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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 31 Oct 1928

Vol. 26 No. 10

PRIVATE DEPUTIES' BUSINESS. - LEGAL PRACTITIONERS (QUALIFICATION) BILL, 1928—SECOND STAGE (Resumed).

Rinne mé tagairt Dia hAoine seo tharainn do'n méid oibre atá á dhéanamh i dtíortha eile i Roinn na hEorpa ar son teangacha na dtíortha seo agus dubhras go mba cheart dúinn annseo rud éigin do dhéanamh ar son ár dteangan féin—treora do thabhairt do na daoine, ionnus go mbéidh níos mó measa acu ar a dteanga ná mar atá.

Támuid ag cloisteáil le cuig no sé blian anois leis an rí-rá ins na páipéirí nuachta, nách cheart an oiread san cúraim do thabhairt do'n teangain agus nách cheart an oiread san airgid do chaitheamh uirri. Níor chualas trácht ariamh ar thír ar bith in a ndéantar socrú ar chúrsaí oideachais do réir chainnt na bpáipéirí. Cuir i gcás Alban, tír níos léigheannta na tír ar bith eile. San tír sin, fágtar ceist an oideachais faoi na daoine sna hOllscoileanna, faoi na múinteóirí agus faoi dhaoine a bhfuil baint acu le cúrsaí oideachais. San tír seo, gach duine a bhfuil barúil aige fhéin gur sgríobhnóir é sgríobhann sé chuig na páipéirí ag cur masla ar an dteangain. Mar gheall ar sin, agus chun a theasbáint do na páipéirí nuachta, chó maith leis na daoine léigheannta, go bhfuilimíd in dá riríbh, is ceart dúinn pé congnamh is féidir linn do thabhairt do'n teangain.

Dubhairt an Teachta Good nár cheart an bhun-cheist nua so do thógaint idir lámhaibh, nar cheart iachall do chur ar na dlígheadóirí leanamhaint leis an dteanga agus í do chur chun cinn. Tá smacht ag an Dáil seo, agus ag an Rialtas ar chúrsaí oideachais. Nuair atá an Dáil agus an Rialtas ag cur isteach ar cheisteanna mar droch-litridheacht agus sláinte na ndaoine agus gach uile rud a bhaíneas le saol na ndaoine, cé'n fá nách mbeadh comhacht ag an Dáil agus ag an Rialtas ar cheisteanna a bhaineas le oideachas?

Támuid-ne in dá ríribh chun rud éigean do dhéanamh ar son sean chultúr an náisiún. Sé sin an deifríocht atá idir na daoine atá i gcoinne an Bhille seo agus na daoine atá ag cuidiú leis. Na daoine do labhair in aghaidh an Bhille seo, ní fheiceann siad go soléir go bhfuil réim nua tagaithe san tír seo, go bhfuil réim an Chaisleáin imithigthe. Tá polasaí nua ann le seacht mbliana anois agus níor cheart dhúinn leanúint leis an bpolasaí sin muna bhfuilimíd in dá ríribh—muna bhfuilimíd ag dul amach agus amach chun é do chur i bhféidhm. Is ceart dhúinn an cuspóir atá romhainn do theasbáint do na daoine, idtreo go dtuigfidh na daoine léigheannta nách bhfuilimíd ag seafóidigh ach go bhfuilimíd lándá ríribh. Ar an abhar san, iarraim ar na Teachtaí do labhair ar son an Bhille seo leanúint leis an obair ar son na teangain. Dá gcuirfí polasaí an Teachta Good i bhféidhm san tír seo, bheadh cead ag gach mac léighinn stuidéir do dhéanamh do réir a thoil fhéin, na h-abhair léighinn go mba mhaith leis glaca idir lámhaibh agus ní bheadh ach aimhreas agus dul-amú i gcúrsaí oideachais. Tá fhios ag gach duine go bhfuil seasmhacht ag teastáil i gcúrsaí oideachais níos géire ná i rud ar bith eile.

Os rud é go bhfuil tús déanta againn, is ceart dúinn leanúint leis an bpolasaí seo. Níor cheart deire do chur leis an obair anois. Is ceart dúinn dul ar aghaidh leis an obair agus an polasaí nua so do chur chun cinn.

Dubhairt an Réamonnach nách ceart an dlí seo do chur i bhféidhm gidh go bhfuil deich mbliana ag na mic léighinn chun an teanga d'foghluim. Deir sé nách leór san. Shaoilfeá gur stróinseirí sinne agus nách Gaedhil sinn ar chor ar bith. Is dócha go bhfuil sé de thuairim ag an Réamonnach agus a leithéid nách Gaedhil iad ach Gaill agus go gceapann siad nách bhfuilimíd i nda riribh annso. Tá deich mbliana ag na mic léighinn dlí chun an Ghaedhilg d'foghluim agus is féidir le abhcóide no le dlígheadóir an cúrsa dlí do chríochnú i gcúig bliana. Tá an teanga dhá mhúineadh i ngach bun-scoil agus i ngach meadhon-scoil sa Stát. Tá súil agam go dtabharfar a thuille aire don teangain sna hOllscoileanna i dtreo nách mbeidh aon leith scéal ag na daoine seo.

Tá ceist eile a bhaineas leis seo. Támuid ag ceapa dlí gach lá beagnach annso agus, ar an abhar san, tá gá le daoine a thabharfadh aire spéisealta do théarmaí dlí—daoine a cuirfeadh aistriú ar na tearmaí dlí agus iad do chur isteach i gcorp dlí an Stát seo. Tá a dhíth orainn, mar gheall ar sin, easba daoine ag a bhuil an Ghaedhilg go líomhtha acu agus go bhfuil eolas acu ar an dlí chun aistriú do dhéanamh ar na tearmaí atá ann fá láthair agus chun tearmaí nua do cheapa. Tá dlithe nua da chur i bhféidhm gach lá, tá tearmaí nua ag teastáil agus tá daoine ag teastáil chun na hoibre seo do dhéanamh.

