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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Feb 1929

Vol. 28 No. 5

Public Business. - Railways—Vote 57.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £2,300 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1929, chun íocaíochtanna fé Acht na mBóthar Iarainn, 1924, fén Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act, 1883, etc.; agus chun crícheanna eile a bhaineann le hIompar in Eirinn.

That a sum not exceeding £2,500 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for payments under the Railways Act, 1924, the Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act, 1883, etc.; and for other purposes connected with Irish Transport.

This Supplementary Estimate is required in order to finish a transaction left to be finished under the Railways Act, 1924, that is to say, the absorption of what is called the colliery railways — Arigna, Wolfhill and Castlecomer. Under the Railways Act, 1924, it was provided that these three railways, which were constructed out of Government funds, were to be brought into the general scheme of absorption provided by that Act. The terms were to be agreed upon as between the Government and the Great Southern Railways Company, or, in default of agreement, the matter was to be brought before the Railway Tribunal. Terms have now been agreed upon, and the moneys are required to meet portion of the payments which are necessary under these terms. These railways are not and cannot ever have been regarded as economic concerns, and the particular circumstances surrounding them brought about most of the difficulties that were experienced in arranging suitable terms of settlement. It has to be remembered that under Section 8 of the Railways Act it was provided that where there was a transfer to the amalgamated company of property belonging to any absorbed company all the circumstances had to be taken into account, particularly the value of the absorbed concern, on a revenue-earning basis. The second thing to be looked to was the value of the new concern as a component part of the larger undertaking. As these were obviously the terms on which the Railway Tribunal would view the circumstances afterwards, they were also the two points which had to be adverted to when terms were being negotiated between the Department and the railway company. Under the circumstances, it is considered that a good bargain has been struck — a bargain that is fair and reasonable both to the Government and to the railway company.

The property will have to be leased under the State Lands Act, 1924, in accordance with a schedule, the particulars of which have been laid before the House. The leasing terms and the other terms agreed upon are: (1) Whatever lands and buildings constitute the three undertakings of the Castlecomer, Wolfhill and Arigna railways are to be leased to the company for the full term of 99 years at a nominal rent. (2) The Government agrees to settle all outstanding land claims and to indemnify the company against any liability in this connection. The estimate of outstanding liability is put down at about £1,000, the money for which is not being found on this Vote, but under the ordinary railway Vote which I present from year to year. (3) If at any time any part or the whole of the lines has to be closed and the material recovered is scrapped, the value of the material so recovered is to become the property of the railway company. (4) If the railways have to be abandoned, or any part of them, there is to be provision made for obviating any claim in respect of the non-maintenance of the railway fences and drains, and there is to be attention paid to certain drains. We have agreed to indemnify the company to the extent of one-half against such claims. That liability has been commuted by the company for a payment of £3,000, and it is really to meet that figure that this Estimate is required. The whole of it will not fall for payment at once. (5) The company, on the other side, are to abandon the restoration of the double line which was projected between Cherryville Junction and Athy, and in consideration of this they are to withdraw the contingent claims they have against the Government for payment of compensation in that connection. Again the sum was difficult to arrive at. There already has been an item litigated in another court which amounts to a sum of £4,000, and an estimate has been made of the compensation that might fall to be paid in a certain contingency, and the amount that is set down is £16,000. Both these items — the restoration of the line and the item arising out of contingent claims are being abandoned by the company in consideration of this.

These three lines were built out of Government funds, the cost of them, approximately, being — Arigna Line, £60,000; Wolfhill, £125,000; Castlecomer, £160,000. They have been worked by the railway company for the Government on the ordinary cost basis. That is to say they worked them and we met any deficiencies that might arise. There has not been, except in one small period, any profit. The experience in connection with these railways has been very disappointing. The lines were constructed for coal traffic, and that traffic absolutely failed to justify the construction of the railways. The Wolfhill pit has been closed for some time. The only use there has been made of the Wolfhill line since then is that a certain bank has been built at Ballylinan station for the loading of sugar beet in connection with the sugar beet factory, and a certain small traffic has developed on the line which runs about four miles from Athy. The rates for the traffic are at a very low level, and the receipts accruing to the Wolfhill railway have been very small, and in fact fall short of the cost of keeping open even that section of the line.

