Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Nov 1928

Vol. 26 No. 13

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 32—GARDA SIOCHANA (RESUMED).

Question again proposed:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £483,373 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1929, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Ghárda Síochána (Uimh. 7 de 1925).

That a sum not exceeding £483,373 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Gárda Síochána (No. 7 of 1925).—(Minister for Finance.)

Mr. KENT

I view with great alarm the amount which the Minister for Justice is seeking for the upkeep of the police force in this country, considering that the farmers are the principal contributors of the rates and taxes. Every farmer Deputy knows well that the farmers principally depend on their harvest to pay their rates and annuities to the Land Commission. What do we find this year after the harvest has been cut? One of the most deplorable and lamentable harvests in the country for a number of years. Our oats crop is not half what it used to be; our barley is practically unsold and our potato crop is twenty per cent. less than the previous year. I doubt if, in the coming season, we shall have any seed to put into our ground; cattle are unsaleable at present and the farmers, the principal contributors to this huge Estimate, are asked to shoulder another burden of taxation while they are already groaning under taxation of a similar kind. Personally speaking, I have nothing whatever to say against the Guards of this country. To my mind, they are as fine a body of men, both in physique and ability, as you can get in any other country in the world, but when we come to consider that we have to foot a bill of £1,588,373 and take into consideration the deplorable plight of the misfortunate farmers, I say without fear of contradiction, that a great portion of this Estimate could be reduced, by reducing the police forces in the rural districts of the country. I know they have often being called on to do unpleasant duties such as assisting the sheriff's officers in collecting land annuities and other debts. I know some of them, if they had their own choice, would refrain from doing this work. Nevertheless, when we consider the deplorable state of the farmers while they are already groaning under taxation, I say the Minister for Justice should go more minutely into the details of this Estimate before putting such a burden on the ratepayers of the country.

A question with reference to barley was raised here last week by Deputy Corry. I heard the Minister for Agriculture say that it was time for the farmers to change their system of farming. I say that it is time for the Government to change their system of farming by cutting down such Estimates as this by at least thirty to fifty per cent. I also heard Deputy Corry saying that there was a police barracks going to be built in his parish that would cost £1,500. I have not much to say to that, because a great deal of this money will go into the artisans' pockets and to a great extent relieve their families. There is one thing for which Deputy Corry should feel relieved. When he is up here in the Dáil advocating the cause of the down-trodden and oppressed the Guards would keep an eye on his farm and keep away those light-fingered gentlemen who are becoming noticeable lately making raids on farm houses. At all events, as I said before, when this Estimate will pass this House and when the farmers will see that they have shouldered the burden of £1,588,373, when they are already groaning under the weight of taxation, it will be such a shock and a strain on their nerves that there will be many sudden and unprovided deaths in the Saorstát. I think it is time for the Ministers in charge of every Department in this Government to reduce their Estimates to such an extent as the people of the country will be able to bear.

Mr. SHAW

I wish to join with other Deputies in paying a well-deserved tribute to the Civic Guards. The Guards enjoy the confidence of the vast majority of the people of the Free State. They are, and always will be, a living tribute to the memory of the late Minister for Justice, who was responsible for their successful establishment. During the course of this debate unfair criticism and, in one case at least, untrue statements have been made about them. I refer particularly to the statement of Deputy Kennedy which appears in the Official Debates of 1st November, page 1400. On that occasion Deputy Kennedy asked: "Is the Minister aware that a certain superintendent in the Midlands spent a fortnight before the last two elections addressing envelopes in Cumann na nGaedheal headquarters, and that his car was at the disposal of Cumann na nGaedheal on election day?" Mr. Hogan in reply said: "I am not aware of it." Mr. Kennedy added: "I am aware of it."

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Did Deputy Kennedy speak in this debate?

Mr. KENNEDY

No.

Mr. SHAW

He asked this question.

Mr. KENNEDY

I intervened.

Mr. SHAW

I ask the Deputy was he alluding to Mullingar when he made that statement?

Mr. KENNEDY

Absolutely.

Mr. SHAW

Very well. It was at my request that the superintendent of the Civic Guard came to the election rooms, and the reason I was obliged to get him tó come was that motor cars which were outside the Cumann na nGaedheal rooms on the night before were slashed with knives, the tyres were cut, and the cars were punctured, and my own car was also interfered with, so that I, amongst others, had to walk home. The reason I brought the superintendent with other Guards there was to prevent a recurrence of that kind of blackguardism and not to address envelopes. Deputy Kennedy has also stated that the superintendent's car was used on election day by Cumann na nGaedheal headquarters. The car is a two-seater Morris-Cowley, and the statement that it was used by Cumann na nGaedheal headquarters is also without a shadow of foundation. In view of the statement which I have made I think Deputy Kennedy ought to withdraw what is really a slander. He made that statement here in a privileged place where the superintendent cannot answer. Before proceeding further I will ask him to withdraw. I will also read a statement made by the constituency director of Cumann na nGaedheal.

The Superintendent of the Guards visited the Cumann na nGaedheal election rooms at my request. I sent word, asking him to call, as I wished to see what could be done to prevent the slashing of the tyres of cars left outside our offices by voluntary helpers.

He prevented a recurrence of this by having the vicinity of the offices patrolled each night, and calling at our offices frequently to satisfy himself that there were no complaints.

Regarding the allegation that the Superintendent put his car at the disposal of electors on election day, it so happens that his car (which was a two-seater, and consequently of little use to carry electors to the booths) was on each polling day employed by himself personally visiting the different booths throughout his area, in the ordinary discharge of his duty.

On no occasion did the Superintendent either write envelopes or in any way whatsoever help in our election rooms, or assist the work of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party.

The above statement I am prepared to testify on oath if necessary.

I do not intend to say anything further than to ask the Deputy in view of that statement to withdraw what is a foul slander without a shadow of foundation. I have the greatest pleasure in supporting this Vote, which is an assurance that the peace which now exists in the country will be continued.

Mr. COONEY

Dearly bought.

Mr. SHAW

It is well knows that Cumann na nGaedheal electors would have had to walk to the polls were it not for the Guards who saw that their cars were not attacked the night before. I again ask Deputy Kennedy to withdraw an unfair and untrue charge.

Mr. KENNEDY

Deputy Shaw stated that Cumann na nGaedheal electors would have had to walk to the polls were it not for the Guards, and then he said that the cars were not available for the elections.

Mr. DOLAN

He said that their motor cars were slashed with knives.

Mr. KENNEDY

Of course I accept the statement that the Superintendent was fixing up the slashed tyres.

Mr. SHAW

To prevent a recurrence of slashing.

Mr. KENNEDY

Very well, to prevent a recurrence of it. I agree with Deputy Jordan and Deputy Kent that the number of barracks could be diminished in the country and the cost of the force reduced. I will give one example. There is a place which Deputy Shaw knows well, the Crazy-Corner Barracks. Deputy Shaw will agree that there is not a more Cumann na nGaedheal spot in Westmeath than that. The ballot box that comes in from there is always a delight to Cumann na nGaedheal. That barracks is situated in a rural place. There is not a house within half a mile of it. There is an unoccupied demesne opposite it, and the Guards simply rusticate there from one end of the year to the other. The traffic problem, to which Deputy Gorey referred, does not exist there. It is only a few miles from Mullingar, so that with increased transport facilities the district could be served by means of a motor car from Mullingar and there would be no need to have a barracks in such a place. That holds good in a great number of cases up and down the country. I am not going to reiterate the statements made from these benches. Indeed, I did not mean to speak at all on this Vote were it not for Deputy Shaw's reference to the slashed tyres.

Mr. SHAW

Is the Deputy going to withdraw the statement?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

He has withdrawn it.

Mr. KENNEDY

Deputy Shaw is not at the County Council now.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

The Vote before the House is one of the most important of the Votes which come up for discussion here. It represents one of the major activities of government, the preservation of law and order, and, at the same time, it involves the expenditure of a considerable portion of the taxpayers' money. Considering its importance, I would have expected from the Opposition Benches criticism of the Vote in a more sensible and constructive fashion than we have heard. I have listened to the criticism coming from the Opposition Benches, and I have heard statements put forward that in the interests of economy and in the interests of the preservation of existing social services, or the extension of future social services, reductions could be effected in the amount expended on the maintenance of the Gárdaí. I expected to hear one Deputy, at least, on the Opposition Benches entering into a detailed and exhaustive analysis of the Vote and pointing out where at least one pound could be saved.

Mr. CORRY

I gave a case in my own parish where you could save £1,000.

Mr. KILROY

I mentioned where a couple of thousand pounds could be saved per year.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Deputy Ruttledge and other Deputies mentioned that on a former occasion I and other Deputies proposed an amendment that the Vote should be reduced. In one case we moved for a reduction of £400,000 and in another something like £126,000. We were twitted with not being prepared to follow up our arguments on that occasion. I would have expected that Deputy Ruttledge and his Party who claim that this Vote could and ought to be reduced, would at least have taken pains to put forward an amendment showing where reductions might be made. If the Deputy, when he went to the trouble of reading the previous debates, had examined the amendments put forward from the benches on which I sat on that occasion he would have noticed that our proposals embraced two aspects. The first aspect was that in respect of the pay, allowances and upkeep of the Gárdai. We maintained that certain economies could be effected in that direction. The other aspect was in regard to the numbers and strength of the Gárdai, and we maintained that the condition of the country was such that it was not necessary to maintain such a number of effective Gárdai. When putting forward those amendments we, at least, went to the trouble of getting facts and figures and attempting to substantiate the facts and standing over them. The amendment of ex-Deputy Wilson showed that a considerable amount of examination had been given to the Police Votes in this and other countries, and, speaking on behalf of the farmers, he put forward definite constructive suggestions for a reduction of the Vote. On that occasion Mr. Wilson was speaking on behalf of a Party of 15, a Party which had very small financial resources. Deputies from the benches opposite are speaking on behalf of a Party of 57. I presume that all the members of that Party are not front bench men and are not extremely busy. Therefore, I believe it would be possible for members of that Party, if they really believed that definite economies could be effected and definite cuts made in this Vote, to examine it in detail, and having done so to put the opinions and conclusions they had formed before the House. That would give the House as a whole an opportunity of considering the question whether or not such cuts or economics could be effected, and whether if any constructive proposals were submitted they could be employed. But the Party opposite has done nothing of the kind. Instead, they have uttered sweeping generalities, sometimes accompanied by semi-veiled charges, against the members of the Gárda Síochána. In that connection it is to be observed that attacks of that kind were very few. From almost every side of the House there was general appreciation of the good work done by the Guards, and I personally want to associate myself with the words of appreciation spoken in that connection.

I am convinced that, physically, we have the best police force in the world, and that, intellectually, mentally and morally, we have a police force equal to that in any other part of the world. That always has been my opinion, but at the same time I should like to say this: that we must not regard the police force as above criticism. I feel, and always have felt, that our police force, however good it is, and it is very good, has certain imperfections. As a new force, raised up, one might say, from the ground, on a foundation that, at the time, had no existing personnel as regards officers and in very large numbers, it was bound to have certain defects. That might be expected in such a force, taking into account the conditions under which it was raised and the conditions that existed in the country during the period that it was being recruited. I think, in view of all these circumstances, that we can heartily congratulate ourselves, and also congratulate the officers in charge on the wonderfully effective police force which they have produced. I believe that it is a force that will improve from day to day.