Rinne na múinteoirí sár-obair ar an dóigh seo. Do chuireadar amach leabhra nua. Do chuireadar i gcló amhráin agus sgéaltaí. Bhí an sprid ceart ag na múinteóirí agus rinneadar a ndícheall. B'é ár dtuairim gurab é sin an rud ceart do dhéanamh i geas na múinteóirí agus táimuid ag féachaint anois iachall do chur ar na dlígheadóirí an rud ceart do dhéanamh. Tá daoine sa Dáil do labhair go hionnsuíoch in aghaidh na teangan. Do chonnacamar an lá nuair a bhiomar ar aon intinn mar gheall ar náisiúntacht agus ní raibh na daoine úd linn. B'fhéidir go bhfeicimíd an lá nuair a bheimíd go léir ar aon intinn arís ní amháin i dtaobh na teangan ach i dthaobh gach rud eile a bhaineas le maitheas na nÉireann.

resumed the Chair.

I am strongly opposed to this measure. I regard with some suspicion the method of its introduction. The Government does not care to face the introduction of the measure, which is nothing short of tyrannical legislation. Therefore, it is left to two popular Deputies on the Government benches to introduce a measure imposing disabilities on the legal profession, a profession which they admit they know very little about, and which they had not the courtesy to consult before they brought in the measure. I hope, therefore, the House will have sufficient common sense to reject the measure at this its Second Reading.

I call this tyrannical legislation because it interferes with the rights of learned bodies to fix a curriculum for their students in whatever way may seem best to them. We hear a great deal of talk from time to time about the tyranny of the British Government over Ireland for 750 years. I want to say this: Let us be careful that now we have the making of our laws in our own hands, we be not accused of oppressive legislation. In my opinion the great mistake is being made of forcing Irish on the people, and, in the case of the legal profession, if this Bill passes, a great and harmful measure will, in my opinion, be forced upon them.

I agree with Deputy Doctor Hennessy in thinking that the half million pounds that is being spent in the teaching of Irish by compulsion would be better spent in improving the economic and social conditions of the people. Deputy Buckley and others were ashamed that anyone would oppose compulsory Irish in the Dáil. On the other hand, I am ashamed that we are spending money in compelling children to attend schools and spending money in compelling them to learn Irish, while some of the schools are in such a condition that children could not possibly learn anything for want of ventilation and warmth, to say nothing of food. Further, the sanitary accommodation in many parts of the country is a disgrace to civilisation and a menace to the health of the young. I say that the money would be better spent in encouraging industry and finding employment for the unemployed and the young people who are leaving the country, as we know, by hundreds every month. The exit from my house abuts almost on the Visa Department of the United States Consul, and three times a week I am faced with the problem of passing some thirty to forty fine young people who want to emigrate to the United States. I say to myself as I pass them: "Why is it necessary that these young people should leave the country? Why are we doing nothing to keep them here?" And again I say: "What is the good of forcing compulsory Irish; what is the good of teaching them Irish when they are emigrating to a country where they will have to seek their bread amongst people of other countries?"

Crocodile tears!

No, thank you. I have been attending the poor for nothing for forty years in hospitals, and I can stand up here with a clean sheet and say that there are no crocodile tears so far as I am concerned. Since I came here I think everyone will admit that I have stood for the social improvement of the people. Someone said that we had not the courage of our convictions. I stand up and say that I have the courage of my convictions, and I am placing them before the Dáil, so I hope there will be no more talk about crocodile tears. I say that the money would be better spent in encouraging industry and finding employment for those people. Someone, I think Deputy Carney, spoke about an ascendancy crowd or an ascendancy gang who were bent on opposing everything that was Irish or against the Gaelicising of the Free State. I want to say, with regard to Trinity College, the institution with which I am concerned, that there has been a Professor of Irish there for many years and for the last twenty or thirty years there has been a Lecturer in Irish, and prizes and sizarships have been given for Irish. There is an Irish society running in the College, of which the Professor of Irish is the head, and the Society is run for the purpose of encouraging the study of the Irish language.

How many students?

I do not know.

There you are.

As I say, I do not know. There is a Gaelic Society there, with a Professor of Irish at its head, encouraging the study of Irish at Trinity College. In the second place I say, with regard to the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons, that at the request of the President of the Gaelic League, twenty-five years ago, we placed Irish as an optional subject on our list, and at a later period Deputy de Valera was appointed an examiner. I want to say that there is no sign there of any ascendancy gang setting their faces against the study of Irish. I am in favour of the teaching of Irish, but what I am opposing at present is the compulsory teaching of Irish. My reasons for opposing this Bill are numerous. In the first place, the legal profession does not seem to have been consulted in the matter. In the second place, it will be a distinct injury to the Law Schools. It was pointed out by one Deputy that at one time we had large numbers of students coming to our Law Schools from other countries. I do not think that it is any harm that they should come here to pursue their legal studies. Their coming here will. undoubtedly, be interfered with if this measure is carried. In the third place. I am sure that it will be harmful to the reciprocity which exists between the Free State and Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In the fourth place, in my opinion, the Dáil has no right to interfere with the education of these students. In the fifth place, there is what I consider the serious blot referred to by Deputy Jasper Wolfe, who pointed out that there was going to be placed on the shoulders of one man the responsibility of saying whether candidates should be allowed to practise the profession of a solicitor, or whether barristers should be allowed to take up their profession at the Bar. That is a serious blot, and I hope it will not be persisted in if this Bill is carried further. Finally, let me add a word to those who have spoken regarding the effect of compulsory Irish upon the unity of the country. I think I am in a position to speak more freely than almost anyone else in this House on what the attitude of the North will be. I read some time ago that the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party had stated that the North must be brought in, either by persuasion or by force of arms. At a later period, last week. I saw some reference made to the necessity of adopting a policy of economic development.

I think the Deputy is wandering a bit.

Am I not at liberty to state that I think that the adoption of this measure will have a very serious effect upon the rest of the country?

That is the point I am going to make, and I am going to say that so far as the barrier between the North and the South exists it is going to be extended now to such a degree that the tie of unity, if it ever did exist very much in the North, is being put further and further away. I do not believe that the North will ever be brought in, either by cajolery or force, but that, if it is to be brought in, it will be brought in by the economic development reaching such a stage that it will seem to the North to be worth their while to come in.

