níl an méid saibhris againn gur féidir linn £2,000,000 do chaitheamh mar sin. Ní dó liom gur cóir nó gur ceart é sin. Dá mba rud é gan ach leath den méid sin do chaitheamh, ní bheadh an oiread sin cánach ar an dtír. Dá dtiocfadh linn an cháin do laghdú bheadh an tír níos sona agus bheadh seans ag déantúisi na tíre dul chun cinn. Có maith le sin, tá a lán airgid á chaitheamh ar phinnsiún. Tá cuid den airgead sin á chaitheamh ar roinnt daoine ag a bhfuil sé tuilte. Ach níl sé tuilte ag dhá dtréan díobh. Níl aon rud fónta déanta ar son na tíre ag an gcuid is mó de na daoine atá ag fáil an airgid seo. Thiocfadh leis an Aire Airgid £2½ milliún do shábháil faoi na trí nidhthe seo agus dá ndéanfadh sé sin, ní bheadh air Bille mar seo do thabhairt isteach.

Tá tuairim £24,000,000 á bhailiú mar cháin san tír. Ní dó liom go bhfuilim i bhfad amú nuair adeirim go bhfuil £3½ milliún á chaitheamh ar Sheirbhís an Stáit. Níor mhaith liom a rá, agus ní deirim, nách bhfuil obair fónta tairbheach á dhéanamh ag lucht na Stáit-Sheirbhíse. Tá obair mhaith gá dhéanamh acu ach creidim go bhfuil an iomad acu ann. Dá mbeadh an Rialtas i ndáiríribh, thiocfadh leo airgead a shábháil ar an Stát-Sheirbhís agus deóntaisí na "bounties" do thabhairt do déantúisí na tíre, i dtreo go mbeidh fás agus boradh ionnta agus go mbeadh deire leis an nganntanas oibre agus díomhaointeas. B'fhurus a lán airgid do shábháil ar Sheirbhís an tStáit gan aon dochar do dhéanamh don tír.

Nílim sásta guth a thabhairt ar son an Bhille seo ar na hadhbhair do thugas agus ar an adhbhar nách bhfuil an Rialtas ag caitheamh go leór airgid ar tighthe do thógáil. I mBaile Atha Cliath, tá ganntanas mór mar sin agus tá an sgéal céana ag na bailte móra agus ag na bailte beaga ar fuid na tíre. In gach áit tá easba tithe. Dá gcaithfeadh an tAire an t-Airgead gur féidir leis a shábháil ar an rud so, bheadh leigheas ar an sgéal so i gcionn cúig mblian. Ach níl sé sásta an t-airgead go shábháil agus do réir a bharamhail féin agus baramhail na ndaoine atá as taobhadh leis ní shábhálfar é.

Tá 20,000 líontighe i mBaile Atha Cliath gan tithe maithe acu. Nílim sásta ná féidir an t-airgead d'fháil chun tithe do thógáil ar son na ndaoine seo. Níl pioc san mBille seo chun a theasbáint go bhfuil éinní fónta ag an Aire ná ag an Rialtas á dhéanamh chun ceist seo na dtithe do réiteach. Tá rudaí eile mar sin gur ceart airgead do bheith againn in a geóir. Acht níl airgead le fáil. Dá mbeadh an t-airgead le spáráil, ba mhaith an rud congnamh do thabhairt do bhaintreabhaighe an Stáit. Mar sin dhe, creidim nách cóir dúinn a rá ná fuil suim againn á chur i rudaí den t-saghas so.

Os rud é go bhfuil an sgéal' chó dona is atá, ní féidir liom guth a thabhairt ar son an Bhille seo an fhaid is ná fuil aon rud ann chun an droch sgéal do leasú. Mar a dubhairt i dtosach, ní fheacathas Bille níos measa i gcomparáid le staid na tíre ná é. Ní dhéanfhaidh sí aon rud i gcóir droch-staid na tíre do leigheas. Má cuimhnigheann duine ar staid ná tíre agus an diomhaointeas atá ann tuigfe sé ná féadfaí Bille níos measa do thabhairt isteach. Chó fada agus atá fonn ag an Rialtas airgead do chaitheamh mar seo, níl aon seans go n-eireoidh linn an tír do chur ar a bonnaibh.