As to how reductions might be effected in the cost and strength of the force, we might, as I have already pointed out, have expected that members on the benches opposite would have put forward certain constructive proposals—proposals of the nature that we put forward and that we might expect them to put forward. I, personally, am deeply interested in this matter, but as, at the moment, I am engaged in dealing with the aspect of this question of reduction of expenditure, I must regard this particular matter as being sub judice. I am a member of an Economy Committee which is dealing with the question of economy in all departments of State. Doubtless at some period of our deliberations the Vote that is now under discussion will come up for consideration before us. I had hoped, but my hope has been in vain, that I would have got in the course of this debate some indication of lines to work along in effecting economies. I regard any indications of help given in that direction in the course of this debate as being absolutely negligible.

On the occasion that I have referred to the Party to which I then belonged brought forward a motion the effect of which was that the strength of the Gárda Síochána force should be reduced, and the cost for its maintenance, etc, by the sum of £400,000. When that motion was moved, we pointed out that the sum indicated had not been arrived at after any close examination of the figures that went to make up the total amount of the Vote, but that we put forward a figure mainly in the nature of a token Vote, arrived at in a rough and haphazard manner so as to give us an opportunity of stating our views as well as an opportunity to the then Minister for Justice of stating his views on the question of the permanent maintenance of the Gárda Síochána force at its high level and strength. On that occasion I put forward certain opinions which I held then, and still hold to a very considerable extent. The statement made at the time by the then Minister for Justice led us to modify our views to the extent that we did not put our motion to a division. Apart from that fact, later happenings which followed almost immediately after the discussion of our motion led me to modify my views to a certain extent and to realise that, although it may not be advisable to retain a permanent police force at its present numbers in this country, the conditions then existing were such that I could not stand up and recommend a reduction in the strength of the force. Within a few weeks of the discussion on that motion the sad duty was cast upon me of forming one of the party that walked after the funerals of two members of the Gárda Síochána. One of them was shot in my own county at a place called Hollyfort. The other Guard was shot in another county. I then began to reconsider my position. I felt that I could not honestly put my hand on my heart and say "The conditions in this country are such that we can, at the present time, reduce the strength of the force," and I began to have my doubts about the matter. I want to say that the slayers of those two Guards have never been apprehended.

At a later date in the following year I had again to give very serious thought to the motion which we then put forward as to whether we would be justified in asking to have the strength of the force reduced. I had the sad and unhappy duty cast upon me of following the funeral cortege of the very Minister for Justice who had defended the Vote for this force in the Dáil on the occasion that our motion was discussed, the Minister who argued for the retention of the force at its old level. Having taken part in that sad cortege, I again felt that I could not put my hand on my heart and say that I honestly believed that the conditions then existing in this country were such that we could at once proceed to reduce the strength of our police force. Again, I may point out that the perpetrators of that deed are still at large. I still believe, however, that the strength of the police force that we have in this country is too large for the requirements of the country. Taking into account the economic conditions of the country as they exist to-day, as has been pointed out by Deputy Kent and others, I believe that the burden which the maintenance of this force casts upon the main taxpayers of the country, who are the farmers, is too much. We must, however, take into account whether the conditions that exist at present, and are likely to exist in the future, are such that the strength of the force can be reduced. Personally, I have doubts as to whether we would be justified in saying that the conditions that at present exist are normal and are such that the strength of the force can be reduced. I believe that we have not yet developed a sense of civic responsibility, of the necessity for co-operating with the guardians of law and order, or a sense of personal responsibility in the maintenance of law and order such as would enable us to guarantee that we can carry on with a smaller police force than we have at present.

If the Deputies on the opposite benches are really anxious, and I believe they are, to reduce the force, because apart from any question of political propaganda they must know as everybody in touch with the conditions in the country knows, that a reduction in the strength of the police force for economic reasons is essential, then they should try and create an atmosphere and a sense of civic spirit which would make the ordinary man realise that the police force is not the force of a Party but the force of the Government and of the country, and that it is the duty of every law-abiding citizen to offer help to the police when his assistance is required. When that day has arrived, when the sense of civic responsibility has grown to such an extent that the people will freely and willingly give their aid to the police, then the question of a reduction in the strength of the police force might be considered, but it would be too soon to consider it before that. I am of opinion that it would be unwise, both in the interests of economy and of the future social and political welfare of the country, that the force should be stereotyped at its present numbers. I think the day will and must come when we can bring the policing of this country and the observance of law and order in line with that which exists in other countries.

It appears to me that two conflicting points of view exist on this subject. We should take a definite side in regard to these views. One view is that the police force should be maintained at its present strength, and that if duties are not there for the police to perform then duties must be provided for them. Measures passed by this Dáil have added to the duties cast on the police, which increased the necessity for the maintenance of the present strength of that force. Extra duties have arisen out of the development in transport conditions in the way of regulation of traffic. Then new Acts, such as the School Attendance Act, have the effect of imposing additional duties upon the police. As I have said, there is that point of view, that because of these extra duties cast on the police they must be maintained at their present strength. On the other hand, it is said that instead of throwing on the shoulders of the police new duties from time to time we should avoid doing anything of the kind, and that as conditions improve the numbers of the police force should be reduced to a number commensurate with the capacity of the country to maintain. I hold that view. I hold that we should not stereotype and make permanent the existing strength of the force. I think both from the point of view of economy, and the point of view of the political and social welfare of the country, it would be well that people should learn there is a certain responsibility cast on them as citizens for the observance of the law and the maintenance of order, and that the man who gives information to the police now cannot be regarded, as he too often was in the past, as an informer and a renegade to his own people.

Certain criticisms were put forward from the opposite benches with regard to the political activities of the Gárda Síochána. I gathered that those criticisms generally did not apply to the uniformed forces, though certain criticisms were made of the uniformed force tending to associate them with political activities. I do not think that was a widespread opinion, but it was definitely put forward from the opposite benches that members of the non-uniformed force were acting as political agents. It seems to me that is a simple matter. It depends upon the question of what is political. If the activities of the Guards are confined to carrying out their normal duties I cannot see how their use in that connection could be regarded as taking part in political activities. If political activities mean the building up of secret organisations for the purpose of using force and attaining ends which certain parties wished to attain, certainly it is the duty of the C.I.D., or of the uniformed force, to take all the steps they can to get information regarding such activities. It was suggested that owing to activities of members of the C.I.D. freedom of speech was not allowed at the elections. I happened to be a candidate for election on many occasions. I was first a candidate on behalf of the Farmers' Party, and later a candidate of that Party when it had entered into alliance with the existing Government Party. When I was a Farmers' candidate pure and simple I never had the slightest difficulty in making myself heard.

Mr. CORRY

Would the Deputy——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy must sit down.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

As I said, I never had the slightest difficulty in making myself heard, and I never had any interruptions to prevent me from speaking. At the last election, when it became known that I was appearing as a member of a Party in alliance with the Government Party, I immediately began to encounter organised obstruction, which consisted of noise and interruptions that prevented me from being heard. There were no C.I.D. at those meetings, for I had not previously given notice that I intended to hold these meetings. One of my supporters was assaulted at one of these meetings. I went to his rescue, and I was physically assaulted when I did so. I believe I would not have had the slightest possibility of conducting the election campaign without the help I afterwards got from the uniformed Guards and the C.I.D. That was my experience. I am convinced that only for the support I got from the police I would have received the same treatment in 1928 as in 1922.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

1922 is too far back. This Vote does not include 1922, thank heavens.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I do not maintain that responsible members of the Opposition Party, or even the Opposition candidates in my county, were in any way responsible, directly or indirectly, for the interruptions at my meetings, but I maintain that a certain feeling of insubordination exists—a feeling that the candidates of certain Parties have no right to appeal to the public. Until that feeling disappears we will not have freedom of speech unless we have protection. In that matter, as in many others connected with the welfare of the country, and from the point of view of the future of this force and its cost, I say that there is an onus and a responsibility cast on all Parties in the House, and that not the least, but perhaps to the greatest extent, the responsibility for endeavouring to inculcate the necessary civic spirit, which will make it possible to reduce the force, lies with the people on the opposite benches.

Mr. COONEY

Might I put a question to the Parliamentary Secretary?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Yes, if it is in connection with the Vote.

Mr. COONEY

The Parliamentary Secretary has made a plea that we should do everything possible so that no abnormal duties are imposed on the police force. I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he is prepared to use his influence over this week-end to prevent imperialistic displays in this city which will entail extra duties on the Guards, and, as earnest of his own sincerity in that matter, will he refuse to wear a poppy?

Mr. J.X. MURPHY

I do not want to criticise the Guards in any way. I do not come into contact with them very much. I have always found them very satisfactory. I want to know on this Vote if the Minister for Justice will clarify in some degree the position regarding the speed of motor buses and the instructions given to the Guards. Deputy Davin asked a question to-day, and I gathered that the Minister stated that the legal speed of buses is twenty miles an hour, but that he does not wish that prosecutions should be instituted unless buses exceed 25 miles an hour. I do not know if that is what the Minister stated, but perhaps when replying he will let the House know what instructions were given, because some buses travel over forty miles an hour. A case occurred the other day where a man was not fined for travelling at forty miles an hour, and I am afraid, from what the Minister said, the bus drivers will take it that they are free to go at any rate they wish, as long as they do not travel to the danger of the public. There is another small matter that I want to refer to. Some time ago about 250 Guards went to Rome. I know that they went at their own expense and there is no objection to that, but if they were all drawn from the Dublin area it would seem to suggest that there may be too many Guards in Dublin. Possibly they were drawn from all parts of the country, and that they were on their ordinary leave. If not, it looks as if we had too many Guards in Dublin.

Dr. HENNESSY

On a previous occasion on this Vote I made some suggestions. I do not think they have been acted upon since, possibly because they did not deserve to be acted upon. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has referred to the duties performed by the Civic Guards in addition to their police duties. When he is replying, I would like to know from the Minister if it is the policy to extend the inclusion of other duties besides police duties to the Civic Guards. To my mind, they would make admirable health inspectors, rate collectors and perform duties under different Acts, such as the National Health Insurance Act. Many of these offices to which I refer are whole-time offices and are discharged by men long beyond the state of physical fitness at which they could efficiently discharge them. The Civic Guards, in addition to being a fairly well educated body of men, possess a very high standard of physical fitness, and if that physical fitness with their discipline, intelligence and general training was put at the disposal of the local authorities it would work towards economy in this Vote. I want no officials dismissed or placed on pension, but according as vacancies would arise the positions might be filled by Civic Guards. The duties would not take up all the time of the Guards. I do not believe they would interfere with the discharge of their police duties proper at all. The Guards would be going through the country discharging one duty and they would be also able to discharge their police duties. Already the Guards have done very good work, work that would go far to justify some of the expenditure. We know the work they do with regard to sheep dipping, the prevention of sheep scab, and also when there are outbreaks of foot and mouth disease. I do not want to detract from those who are mainly responsible for discharging these duties, the veterinary surgeons in the Department of Agriculture, but certainly under the direction of the veterinary surgeons the Civic Guards have done excellent work. I would like if the Minister, on the first time that I have addressed a question to him since he came into office with regard to this Vote, would indicate if he would adopt the policy of extending the work of the Guards in the way I suggested on every possible occasion.