The Arigna coal carryings are also very small and fail to give any return on the line. The only coalcarrying which has originated on the Arigna line has been on a small section from Derrinavoggy junction, which is about one and a half miles from Arigna station. The traffic from the Arigna mining company's pit does not justify the expenditure of the large sum of money which was asked for at one time and which would have been necessary to put the line into proper working order. There could have been no receipts looked for from which there would be any return.

There is a fair volume of traffic on the Castlecomer railway, but even there the receipts have not been sufficient to meet the working expenses. The Arigna railway showed in the year of the British coal strike a profit of £67; otherwise it has been run at a loss since 1925. Wolfhill railway was run at a considerable loss. The Castlecomer railway in 1925 and 1926 had a net loss of about £2,000 in each year. The loss has since gone down a bit; it was roughly £700 in 1927, and it is likely to run to about £1,000 in 1928.

The other point that has to be adverted to is that when the railways were built first-class material was not to be had, and the railways were built from poor material. The sleepers particularly were very poor. The result is that if the lines are to be kept open for any length of time, the losses that have been incurred to date on the working will be very considerably increased, because there will be considerable maintenance required on the lines. It is considered, therefore, that in cutting the losses on these three lines and making the bargain that has been made, there has been what I can only describe as a fair bargain. There was no inclination to drive a desperately hard bargain with the railway company in their position, seeing that the baronially guaranteed lines had been already taken over. It is a settlement which is understood to be acceptable to the Railway Company. It is certainly acceptable on our side.

Deputies have had considerable difficulty in catching what the Minister was saying, and I should be glad if he would tell me if I assume correctly that the railway company are to take over these lands on a 99 years' lease, are to be paid a certain sum in respect of liabilities of the lines, and are to be free to close down the lines and sell the tracks and other material as scrap?

Plus one other condition. The Deputy mentioned four: there is a fifth. The Government is saved from a certain liability arising out of the Cherryville line— the section from Cherryville to Athy. I mention two items in that; the item that has been litigated elsewhere, amounting to £4,000, the responsibility for which has not yet been fixed, but it would pretty necessarily fall upon us. There is a further contingent liability of about £16,000. These two are being waived.

Will item (c) of Vote 57 of the yearly Estimate — special railway undertakings — disappear as a result of this?

I am not sure that the exact sum voted now meets the entire bill, but the entire bill is what I have stated.

I understand that in the present year some money may be required, but in future years that item will disappear?

Yes. The item required to make good the deficits in the working of the lines will disappear.

As no arrangement has been made, whether we approve of that or not depends upon our opinion as to its satisfactory nature or otherwise but unfortunately we found it difficult to hear what the Minister was saying. Even if we had, the time given for consideration of the matter is so short that it might be advisable to postpone the Estimate until we are able to read the statement he has made in the Official Report.

In view of such an important transaction I think the Minister might very well circulate a memorandum of the particulars.

What is the particular importance of the item?

I think that is evident.

We are cutting a loss of £2,000 or £3,000.

If the Deputy wants to hold that up well and good.

If we pass this Vote now it is the merest formality, not that we approve of it or understand it, because some of us did not hear one-third of what the Minister said.

I shall repeat what I have said already if necessary. Let the Deputy remember that he has every chance of getting at the agreement under the Estate Lands Act where all the terms are set out.

All the terms?

Not all that I have said but all the terms.

Would the Minister say if these are baronial lines or not?

There might be need of a megaphone on the Front Opposition Bench as well as anywhere else. We did not hear Deputy Moore on these benches; we heard the Minister plainer.

I hear Deputy Gorey much oftener than I want to.

I am quite sure you do.

These are not baronial lines.

No baronial guarantees in connection with any of them?

Would the Minister state, if it is in order for him to do so, how the negotiations stand with regard to the Dublin and Blessington line at present?

It is not on this Estimate.

It is not far away. There are lots of people waiting for some announcement.

It is so far away as to be out of order on this particular Estimate.

Is the Minister of opinion that the terms are more satisfactory for the State than would have been secured if the matter had been decided by the Railway Tribunal?

This is a very delicate situation. There is another body to have cognisance of, and that is the vast body of railway share-holders. I think there has been a fair bargain struck. I am not going to say, for the benefit of the railway shareholders, whether it is to their interest that it should have been brought before the Railway Tribunal.

Question put and agreed to.
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