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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Oct 1928

Vol. 26 No. 4

TAKING OF DIVISIONS.

The order of business will be as it is on the Paper. Before entering on the business, I think it desirable to make a brief statement on the taking of Divisions. After I had announced from the Chair the numbers returned to me by the Tellers at the last Division taken on Friday, a number of points were put to me. Of these the only point of order was, it seemed to me, whether a Teller had a right to vote Tá, although he had accepted nomination as Teller for the Níls. I stated at the time that as the point had never arisen before, I had not had an opportunity of considering it, but gave it as my opinion that a Deputy who had acted as a Teller for a particular side should be taken as voting for that side, as the normal practice. The present system of taking Divisions has been in operation since February, 1925. The practice has been to add the Tellers to the numbers passing through the Lobbies on the respective sides, and that practice is based on a minute of a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges held on the 12th February, 1925.

Since Friday I have given further consideration to the questions raised, and I see no reason to alter the opinion I have expressed already. To allow a Teller to vote for a side other than that for which he acted as Teller would, in my judgment, if the action were challenged, result in rendering the Division abortive, and would mean that another Division would have to be taken. The responsibility for conducting the count in the Lobbies rests entirely with the Tellers, who perform that duty on behalf of the House. The Clerks are responsible only for the records of the names of the Deputies voting, but the Tellers are responsible for the correctness of the numbers. The Chair is concerned only with the record of the numbers as presented to the Chair on the sheet signed by the Tellers. When, therefore, the Tellers have agreed on the numbers and have signed the Tellers' Sheet, the Chair must, unless a point of order is raised before the figures have been announced to the House, declare the result to be as found by the Tellers, and announce the decision of the House accordingly. A point of order as to any alleged irregularity in the taking of a Division must be made before the figures have been announced by the Chair, and if any such point should be upheld, the only power possessed by the Chair is to order a fresh Division. I might add that it has been already ruled that if a Deputy votes inadvertently in the wrong Lobby, there is no power in the Chair to remedy the error. Once the figures have been announced the Division is complete, and the decision of the House must be declared accordingly.

I submit there were two questions.

Before Deputy Cooney puts any point to me, I should say that I made this statement so that the position regarding the taking of Divisions would be clear on future occasions. I cannot go back now on the question raised on Friday, beyond repeating that when Tellers present to the Chair a sheet signed by all of them showing the numbers, the Chair has no power to alter the numbers so shown. Does that meet the Deputy's point?

You will not permit me to raise the point.

I do not want to go into the question of Friday again, for it is a healthy and desirable practice that incidents should be regarded as fully concluded in themselves.

Can I put a hypothetical question?

Would it be in order for a Deputy acting as a Teller to ask the Clerk how the voting stands before he indicates how he is going to vote? That is what happened on Friday.

A point of order is a point upon which the Chair can give a decision. The Chair is not concerned with what Deputies say to one another or to the Clerk. A Teller is entitled to know before he signs the Tellers' sheet, and he must know, what the figures are. Nobody, I presume, would dream of withholding from a Teller what the figures are. The Deputy is confusing the question of a Deputy who is voting in the ordinary way with that of a Teller. The normal procedure is that the Teller should vote on the side for which he has opted to tell. Then the other question would not arise.

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