Mr. MULLINS

In rising to oppose this Vote, despite the pessimistic speech of Deputy Heffernan, I am fortified by no less an authority than the editor of the newspaper which has the largest circulation in southern Ireland. I am sure Deputy Heffernan will agree that it is just as staunch a defender of Saorstát Eireann and the Government, and just as staunch an advocate of the return of peaceful conditions in that territory, as himself or anyone else. It said in the leading article on Saturday last that a substantial reduction could be made in the numbers of the force. I think the Minister for Justice should sit up and take note, because after all the power of the Press is great. I am not going to traverse the road travelled by many Deputies in their criticism of this Vote. I think nearly all that could be said on it has been said, but I would like to support the argument that there are too many barracks, and that, as Deputy Micheal O Clerigh stated, it seems to be the policy of the Government to blaze a trail throughout the country on the lines of the old Royal Irish Constabulary barracks, that everywhere the old R.I.C. had an outpost it is the policy of the Ministry to ensure that there shall be outposts of Saorstát Eireann set up as Civic Guard barracks. The suggestion for the elimination of some barracks should commend itself to the Minister. The Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána has been abroad recently, and I am certain that his experience of police forces on the continent will be at the disposal of the Minister in framing any new policy with regard to this matter. The suggestion with regard to motor cycle patrols is one that certainly could be put into effect and insure a saving in the cost of transport, and the cost of barracks in different areas. There are certainly too many Guards. In the town that I come from we have a Gárda barracks. It is a very law-abiding town, and there has not been a serious crime in it for the last fifteen years. I think that three Guards would be quite sufficient for that district, but there are nine.

There is no reason why there could not be a reduction. All this talk of Deputy Heffernan's with regard to the creation of a civic spirit is all so much bosh, and Deputy Heffernan knows it. I am not going to attack the Gárda Síochána. I want to state my belief that they are a splendid body of men. I want to say that I have found them, in my dealings with them, in the main, courteous and ready to oblige on every possible occasion, but I want to state also that, just as in the case of every flock, there are certain black sheep among them and it would be well if the Minister would take his courage in his hands and get rid of them.

The chief point I want to make in connection with this Vote is in regard to the gentlemen who have been described as the auxiliary police force, more familiarly known to us as the C.I.D. There is an item in the Estimate for the maintenance and running expenses of the detective branch transport outside Dublin. It was £1,440 last year, but it is down a little this year, since they caught Con Healy, I suppose, but the fact remains that that item is accounted for, and I am certain the Minister for Justice knows it is accounted for, mostly by the political activities of this force. During the past few days there has been a wholesale series of raids, searches, arrests and hold-ups throughout the twenty-six counties. I should like the Minister to inform us—because it might come in handy—if he has got any information as to whether there is another Gunpowder Plot, or any Bolshevik plot, since we do not recognise Russia, or what is the meaning of this recrudescence of raids, arrests and searches which has been taking place throughout the country over the last week-end. Down in Bantry, in portion of my constituency—a very law-abiding and a very peaceful district—the C.I.D. commenced raids on Saturday night, and in some of the cases I think the raids were not finished until Monday night. Despite Deputy Heffernan's appeal to us to create a civic spirit, the men who were held up and searched were all executive officers of the West Cork Comhairle Dáil Ceanntar of Fianna Fáil, and one raid occupied something like two and a half hours. This raid was on the house of a man who was a Fianna Fáil candidate at the last general election. As I said, the district is a peaceful one, and so disgusted were the members of the local authority of that town that on Monday night, at the meeting of the Bantry Town Commissioners, at which was present a Cumann na nGaedheal County Councillor, the following resolution was passed unanimously:—

That we, the members of the Bantry Town Commissioners, protest against the provocative action of the Civic Guards and C.I.D. in raiding the houses of members of this body and houses of respectable citizens, as we consider such raids so carried out in this peaceful district are unnecessary and not conducive to the peace of the locality.

That copies of this resolution be sent to the Press and our local T.D.'s.

Deputy Heffernan has appealed to us to play our part in creating a civic spirit. Those men whose houses have been raided in the last few days were doing their best to create a civic spirit. They belonged to a constitutional movement, so described, and they have taken an active part in this organisation since its inception. No case whatsoever has been made out for raids on their houses. These raids have taken place in the twenty-six counties during the last week-end on the houses of prominent Fianna Fáil supporters and of prominent Fianna Fáil election organisers. A telegram received from Sligo, which Deputy Holt mentioned a few moments ago, referred to the raids that took place in Sligo during the week-end as follows:—

Proposed by W. F. Brown, seconded by Michael Nevin: That we, the members of the Sligo Corporation in meeting assembled, desire to enter our protest against the manner in which raids on the citizens of this town are being carried out by the authorities, and that this protest be wired to the T.D.'s for the area.

Passed, Alderman Jinks dissenting.

I presume Alderman Jinks did not want any information to leak out as regards the little transaction he was implicated in twelve months ago. To-day, in the "Irish Independent," which is pretty reliable as far as this sort of thing goes, we find that Munster, Connaught and Leinster were the scenes of operations over the week-end by the auxiliary police force known as the C.I.D. Towns as far apart as Killarney, Tralee, Charleville, Kenmare, Daingean, Dungarvan, Wexford, and Ballina were raided and searches were made for documents and arms, I suppose. In Ballina the excuse given for the raids on every Republican house in the town was that the barracks were attacked, the C.I.D. evidently forgetting that it was Guy Fawkes night and that somebody may have used a slap-bang to irritate somebody else.

The main point with regard to this whole position is that the C.I.D. are the cause of a tremendous amount of friction, and it is the common belief that they are being retained to ensure that peaceful conditions shall not come about. They are an undisciplined force. Incidents that took place from Cork to Donegal during the past four years have definitely proved that beyond contradiction. The C.I.D. are a force which have not had the training of the Gárda Síochána; they are a force which are armed with guns, and guns in the hands of undisciplined men are very dangerous weapons, especially in this country. The Minister should give us some information—I think the House is entitled to it—with regard to the series of raids, arrests and hold-ups during the week-end. Some months ago when the Vote on Account was taken, I protested against the activities of that force at the burial of a Republican soldier in West Cork. I stated then— and I want to state it again—that the only possibility of creating any sort of civic spirit of the type that Deputy Heffernan speaks of, the only possibility of ensuring that the police force will be respected, is to take from them every appearance of being an adjunct of the political organisation which controls the present Government. The only possibility of making them a force which the people will look up to as one which merits their support and assistance in the apprehension of wrong-doers, the only way in which they can be made a force which everybody will assist by giving information of crimes, is by taking from them all appearances of being a political auxiliary to the present Government, and the C.I.D. are certainly that.

There is only one other thing that I should like to say, and that is that this talk about civic spirit, about looking up to the police force, and all that, is all right, but it is my firm conviction that you will never have that civic spirit of which Deputy Heffernan speaks while this country is unfree and until a free Irish nation exists in place of the partitioned remnant of what was once Ireland. But until that comes about there is no reason why a genuine effort should not be made to ensure that the police force, for which the Irish taxpayers are paying, should be efficient and should receive the co-operation of the people in its lawful duties. Its lawful duties do not include the hunting down of Republicans because of their political opinions; its lawful duties do not include the irritation of election workers in an organisation in opposition to that of the Government, and its lawful duties do not include searches, raids and arrests, and the constant persecution of certain people against whom no evidence of any degree has been or can be produced. I should like the Minister to state whether he has any information of any plots to overthrow the State, or whether he has received any information that there is to be an invasion of Bolsheviks, of whom he seems to be very much afraid. I should like him to state whether or not it is a fact that the gentlemen of the C.I.D. have certain definite instructions to keep a tally of the movements of prominent and active Republican workers in different areas, and whether, in keeping that tally, they have not often got out of hand and done things which reflected discredit on the force and which make the title "C.I.D." stink in the nostrils of every honest Irishman.

Mr. DALY

I am in thorough agreement with this Vote, and I desire to emphasise the efficient and courteous manner in which the Guards discharge their duties to everybody. I do believe that the Guards recognise their responsibilities to every person in the State, irrespective of what the political views of people may be. That is my experience of the Guards, even at election times. I never observed anything but independence amongst them. Unlike the case mentioned by Deputy Heffernan, in my district the Guards never have to intervene, because the political parties there are about fifty-fifty; they are just about able for one another without any interference from the Guards.

Mr. KILLILEA

The Guard might get killed if he went in between them.

Mr. DALY

I do not know that he would be killed, but it would be as well for him not to interfere. I want to point out that it is unnecessary for the Guards to interfere, and they do not interfere.

Mr. S. JORDAN

That is because you are consistent down there; you are either Cumann na nGaedheal or Fianna Fáil.

Mr. DALY

It has been said that the Guards go out of their way to assist the Cumann na nGaedheal candidates. They do not go out of their way, and my experience of them is that they are quite independent. Their greatest opponent in the House here, who comes from East Cork, must admit that. It has been pointed out by Deputy Hennessy that it would be well if the members of the force were allowed to travel a little outside their every-day duties. I remember that six months ago a sergeant of the Guards travelled six miles and met me in the town of Fermoy. He told me, in my capacity as a member of the Home Assistance Board, of a family in distress. He found out on his beat that a family living on the mountainside was in distress. He and I immediately got that family relief. We went to the relieving officer and he saw that necessaries were at once given to the poor people on the mountainside. The action of the sergeant is one that will commend itself. He went outside his duties, strictly speaking, but his action on that occasion was certainly commendable.

We are asked to reduce the numbers of the force. To my mind, nobody but the people of the country, by their conduct, can reduce the numbers of the force. When the people as a whole recognise that the Guards are a national force belonging to no political party, that they are the servants of the country, and that it is the bounden duty of the people to assist the Guards, then the time will come when a reduction will be possible. When a proper civic spirit is shown in this country it will be time for the Government to contemplate by how many they can reduce the strength of the Civic Guards. Until there is a strong civic spirit in the country you cannot reduce the force with any safety. We are told that the Guards are an expensive force, but I hold that they are giving good value to those who pay for them. They are a protection for the people, and some of the people in the country districts especially are delighted to see the Guards coming around in the evening time.

Mr. HOLT

Particularly the publicans.

Mr. DALY

The publicans are fixed and there is no necessity for the Civic Guards to look after them. Some Deputies say there are wrong-doers in the force. Perhaps there are. There are wrong-doers in every section of the community, even here; a great many Deputies would not be here only they were, and that is what brought them here. My experience of the wrong-doers in the force is that they are immediately punished and put out of the force. In that way you have a truly Irish force, and you have as well-disciplined a force now as you have in any other country. We can truthfully say that we are proud of our force just as they are in other countries. In recent years a certain revolution in the way of traffic took place. You now have buses flying here and there through the country, getting around dangerous corners, and so on, and the Guards have to look after the children to prevent them being run over. Every court day you have prosecutions for driving at high speed, for over-crowding, etc. At the moment I will not say anything about the other circumstances. Certain things are beginning to wear away—at least some of the other circumstances that made it necessary to maintain the force.

Mr. ALLEN

What are they? Let us have them.

Mr. DALY

I will not mention them now. You are getting good. To my mind, the Guards at the moment are necessary in their existing numbers. If there is a real effort to be made to reduce the force, that can only be done at the hands of the people. Let them look upon the force as a national force, as the servants of the people, and not the servants of one party; let them assist the Guards, and let the criminals know that the people are behind law and order in this country, and in that way you will go far to stamp out the criminal; in that way you will do a lot towards reducing the force to such numbers as will only be necessary in a country where you have got back to the real law that should be established long ago, at least for the last three years.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

took the Chair.