May I ask Deputy Sir James Craig a question? Would be get the quotation in which I said that the North would be brought in by force of arms? I take it that he is referring to me.

Will you please get the quotation?

I could not lay my hands on it just now.

Does Deputy de Valera deny he said it?

Mr. HOGAN

I will get the quotation.

But you will not be serious; you will be only joking.

A DEPUTY

Somebody else will have to say it after you.

I will withdraw the statement if Deputy de Valera states that he never made it. I am very glad to hear it. In my opinion, the policy of compulsory Irish is playing ducks and drakes with primary education. Take the absurdity of the situation as you have it to-day in the answer to the question put by Deputy Good. The answer to his question was that there are 1,240 schools in which, during the infant stage, everything is taught through Irish. Those children are coming at the age of ten and eleven into the senior schools. When they get into the senior schools, I understand the subjects are taught through the medium of English and Irish. It seems to me therefore absurd that these children, who have been taught purely through Irish during the five or six years that they have been attending school, are now to be asked to turn to learn English in order that they will be able to understand the subjects partly taught through English. I want to say that, as far as the secondary schools are concerned, they are trying to do their work. They are trying to follow out the policy of the Minister for Education in very difficult circumstances, even the difficulty of getting teachers.

To leave that subject, I think what we should aim at is efficiency; efficiency in the man who is going forward for any profession, that he is efficient in the particular profession he has chosen. I would very much prefer to have a doctor who could recognise diphtheria at once and inject the curative antitoxin immediately, but who could not speak Irish, than a man who would be very slow about making a diagnosis and in giving treatment, but who had a knowledge of Irish. I frankly admit, however, that an efficient doctor who could also speak Irish would secure my admiration and vote if necessary. I would give my vote to the man who could speak Irish if he were as efficient as the other man. I readily admit that it is desirable that solicitors, barristers and doctors who are working in Irish-speaking districts should have a knowledge of Irish so that they could enter into conversation freely with the native speakers of Irish, but it is quite a different matter to make it compulsory that everyone should have this knowledge.

It has been said or suggested—and I do not like the attitude—from the Benches opposite that anyone who did not want to learn Irish should clear out of the country. I do not think that is a fair attitude. At all events it is not the attitude of the late Mr. Arthur Griffith. Mr. Griffith said that there was room for everybody, room and work for all sections of the people in the country, and that they should get a fair chance. That is what I claim. I say that if I do not believe in compulsory Irish I should have a perfect right to say so and have a position in the country just as much as if I were a strong advocate for it. I might be persuaded to a different point of view by Deputy Derrig if I understood a single word he said. Unfortunately you have not made it compulsory that Deputies in this House should understand Irish, and therefore a great deal of the eloquence is lost upon me. Possibly, as I say, I might be persuaded to the opposite view if I understood it. I ask the House to use its common sense; to reject this measure now in its Second Stage, and to leave it to the authorities who are responsible for the professional education of the students to decide the curriculum that is best suited to anybody taking up a professional career.

I rise to support the Bill. In doing so I want to say that it is my opinion that this House will be only carrying to their logical conclusion the assertions and the proclamations made by the House on previous occasions when the Dáil made Irish the official language of the State. In doing that they did not say that the Irish language was the official language for that portion of the country where there were Irish speakers, but that it was the official language of the State. That is a point that Deputy Sir James Craig and other people really do not take cognisance of at all. A great deal has been said about the injustice of making the legal profession learn Irish. I do not think it is any injustice. Nobody has shown that there is an injustice. I I think it is the duty of the Government, and of the House, once they proclaimed that the Irish language is the official language of the State, to see that the legal profession, who live not exactly by the law, but on the laws which are made here—they live on the law in the institutions of the State, which are the courts—are proficient, and by proficiency I mean that they are qualified to take up a case in all its phases, and everything in relation to the law, and that they would be able to deal with it in a proper manner. I am surprised that there is any opposition at all to the measure, because everybody who has come here has supported the Constitution in which Irish is stated to be the national language. Still they cannot see that in the outposts of the Government, which are the courts, that the interpreters of the law in those courts should have a knowledge of the language. I think it is a most illogical position for anybody to take up to say that the members of the legal profession need not have a knowledge of Irish.

I wonder would the Deputy read the whole of Article 4.

Deputy Professor Thrift can do that. Deputy Sir James Craig has mentioned what the British Government did in this country. I think it is time that Sir James Craig and other people realised that the British Government is not here now, that what is here is an Irish Government that has been built on the graves of the men of 1916, the men of 1920 and 1921. We are living in a State that is founded on the principles that were responsible for those days, and it is well that everybody should realise that. I do not think that this House, or any Government of this country, wants to penalise anybody so far as the language is concerned. It is not a penalty, any more than it is a penalty to live in the country which has a national language. Consequently, I think that the House is actually obliged to see that the legal profession is fully qualified in this matter to carry on the business of the State.

Deputy Jasper Wolfe said that if this Bill were passed, it would, in his opinion, be passed through lack of moral courage on the part of some Deputies, who really wanted to vote against the Bill but were afraid to do so. If Deputy Wolfe scented a lack of moral courage somewhere, he was not far wrong. There is some moral cowardice somewhere in connection with this matter, and I would be inclined to agree with Deputy Sir James Craig that the Executive Council is guilty of moral cowardice. I think that this measure should have been brought in by the Government, that it was their duty to bring it in, and that they ought not to have left it to some private members. However, they did not do that, and it is all the same to us who brings it in. Probably moral cowardice is also shown by some people, particularly some members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, those people who have subscribed to the Cumann na nGaedheal programme, which lays down certain things with regard to the Irish language. I do not know, of course. I am not concerned with the political programme of Cumann na nGaedheal or of anybody else. I know what value to place upon a political programme. But if these people had moral courage they would have said, when they were going into the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, that they would not stand by the language when they are not prepared to stand by it now, and apparently they are not.