We on this side of the House regard this as a very bad Bill, and we want to say so far as we are concerned at all events that it is not our Bill. It may go forth from the Dáil as the best product of the different parties, but we on this side of the House disown it, and in short we consider that it is not a Bill that the House should be in any way proud of. We think it is neither helpful nor. stimulating to any Irish enterprise. We think it is packed full with injustice. We think it is a mean Bill. The new duties are duties, curiously enough, levied on articles which are not produced in this House—I mean in this country. While all the world in imposing customs duties looks to the industry that prevails within the country or that could possibly be built up within the country as a thing to protect, we in this country, in our very superior wisdom, look for articles that we neither produce nor are likely to produce at any time in the present generation. I think that is a very extraordinary course for a Finance Minister to take. We have heard no excuse for it, and we think it is absolutely injurious to the country. As Deputy Flinn has pointed out, one of the things selected for new taxation this year is at the present moment a very important part of production, that is the commercial lorry. We think that any Finance Minister looking around at the state of the towns in Ireland at the present time and appreciating, as he would necessarily do, the great need for developing means of employment—we think that no Finance Minister would have resorted to the means that the present Minister for Finance has resorted to for some curious and mysterious motive. I am not going to speculate as to what his motives are, but the Finance Minister is not ignorant of what is going on in other countries. He is not ignorant of the tendency even in our nearest neighbour to protect the home industry. He is not ignorant of the demand from a big and influential section of the Irish people that several of the industries which are at present in need of protection should get protection; he is not ignorant of the demand of a great many people that a substantial protection should be imposed for these industries.

Yet in putting on new duties he chooses tyres and motor vehicles, neither of which is likely to be produced in this country for a long while, and then he offers by way of encouragement to the coach-building industry that when the chassis is brought in without a body he will allow three months' credit for the duty on that chassis. I do not think that anybody who knows the system by which that trade is going on here, and knows the big finances that are at the back of it, would consider that that concession is worth a moment's thought. That concession is not going to stop the importation of bus and lorry bodies—is not going to stop the importation of these articles for one hour; and the Minister for Finance was merely playing with a very important thing to many hundreds of people, with an industry that could be built up here, and probably be one of our proudest industries. He is merely playing with it when he offers that as a concession to the builders of motor bodies in this country.

Then, with regard to the double income tax, we were certainly amazed to find the Minister for Finance confessing there could be no interference with the pension list so long as the double income tax arrangement continues. That is, there could be no attempt to differentiate between pensions enjoyed by people who are living outside the Saorstát and the people who are living at home. We think that before that arrangement was made there should have been a big effort made to differentiate in that matter. The other evening I was talking to an Irishman who was home from the Argentine. He was discussing that matter and he said: "I came here intending to settle here, but ever since I arrived in the country I have had nothing but bother about income tax on money I earned in the Argentine. You do nothing to discourage people leaving your country. In the Argentine if I enjoyed £100 of a pension from the Argentine Government. I dare not live outside the State; yet in this country you seem to keep all your penalties for those who attempt to come back to their native country, who happen to have made good in other countries and who come back to settle down in their native land." That is another of the curious anomalies that prevail in this country.

On a point of order, I would like to know how the Deputy reconciles that statement with the statement made here by one of his leading colleagues.

That is not a point of order.

I did not understand the Deputy, in any case.

Because you did not want to.

We consider, anyhow that in a country that is in the very poor state that Ireland is in at the present time, there should have been a very big effort made to penalise those who enjoy pensions from within the country and who choose to live outside the country.

On a point of order, does the question of pensions arise on the Finance Bill?

I was waiting for the Deputy to come to that.