Mr. M. O'REILLY

I was reported last week, I think it was on Thursday, as having spoken on this particular Vote, and I was reported as having criticised the action of the Civic Guards with reference to the tearing down of posters. Fortunately, in my constituency there does not appear to have been a great deal of that, and when it did take place I think it took place more through enthusiasm perhaps on both sides. As far as I know, the Gárda Síochána have conducted themselves, at least in my constituency, with honour and credit. But as to the other department, the C.I.D. as it is popularly known, I must say that they seem to be a body of men without any responsibility. There does not seem to be any particular control or head over that body. I do not know of any more dangerous machine in the State than the plain-clothes constables or detectives of that description. Countries a good deal older than ours find considerable difficulty in managing that machine. I believe that a good deal more attention, care and precautions should be taken in manipulating this particular machine. Otherwise we may drift, one of those days, into rather dangerous channels. I have seen in the papers to-day reports of numerous raids all over this country. I wonder what is at the bottom of these raids? Are they necessary, or is there any particular head who has to order such raids? I want to draw the attention of the House, and the people of Ireland in particular, to the effect in foreign countries of such raiders and such raids. We are a nation who are hungry for capital. You are constantly listening in this House to pleas made for credit in the case of farmers who are in such a pitiable plight. We had such pleas even to-day. Except credit can be got inside the country, it will certainly be difficult to get it outside if such raids continue. I believe that it is necessary, therefore, that some substantial reasons be given for these raids.

With reference to the numbers of the Gárda, I want to say that Deputies are well aware that the constituency from which I come is not overpopulated. Certainly to the passer-by the number of Gárdaí employed there seems to be altogether out of proportion to the number of the people. I believe that substantial reductions can be made in the Gárda, at least in my constituency.

As regards the activities of the Gárda, there are a few points that I would like to bring before the Minister for Justice, for his own information. One particular point is the control of traffic. My country is a county that has large tracts depopulated. Motorists from perhaps other counties are inclined to what they call speeding when passing through that county. I believe that some attention should be paid to that. As far as the remarks made by Deputy Heffernan about the Gárda not having the necessary respect—that the necessary respect is not there for the Gárda, or what he calls civic spirit—I believe that will not be brought about except through the action of that body themselves. It will be through their efforts, and through their efforts alone, that that civic assistance and respect will be achieved. I have nothing further to state. The main thing that brought me to my feet is to emphasise, as far as possible, the necessity for a reduction of this Vote in some way.

Mr. CORKERY

I find it hard to agree with some of the speakers who have thrown so many bouquets at the Gárda. My experience of the C.I.D. and the Gárda in my constituency has been mostly the other way. I will give the House a few instances. About two years ago the C.I.D. held up two young men on the bridge in Macroom one evening and threatened to plug them. They gave one of the young fellows a bit of rough handling. He went some hours afterwards and reported the matter to the superintendent. I do not know if the superintendent has any control over the C.I.D. Evidently he has not. He promised this young man to hold an inquiry into the case. He told the young man that he would be called in evidence. That is nearly two years ago but the inquiry has not since been held. Some time afterwards this young man's father, who is a member of the Urban Council, raised the matter at the council meeting and a protest was made. Still the inquiry has not been held up to this date. About twelve months ago two Gárdaí alleged they were fired at near the village of Ballyvourney. About ten or twelve men were arrested that evening or the following evening and taken to the Ballyvourney barracks. Some of them were beaten and one of them was so badly beaten that he brought an action for damages against a C.I.D. man. In that action he was awarded £10. I do not know if the ten pounds has as yet been paid but the C.I.D. man is still there. Those ten or twelve young men were released and on the day after two brothers were arrested. They were brought before the local Justice and remanded. Deputy O'Leary on the other benches and I went bail for them. We knew these men were innocent. Everybody in the district knew they were innocent. The Gárda knew they were innocent. Still the Gárda swore point blank that these two brothers were the men who fired at them. These men were brought before the District Justice seven or eight times. They had to bring in witnesses and they were put to considerable expense, both legal and otherwise. After being brought before the Justice the case continued for, I think six months, and in the end they were returned for trial to the Circuit Court. The case was withdrawn by the State a day or two before it was to come on for trial. These men have never been compensated for their losses in time and money. The Gárda have since been removed. I do not know if they have been promoted.

To show how hard up the Gárda are for something to do down in our district I will mention a case which happened last June. I might explain that it is the custom down there on St. John's Eve to have a bonfire. It is an old custom and I am glad it is being kept up. For some time before St. John's Eve the young lads collect dead wood, turf and so on to make a bonfire. Last year they went round as usual and collected some wood which they stored in the house of one of their parents. Some days afterwards, without going to the parents, the Gárda went to the school and arrested ten or twelve of these young fellows aged from twelve to fourteen years. Notwithstanding the promises to the schoolmaster that they would let the young fellows go to the barracks before them, as soon as they got outside the school they marched them as criminals through the streets.

When they went to the barracks they pretended to ring up the Governor of Cork Jail to ask him to have so many cells ready for these "criminals." After a few hours the boys were released. One of them was ill for some time afterwards from the fright he got. They actually tried to put these children through the "Third Degree," because they had gathered a few rotten sticks to make a bonfire. Some time afterwards, so hard up were they for work, that after Mass on Sunday two of them went into a portion of the Church that is not supposed to be open to the public and remained there until the church was locked up watching the back-door of a publichouse.

Some time ago I was in Cork City on private business and happened to be in a house when some of the C.I.D. raided it. They searched some people that were with me, and attempted to search me, but I objected. They told me that I would have to go to the Union Quay Barracks, and I agreed. I explained that I had a good deal of business to do, and asked if they would bring me to the barracks as soon as they could. They told me I should stay there until they were ready, and they kept me there for an hour, after which I was taken to the barracks and released. They charged me with not giving my name when asked, but I was not asked for my name until taken to the barracks. Anyway, they should know me, because they have seen me often enough.

Mr. CORRY

Will someone waken the Minister for Justice?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I am perfectly awake, and am listening with the greatest attention.

Mr. CORKERY

On Monday last my house was raided and my assistant searched. When he went to his own house for lunch he found them raiding it, and they searched him again. We hear a lot about civic spirit, but those are my experiences of it. We are told that they are a national force. I, for one, do not believe it. The C.I.D. are a purely political force and are not serving any useful purpose—not even a political purpose. The majority of the Guards are all right, but there are too many of them. My idea is that a dozen men or less in a town of, say, 5,000 population, would be sufficient, with proper transport, to police a district within ten mile radius of the town. Instead of that you have anything from half a dozen to a dozen barracks scattered around at a short distance from each other. What they are for nobody seems to know. The Guards have nothing to do but watch public-houses, and, as Deputy Daly said, the price of drink is prohibitive. These are some of the things for which we are asked to pay close on £2,000,000.

Mr. KERLIN

Before the Minister replies, I should like to add a few remarks to what already has been said by Deputy Briscoe and others in connection with the C.I.D. Since the formation of that force their main activities in Dublin and throughout the country have been political. I am sure the Minister will agree that if there was no trouble of a political nature, if there was no political unrest, the main reason for the existence and maintenance of the major portion of the C.I.D. would automatically disappear. I suggest that the members of the C.I.D. have gone out of their way, and are going out of their way, to create trouble and maintain political unrest. There have been suggestions from these benches before of the C.I.D. employing agents provocateurs. So far as I remember, when the suggestions were made the Minister refused to entertain them or to believe that there was any truth in them. During the last year or so I have paid particular attention to this matter, and I have a few particulars with reference to certain people who I suggest were acting in that capacity. There was one individual named Booker who about two years ago was going around Dublin trying to sell parcels of guns and who entered various premises. He was at one time in the premises of a Republican trying to sell some of these guns when the C.I.D. immediately came on the scene. Fortunately the parcel happened to be in his own possession, and the C.I.D. did not succeed in getting anyone into trouble. There was another individual named Fitzgerald, who, as far as I recollect, was attempting to organise an escape from Mountjoy. He brought together three or four young men, and supplied them with guns and a rope ladder, and got them to assemble at a certain place on a particular morning. When they arrived there they were met by a squad of C.I.D., who promptly took them under arrest. This same individual, I think, organised an armed raid on a publichouse in Drumcondra. He gave certain people guns and instructed them to be there next morning. When they turned up they were promptly arrested. There was another individual—I think his name was Hardy—who organised raids on post offices and supplied people with guns to take part in them. Last, but not least, we have the notorious Harling, who, from the evidence given in the Coghlan shooting inquiry, had been going around amongst certain people in Dublin suggesting the formation of organisations and certain practices which would undoubtedly come into conflict with the law. In fact, I remember definitely that at least on two occasions Harling called to my house and proffered certain letters, or what he termed despatches, to members of my family. I am quite sure that if these had been accepted, within half an hour the C.I.D. would have been raiding the premises.

There is another phase of the activities of the C.I.D. to which I should like to refer, and that is a practice which was in existence last year of arresting certain young men suspected of being attached to Republican organisations, or of instructing them to call to the detective headquarters at Pearse Street. When these young men were either arrested or, acting on instructions, called to the detective headquarters, they were offered employment or money if they could supply certain information which members of the detective force wished to obtain. In fact, on these occasions the members of the C.I.D. went so far as to threaten these young men that they would be arrested for various criminal offences that had taken place throughout the city, and when they failed to get any of these men to give the information they required they threatened them as to what would happen if they did not keep these interviews a secret. There was one particular case where a person concerned came to me and made a lengthy statement which I put in the form of an affidavit, but when I went back finally to the young man to get him to sign it, he said he was afraid. He said if this matter was brought up here in the Dáil or in the court, the threats which the C.I.D. made against him would undoubtedly be put into effect. Terrorism was employed to prevent these matters coming into public light. Of course, the Minister for Justice will say these things could not happen, but they have happened, and they will happen again, and, therefore, I would like the Minister to give these complaints serious consideration. He cannot get rid of them or render these activities nonexistent by saying that they do not exist.

Dr. O'DOWD

I wish to enter an emphatic protest against the manner in which raids have been carried out by uniformed and plain-clothes men of the Gárda Síochána in my constituency during the past week-end. Perhaps the Minister will tell us if it is part of the Government's policy to encourage the Civic Guards to carry out these raids on such a lavish scale as they are carried out so as to justify the enormous amount of money that is being spent upon this force.

Deputy Heffernan spoke of the necessity for the inculcation of a civic spirit by the people on these benches. It is very hard to expect people on these benches to do anything when the Civic Guards deliberately go into the houses of prominent Republicans, all through the country, and toss their furniture and their houses about for hours on end. In my own constituency it was singular that the houses that were raided were houses of prominent members of this organisation. In the district of Ballinameen, the houses of the President, Treasurer and Secretary of the local Fianna Fáil Club were raided. The same thing in Mantua and other districts round about North Roscommon. That was no mere accident. We are asked by Deputies on the other side to inculcate a civic spirit and to go out of our way to praise this Civic Guard force. I do not intend to do so. It strikes me that the policy of the Gárda Síochána—the individual members of the Gárda are not to blame— but the policy behind them and the people spurring them on is the old R.I.C. policy of creating crime. It is the policy to defend their own existence, to show justification for the fact that we are spending enormous sums of money—to justify the numbers at present in that force.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs spoke of organised obstruction at political meetings. He said that when he was a Farmers' candidate he could address meetings anywhere he liked, but the moment that he announced that he was an ally of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party he found considerable difficulty in speaking. That is one side of the question. But there is the other side. Armed roughs in the town of Boyle tried to prevent me and my colleague, Deputy Gerald Boland, from speaking, but they were not interfered with by Civic Guards who were present and stood looking on and never tried to prevent them breaking up our meeting. The same had been done in other towns. In Ballaghadereen at a famous election meeting, which subsequently became the topic of discussion in the law courts, there were numerous C.I.D. and plain-clothes men present, yet armed roughs came along and deliberately broke up the Fianna Fáil meeting, without one bit of interference from the Civic Guards.