Deputy Cooper told us of his attempt to learn Irish and said that he failed. Why did he fail? I have not the smallest doubt but that if the Irish language was at that time compulsory in the professions. Deputy Cooper would not be in the humiliating position in which he now finds himself in not being able to understand the Irish language. The same might be said of Deputy J.J. Byrne. I am afraid that the Minister for Justice took the wind out of Deputy Byrne's sails badly. I thought that Deputy Byrne was speaking for the Benchers, but apparently the Minister for Justice did not agree with him. Deputy Byrne said that amongst those who think intellectually "it is folly to interfere in matters in which one has no knowledge." I think we will all agree with that, and I think it was folly on the part of Deputy Byrne to interfere in this debate, because he has no knowledge of the subject. Apparently he did not grasp the significance of the fact that the Irish language is the official language of the State. It would be quite possible for this to happen, that a son of Deputy J.J. Byrne's might be in this House representing Dublin, and, as the worthy son of a worthy father, we would not like him to be humiliated through not knowing the Irish language. He would probably be following the same learned profession, and I think Deputy Byrne ought to see to it that the Irish language is compulsory so that his son would not be in that humiliating position when it came to his time to represent Dublin City in the Dáil.

With regard to the point that the learning of the Irish language is a handicap upon students, if Deputy Sir James Craig and other Deputies would only look up the results of the scholarship examinations through the country, they would find that those people who scored the highest in Irish were in almost every case the highest in everything. That was our experience in Roscommon. We had two sets of scholarships under the County Council, and, in every case, those who scored highest in Irish were highest in everything else. I am not one of those people who say that the Irish language tends to broaden the minds of the Irish people more than anything else, and these results I speak of are probably due to the fact that these children have better brains than the others. But it was not a handicap in any shape or form to have them taught Irish, and the same applies to the young children with whom Deputy Sir James Craig has so much sympathy. I am the father of some of those children with regard to whom Deputy Good asked a question, and I am proud to say that those infants are learning the Irish language: not alone that, but they are learning the English language as well. Deputy Sir James Craig is apparently astray about that. He says that those infants between the ages of six and eight are learning nothing but Irish, and when they come to the age of fifteen or sixteen-they have to learn English. That is not a correct statement.

I did not say that.

I am sorry if I am misquoting him, but I thought that was what he said.

The debate upon this Bill will do a large amount of good. It will act as an advertisement for the Irish language. It has got everybody talking; and when you have everybody talking it is an advertisement. Another very good thing about it is this, that it will show us the alignment which we would have had in this House had there not been a civil war. The result of the vote will show the alignment and the line of demarcation that there should be in this country and that should be the natural line of demarcation. I have said practically everything that I wanted to say, except to refer to my friend Deputy Hennessey. Deputy Hennessey was so zealous to have this Bill defeated that he really could not wait to vote against it, but defeated it through the columns of the daily Press. I think it would only be fair, in view of his exertions, that the House should give him some title. I would suggest that he should be called the Knight of the Firbolgs.

The last of the Firbolgs.

He told us that we have no native language.

Very little of it.

Very little of it, apparently. The reason he assigns for that is that, because the Firbolgs, from whom he is directly descended—and a very good specimen he is—were defeated by the Milesians, and so on, we have really no native language at all. I am not sure that Deputy Hennessey has gone back far enough. He should have gone back a little further and told us that these Milesians were descended from Magog, son of Japheth, the famous son of Noah, and that the man from whom they were descended was the inventor of letters. If Deputy Hennessey had told us of that, I think he would have confused himself so much that he would hardly have written his letter at all. However, Deputy Hennessey seems to think that because his ancestors, the Firbolgs, were defeated by the Milesians we have no native language at all. It may be interesting to Deputy Hennessey to know that if we go back to the days of the Assyrian Empire——

I will go back to the Garden of Eden.

That is indecent.

Well, the Censorship Bill has not been passed yet.

If the Deputy would come along to the King's Inns——

Try to get as low down as the King's Inns.

In any case the Irish language was, as far as we can trace the matter in history, the language of the Milesians. Of course it has been improved and adorned since those days. I am sure that Deputy Hennessey admires the ornaments, but he does not see the use of it.

Gaelic Baile Atha Cliath.

I know that when the vote is taken it will show the alignment and the line of demarcation between these people, and that would have been the proper alignment between the different Parties in this House if there had been no civil war.

I should like to support this Bill that has been introduced by Deputy Conlon and Deputy MacFadden. I think that they have done a good service, not alone to this House but to the Irish language and the cause of its revival, by bringing this Bill in. I would like to say another thing, ma's maith, is mithid é. The Bill has been criticised on the grounds that the Deputies who introduced it know little or nothing about law, and because of that they were not competent to introduce a Bill to deal with this noble and honourable profession, as it was described by one Deputy. As the Minister for Local Government put it the other night, the people who criticise this Bill know little of the spirit of the Irish nation or little of the spirit of this people. We have come to the parting of the ways in this country. It has been long delayed, but the sooner these people, who seem to have formed an alliance in this country to endeavour to retard the progress of the language, realise that when the Minister for Local Government spoke of the spirit of this people what he meant was the changing of the tide that has resulted in bringing to this country, during the last five or six years, the triumph of the Irish language. The sooner they realise and accept that the better it will be for everyone, and particularly for the section that still clings to the traditions of the British Empire Deputy Cooper said that by proceeding too hurriedly we might easily do harm. To whom? This Bill is not going to inflict any undue hardship on anybody. I agree with certain Deputies who said that it did not go far enough. Certainly it is not going to inflict any undue hardship on anyone in this State. The only people Deputy Cooper is afraid it is going to do harm to are the people who still cherish in their hearts the return to this country of the British Empire and all that it stands for—not that it is gone. He said that if the Bill was passed the English would be given a good excuse for breaking off the reciprocal arrangement by which Irish barristers could be admitted to the English Bar, and vice versa, without further examination. There has been a lot of talk of toleration in this House. There has been a lot of talk of what England would or might do if such a thing happened. I think it is nearly time that we got away from that point of view. I think it is nearly time this House should adopt an attitude of self-respect, stand on its own legs, and not mind what England or any other country would do.