I was referring to double income tax. In a discussion on double income tax the Minister for Finance explained that an essential part of the double income tax arrangement was that there could be no differentiation in regard to pensions enjoyed within the State and outside the State. I think that is relevant enough, even for Deputy Cooper. We consider that the sugar tax and the failure to give any concession with regard to the cinema tax show a meanness that this House should not be guilty of. We know that the Party opposite have very high opinions with regard to the rewards for service here. They have utter contempt for £1,000 a year as a reward for a man doing any service for the State.

Only a third-rater should be asked to accept £1,000 a year, at least so we have been told, in effect, again and again. The same Ministers, however, and the same parties, in order to collect the very big incomes which they consider necessary, have to admit here that the poor unfortunate wretch who goes to a cinema and pays sixpence so as to escape from the sordidness of slum life and unemployment, must pay a tax. We cannot afford to abandon the tax on that unfortunate wretch. If the Ministers have such high notions they certainly can stoop very low, in my opinion, in order to maintain that fine display. No country that has any self-respect could say to its citizens through its Parliament: "We cannot give you houses, we cannot give you decent wages, and we are forcing you into a position where you have to pay higher for everything you buy, where even education is more or less wasted on you. We are doing all that, and we cannot afford to give you sixpence worth of amusement without tax. You must contribute to our upkeep while you go to cinema performances." That is a curious contrast in the minds of Ministers and in the minds of members of this House if they pass this Finance Bill.

We are satisfied that the sugar tax could have been avoided. With all the poverty that prevails at present and with the small farmers in a position of despair, we think that any attempt to add to their cost of living should have been avoided, and we are satisfied that it could easily have been avoided. We think there is much more room for cutting down expenses and that other things could have been taxed with greater advantage and less injustice than sugar. On the whole, we are not satisfied that this Bill is the best that could have been produced. We think it is going to hit the under dog much more severely than is necessary. We think that where there is such a strong defence put up for maintaining a State institution, whose members probably get £5 an hour for every hour they spend in it, and when we can afford such extravagance as that we could, at least, ask these people to be content with less rewards and ask many of those who are enjoying rewards, which are much more than are necessary for the standard of comfort suitable to a country like this, to be satisfied with a little less, so that people living in the slums, in wretched houses all over the country and living unfortunate lives, might at least have sixpence worth of amusement without any tax.

It is hardly necessary to point out to members of this House the defects of this Finance Bill. If they would honestly consider the merits of this Bill I would have no doubt, as Deputy Flinn forecasted, it would be thrown out unanimously. If we consider Section 2, which contains a promise to the people of salaries of £2,000 and over, as against the section which deals with the imposition of a farthing a pound on sugar, we will get a good indication of the principles which, in general, underlie the Bill. If the Government were not in a position this year to relieve that privileged class of super-tax payers, what was the necessity of putting in a clause in the Bill telling them that they were going to be relieved next year? Why did they not leave out that clause, and why, when putting the farthing tax on sugar, did they not follow that by a clause saying that from the year beginning the 6th April, 1929, this tax shall not apply? They did not, however, do so. They put the farthing a pound on sugar and, so far as we know, it is going to remain there, even though next year we have to take off this super-tax from the big incomes.

As has been pointed out already, this is a bad Bill. The Bill was introduced in order to provide sufficient money to carry on the services for the year. The case would be bad enough, very bad, if we were requiring the amount of money raised under this Bill to carry on the services. It would put us in the position, as already pointed out by Deputy Flinn, of being at a great disadvantage against our competitors for foreign markets, even if we were to live within this income, but the question is, are we, even when we have this money voted, going to live within such income? I see in the Accounts of 1926-7—I do not know if this year is going to turn out the same and we have no reason for thinking it will not—that the normal receipts from normal sources was £25,060,000 and the normal expenditure for that year was £27,024,000, a difference of a little over £2,000,000. Against that there was £331,000 more in the Exchequer at the end of the year than was there at the commencement. That makes a deficit of £1,632,000. When we examine this normal revenue we find under the heading "Miscellaneous Receipts" one or two particular items which cannot in any circumstances be regarded as normal receipts.

