I move:—
That this House is of opinion, having regard to the inadequacy of the provision at present made for widows and for orphans bereft of their breadwinners, and to the desirability of removing all stigma of pauperism in such cases, that the establishment of a scheme of insurance to provide pensions and allowances for widows and orphans would be desirable, and accordingly requests the Executive Council to prepare and present to the House a report upon such schemes of insurance and estimates of the cost.
I know of no subject with which the time of the Dáil could be better occupied. This subject is one which has been considered and dealt with in many countries, and I think it would be desirable that the House should have an opportunity of hearing some of the history of schemes of this kind in many other countries where they have been the subject of consideration and where legislation in their favour has been enacted for a number of years. As long ago as 1919 forty of the United States had schemes of this kind passed into law. The State of Missouri led the way in that work by establishing a committee to control the boarding out of children with their own mothers, and this is true of many other countries also. During the last four or five years we have had, very often, comparisons made between Denmark and this country. Denmark is a small country, largely agricultural, and has been very often compared with Ireland in the matter of necessity for legislation. Denmark has had a scheme of this kind since 1914, showing that a small country can be very often a pioneer in schemes of great national importance. In Denmark a woman with four children, even having property to the value of £350, comes within the terms of the State scheme that has been prepared for dealing with such cases. They have aimed in that country at preventing destitution rather than tackling destitution when it has occurred, as is shown by the provision that people with a certain amount of property are entitled to benefit under this scheme.
In that country, the cost of the scheme is shared between the State and the local authority equally. Similar schemes have been prepared and carried into law in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. These countries have the great benefit of such schemes for many years. The same thing applies to many other countries such as British Columbia, New Zealand and Hungary. In one country, Western Australia, no direct legislation has been enacted for this purpose but the matter is provided for in another fashion. This extract from a report by the officers in charge of the Children's Department will show that: "It is considered by the officers of the State Children's Department that the system that they have provided as an alternative has a beneficial effect on social conditions in Western Australia and, as a consequence, there are few delinquent children in industrial schools." In England, and the northern portion of this country, a similar scheme was enacted in 1926 and since that time provision has been made for the payment of ten shillings per week for the widow, five shillings for the eldest child, and three shillings for each younger child. For some years a number of people in this city, and in other portions of the country, have been seeking to attract attention to the need for a scheme of this kind and, though they have not got very far in the matter of attracting general support, with a view to having the issue raised in an assembly like this, up to the present, they have had practical sympathy with their proposals demonstrated in various directions all over the country. As long ago as 1919 the following resolution was passed by several public bodies in this country:
"That the time has arrived when the burden imposed by the poor law system should be lightened by the establishment of adequate State pensions for widows and orphans and calls for immediate action to this effect."
The provincial press, at that time, favourably commented on the proposals and a meeting in Limerick city presided over by the Mayor endorsed the proposal as well as a similar meeting in Cork. Some years ago the matter was discussed at the international Labour conference at Berne and the Irish Labour representatives were prominent in putting forward demands in this direction at that assembly.
The idea of this motion is to bring up this matter for consideration by the responsible national authority. There are very many reasons that could be advanced why this matter was not attended to up to the present, but there is, in my opinion, a very clear case for asking the Executive Council to go into this matter very fully and examine the whole question with a view to seeing what suitable schemes could be adopted for the benefit of the most deserving section of the people of this country. When the motion was originally tabled the press suggested that it was a matter on which the party which I belong to should take the initiative, that it was our duty to prepare a scheme of this kind and to submit it to the House.
Unfortunately, we have not the opportunity of getting the details and the information that would be necessary for submitting a scheme and, as is well known, no private member of this House has any right to submit a Bill involving financial considerations. The whole matter would be ruled out on the grounds that no provision was made for power of that kind being exercised by private Deputies. This, then, is the alternative, and it suggests that the whole question should be examined with a view to seeing what could be done in that direction.
We have some information as to how many people the scheme would affect. In August, 1919, we had 3,233 widows with two or more children getting outdoor relief. The poor law administration in 1916 cost £1,400,000, and widows and orphans were responsible for a big proportion of that expenditure. We had at that time 4,000 children in Irish work houses and 2,500 boarded out; we had 1,000 in poor law schools. Industrial schools cost £176,000 and reformatories £19,000. The figures are altered somewhat, and recently we had information conveyed by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, in answer to a question by Deputy Byrne. That question was put last week, and the Minister said that from the returns supplied by the local authorities concerned the answer to the first part of the question was 6,973, and the total amount paid during the year ended 31st March, 1928, was £118,600. I mention these figures in order to show that there are very large numbers in the country who would be affected by this scheme. It is most desirable that everything possible should be done by the national authority to remove the taint of pauperism and give dignity and decency to unfortunate people bereft of their breadwinners as a result of the visitation of death to the home.
Some little provision has been made under the Workmen's Compensation Act for widows and orphans whose breadwinners have been taken away, but that Act affects only a small number of people. The number of breadwinners killed in the course of their duties is small in comparison with the number who die in their homes and who leave large numbers of women and children dependents quartered on the local funds. I speak with some knowledge on this subject because, as a member of a local authority, I know of no more unhappy position than that of the unfortunate women and children who have to seek assistance from a local authority. I know of no more degrading or demoralising system, and I would like very much if some alternative could be found. I desire to direct attention to the large number of people who have put up with poverty in its worst form rather than look for outdoor relief or charity in other forms. We have made provision for dealing with the welfare of the people in many respects; we have considered many matters that will tend to improve the position of the people in one direction or another. Now the time has come when the biggest blot that we have upon our social system ought to be removed.
