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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Jun 1928

Vol. 24 No. 4

CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT NO. 13) BILL, 1928—FIRST STAGE.

William T. Cosgrave

The PRESIDENT

I move that leave be given to introduce a Bill entitled

"An Act to amend the Constitution by deleting the provisions now contained therein in relation to Bills (other than Money Bills) passed by Dáil Eireann and rejected by Seanad Eireann and substituting provisions whereby a Bill (not being a Money Bill) passed by Dáil Eireann and twice sent to Seanad Eireann shall after a certain time be deemed to have been passed by both Houses."

This Bill is in accordance with paragraph 7 of the Joint Committee's Report.

Seán T. O'Kelly

SEAN T. O CEALLAIGH

Cuirim in aghaidh an Bhille seo. Ní thuigim cad é atá ins an mBille agus ní bheidh fhios againn go dtí go dtagaidh an Bille ós ár gcomhair. Dá mba rud é ná beadh san mBille ach forálacha a scriosfadh amach an comhacht atá ag an Seanad i dtaobh Billí ón Tigh seo, bhéinn sásta. Ach mara dubhart, níl fhios agam cad á bhéas ann. B'fhearr dúinn uilig dá míneóchadh an t-Uachtarán nuair a bhí sé ag cainnt ó chianaibh cad tá in a aigne agus in aigne an Rialtais mar gheall ar an gceist seo. Do réir Airtiogal a 33 den thuarasgabháil a bhaineas leis an mBille seo, bheadh comhacht ag an Seanad Bille do choimeád siar go ceann bliana go leith. Más é sin an téarma atá san mBille, is dó liom gur ró-mhór an t-am é. Mar adubhairt duine de mo cháirde cheana, is é an rud ba cheart do dhéanamh ná comhacht do bhainnt de'n tSeanad. Más é an rud atá in-aigne an Rialtais comhacht do thabhairt don Seanad Bille do choimeád gan cur i ngníomh go ceann bliana go leith, sílim gur rómhór an tréimhse aimsire é sin. Is dó liom gur leor leath-bhliain—go ndéanfa sin an chúis go maith. Ní fheicim cad chuige go mbeadh comhacht ag an Seanad Bille do ritheadh san Tigh seo do choimeád siar go ceann bliana go leith. Is ins an Tigh seo atá an comhacht o na daoine. Is ins an Tigh seo atá an chuid is mó den chomhacht. Fuair Teachtaí an Tighe seo comhacht ó na daoine agus ba cheart an comhacht go léir do bheith san Tigh seo. Measaimíd nách ndineann an Bille seo an Seanad níos fearr ná mar atá agus nách ndéanfar obair na tíre níos feárr mar gheall air. Is é ár dtuairim, agus ár dtuairim láidir, go gcuireann an Bille an iomad comhachta i lámha an tSeanaid chun cur i gcoinne Billi a ritheadh san Tigh seo.

Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I will only take one statement against the Bill.

Hugh Victor Flinn

Mr. FLINN

I want to submit a point of order. Standing Order 82 says:

If such motion be opposed, the Ceann Comhairle, after permitting an explanatory statement from the Deputy who moves, and a statement from a Deputy who opposes the motion, may, if he thinks fit, put the question thereon. If leave to introduce the Bill be given, an Order shall be made for its Second Reading, and the Bill shall be printed.

My first point of order is that we are not discussing at all the question of whether the Bill shall be printed. That is a necessary consequence and does not come within the decision of a vote of the House at all. If the House does take a certain action in voting in a particular way, then it is mandatory upon the House, or whatever organisation there is behind the House for carrying out its executive work, that the Bill shall be printed.

Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

What is the point of order?

Hugh Victor Flinn

Mr. FLINN

The point I am putting.

Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

What is the point?

Hugh Victor Flinn

Mr. FLINN

That it has been ruled that we are discussing whether the Bill shall be printed.

Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

We are discussing whether leave be given to introduce the Bill.

Hugh Victor Flinn

Mr. FLINN

Excuse me——

Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is what we are discussing.

Hugh Victor Flinn

Mr. FLINN

We are anxious to find out what we can do in this matter, and, unless I am very much mistaken, you have ruled that what we are discussing here is that a particular Bill shall be introduced and shall be printed. When you look up the records I think you will find, whether that was your intention or not, that that is exactly what was said. I submit as a point of order that we are entitled to discuss, until we are ruled out, the question whether the Bill shall be printed. That is mandatory and it is a consequence following on the Bill. That is the first point I put to you. I suggest to you that you reverse the ruling you have given, that we are entitled to discuss——

Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The position under the Standing Order, as I explained at some length on a previous occasion, is that a motion shall be made that leave be given to introduce a Bill. If that motion be opposed, an explanatory statement must be permitted from the Deputy moving it and also a statement from a Deputy opposing. I have allowed two statements. The President, having been notified that there was opposition to the Bill, made a statement, and I allowed a statement also from Deputy O'Kelly. The Standing Order allows the Ceann Comhairle discretion to put the question and I propose to put the question without allowing any further statement. I do not understand the Deputy's point of order.

Hugh Victor Flinn

Mr. FLINN

I am submitting a point of order.

Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy has been some time submitting a point of order, and I do not understand what it is.