The Deputy must remember that we are discussing the Finance Bill of this year on Report.

I thought I might be in order in drawing attention to the fact that even under this Finance Bill we are not raising sufficient money to run the ordinary Departments of State.

How do you know?

I am going to prove it, and then you will know also. As I say, I admit we cannot say now, we may live £5,000,000 or £10,000,000 below what is being asked in this Bill. If we find that money was voted under similar circumstances and that the House was left under a similar impression in former years that the money raised by the Finance Bill was sufficient to run the services for the year, and if we find that in previous years it took more than that money to do so, I think we would be entitled to assume that the same thing might happen this year. On a previous occasion, for instance, a sum of money——

I am afraid that the Deputy will have to confine himself to what is in the Bill. This is not the time to go back on the accounts of two years ago.

Under this Bill we anticipate a certain income to defray the cost of administration for the year, and as I am ruled out of order in drawing attention to what I might call the principal source of some of that income I must leave that point. The Bill, as has been pointed out—and I think a matter like this could not be stressed too often—might be called a rich man's Bill. Wherever a concession was given it was given to the people with money such as race-goers, who can afford to pay twenty or fifteen shillings for admission to a racecourse; and wherever a concession was refused, it was refused to the poor person who could afford at the most to take a sixpenny seat at a cinema or theatre. Wherever additional taxation was imposed it was imposed in such a way as to burden the poor person rather than the rich person—such as in the case of the farthing on the pound of sugar. We all know that if the housekeeping account of the poor man were taken for a week against that of the rich man, the proportion of sugar used by the poor people would be higher than that used by the rich, because if there are children in a house—and there are as many in the poor man's as in the rich man's—sugar is a necessary part of their food. It is necessary for the life of children in particular, and therefore a poor man is compelled to buy a certain amount of sugar. This tax, I hold, falls very unfairly on the poor man. I cannot certainly see any saving feature in this Bill. There was not one big gesture made that would justify our approval of this Bill, and I think that we would not be doing our duty to the people we represent unless we were to vote against it unanimously.

I would like to say something against this Bill, too, as regards the taxation on spirits and beer, but when I find there is a new army up against me I say to myself that I am almost a prisoner. I have only to warn those who are in the trade— the barley-growers, the brewers and the workers—that they have a tough time in front of them. I intended to raise this question on the Report Stage, but, as I pointed out, I find that I have no help from any side of the House. Whatever chance I had before, all my hopes are destroyed now with this new army up against me. As far as the remainder of the Bill is concerned, I look upon it as taxation that is necessary for the carrying on of the government of the country. No Government can carry on without taxation, and I believe that this Government has given every consideration to the needs of the people before they imposed the taxation that is necessary for the security of the people of the country, and for that reason I shall vote for the Bill.

took the Chair.

It has never been a popular thing to play the part of the prophet of evil. The role of Cassandra is always a very thankless one. When you prophesy evil nobody believes you, and when it comes true, no one will thank you for it. It may cost you your life if you say "I told you so." That is the position, unfortunately, in which we are placed, that we have to act the part of prophets of evil. We have to point out that what is going to be effected by this Finance Bill is only one part of an elaborate machine which is working for the ruin of the country. Deputy Flinn referred to Little Willie and it occurs to me that the prophecy could be put in the old rhyme about Little Willie.

Is that in the Bill?

Does Deputy Mrs. Collins-O'Driscoll wish to raise a point of order?

Yes. The Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle have said that Deputies were to confine themselves to what was in the Finance Bill.

If there is one thing more than another in the Finance Bill, it is the policy of Little Willie.

The Deputy must not indulge in references of that kind.

Is it objectionable to quote a nursery rhyme?

It is most objectionable and the Deputy must not do it. It introduces an element into the debate which would be intolerable if applied all round.