I think it would be only right that Deputy Cooper, or anyone else who has information, should furnish to this House, before this debate concludes, an estimate of the number of students who would be really affected, even supposing that the reciprocal arrangement was dropped. The Deputy stated further, that the sole qualification for entering any profession should be fitness to enter it. I agree, but there should be another qualification, that for any citizen the real qualification should be a knowledge of the language of this country, and I would go so far as to say that no position in the gift of the Civil Service or of the Government, no position in the gift of any local authority, should be given to anyone who has not a competent knowledge of the Irish language. Either we mean what we say about it or we do not. Either the money spent on the language by this Government and State for the past five or six years has been spent with the intention of saving it or it has not. Let us be honest. If there is no intention of putting the language on its feet and bringing it back to the position it once occupied, making it the spoken language of the people, the sooner we know that the better, and the sooner we stop fooling about it the better. I believe there is an intention to save it. I believe we will save it, and because of that I say, as I said before, that we have come to the parting of the ways, that we must make an effort to ensure that the Irish language will not be treated with the scorn and contempt with which it has been treated, and is treated, even at the present time by a certain section of the people in this State, after all these years of war and turmoil for a principle.

Deputy Redmond and Deputy Good spoke a lot about compulsion, and I think Deputy Matthews and some other Deputies backed them up in that argument. Deputy Redmond said that compulsion was not the proper means of securing that this country will be Irish-speaking again; that it would make the language more obnoxious to the people. Well, this statement may cause a little bit of a shock amongst some people who speak so much about tolerance. There is no lack of moral courage here as far as I am concerned. As the Minister for Finance stated in the course of the debate, the Irish language has been pushed into its present deplorable position by long-continued persecution on the part of an alien Government. It has been put into its present position by penalties inflicted on the people during four or five hundred years of alien rule. It has been put in its present position, and brought to the gateway of death, because of material disadvantages imposed on it by an alien Government. I say that we have now got a native Government, in twenty-six counties of this nation anyhow, and, if necessary, the very same methods that were used to kill the Irish language should be used to bring it back. I say that the people of this State, and the members of this House, should be quite prepared to stand over that. Even if it is found necessary, and if there is such an organised opposition to it as to make the efforts being made by this Government and by the Dáil inoperative, I say that we should not be a bit ashamed or afraid to go back to the same methods that were made to kill it, in order to restore it, and they would restore it quickly. Deputy Redmond described the Bill as inconsistent and unnecessary; that it did not go far enough. I agree that it does not go far enough; I believe that the age limit as too low. In my opinion it should be 18 instead of 16 years. I quite agree with Deputies who urged that for the engineering profession, the medical profession, and even for the Dáil, after a certain year a knowledge of Irish should be essential for membership. I believe if every public position is given only to those who have acquired a knowledge of the Irish language, and if people are made to wake up to the fact —especially the section that is organising opposition—that there has been a 1916, and that there has been a 1921 in this country—if they are made wake up to the sacrifices made during these years to ensure that a Gaelic Ireland would arise out of the chaos and ruin— then the logical conclusion we may draw is that Irish will be absolutely essential for every public position, and even for membership of the Dáil and Seanad. I do not see why anybody should be a bit afraid to visualise that prospect.

Several Deputies have spoken about the legal profession and the terrible hardship that we are going to inflict on the members of that profession; the awful insult that was imposed on them when we did not consult them before the Deputies opposite introduced this Bill. We were told what terrible consequences it would have; that you would have everything Irish, and all this sort of bosh. Accidentally in the Library I came across a speech delivered by Charles Stewart Parnell at the National Club in Dublin after the Kilkenny election. His opinion of the legal profession stands as my opinion of it to-day, and perhaps it would be no harm to quote his opinion: "The Bar of Ireland was at one time a patriotic body, but it undoubtedly ceased to be a patriotic body when we lost our independence, and it will never again be a patriotic body until a future Irish nation shows these legal gentlemen that the only way to preferment is through the hearts of their fellow-countrymen." This Bill is going to show them that the only way is through the hearts and aspirations of their fellow-countrymen. I do not see why any self-respecting, sane Irishman, with any hope for the future of this country, with any belief in a Gaelic nation, should object to the terms of the Bill.

Deputy Good, in the course of his attack on the principle of the language, said that at least five years' notice should be given of the introduction of the Bill. Deputy Good is a man of intelligence; he is a man who occupies a high commercial position in this country; a man who undoubtedly can read and does read the newspapers; he has been in the Dáil for a considerable number of years, and I am sure that Deputy Good will realise—I am certain that he does realise, but for some reason or other he has omitted to say it— that the policy of this Government for the past six years has been a policy tending towards the Gaelicisation of this part of the country anyhow. Deputy Good knows very well that the other principal political party in this country has always stood for the same principle. On that principle at least there is unity, and Deputy Good should not try to delude the members of the Dáil with the statement that at least five years' notice of this Bill should be given. I may say six years' notice, and even twelve years' notice, has been given since the Proclamation of Independence in 1916. Due notice has been given, and, if the people principally concerned have not observed that notice, it is their funeral.

There is another point which was mentioned by a Deputy here. The Chief Justice of Saorstát Eireann some years back lectured before the Irish Bar on the policy of the Government. There has really then been no lack of notice given to these gentlemen, and if they are kicking against the traces now and will not take their beating like men, I, for one, will not have any sympathy with them. There cannot be any complaint on the score that they have not got notice.

Deputy Good proceeded to say that more was being made of the Irish-speaking problem than was really justified. That is the sort of talk that we heard in this country for many years back, and it is the sort of talk that we hope we will not hear again in the present position of things. Deputy Good, as well as many other Deputies who have spoken in the same strain, should realise that there is not enough made of the Irish-speaking problem. As Deputy Clery reminded the Dáil, if something is not done very quickly there will not be any Irish-speaking problem to be faced in a few years. If some great effort is not now made, all hope of saving the language will be shattered. The fountainhead of the Irish language, the last stronghold of the Irish language, is the Gaeltacht, and if the Gaeltacht goes then the true Irish language goes. You may have the Irish language as it is spoken now in the cities and towns, but you will not have the real inspiration direct from the source. That is the real fact of the matter, and yet we hear this talk about too much being made of the Irish-speaking problem and we are advised that we should not devote all the attention that we are devoting to the subject. All that sort of talk is so much bunkum.