I have mentioned certain figures in order to show that this proposition is not as alarming as some people would imagine. I realise that the financial aspect of the question, the provision of funds, will present some difficulty, but I submit that when the present charges in the matter of home assistance, the maintenance of large numbers in county homes, maintenance in industrial schools, and the amount paid out by charitable organisations are considered, you will have a very big set-off against any charges that this proposed scheme will entail. You will have in addition a position created in which you will have lifted a great number of respectable people out of the rut of pauperism, and you will have given them a dignified status that another House many years ago conferred on our old age pensioners.
I have had experience for some years of the hopelessness of doing anything useful for children who are reared in institutions like county homes. Occasionally people go out of such institutions and do well, but generally the environment in institutions like that is calculated, in my opinion, to injure the future of a child. The children are kept in an atmosphere that is not at all good for them, and very often they become the failures that we see in different walks of life in this country. I agree that often industrial schools do very good work, but we have an alarming number of failures amongst the children turned out by industrial schools. I suggest that this whole scheme would show its good effects in every phase of the life of this country if it were tackled by responsible authorities.
As long ago as 1919-20 very prominent members of this House gave their support to a similar demand. The democratic programme of the First Dáil has special application to this whole question. The principle article of that programme has been often quoted in this House in support of arguments advanced for the benefit of the poor. It has particular application to this motion, because it says that it shall be the duty of the Government of the Republic to make provision for the physical and mental and spiritual well being of the children. This is really a matter affecting the children, because it is the future generation of this country that will have to be looked to if the progress and development that are hoped for, and that are indicated along the lines of our recent legislation, are going to materialise. At the 1918 General Election forty-five candidates holding different political views accorded their support to the demand, and a large number of public bodies also supported the case.
We have recently had an endorsement of this proposal from the Poor Law Commission. The Poor Law Commission went into the whole question of poor law reform in this country and they said in their report that the information that was made available to them in connection with the people who were concerned caused them to stand definitely for it and that they were entirely in favour of a scheme of this kind. I feel that there is an unanswerable case for this motion and that a preliminary to the establishment of a scheme of this kind is to get an examination into the costs and that the fit and proper authority to make that examination with the information at its disposal is the Executive Council of the Saorstát. The sympathy for the proposal has come from various quarters and that sympathy has been shown time and again. It can be demonstrated properly by a full discussion of this motion and by the desire to hammer out a scheme as a result of this motion.
We have provided for the improvement of livestock in this country. We have provided for the development of industrial power in the country. We have provided for better educational facilities but we have forgotten entirely up to the present the large number of people who are victims of the unhappy poor law system that obtains in the country at the moment. Nothing that we can do in any direction will be more deserving than the work that this motion deals with. It is laying the foundations of a population that will be self-respecting, dignified and decent, in so far as this State can make them so—providing for the health of the people as well as their welfare generally. We have, at the present time, the unhappy position that as a result of poverty in the homes, as a result of the natural reluctance of the people to avail themselves of the charity that the local public bodies very often grudgingly give them, we have a large number of people whose health and well-being suffer considerably.
I would submit that this country would be capable of bearing the cost of the scheme. I submit that the set off that will be provided by a reduction in what is paid in other directions will largely make up the expense of a scheme of this kind. I hope that the Dáil will agree to the principle that the time has arrived when the five or six thousand people who are now in receipt of home assistance can be taken out of that position and be given the status that the old age pensioners have enjoyed for a number of years. I do not want to discuss the merits of a particular scheme. In most countries, the central authority is the tax-bearing authority in a scheme of this kind. In England and in the North of Ireland, the scheme provided for under the Act of 1926 has been a contributory one.
While I am not anxious to discuss the merits or demerits of a particular scheme, I am anxious that this matter should be dealt with practically, and that we should have consideration from the responsible authority for some scheme tending to bring about the tremendous improvement that can be brought about as a result of it. After all, we are concerned altogether with the people of this country, and nothing that we can do towards enacting laws for the regulation of affairs in this country will go as far as the laws that will be calculated to bring a certain measure of comfort into the homes of the people. A measure of this kind will bring a certain measure of self-reliance and a certain amount of contentment as a result of the fact that the people are regarded as the care of the State, and that the State is concerning itself with improving the lot of each person who is in the position of being dependent on some other avenue— some undesirable avenue—at the present moment for her maintenance. The Dáil, in my opinion, can do no bigger work, and no more important work than giving their careful consideration to this matter. If the result of it will be that this matter becomes one of practical politics, then it will have advanced tremendously, and the results that will follow from it will be demonstrated very clearly in a short time.
It is very fortunate, I think, that we have here now representatives of all the parties who were concerned in the democratic programme of the first Dáil. This matter will have a particular interest for them all. Certain expressions of opinion that prominent members of this House gave voice to a few years ago will, I think, ensure that this motion will be very fully considered by this House. I submit the case for this motion, conscious of the fact that it is one of tremendous importance, if not of tremendous urgency. A huge number of people in the State are looking forward to this matter with considerable interest. I am satisfied that the Dáil can do no better work than consider the matter carefully. I feel sure that if this motion leads to the establishment of a scheme of this kind it will be a monument to the work of the Dáil and will live long after this Dáil and the memory of it have passed away.