The Minister for Agriculture said that he had got great assistance from the Civic Guards in that election campaign. I can absolutely testify to the truth of that, because I spent a whole evening in the town of Ballaghadereen stitching heads as a result of the great assistance which the Minister got on that occasion. I had occasion before to point out—and I am referring only to the individual members of the Civic Guards who may have been guilty—that in the town of Ballaghadereen at the election last September, it was a singular thing that every driver without a driver's licence, and every owner of a car that had not a licence, working in the interests of the Fianna Fáil Party, were brought before the next court. Drivers without licences and owners of unlicensed cars working in the interests of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party were not noticed at all. In Strokestown the same thing occurred. They went so far as to summon to court the owner of a car who had a driver's licence because the boy who drove the car had not a driver's licence. In that particular town, under the eyes of the superintendent and other Civic Guards, several unlicensed cars were plying on behalf of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. I can give the Minister if he likes—I do not wish to give it in public—the name of a superintendent of the Civic Guard who actually had an unlicensed car of his own out in the Cumann na nGaedheal interest that day. Yet, we are told that there is no political bias. Of course not. There is no organised obstruction, except on one side. It strikes me very forcibly that the civic spirit, of which we have heard so much this afternoon, will never be what it should be until we have a police force that the people can respect and that is non-partisan and unbiassed.

Mr. CARNEY

One thing strikes me listening to this debate and it is this: that last week-end a number of raids took place in the west, east, south, and north of Ireland.

I would like the Minister particularly to dwell on those raids and tell us did the C.I.D. in each of the provinces have a brain-wave to raid certain people on the same day, or was there someone at the back, some central power, that issued an authority to the Guards and C.I.D. in each area to have these raids carried out. If it were number one, that they merely had a brain storm that these raids should be carried out and that each superintendent of the Guards in the different areas thought this was a suitable time for having the raids, how is it that they had this brain-wave while we were discussing this Vote? If it were the second —that there was some central authority responsible for issuing orders to the effect that these raids were to be carried out—what information was at the disposal of the central authority on which they acted for issuing orders for these raids? Is there any plot to overthrow the State, or has the Minister for Justice any information to the effect that we are going to be invaded by England, Soviet Russia, or whatever the country may be? Let the Minister not treat the matter lightly and wave his hand over it? Let us have some information. We are tired of these accusations, we are tired of hearing "When there is an increase in civic spirit, when these things die down," etc. We want definite information that there was a plot, and definite information as to what caused the Minister to have these raids carried out. Let us adopt the principle of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Posts and Telegraphs. He wants us to come down to bedrock and give specific instances of where there might be a decrease in expenditure. He wants us to get down to twopence-halfpenny and not talk of the Guards scattered through the country villages, which in England would have only one constable responsible for the peace and order of the community. Let the Minister get down to something definite in the same way. Let him not wave his hand, but tell us what the plot is. Let him tell us, when there were a number of raids on a number of people against whom no evidence could be found, why the raids were carried out. We want to hear that from the Minister, and we do not want any vague generalities.

Mr. CORRY

Before the Minister concludes I may state one specific case. A gentleman named Maguire, a C.I.D. man who was very active in my constituency some time ago, was sent up to Dublin for promotion. On his return home, celebrating his promotion, he alighted at Limerick Junction, went into the restaurant and fired several shots. He was knocked down and disarmed by the telegraph clerk, a Mr. Mahony, who was commended by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs for his action. Maguire was then conveyed to a lunatic asylum. He is at present walking round the streets of Cork, presumably in the C.I.D., and carrying arms. Is that one of the trusted individuals who is going to raid our houses at night? I want to know if he were tried for his action, what steps were taken against him, or how it is that he is back in the force and carrying arms.

The MINISTER for JUSTICE (Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney)

This discussion has taken up a very considerable amount of time, and I have listened to a very large number of speeches, some of them very dull, some quite humorous. We had some very long speeches, and, thank goodness, some very short and terse ones also. I think I may safely say one thing has characterised the whole of this debate that —apart from vague generalities that we have too many Guards in barracks, and that the barracks are not properly placed—we had no real criticism of the Estimate itself. The expenditure has not been criticised. Granted that the number of men are necessary, and that the force is properly dispersed, it appears obvious from the course of this debate that the greatest skill, care and efficiency have been shown in spending the money. We have had, of course, some very queer suggestions. We had the magnificent suggestion from Deputy Holt that all it was necessary to do in a town was to have an energetic sexton. As soon as a crime was committed he would toll the bell. The whole community would then turn out and the crime would cease. We had a few suggestions of that nature, but of real practical efficiency we had no suggestions.

This debate, however, was particularly interesting to me on the first day owing to the speeches delivered by Deputy Ruttledge and Deputy Lemass. Deputy Ruttledge's speech was a very pleasant speech for the larger part. I do not know whether Deputy Allen was quite pleased because more than half of Deputy Ruttledge's speech was taken up with quotations from Deputy Gorey and Deputy Heffernan. He is following them very closely. He reads out their speeches as the proper course to be adopted. That is very admirable and excellent. I am glad to see Deputy Ruttledge following along the footsteps of Deputy Gorey and Deputy Heffernan. I wonder he does not put on a little spurt. He is two years behind. Why is he so far behind? Why does he not get his political philosophy from the speeches of those two Deputies as delivered now? I think he would be reading in a sounder school of philosophy then.

Mr. LEMASS

He is not a quick-change artist.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

He is coming on admirably. I have great hopes of Deputy Ruttledge. He will improve enormously. Deputy Lemass seems to have given a little shock. We now discover where Deputy Lemass gets his facts and fictions about Irish life. It is hard on poor Deputy Seán T. O'Kelly and his poor little paper, "The Nation." Deputy Lemass is not going to him for his information. No, he is going to the "Sunday Times." When Deputy Lemass wants facts or fiction about Irish life he goes to the "Sunday Times." I am afraid Deputy Allen will have to take him to task.

Mr. ALLEN

He did not go to the "Freeman" for it.

Mr. LEMASS

That ceased publication.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

He could go to the "Freeman" with great profit. For the present, he is confining himself to the "Sunday Times." If Deputy Lemass would allow me to say so, he used the fiction—for I cannot call it fact—which he got out of the "Sunday Times" with great skill, with great humour, and I think I rather know why he was inclined to use it. To borrow a phrase from Deputy Lemass—a beautiful little mixture of metaphor in which he indulged during the Army debate— I think he used this "Because Deputy Little had landed himself in the soup." How you can land yourself in liquid I do not know, but I quite understand the meaning which Deputy Lemass had in mind when using that expressive phrase. Deputy Little landed himself in the soup because he went on to talk about the civilian clothes worn by Civic Guards, how they appeared too well dressed and how people would be jealous of them. That, to me, is a bit of a conundrum. Deputy Anthony went on the same lines. Everybody, apparently, is interested to know where the Gárdaí get their civilian attire. It is not sufficient, according to Deputy Anthony, that they buy their clothes from Irish tailors and that they are made out of Irish materials. They must also take the greatest care that their clothes are stitched in Ireland. I suppose in future they will have to get affidavits from their tailors stating where the stitching is done. I do not think that that is practicable. If you go to an Irish tailor and order Irish material, it ought to be sufficient.

Deputy Little objects to them being in decent clothes, and apparently wants them to go in rags. That is very much of the same type of argument we hear—that they are not to have decent barracks, that there is too much expenditure on them, and that, as Deputy MacEntee says, you cannot eat your loaf and have it or spend the same pound twice. The Gárdaí are not to be properly housed because, unfortunately, there are a great number of people who are not properly housed. The Gárdaí should not be properly clothed because, unfortunately, a great number of people are not properly clothed. I notice, however, that Deputy Little himself is always one of the most neatly-dressed Deputies in the House and is as well-dressed as a superintendent or chief-superintendent of the Gárdaí. Why this vicarious charity? Why is charity to be carried out at the expense of the Gárdaí only? Why do these people who say that the Gárdaí should not be properly clothed and housed not give an example themselves? If these good, true and honest servants of the State—that is the almost universal opinion of the House about them—are not to be properly dressed and properly housed owing to the poverty of this country——

Mr. CLERY

Would the Minister tell us what Deputy stated that the Gárdaí should not be properly housed?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I heard again and again attacks on barracks, that the Guards should remain improperly housed and that they should get nothing but very reasonable housing. I object to that spirit of vicarious charity by people who stand, as it were, at the crossroads like signposts pointing the way but never following it.

Mr. ANTHONY

I do not want the Minister to mix up what I said with what Deputy Little said.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I am not speaking of the Deputy.

Mr. ANTHONY

I do not object to the Guards being properly housed, but what I did suggest, and I am sure the Minister will admit it, was that there are master-tailors in Dublin who will give a guarantee that the garments will be made in Ireland. Surely the Minister must know that. I do not want an affidavit from my tailor because I go to a recognised master-tailor who employs trade union labour and that is sufficient guarantee for me.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I had long since passed from Deputy Anthony and was dealing with Deputy Little. I have got the greatest contempt for this spirit of vicarious charity. Somebody, for instance, comes to Deputy Little and asks him for half-a-crown, and he says, "Oh, yes, but I must subtract it from the next Civic Guard." Now I come to that part of Deputy Ruttledge's speech when he came out as himself and abandoned a better school of political philosophy than that in which he is now standing, and, with certain other Deputies, including Deputy Little, whose extraordinary ideas——

Mr. LITTLE

On a point of personal explanation, the Minister completely misrepresents me. I was comparing the appearance of the old R.I.C. with the extremely good dress of the present men. I think the contrast is quite justified—contrasting the present poverty of the people with those ornamental figures who are walking about our landscape.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

That was not the Deputy's speech. Supposing the Gárdaí spend money on clothes, why should these young, self-respecting men, if they think that they should appear in public properly dressed, not do so? I come now to the original parts of Deputy Ruttledge's remarks, original inasmuch as they were part of his own philosophy and particular method. He was followed along the same path by Deputy Little, and then Deputy Holt came trotting along a very bad third. They dealt with the cost of the R.I.C. The Estimate of the R.I.C. for all Ireland in the year 1919 was £1,443,422, according to those Deputies, but if you look at the Appropriation Accounts for 1918-19 you will find that, in addition to that Estimate mentioned by the Deputies, there was a Supplementary Estimate of £134,105 and a sum of £325,096 allocated from the Vote to provide remuneration for public servants whose pay was not adjusted to meet the increased cost of living.

The total grant for the R.I.C. for the year 1918-19 was £1,902,623. That is quite a different figure from that which the Deputies put before the House. The grant for the D.M.P. for the same year was £167,248, making a total of £2,069,870, out of which £2,065,000 was actually expended. When you compare the Vote for the police for the year 1918-19 you must bear two things in mind. The first point is that their numbers had been slightly reduced owing to members of the force going on military service. Secondly, the increased pay granted to the police forces in Great Britain and Ireland in 1919 did not affect the expenditure during the financial year 1918-19, as the new rates were payable only on the 1st April, 1919. To find a proper basis of comparison between the cost of the Gárdaí and that of the R.I.C. and D.M.P., I think it would be better and fairer to turn to the year 1919-20. The total grant for the police forces for the year 1919-20 was £3,340,592, out of which a sum of £3,242,045 was actually expended.