The Deputy said that it was a hardship on the young men of the middle classes whose custom it was to be educated in schools outside the Saorstát for generations. I do not know why that was the custom. Certainly Deputy Craig, Deputy Alton and Deputy Tierney, and those others mixed up in the teaching profession here, should be able to satisfy Deputy Good that there are in the twenty-six counties of what was once known as Ireland, schools as good, if not better, than any of the schools to which they could send their middle-class children, as they have been doing, according to what we are now told, for generations. There are here, in the twenty-six counties, schools in which middle-class children will receive a really Gaelic, national training, and schools to which, if Deputy Conlon will only extend the Bill, they will be compelled to send their children, and in which those very children will be made good citizens of Ireland and not good citizens of an empire.

Deputy Anthony sent up a lonely banshee type of wail about the working-class children suffering severely from this policy. He made a grand phrase in the course of his statement, when he said that this generation was being sacrificed educationally. The results of tuition in the schools, as the last Deputy who spoke mentioned, have certainly disproved that. The teaching of Irish is no more a hardship on the working-class children than it is on anybody else. The teaching of the Irish language, so far from being detrimental to their education in other respects, has improved their education. I come from an English-speaking district where the Irish language went down with the Gaelic nation at the Battle of Kinsale. I have visited several schools in my own district during the past four or five days, and I have discussed this question with the teachers in those schools. I have submitted Deputy Anthony's statement to them, and also the statement of another Deputy, to the same effect. Those statements declared that the Irish language was injuring the education of the children. In every case the responsible teachers, who have years of experience and have taught the Irish language in those schools, especially since 1923, assured me that far from doing any harm to the intellects of the children, and far from being detrimental to their education, the teaching of Irish has broadened their views, and has done no harm whatsoever to them. That, I think, deals with the complaints made about the results of Irish teaching and the hardship that is being done to the children, according to Deputy Anthony.

There is another aspect, and that is that the boy of to-day is the citizen of to-morrow, and if that boy is not given a good sound training he is not going to be a good, sound citizen. The only way we can achieve a true Gaelic State is by ensuring that the boys and girls of the present generation will have a sound and a thorough knowledge of the Irish language. If it is necessary—I do not believe it is—I will mention to Deputy Anthony that we would be quite prepared—at least I would—to exclude Latin from the curriculum of the schools, or any other language for that matter, in order to make certain that the Irish language would become the spoken language of the people in the next generation.

I think the Minister for Finance struck the right note when he said that they were not going to hold up the language policy for the sake of the convenience of a few individuals. I believe that these few individuals represent only the minority in this country, who still cherish in their hearts the return of the British Empire. If there is any attempt to hold up the language policy, I say that the three big parties in the country standing for the language should resist that attempt with every available resource in the hands of the Government Party, and the other parties combined.

Deputy J.J. Byrne, in his usual melodramatic style, questioned what particular qualifications Deputies Conlon and MacFadden had to force this curriculum on a great profession. He said that the great services to this nation rendered by the legal profession entitled them to better treatment, and all that sort of stuff. Many other things were forced on the people of Ireland and they were not consulted. The legal profession, as was indicated in my quotation from Parnell, must wake up to the fact—and Deputy Byrne must, too—that it is not going to be made a sort of close borough, and it is not going to escape. Those who now say that this is a hardship being inflicted on the children should endeavour to realise the true situation. The sooner they wake up to facts the better.

Now I come to the shining star of the whole bunch. Deputy Jasper Wolfe, who painted a dismal picture of what was going to happen in this unfortunate partitioned country if this Bill is allowed to pass. He told us that he tried every Irish speaker he knew to translate a name, and he failed until he came to Deputy Gearoid O'Sullivan. I am certain that Deputy O'Sullivan, who knows the country from which Deputy Wolfe comes, will be able to bear me out when I say that Deputy Wolfe must not have tried very many Irish speakers or otherwise he would have got a translation.

But you have said that the Irish language died at the Battle of Kinsale.

I said I came from an English-speaking district.

The Deputy was born in America.

I think that what Deputy Mullins said was that the Gaelic nation died at the Battle of Kinsale—not the Irish language.

The Battle of Kinsale was some time back.

Who started it, I wonder?

As to Deputy Jasper Wolfe, he discoursed about a lot of things. He stated that only on two occasions in forty years did he meet people who could not speak English, and that they had long since gone to their eternal reward. Might I express the hope that Deputy Jasper Wolfe had nothing to do with sending these people to their eternal reward, because it would be a terrible thing if he had. Now I want to come to his statement that he always stood for the unity of Ireland from Fair Head to the Mizen, and he argued in his speech that the Bill making Irish obligatory for legal practitioners was a Bill against the unity of Ireland. In passing I wish to say that Deputy Jasper Wolfe has influence with people who stand for the partitioning of this nation, and if he spends his time in working against that partition and in endeavouring to convert them to a united Ireland he would spend it better than he is doing in attacking those who stand for the revival of the Irish language.

One time there was a great Cardinal and he stated a thing that should be recognised as a fact, a true statement of the position that exists in Ireland to-day, and that was Cardinal Manning. He said that the garrison must give place to the nation. Deputy Wolfe should recognise, even at this late hour, that there are men in this country who are determined to see. whilst it lies in their power, that the garrison will give place to the nation. Certainly Deputy Jasper Wolfe will not be attacking, joking and sneering at the revival of the Irish language.

As to the cheap sneers that he indulged in at the expense of the Party on these benches, I am not going to refer to them except to say that he has no grounds whatsoever for most of them. I hope we will hear no more of them: and it is a sorry day for the country when Deputy Jasper Wolfe can get up and sneer at the men on these benches. Deputy Matthews was troubled because the Bill annoyed a large section of the nation. He wanted respect for the other fellow's opinion. We have heard a good deal about intolerance and having respect for the other fellow's position. There has been enough of that cheap sneering at the people of this country for the last sixty years. We have had enough of it for five generations. We have done it but the other fellow has not respected our opinions. It is about time we had done with it. If the other fellow does not respect our nation, and if the chief organ in the Press of the other fellow does not respect our nation, and if the other fellow's platform orator has no respect for our nation, the sooner the other fellow falls into line with the people the better it will be in the end for the other fellow.