I think it is only fair to myself to say that what I said was not in the nature of being insulting, but was rather intended to be humorous, in a manner in which I would not object myself to the same kind of thing being used towards me, which I think is a pretty fair test as to what anyone might say. I think I am entitled to say that, although if the Ceann Comhairle takes the view that it might be regarded as being hurtful, I do not want to press it.

The Deputy is entitled to say what he meant, but the Ceann Comhairle's experience of these expressions is that they are better left unsaid.

I see. I am sorry that I am deprived of the opportunity of saying what I have to say by using an example applied to the situation, showing that by the process of imposing so much taxation a deadly sickness will fall upon the country. I will leave that alone because I can make my point without it. Deputies may be weary at our stressing the fact that the terms of this Bill are going to make evil for the country. They may feel that we are emphasising that too much. I do not think that the average man outside will disagree with us. Everybody at present feels the burden of taxation. Everybody feels that the increases of taxation which we find in this Bill are going to fall heavier and heavier upon people. Although they groan under it, they have been persuaded that this taxation is necessary. I submit that the first step that we should take would be, not to impose this taxation, but to admit that we are in such a state that under the present conditions we cannot pay our way because, if we go along living in a fool's paradise, at the end of a year or two we are going to be faced with far greater ruin than at present. We are, as it were, in the position of tenants on an estate where the title has been sold and handed over to an alien enemy. In itself that is an abstract question. But, as a direct result of that surrender, you find that a rent is being put upon these tenants— and this Bill is portion of the rent— and that that rent is such as to eat up all the powers of production of the tenants. That, in fact, is the condition of 90 per cent. of the producers to-day —they cannot produce enough to live on and they are simply living on capital from day to day. It is only a question of time until this Bill, together with other elements, will have worked the ruin of the people, and the greatest desires of Cromwell and Elizabeth will have been carried out through financial means such as these. Aims and ends will have been achieved through financial means which were not achieved by the Black and Tans. One of the economists said a very wise thing, that all tyranny expresses itself in finance. I say that our Party is doing the greatest duty to the country and to every individual interested in its prosperity in emphasising again and again that this is part of the machinery for the ruination of the people.

DEPUTIES

"Hear, hear."

Deputies who say "Hear, hear" in derision are people who——

You have not an idea of what I was going to say.

I was going to say something not in the least insulting, but, at the same time, a severe criticism. I was going to say that people who can afford to take up that attitude must be drawing from some sources of revenue other than those drawn out of the prosperity or misery of the Irish people.

That only illustrates that the advice I gave was good. The Deputy has no right whatever to refer to the revenue which Deputies derive. Again, if we had that applied generally, the situation would be intolerable. We cannot discuss the source of Deputies' income—if they have any incomes.

I am sorry if I contravened the ruling of the Chair, but, again, if someone made that charge against me, and if it were true, I should not object—I could not object, because it would be a severe, but true, criticism. It is all very well to laugh and take the matter in a light manner. I do not object to taking it in that way. Sometimes one can bring home truths by a jest rather than by being over-serious, but, at the same time, we cannot get away from the fact that at present the average man is from day to day facing the reality of having to live upon capital, and that at the end of that he sees nothing but emigration and the breakup of his home. It is in the light of that fact, in the light of that whole atmosphere, that we must consider and decide whether this Bill is making for the prosperity or for the ruination of the country. I submit that the more we oppose this Bill, because it is making for the ruination of the country, the more we are doing our duty to the country, and no one can charge us with going in for what is called barren obstruction. It is nothing of the sort. It is the most fruitful thing we can do, and the best thing for the country.

I have listened very attentively to the discussion, and I have heard the case for big business admirably stated by Deputy Flinn, although I daresay he would not be quite pleased if I said that he advocated the claims of big business as against the claims of the wage or salary earner who has to pay income tax on a relatively small sum. I am interested in the small wage earner or salaried person who finds it very difficult under present conditions to make both ends meet, and I ask the Minister: Is it worth while, seeing all the expense and trouble it must mean to his Department, to attempt to collect income tax from some of the wage and salary earners to whom I refer?

It being now 10.30 p.m. the debate stood adjourned.

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