Mr. LEMASS

Would the Minister say how much of that went in ammunition?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

No, I cannot tell you. But we must bear in mind that this was not in the Black and Tan days. They did not come in until the next year. It was not until the year 1920-21 that they came on the scene. The Appropriation Accounts show that the actual total expenditure in connection with the R.I.C. for that year was £5,967,101, while the actual expenditure on the D.M.P. during the same year jumped to £336,765, as compared with £165,600 for the year 1918-19. I am taking what is really the last year before there was any Black and Tan increase, and that shows how utterly erroneous the figures of Deputy Ruttledge and of other Deputies are. As I have already said, in 1919-20 the total cost of the police forces in Ireland, the R.I.C. and the D.M.P., was three and a quarter million pounds. I will now give a figure which, I think, will rather surprise the House. If the Saorstát were now policed to the same extent that the whole country was policed by the R.I.C., and if the police here were paid at the Royal Ulster Constabulary rate, this Estimate would be increased by £600,000. In other words, by cutting down the number of police and reducing the scale of pay we have reduced the cost of policing the Saorstát by about £600,000 a year. That is a very big reduction.

Mr. LITTLE

Might I ask if the Minister considers that the conditions in Ireland at present are the same as the conditions that obtained in the year 1919-20?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

The number of police who were in Ireland in 1919-20 was a normal number, rather less, as I have said, than it had been in 1914-15. After that the expenditure went up, and the number increased becaused these so-called Auxiliaries were added on.

Mr. CARNEY

Might I ask a question? The Minister referred to the Royal Ulster Constabulary, and has compared the conditions in the two forces. Is it not a fact that we in the Free State are responsible for a big proportion of the expenditure of the Royal Ulster Constabulary: that is, payments to those who formerly belonged to the R.I.C. and who are now members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

There is no pension payable to anybody who is serving in the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

Mr. CARNEY

I am not talking about pensions, but of payments.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

We are paying no one in the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

Mr. CARNEY

Does the Minister state that definitely?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Yes. The Government of the Six Counties bears the whole cost itself of its police forces. Deputy Lemass made a rather surprising statement that he had information that the pay of the English police was very much lower than the pay of the Civic Guards. He said that he had some document which could show it. Well, that comes as an astonishing thing to me, because all the information at my disposal is this: that the pay of the English police force is identical with the pay of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, and that is a very much higher rate of pay than that given to the Civic Guards.

Mr. LEMASS

Which of the English police forces is the Minister now referring to?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

There are, I know, different English police forces, but if my information is correct, they are all paid a flat rate of pay. My information is that a flat rate of pay was introduced some years ago for the police forces all over England. I now propose to give some figures with regard to the different rates of pay in force here and those paid to the Royal Ulster Constabulary. All the higher ranks in the Royal Ulster Constabulary are paid a much higher rate of pay than the higher ranks in the Gárda Síochána in this State. The rate of pay for a Guard here goes from 60/- to 83/- a week, while for a constable in the Royal Ulster Constabulary it ranges from 70/- to 95/- a week. The rate for sergeants here goes from 87/- to 98/6 a week, while for a sergeant in the Royal Ulster Constabulary it goes from 100/- to 112/6 a week. The rate for inspectors here is from £280 to £300 a year, and for a head constable in Northern Ireland the rate is from £310 to £355 a year. It must be known, of course, that inspectors here do more important work than a head constable in Northern Ireland, because they have to take the place of officers.

Deputy Ruttledge wondered very much why we wanted 126 superintendents in this State. I might inform the Deputy that we cut down the number of superintendents compared with the number of district inspectors here in the days of the old R.I.C. There used to be 163 district inspectors serving in the area that is now covered by these superintendents. Deputy Jordan remarked that these figures should not be taken as figures of any real substantial value because, he said, the land war was going on then. As a matter of fact, in the figures which I have given I did not take anything like a peak figure at all. I took the lowest figure for the Royal Irish Constabulary. When the land war was on the figures were very much higher. For instance, the figures for the whole of Ireland in the year 1897 show over 2,000 more men roughly—that is, 12,000 men as against 10,000 in the year 1914-1915. As Deputies will remember, the Liberal Government was in office in that year, and it was the policy of everybody to see that there was no disturbance of any kind.

A great deal of attack has been made upon the Civic Guards because they are said to be a political force and that they did political work for the Cumann na nGaedheal Party at the last election. I deny the accuracy of those accusations. I was glad to hear the more serious one withdrawn in the most unqualified fashion to-night. Deputy Lemass put a definite question to me. He picked me out personally and asked if I received any assistance from the Civic Guards at the last election. I am in a position to say that I did not receive any. Many of my colleagues have said that they did receive assistance from the Civic Guards inasmuch as they desired to have their election speeches delivered in a quiet atmosphere, and that if there had not been Civic Guards there that there would have been interruptions. I am in a more fortunate position, because I must say that in my constituency during the September election I was never interrupted once. I was allowed to carry on my meetings in the utmost peace and harmony, and I think that every political party who spoke in the South Mayo election would say exactly the same. We fought out our election without any disturbance or row of any kind. Deputy Lemass also said—I do not know where he got the information from—that the Guards in my constituency tore down election pamphlets and placards. That is not correct, as far as I know. I do not believe that on any side were election placards torn down. I think that all parties did allow each other's placards to remain up to do whatever useful work they could do and to make as many converts as they possibly could. I think that on this particular occasion, and in this particular instance, that Deputy Lemass has allowed his imagination too much free play.

Mr. LEMASS

Will the Minister hold an inquiry into the conduct of the Civic Guards at that election?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

It would be just as sensible to hold an inquiry into the conduct of the Civic Guards in South Mayo as to hold an inquiry into their conduct in the great number of cases in which I have been asked to hold an inquiry.

Mr. LEMASS

Just as sensible, I agree.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

That is to say, no reason at all. I have heard the most extraordinary statements made in regard to the number of Civic Guard stations. It is said that the number has not been reduced. Deputy Mullins said we had now the same number of barracks as the Royal Irish Constabulary had. Figures evidently mean nothing to some people.

Mr. MULLINS

On a point of correction, I did not say the number of barracks. I said the policy of the Government seemed to be to have the barracks in the same places.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

You cannot have a smaller number in the same places. I am afraid that dog will not fight.

Mr. MULLINS

The correction was as to places and not as to numbers.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

You cannot fill up 1,100 places with 800 barracks. Deputy Jordan spoke about Co. Galway. I am in a position to give the actual numbers as regards that county. I find there are 62 Gárda Síochána stations in Co. Galway, compared with 94 R.I.C. barracks in 1914. Deputy Jordan led the House to believe exactly the same number of barracks were in Co. Galway now as in the days of the R.I.C.. The strength of the Gárda Síochána in the Co. Galway, including all ranks, amounts to 385, as against the R.I.C. strength of 900 on the 1st January, 1914. We have reduced the number of barracks by one-third, and the number of police serving there by more than one-half. Deputy Kilroy came to the Co. Mayo. As a matter of fact there are 46 Gárda stations in Co. Mayo, and there were 63 R.I.C. barracks in 1914. The authorised strength of the Gárda Síochána in Mayo is 291, as against the R.I.C. strength of 404 on the 1st January, 1914. Of course it must be understood that where there is a reduction in the number of stations it becomes necessary to make a rearrangement of certain districts. In some cases this may involve the establishment of a new station at some more central place than the station it replaces. That explains how in Co. Mayo there may be barracks where there was not one before—that is because the area has been altered, and where you had three barracks before there are two now, one in a new place. If you kept the barracks in the old places you could not sufficiently supervise the work in the new areas. Other Deputies say there are too many barracks, and that we could do with a far and away lesser number of them, and that if we had a more mobile force with a number of men with motor bicycle, and with the use of telephones, as suggested by Deputy MacEntee you would lessen the necessity for having the present number of barracks. That is not so.

Consider the work the Guards have to do. They have to go out at night, remain around public houses and watch against the commission of crime. The sudden passing of a patrol on motor bicycles would be insufficient. People would say "the patrol has passed and we are safe for the rest of the night." They have to go along quietly, or remain in ambush, and watch out generally. They could not do that with a couple of noisy motor bicycles announcing that they have arrived. They could not cross fields and walls and go into certain villages if tied down to motor bicycles. Any Deputy who comes to consider the question seriously will see that the bulk of the Guards' work must be done on foot, or done with the assistance of the ordinary push bike. As far as telephones are concerned, they would be very useful if every country house had a telephone. In the cities you have telephones but not in the country districts. There are huge areas where between one small country town and another there would not be a single telephone. Deputy MacEntee is living in Dublin, and he seems to know nothing about farm houses. No farm house has a telephone, and it would be necessary for the person who wants the police to go to the Guards' station. That is why the Guards must be conveniently stationed where the people can get them when needed, and where they can report crime if they know that crime is happening and there is a clear necessity for having that crime reported.

I would like to say a word here with reference to a remark made by Deputy Ruttledge, to the effect that a statute cut down the police rate in Dublin at the rate of a penny in the pound in the year and the City Commissioners were taking false credit for that reduction. In the rate struck after the 1st April, 1925, by statute the rate for the Dublin Metropolitan area, which is not the same as Dublin city, goes down by a penny in the pound in the year. Of the sum which appears in the estimate of £32,400 a sum of £23,731 is struck off the city, and £8,769 from the surrounding areas. The following figures show the speed at which the rates have come down. In 1924-25 the rates were 19/2 in the pound; 1925-26, 17/2; 1926-27, 16/-; 1927-28, 15/6; 1928/29, 14/8; and to say that a drop of 4/6 in the pound is due because successively for two years a penny in the pound has been taken off the police rate is grossly unfair. I am sure Deputy Ruttledge did not do so on purpose but it appears to be very unfair to the City Commissioners. A considerable number of attacks have been made on the Civic Guards because, it is said, they have been misconducting themselves in the force. We have had old cases and a certain number of new cases brought forward. We had from Deputy Ruttledge the old Newport affair, which was dealt with a long time ago. Deputy Ruttledge said that Guards fired into their own barracks. That charge was fully investigated and it was found they did not fire into their own barracks.

The suggestion was made that a Guard actually fired at a barracks in which his own wife and children were residing, endangering their lives. That charge has been brought up here, unsupported by any evidence, although it had been fully inquired into. Subsequent action after that barracks had been fired into that was not proper by the Gárda was fully gone into, and the Guards in question were fully and properly dealt with. I want to take this opportunity of saying here, clearly and definitely, that if any person considers that he has been aggrieved by anything done by any Guard, the courts are open to him and he has his redress. If a Guard commits an assault upon any individual, that Guard is as much liable to such punishment as the law provides as any other member of the community.

Mr. CORRY

Why should he be afterwards retained in the force?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

As far as the discipline of the force is concerned, that discipline is sternly maintained, and wherever a Guard, whether acting through excessive zeal or through any other motive, is adjudged by his authorities to have acted wrongly, punishment adequate to the offence follows, and always follows.

Mr. CORRY

Tell us what punishment was given to the Guards——

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

Deputy Corry must restrain himself.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I have never in this House condoned, and the authorities of the Guards have never condoned, illegal actions on behalf of the Guards. But when charges are wrongly brought in this House against innocent men I have always repudiated them, and I will continue always to repudiate them. As far as it lies with me I will not allow this House to be made a place in which slanderous charges can be made and can pass without contradiction. Deputy Gorry is very anxious to intervene. Deputy Gorry intervened in this debate a short time ago. I think that Deputies should have a little regard for facts. Deputy Gorry talked to us about the capture of a man whom he called by the very pleasant title of the "One-eyed Gunner"—a very beautiful title for a man to possess; a very unlikely title for a law-abiding citizen to possess, but I pass by that.