Deputy Cole exhibited the typical slave mind which still lives on in this country when he said that we in this country should realise the blessing which the English language conferred upon us by enabling Irishmen who went abroad to secure employment at once as a result of their knowledge of what he calls a universal language. The Deputy stated that the language teaching was estimated to cost £500,000 a year. That is half a million pounds. The only sad thing I see about it is that it is not enough. The recommendations of the Gaeltacht Commission, if put into force, would cost more than that. Deputy Cole will some day or other have seventy-five fits in three minutes if the Government ever get the moral courage to put the recommendations of the Gaeltacht Commission into force.

Deputy Sir James Craig also spoke of the tyrannical legislation and oppressive tyranny. The unity of Ireland and fair-play also came into his speech. All I should like to say in respect of that is, that in a certain section of this country there is tyrannical legislation and oppressive tyranny, and there is no protest against that tyranny from Deputy Sir James Craig or the people he represents. If Deputy Sir James Craig would use the influence which he undoubtedly possesses in conjunction with Deputy Jasper Wolfe, in the influence which he possesses. against the tyrannical legislation and oppressive tyranny in another portion of this country, then I would see some sense in his coming here to criticise this Bill on the grounds of tyrannical legislation and oppressive tyranny. The Deputy discussed the possibility of the Bill and its influence on the Boundary question and how it may operate against the coming in of the North. Deputy Sir James Craig should realise that that has nothing whatever to do with it, because that position will only be ended when England is prepared to give up her bridgehead in the North, or when we can make her do it, one or the other. The Deputy said he did not like the attitude on this Bill. He talked of compulsion, and he quoted Arthur Griffith on that matter. There is one thing that Deputy Sir James Craig should realise, and the same applies to the other Deputies who believe with him on this question, and that is that Arthur Griffith stood in this country for a self-respecting, self-contained economic and Gaelic nation. All his writings prove it; all his actions prove it. If Deputy Sir James Craig, or anyone else here, wants to quote a man who stood for the Gaelic nation, they should give us the quotation to prove that he stood for anything else.

I should like to say that I am glad that Deputy Martin Conlon and Deputy McFadden brought in this Bill. I support the Bill strongly, and I hope it will receive a large majority of the votes of this House. And I say that if the Bill has been introduced. it is about time, that it was introduced; but better late than never. The Deputies who brought in the Bill have done a good service; and even if they have not done anything but to make a section in this country, who do not believe that there is any possibility in the future of reviving this language, the section who do not believe that there is any hope in the future for the people of this Nation but to cherish a return to the Empire, realise their position, it will have done much good. Even if this Bill only acts as a danger signal to those, it will have done good in this respect, that it will make them realise that the tide is with the Irish language. The times have changed in Ireland, and even though it is a partitioned nation to-day, some day it will be a united nation, and in that day the language will be Irish. Níl a thuille agam le rádh ach chó-gháirdeachas do dhéanamh leis na Teachtai a thug isteach an Bille seo.

I have just a few words to which I wish to give expression in connection with this Bill. When I disapprove of the present policy of which this Bill is the exponent I do so entirely on educational grounds. Unfortunately many of the lines of opposition that have been taken to that policy make it difficult to keep the discussion upon this subject simply on educational grounds, and in an unbiassed way. Some of the speeches made by the opposition to the Bill have, in fact, made the speech of the Deputy who last spoke possible. I do not wish to discuss the general question at any great length, but I wish to put, in as clear a way as I can, what my position in the matter is. My objection is not anti-national, whatever may be thought to the contrary. I object entirely because I believe the policy is damaging to the education of the country. My experience does not confirm in any respect the experience as stated by the last speaker. My experience is that general education in the primary schools is deteriorating, and that it is having an effect upon the secondary schools also, and that that deterioration is passing from one to the other. I am in a position to judge, because I know a great deal of the kind of candidates for secondary school scholarships that come from primary schools. I repeat that my objection is not anti-national. I respect the ideals put before us, for instance, by the Minister for Local Government, and, if I might say so, put before us in a way I admire and heartily approve.

What I regret is that it is thought, and I think wrongly thought, that there is any need of this forcing policy in order to further those ideals, or that their development will be encouraged by the forced programme this policy engenders. I believe that is unnecessary and damaging to the State. In my opinion, language is, as I may put it, an accident of nationalism and not an essential at all. The whole trend of the world is away from the Tower of Babel and not towards it. I see no traces of a diminishing fervour for nationalism in any quarter of the world, but I see a strong trend towards a closer union between nations, a closer means of communication. Everything is towards the conclusion that what will tend to closer communication is an advantage and anything that would tend to prevent it is a disadvantage. I admit frankly that the opposite belief has been strengthened by extremists on both sides, but I claim because extremists on both sides agree in thinking that view wrong that their agreement does not make their view right in that respect. In my opinion, the policy of forcing the language will fail, and is failing, and the policy of forcing the language will retard and perhaps frustrate the policy of the development of the ideals which the Minister for Local Government and so many others desire. I do not suppose I shall persuade anybody by what I am saying. It will probably take the experience of generations to show whether I am right or wrong, but personally I am convinced that inevitable reaction will come, that the difference between force and natural growth will be plain to those who come after us, and that the next generation will suffer from this policy, which I believe to be its most damaging effect.

I do not intend to speak at greater length on the general policy, but I would like to say a few things about the Bill before us. I agree with Deputy Cooper that to carry out the object of the Bill this is not the right way of doing it. I think consultation should have been held with the governing bodies of those two professions. I agree with Deputy Redmond and others in saying that so far as there is any demand for Irish-speaking members of the legal profession that a corresponding supply will very quickly come. I agree with those who regard it as a serious inconsistency, on the one hand, to decry and deplore the exodus of brains and men from the country, and, on the other hand, to take steps which can only further increase that exodus. The principal point I wish to speak about, and which has been only partially referred to already, is in reference to the standard of Irish which it is supposed this Bill will make compulsory. Some speakers obviously believe that all that was intended was that there should be an examination of a more or less elementary character passed by those who propose to enter either of the professions. Other speakers believe the kind of examination was one that no one could enter either of these professions but fully-qualified Irish speakers able to conduct cases in the Irish language, but I defy either to show from the Bill what standard is required.