Hugh Victor Flinn

Mr. FLINN

I am doing it to the best of my ability.

Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Does the Deputy himself desire to make a statement on this motion?

Hugh Victor Flinn

Mr. FLINN

If the Standing Order allows me to do so.

Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I rule that the Standing Order does not so allow.

Seán MacEntee

Mr. MacENTEE

I do not think that that is in accordance with the Standing Order, though it may be an exercise of the discretion allowed under it. I submit that the Standing Order, if a statement has been made against a Bill which does not wholly explain the attitude towards it on these Benches, would allow another Deputy to explain that attitude further.

Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

No. I would allow a statement from a Deputy representing a particular Party. I would allow a statement from Deputy O'Connell, for instance, if he desired to make one.

Hugh Victor Flinn

Mr. FLINN

The point I want to get clear is that you are using your discretion, the discretion which is in the Chair, under this Standing Order, to prohibit a second Deputy from making a speech.

Hugh Victor Flinn

Mr. FLINN

That you are limiting debate——

Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I am not limiting debate, because debate is not contemplated by the Standing Order. The Standing Order explicity excludes debate and contemplates an explanatory statement from the Deputy moving the Bill and a statement from the Deputy opposing it. In this particular instance there has been a statement, and it is not proposed to allow a further statement from a Deputy of the same Party as the Deputy who made the statement in opposition.

Hugh Victor Flinn

Mr. FLINN

Or even to allow a statement from some other Party?

Michael Hayes

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is a hypothetical question.

Question put.
The Dáil divided. Tá, 73. Níl, 40.

Tá

  • William P. Aird.
  • Ernest Henry Alton.
  • Richard Anthony.
  • James Walter Beckett.
  • George Cecil Bennett.
  • Séamus A. Bourke.
  • Henry Broderick.
  • Seán Brodrick.
  • Alfred Byrne.
  • John Joseph Byrne.
  • Patrick Clancy.
  • James Coburn.
  • John James Cole.
  • Mrs. Margt. Collins-O'Driscoll.
  • Hugh Colohan.
  • Martin Conlon.
  • Michael P. Connolly.
  • Bryan Ricco Cooper.
  • William T. Cosgrave.
  • Sir James Craig.
  • James Crowley.
  • John Daly.
  • Michael Davis.
  • Eugene Doherty.
  • James N. Dolan.
  • Peadar Seán Doyle.
  • Edmund John Duggan.
  • James Dwyer.
  • Barry M. Egan.
  • John F. O'Hanlon.
  • Daniel O'Leary.
  • Dermot Gun O'Mahony.
  • John J. O'Reilly.
  • Gearoid O'Sullivan.
  • John Marcus O'Sullivan.
  • William Archer Redmond.
  • Vincent Rice.
  • Osmond Thos. Grattan Esmonde.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • James Fitzgerald-Kenney.
  • John Good.
  • Denis J. Gorey.
  • Alexander Haslett.
  • John J. Hassett.
  • Michael R. Heffernan.
  • Michael Joseph Hennessy.
  • Thomas Hennessy.
  • Mark Henry.
  • Richard Holohan.
  • Michael Jordan.
  • Patrick Michael Kelly.
  • Myles Keogh.
  • Hugh Alexander Law.
  • Patrick Leonard.
  • Finian Lynch.
  • Arthur Patrick Mathews.
  • Martin McDonogh.
  • Michael Og McFadden.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Daniel Morrissey.
  • Richard Mulcahy.
  • James E. Murphy.
  • Joseph Xavier Murphy.
  • John Thomas Nolan.
  • Thomas J. O'Connell.
  • Bartholomew O'Connor.
  • Martin Roddy.
  • Timothy Sheehy (West Cork).
  • William Edward Thrift.
  • Michael Tierney.
  • Vincent Joseph White.
  • George Wolfe.
  • Jasper Travers Wolfe.

Níl

  • Frank Aiken.
  • Denis Allen.
  • Gerald Boland.
  • Seán Brady.
  • Robert Briscoe.
  • Daniel Buckley.
  • Archie J. Cassidy.
  • Michael Clery.
  • James Colbert.
  • Eamon Cooney.
  • Thomas Derrig.
  • Eamon de Valera.
  • Frank Fahy.
  • Hugo Flinn.
  • Andrew Fogarty.
  • Seán Hayes.
  • Patrick Hogan (Clare).
  • Patrick Houlihan.
  • Stephen Jordan.
  • Michael Joseph Kennedy.
  • William R. Kent.
  • James Joseph Killane.
  • Mark Killilea.
  • Micheal Kilroy.
  • Seán F. Lemass.
  • Patrick John Little.
  • Ben Maguire.
  • Seán MacEntee.
  • Séamus Moore.
  • Patrick Joseph O'Dowd.
  • Seán T. O'Kelly.
  • William O'Leary.
  • Matthew O'Reilly.
  • Thomas O'Reilly.
  • James Ryan.
  • Martin Sexton.
  • Timothy Sheehy (Tipp.).
  • Patrick Smith.
  • Richard Walsh.
  • Francis C. Ward.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P. Doyle; Níl: Deputies Boland and Allen.
Motion declared carried. Second Stage ordered for June 20.
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