Mr. CORRY

It was the title used by your Crown Prosecutor.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

It was used by Deputy Gorry in this House as the title by which the man was known. The Deputy stated definitely that the charges against that man had, with one exception, been dropped. They have not been dropped.

Mr. GORRY

I would like the Minister to correct a mistake he has made. He has been using my name, and he should have referred to Deputy Corry.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I owe the Deputy such a deep apology that I feel I cannot make it earnest enough, but to avoid confusion I will make it plain that I am talking about the Deputy from North Cork who ornaments the back bench of the Fianna Fáil Party.

A DEPUTY

East Cork.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Well, whatever part of Cork he comes from. That Deputy stated here that two charges had been made and had been withdrawn. Those charges have not been withdrawn, but are still pending against this man. I asked the Deputy the name of the particular individual to whom he was alluding and he gave it. I asked him what he had been charged with, and he answered: "With attempting to escape." Deputy Byrne asked was he not charged with attempting to kill, and Deputy Corry said: "No, he was charged with attempting to escape." That man comes from the Deputy's constituency, and the Deputy had been speaking in this House about him again and again. It had appeared in the papers, if nothing else, and the Deputy knew that that man had been sent for trial on a charge of attempted murder, and yet the Deputy gets up and makes a statement of that nature, which he must have known to be untrue.

Mr. CORRY

On a point of information: There are two view-points. I consider if you are running away to prevent a fellow running after you——

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

Deputy Corry has had his say.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Deputy Corry deliberately stated in this House that the man was charged with attempting to escape, and it will take a great deal to make me, at any rate, believe that at the time he made that statement the Deputy did not know perfectly well that the man had been sent for trial on a charge of attempted murder.

Mr. CORRY

I said before that I would take no notice of what you stated he was sent for trial for.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

We had a great many attacks upon the detective branch of the force, and, by the way, I may inform Deputy Lemass that he made a very considerable mistake when he was dealing with this branch of the force, because seeing that there was an allowance to officers and men upon detective duty of 7/- a week, and that there was also a plain-clothes allowance for 336 men—235 being the other figure—he assumed that these figures were cumulative. They are not cumulative; the 336 includes the 235, because detectives also receive a plain-clothes allowance. The plain-clothes allowance is, of course, given in lieu of uniform. Several Deputies have talked about that branch of the force. I want to say, clearly and definitely, that we have one police force, and one police force only, and that every single member of our police force has to be a detective if the necessity arises. Some of them are put upon plain-clothes duty; some of them are not. It is the duty of every Guard to detect crime—every single one, without exception. Some of them are put on plain-clothes duty. They are just as well trained, they are just as well disciplined, and they are just as highly efficient and as honourable men as any other men.

I have been asked many questions about raids which took place recently. One would really think that Deputies opposite lived up in the moon, that they never came down to earth, that they do not know what is happening around them. Are Deputies opposite ignorant of the fact that there is a considerable number of dangerous and desperate men in this country who are trying to upset the established order of things by force of arms, who wish to upset the established Constitution by force of arms, and who, in order to carry out their design, are willing to stop at very little—indeed to stop at nothing? Are Deputies opposite ignorant of the fact that within the last few years, unfortunately on more occasions than one, individual unarmed Civic Guards in their barracks have been shot dead, have been murdered? Are Deputies ignorant of that? Are Deputies ignorant of the fact that one of the most appalling crimes, not only in the history of this country but in the history of Europe, was committed little more than a year ago, when one of the brightest brains and one of the noblest characters that this country ever produced was foully murdered? Are Deputies opposite entirely ignorant of that? Does not every Deputy know that underneath the surface there is still seething this evil spirit? Do Deputies not know that there are a considerable number of men in this country who are anxious, if the opportunity comes, to indulge in crime again to achieve their ends? I do not believe that there is a single Deputy who, although he may not say it, is blind to the existence of that state of facts. And it is the duty of the whole of the Guards, the detective branch and every other branch, to see that conspiracies of that nature shall not come to a head and that crimes of murder shall not be committed. Deputies asked why did these raids take place last week, and they asked me to give them, nicely and quietly, the information which I have got at my disposal. I do not intend to do anything of the kind. I am not going to help criminals by allowing precisely what is known to be publicly circulated, even for the information of Deputies.

Mr. CARNEY

Does the Minister mean to insinuate that I am a criminal?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I do not.

Mr. CARNEY

Then he had better be careful of what he says.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I said that what is known about them would not be publicly circulated, even for the information of Deputies. That is what I stated.

Mr. CARNEY

Let us hear about the plots.

Mr. MULLINS

Will the Minister answer the question I put to him with reference to the executive officers of Fianna Fáil in Bantry, and will he state whether they are criminals or whether this Party to which they belong is a suspect Party?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I will say this much, that I have not at the present moment any particulars as to what individuals were raided. I do not know. But this much I am perfectly satisfied about, that any man who was raided must only have been raided because he was, in some way or another, connected with persons who are known to be dangerous men.

"Show me your company, and I will tell you what you are." If you associate with men known to be dangerous you certainly may come under suspicion—even Deputy Mullins might come under suspicion if he spent his whole life with known dangerous persons.

Mr. T. SHEEHY (W. Cork)

There is no fear of that.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Possibly not. To get down perhaps to less interesting matters of detail, Deputy Davin asked me about the speed of motor cars. Deputy Murphy put the same question to me. Deputy Murphy seemed to think that motor buses could go at any rate they liked. That is not so. The law at the present moment is that no motor bus can travel over twenty miles an hour, but an important Committee has recommended that twenty-five miles an hour is a fair and proper speed at which to go, and I believe the whole community is behind that view. People do travel in motor buses and they know that twenty-five miles an hour is a fair rate on an open road. Of course, that would not be allowed in the city; but to institute a prosecution because a bus was going at twenty-three miles an hour on an open road would, I think, make the community laugh. What we want is to have our legislation up-to-date. Of course, it will be brought up-to-date, but everything cannot be done at once. If we keep the buses to twenty-five miles an hour it will be a very hard thing to do—and only prosecute when they are going over twenty-five miles an hour—and I think we shall be doing extremely good work. I believe the House approves of allowing them to go at twenty-five miles an hour. I do not think that anyone would substantially object to it.

Mr. GOOD

Will the Minister say that any bus known to travel in excess of twenty-five miles an hour will be prosecuted?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Certainly. Every bus that travels over twenty-five miles an hour will be prosecuted, and we are giving strict instructions that that is to be done. I know that it has been stated that that is dispensing with the existing law. It may be necessary on occasions, pending legislation, to keep in complete touch with public opinion. For instance, I may say that in England orders were issued that the police were not to prosecute for first offences of a small nature.

Mr. HENNESSY

Does the order apply in the rival areas?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Anywhere, if they go over twenty-five miles an hour. If they exceed fifteen miles in a town they may be prosecuted, if they are driving dangerously. On the open road, I think it is common sense not to if they travel at 25 miles an hour.

Mr. GOOD

When it is over that speed they will be prosecuted?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Yes, they will.

Mr. CORRY

Is not that ignoring the law? The law says twenty miles an hour.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Deputy Gorey asked me how many Guards were engaged on transport duty. Taking an average for the whole year, there are somewhat more than 250 men employed on week days on some form of traffic control, and on Sundays the number is increased to nearly 350. That cannot be regarded as a completely accurate figure. It must be taken as an estimate. Naturally the number will vary from time to time. Deputy Anthony was very strong as to whether foreign articles were imported for sale to the Guards. I may say that the Board of Works who supplied these articles informed me that all the furniture supplied during the last three or four years was manufactured mainly in the Saorstát, with the exception of fenders and lamps. The Purchasing Department for bedding materials is the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. The contract for these materials since May, 1927, amounted to the value of £4,854 8s. 1d., of which only contracts to the value of £314 were placed outside the Saorstát, these being almost entirely for cotton pillow-cases, where the price was less than the lowest Saorstát tender by thirty to forty per cent. It would appear that every effort is being made, as it ought rightly be made, to see that articles used by the Guards are purchased in the Saorstát.

Deputy MacEntee made some allusions to the raid at Roebuck House. I answered the Deputy very fully in a question that he put to me, and there is nothing that I can add to the information that I then gave. He was very ingenious in spinning out suspicions, but we have already had a little example of Deputy MacEntee's suspicions. In the Coughlan case Deputy MacEntee was most suspicious, and gave us a whole lot of suspicions which were most ingeniously worked out, but when an inquiry was held the utter worthlessness of Deputy MacEntee's suspicions, and how baseless they were, was clearly demonstrated by the court. I do not pay very much attention to Deputy MacEntee's suspicions when directed against the Guards. Deputy Sir James Craig made a complaint about there being no supervision over publichouses in Tramore on Sundays. I will have inquiries made into that matter. I believe a great number of people go there from Waterford on Sundays, and if there is not adequate supervision we will see that adequate supervision will be applied. Deputy Clery spoke about Irish in the Guards, and seemed to suggest that Irish was being neglected. That is not the case. Everything is done to encourage Irish amongst the Guards. Where possible, Irish speakers are sent to Irish-speaking districts, and Guards who know a smattering of Irish are sent to these districts also, so that having a foundation they may be able to build up a sound knowledge of the language. These are the only matters that I think it is necessary to refer to in detail. I am not going into every charge that was made against the Guards, such as the mysterious gentleman who is in the position of being husband of a postmistress, and does not seem to have any other personality, whose wife appears to have been interviewed by someone who may have been a Civic Guard, that Deputy Goulding told us about.

Mr. GOULDING

Will the Minister have the matter investigated?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

How on earth can I have that matter investigated when I am merely told that it is the husband of a postmistress in a Deputy's constituency?

Mr. LITTLE

Clashmore.

Mr. GOULDING

I think it should be possible for the Minister to get particulars of the matter.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

On these vague matters I am not going to hold any investigation. These things are very typical indeed. A Deputy gets a letter from the husband of a postmistress and he asks here in the House that a solemn inquiry should be held, simply because he gets that letter and believes the contents of it. That is the type of application we are getting, and that is just the class of evidence that is being presented to us for the purpose of holding investigations.

Mr. GOULDING

I have another letter from the man insisting on the matter being investigated. Surely he is entitled to it? He and his wife are servants of the State, and surely they are entitled to protection?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

They are, and the courts are open to them; but I am not going to hold an investigation simply because somebody writes to the Deputy. As regards the matters put forward by Deputy Corkery, I shall be glad if I am able to deal with one of the cases he brought up. He brought up a matter about Ballyvourney barracks, and he said that in a case arising out of matters down there, there was a decree given against the Guards for £10. There were men arrested, and one was so badly beaten that he took an action against the Guards and got a decree for £10. We happen to know a good deal about that case because it was the subject of a question here some time back. The jury found that the assault was trivial and they awarded £10, obviously giving what we might term vindictive or punitive damages. If Deputies read the report of that case and saw the nature of the injuries alleged they would observe that the man had a black and blue shoulder. That is the only injury alleged. If it had not been a Guard the amount would have been about 10/- and not £10. What kind of violence did it take to make a man's shoulder black and blue? I wonder are there any Deputies who have not had their shoulders black and blue? I have had mine made black and blue and green and yellow simply because I fired out of a gun that kicked because the cartridge was wet. In circumstances like that one will discover the extraordinarily small amount of violence that it takes to discolour the skin of his shoulder. Any Deputy who has shot a snipe will agree with me, and I am sure at some time or another Deputies have fired at snipe.

Mr. LITTLE

Does the Minister consider that the Guards are entitled with impunity to use violence?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I have stated to the Deputy in as clear a manner as I possibly could, in perfectly clear language, that the Guards are never entitled to use violence towards anybody.