To my mind, this is one of the most extraordinary Bills ever brought into the House either by a private member or by the Government. What does it propose to do? I am speaking quite impersonally. It proposes to leave in the power of one person, who cannot be challenged by this House for any action he takes, not alone the decision as to what standard of the Irish language shall be required, but any decision as to the nature of the examination that shall be passed. It simply gives him the power of saying: "I will not admit X to the profession of solicitor or call Y to the Bar." And if anybody says: "What is your reason?" It is only necessary to say: "I think he did not know enough Irish." You put that power in the hands of a person who is definitely outside the criticism of this House. That is not an accident in this Bill, and if you try to work out any other plan through the Bill you find that the provision of machinery in the Bill becomes extremely difficult. Regarding it as a fundamental part of the Bill, I say that it is a thing that no democratic House ought to assent to. I hope members, before they come to vote in favour of this Bill, as it is obvious the great majority will do, will consider to the full what the vote means in that respect.

Labharfad ar son an Bhille seo im Beúrla.

The few remarks which I desire to make in support of this Bill are made in English because it is the language the House understands best. I entirely disagree with the suggestion put forward that a knowledge of Irish should be compulsory for membership of this House. There is no educational standard and there is no examination of candidates at a general election. The only handicap where an intellectual standard in any way enters comes under the Electoral Act. The persons who sit in this House sit here because the people of Ireland have sent them here. We are now discussing quite a different matter and we should discuss it on a different basis entirely. The necessity or the desirability of a knowledge of Irish for membership of this House has got nothing to do with it. I support the Bill because I believe that it is desirable. I will not go as far as some Deputies have gone and say that it is necessary. I say that it is desirable—we say in five years hence, and nobody can be called to the Bar or admitted to the solicitors' profession under the age of 21—that at the end of that period persons entering the legal profession should have a knowledge of Irish. I think it was the Minister for Justice who stated that a knowledge of English is not necessary for admission as a student to the King's Inns. English or Irish is required. I must say that I support the Bill for one chief reason that Irish was, and I desire it should be, the language of this country. It is our language, and without making further apologies I should like to say that I entirely disagree with what many supporters of this Bill have said. The British Empire has got nothing whatever to do with this Bill. It is very regrettable that the sentiments expressed in speeches made last week and even to-night were not realised some years ago. It is a great pity that people did not then say: "Cuir i bhfeidhm an polasaí nua." It was a great pity that in those years it was not realised that what did happen in 1921 did give to the people of Ireland the right to decide whether or not they would have Irish. I say this without in any way drawing up the question as regards what Deputy Brennan said about the civil war. He said that if the civil war had not happened that the alignment in this country would have been so-and-so. I would appeal to anyone who votes against this Bill to dissociate himself from any such thing. I think it was Deputy Mullins who talked about the return of the British Empire. That, I presume, is a confession that the British Empire is not here, notwithstanding all that we have heard during the past six years. We have heard to-night that Deputies who vote against this Bill will be standing for the return of the British Empire.

On a point of explanation. When I talked about the return of the British Empire I qualified it by stating. "But they are not gone yet."

I do not know who they are.

The Empire.

I do not know who they are; but when there was a question of their going or otherwise I was nearer to the danger point than Deputy Mullins. I want to be clear again that I do not know who they are.

How do you know that?

The Irish language is a vital matter to our people and to our country. I do not desire, as I have already said, to make this a political matter; but had not political divisions been so keen and so acute during the past ten or fifteen years, the Irish language would be in a better position to-day than it is. Persons have said—and said, I must say, with a certain amount of truth—that the language revival movement has not been a success. It is interesting to examine the causes of the absence of success—it is really the intensity and desire to give expression to political thought, especially if it is party political thought. I happen to be very interested in the Gaeltacht. I professionally visit the county which has the greatest number of Irish speakers, namely, the County Galway. But when a political party—it unfortunately happens to be on the other side of the House, but that is not why I say it— wants to put its policy before the people of the capital of that county, and when they want to speak in Galway, they issue handbills saying: "Men and women, the greatest orator since O'Connell's time is coming to address you. Come in your thousands."

A DEPUTY

Name him.

Why name? Certainly not. The idea underlying that kind of thing is what has been responsible for what has been described as the failure of the language movement. We are in too great a hurry. We are too warm. too heated in our desire to blackguard somebody else politically and we want to send the greatest orators since O'Connell's time to do it. We think very little of Ireland or of the Irish language when we do those things. I say that the Irish language should be above party. It does not belong to one political party in this country or to any particular section in this House. That is why I appeal to members who propose to vote against this Bill to dissociate themselves from the suggestion made here to-night that it is an argument for the return of the Empire, qualified I am told by "which has not gone yet."

It would be hard for them to return.

Clearly, I cannot help the Deputy.

The Bill in its present form is desirable. I desire to say that no sensible reason has been put forward in this House as to why persons who are now sixteen years of age could not and cannot, at the end of five years, have a knowledge of the Irish language sufficient to come within the description of "a competent knowledge of Irish." I agree with one suggestion that it is unfair to any individual—in this particular instance the individual is the Chief Justice, who is entirely outside the criticism of this House—to ask him to be the person who should say what is or what is not a competent knowledge, and to say whether the person has or has not that competent knowledge. In view of the fact that sixteen years of age is the ending of the secondary school period and that persons may have left the secondary school without having studied or begun the study of Irish, I would go to this extent and ask the proposer and seconder of this Bill to accept an amendment to the effect that the age of fourteen should be substituted. Fourteen happens to be, roughly, the middle or the half-way period in the secondary school period, and it is only fair, if we insist on this question of a knowledge of Irish at the end of five years, that a person should get due notice. Therefore, there is no question of making war on the legal profession.

I move the adjournment of the Debate.

Debate adjourned.
The House adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 1st November.
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