Mr. LITTLE

Was disciplinary action taken in that particular case?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

In that particular case the assault which took place was completely trivial. The Guard committed this trivial assault in certain circumstances. He was making investigations immediately after an occurrence, the occurrence being the attempted murder of one of his comrades, and naturally the man was a little excited. The £10 which he had to pay was considered to be ample punishment.

Mr. CORRY

Was he not promoted?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I may tell the Deputy that where serious injury is done to a person by the Guards the Guards are dismissed from their posts for it. It is within the knowledge of several Deputies who have spoken to me on the subject that Guards have been dismissed from the force. Persons they assaulted were very anxious that they would not be dismissed, because by being dismissed they are not a mark for damages, and if we retain them they are a mark for damages. That is not, however, a matter that we can look into. If a Guard misconducts himself he must be punished, and the punishment will, as nearly as possible, be commensurate with the particular crime with which he is charged.

Deputy Kerlin got up to-night and made certain charges that there were agents provocateurs attached to the Guards. I entirely repudiate that the Guards employ, or have ever employed, agents provocateurs. To my mind nothing more shocking could be done by the members of any police force than to employ agents provocateurs, to employ a man who deliberately will have crime committed. That class of man we do not employ.

Mr. O'KELLY

You do, and we know it, and we will name some of them for you.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

The Deputy has not spoken yet, and I am glad to hear him now.

Mr. O'KELLY

I have spoken now, and I always do to some effect.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I was afraid that I had annoyed the Deputy with my opening remarks, but I am glad to see him smile.

Mr. KERLIN

Did not your Department employ Harling?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Yes, but he was not employed by the Guards to do the work of an agent provocateur. The only thing said about Harling at the sworn inquiry was that he asked somebody to take away a typewriter which he seems to have had a certain amount of claim to.

Mr. BRISCOE

Did he not also admit——

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I think that Harling is about the last name that the Deputies opposite should mention. Harling is a man upon whom a murderous attempt was made. I think the Deputies opposite have shown their appreciation of that.

Mr. BRISCOE

In the sworn testimony did the Minister find a reference to the fact that Harling tried to start a new boy scouts' organisation, the aim and objects of which were to overthrow the State?

Mr. O'KELLY

While he was still employed by the State.

Mr. BRISCOE

Yes, while he was in the employment of the State.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I have no recollection of that occurring at the inquiry.

Mr. O'KELLY

The Minister has a convenient memory.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

If he had done so, he would have been acting extremely wrongly.

Mr. KENNEDY

He would not be dismissed.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

He would.

Mr. BRISCOE

It was admitted by Harling himself in cross-examination, and he was not dismissed.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

What was admitted?

Mr. BRISCOE

That he did seek to start a new organisation.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I have had to leave out a very considerable number of things mentioned by Deputies in the course of the debate, but I cannot forget Deputy Moore. It would be a great pity were I to forget Deputy Moore. His heart is wrung because some poor lady had her licence taken away for the crime that she did not sell Bass in bottles. Deputy Moore got up full of indignation and asked if it were a crime in this country that persons should not stock Bass and that this lady was to be persecuted for that. One would think that this lady was a martyr enduring punishment simply because she did not stock foreign-made beer in bottles. The instructions issued to the Guards—and this also answers Deputy Davin—is that the publichouses which do the smallest amount of business are the ones which are to be extinguished first. The policy is to begin with the small ones, obviously the ones that are too numerous, and then go on to the bigger ones. That is the policy all over the country.

This particular lady happened to own a publichouse which had always been well-conducted. She was doing the smallest amount of business of any publican in her particular town. She, accordingly, was the one that was fixed upon to have an order made in respect of her premises, and her licence was the one to be extinguished because she was obviously doing a small amount of business. One of the tests to be applied in these cases was: what does the publican stock? That was a natural test. Now the country publichouse which does not stock Bass is not doing a great deal of business. As a matter of fact, this particular case was adjourned to see what sort of stock the lady had ordered for a considerable time past. The case, however, never came on for a hearing because, by consent, the licence was extinguished. Her solicitor wrote saying he would not contest the order of the Justice. This was a very natural test. "Is the publican selling Bass, Guinness's stout, or whiskey?" These are the three drinks that are most in use.

I think I have really gone through as many of the smaller items as possible. I hope I have not left anything very material out. I am very glad, however, that, taken as a whole, there has been with very few exceptions a genuine appreciation expressed of the Gárdai and of the work the Gárdaí are doing. That appreciation has come from all Parties in the House and it is extremely pleasant and gratifying. It has been stated that the Gárda Síochána are political. It would be absolutely wrong that they should be political. The policy of this Government is perfectly plain. The Gárda must not be political. They must not belong to one side more than to another. I think a clear proof has been given of that policy and in the carrying out of that policy by the action which the Executive Government took some time ago. If it had been the desire of the Executive Government that they should have a partisan force, the last thing they would do would be to disfranchise the force. They have disfranchised the Gárdaí. No member of the Gárda Síochána has a vote. The reason of that is so that they may not be partisans by adherence to any political party. There may be men here and there who may break out, who may have strong political views. Everyone has political views and people may on occasions do a little more than they should. But that the force, as a force, is impartial is, I think, pretty well established, and I believe it is pretty well known. Deputy Tubridy stated that two sergeants were removed from Galway because they refused to be partisans. That is not so. As a matter of fact, I happen to have read the file of this sergeant. He was a very good sergeant but he did not get on very well with the people in his neighbourhood, and he did not get on with the landlord of the barracks; there was a great deal of friction between them, and it was thought better to remove the sergeant to another station. He was removed to a nice station in the County Roscommon and if you go from the wilds of Connemara to the centre of Roscommon I do not know that you are doing very badly. It was Lord Halifax who talked about being kicktd upstairs. That would be very much like being kicked upstairs, so most people would conclude.

Mr. GOULDING

The Minister has stated that members of the force against whom charges are proved are dismissed the force. Are Spain and Hartigan still in the force? These are men against whom very heavy damages were given. I also want to know why Inspector O'Riordan was transferred from Cappoquin at the same time?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I would like to know what is the Deputy's idea and what does he mean by "very heavy damages," because my recollection is that the damages were not very heavy. These men were not dismissed from the force because they did not seriously injure those persons.

Mr. GOULDING

The men were convicted of a brutal and murderous assault and mulcted in damages of £30.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

My recollection was that it was £5 or £10.

Mr. GOULDING

It was £30.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

£30 was the highest. I do not call that heavy damages.

Mr. GOULDING

They were convicted of conduct unworthy of the force. Are these men retained in the force?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

They are retained.

Mr. CORRY

I want to say that there is one man named Maguire who shot up Limerick Junction some four or five months ago. Where is he at present? Is he walking around Cork with a gun in his hand or has he gone back to the asylum?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

The Deputy is acting in this matter just as I expected the Deputy would act. After all, insanity is a visitation of God, and I think most of the Deputies in this House have sympathy with an unfortunate man who goes mad. I do not think that any Deputy here except the Deputy who has asked the question would jeer at that particular man because God deprived him of his senses.

Mr. CORRY

I have not jeered at him. I have information that that particular individual is in the C.I.D. forces in Cork. I think that an individual who acted as he acted should not be walking around Cork with a gun.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

I called attention to a particular case where a sergeant of the Gárdaí was disbelieved by the District Justice. Has the Minister anything to say about that?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I inquired into this matter very carefully. It was one of the first things I intended mentioning, but there was an enormous mass of items and I overlooked it. I have seen the file in that case, and also the newspaper report. What happened in that case was: A charge of poteen-making was brought against a father and son. The sergeant and a Guard were examined. They swore to a certain state of affairs. The defendants were examined and swore to another state of affairs. The District Justice, in making up his mind, decided that he would give the benefit of the doubt to the defendants, and that in consequence he could not believe and would not act on the stories of the Gárdaí. The Deputy must know that when there is a question of oath against oath no one particular individual, a District Justice or a jury, can ever be certain which side is telling the truth when the evidence on either side cannot be corroborated. That matter was carefully investigated and carefully gone into by the superior officers of the sergeant, who came to the conclusion that every single word that the Gárda and the sergeant had stated was true. The sergeant especially, and the Gárda also, are men of the highest character and the greatest probity; they are men whose reputations stand very high in the force. Their officers and superiors were perfectly satisfied that in that particular case they had not committed perjury. A District Justice, like anybody else, is fallible.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

Then the District Justice is wrong?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

In the opinion of the Gárda authorities he is.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

Then you do not take any notice of what your justices do?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Does the Deputy suggest that on every occasion the decision of a District Justice must be taken as absolutely conclusively right on questions of fact? If that were so, then we should never have appeals from his orders.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 79; Níl, 53.

Tá.

• Aird, William P.
• Alton, Ernest Henry.
• Anthony, Richard.
• Beckett, James Walter.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Blythe, Ernest.
• Bourke, Séamus A.
• Broderick, Henry.
• Brodrick, Seán.
• Byrne, Alfred.
• Byrne, John Joseph.
• Carey, Edmund.
• Clancy, Patrick.
• Coburn, James.
• Cole, John James.
• Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
• Colohan, Hugh.
• Conlon, Martin.
• Connolly, Michael. P.
• Cooper, Bryan Ricco.
• Corish, Richard.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Crowley, James.
• Daly, John.
• Davin, William.
• Davis, Michael.
• De Loughrey, Peter.
• Doherty, Eugene.
• Dolan, James N.
• Doyle, Peadar Seán.
• Duggan, Edmund John.
• Dwyer, James.
• Egan, Barry M.
• Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
• Fitzgerald, Desmond.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Good, John.
• Gorey, Denis J.
• Haslett, Alexander.
• Hassett, John J.
• Heffernan, Michael R.
• Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
• Hennessy, Thomas.
• Hennigan, John.
• Henry, Mark.
• Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
• Holohan, Richard.
• Jordan, Michael.
• Keogh, Myles.
• Law, Hugh Alexander.
• Lynch, Finian.
• Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, James E.
• Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
• Myles, James Sproule.
• Nally, Martin Michael.
• O'Connell, Richard.
• O'Connell, Thomas J.
• O'Connor, Bartholomew.
• O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
• O'Hanlon, John F.
• O'Leary, Daniel.
• O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
• O'Reilly, John J.
• O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Rice, Vincent.
• Roddy, Martin.
• Shaw, Patrick W.
• Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
• Thrift, William Edward.
• Tierney, Michael.
• Vaughan, Daniel.
• White, John.
• White, Vincent Joseph.

Níl.

• Allen, Denis.
• Blaney, Neal.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Carney, Frank.
• Carty, Frank.
• Clery, Michael.
• Colbert, James.
• Cooney, Eamon.
• Corkery, Dan.
• Corry, Martin John.
• Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Fahy, Frank.
• Flinn, Hugo.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• French, Seán.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Goulding, John.
• Hayes, Seán.
• Holt, Samuel.
• Jordan, Stephen.
• Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
• Kent, William R.
• Kerlin, Frank.
• Bourke, Daniel.
• Brady, Seán.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Buckley, Daniel.
• Killane, James Joseph.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick John.
• Maguire, Ben.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Mullins, Thomas.
• O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
• O'Kelly, Seán T.
• O'Leary, William.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• O'Reilly, Thomas.
• Powell, Thomas P.
• Ruttledge, Patrick J.
• Ryan, James.
• Sexton, Martin.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Francis C.

Tellers—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle. Níl: Deputies G. Boland and Allen.

Question declared carried.