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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 3 May 1929

Vol. 29 No. 12

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 10—Office of Public Works.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £68,700 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig na nOibreacha Puiblí. (1 agus 2 Will. 4, c 33, a. 5 agus 6; 5 agus 6 Vict., c. 89, a. 1 agus 2; 9 agus 10 Vict., c. 86, a. 2, 7 agus 9; 10 Vict., c. 32, a. 3; 33 agus 34 Vict., c. 46, a. 42; 40 agus 41 Vict., c. 27; 44 agus 45 Vict., c. 49, a. 31, etc.).

That a sum not exceeding £68,700 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works. (1 and 2 Will. 4, c. 33, ss. 5 and 6; 5 and 6 Vict., c. 89, ss. 1 and 2; 9 and 10 Vict., c. 86, ss. 2, 7 and 9; 10 Vict., c. 32, s. 3; 33 and 34 Vict., c. 46, s. 42; 40 and 41 Vict., c. 27; 44 and 45 Vict., c. 49, s. 31, etc.).

It has become the custom in recent years to have a discussion on Votes 10 and 11 together under Vote 10. Vote 11 deals with the functions of the Office of Public Works and Vote 10 deals with the Staff. It is difficult in the debate sometimes to separate the two. Accordingly, Deputies have been in the habit of dealing with the two Votes together. With the leave of the House I propose to make a statement on the two Votes under Vote 10.

The salient points to be noticed on this Vote are the reductions on sub-head A, Salaries, and sub-head E, Land Loans Service. The reductions on Sub-head A are partly in consequence of the reduction in the programme on new works reflected in Vote 11, the Vote for Public Works and Buildings. The first reduction noticeable in sub-head A of this Vote is not due to the reduction of programme; it is due to there being now only two Commissioners of Public Works instead of three. The late Mr. Commissioner Healy was retained in the service after the usual age for retirement, partly in order to strengthen the Board during the period of special pressure, which is now drawing to an end, and partly in order that the Government might be able to make use of his great experience and sagacity in special service on commissions and committees of inquiry. Unfortunately, he was incapacitated by a serious illness which carried him off last June—a great loss to the Government service. It has been decided not to fill the vacancy.

The second main item of reduction under sub-head A is reduction of the temporary architectural staff, which will be carried out in the course of the year; three assistant architects, five architectural assistants, one assistant to the furniture clerk, and two draughtsmen. This corresponds to the reduction which is taking place in the new works programme under Vote 11. The works of reconstruction are coming to an end.

The third main item of reduction under sub-head A of this Vote is in the staff of senior temporary engineers for arterial drainage. This is a reduction of establishment only, not of effectives; in fact the full numbers provided for in the Estimates have never been obtained. It was not found necessary to use so many senior engineers. The arterial drainage service having now got into a steady and fairly calculable course of routine, the requirements can be foreseen with more accuracy, and we budget only for the number of posts which are proved to be required.

As to sub-head E, Land Loans Service, the reduction here is due to a change of policy. The Government has decided to restrict the special advantages of these land improvement loans to small farmers, whose holdings have less than £20 valuation. It is held that larger farmers will be able to get all the credit facilities they need from the Agricultural Credit Corporation, and will not require the special care and fatherly treatment which they get from our inspectors under the Board of Works loans, and which, incidentally, costs the Government a good deal. The full reduction in staff and expenses consequent on this change will not come into force for some months, because when the decision was announced to apply to cases after the first of this month, there was a rush of applications which will take some months to deal with. The reduction in staff will take place during the autumn, and next year's Estimates will show a further diminution of charge for this service.

The only other point I think I need notice is under sub-head F, Appropriations-in-Aid, where there is a considerable increase on the item for recovery of salaries and expenses of engineering staff. This staff is partly for the Barrow Drainage and partly for the other arterial drainage schemes, and the reason of the increase in the sums recoverable is in the case of the Barrow Drainage that the money became recoverable only after the Barrow Drainage Act was passed, and in the case of the other arterial drainage schemes it is that they are only now beginning to come into operation, and therefore the services of the engineers begin to be chargeable to those schemes.

Dealing now with Vote 11, the most noticeable point about this Vote is its reduction as compared with last year. The gross Vote is £734,556 compared with £1,029,490, a reduction of £284,934. The net Vote is £581,881 compared with £820,470, a reduction of £238,589. It will be observed that the greater part of this reduction is on sub-head B, New Works, viz., £208,110. There are three separate reasons for this reduction. First, more conservative estimating of expenditure. We have been attacked in the past by certain Deputies for being too sanguine in our estimates of what we could spend, and there is no doubt that there was some justification for the attack. We were partly pushed by other Departments who, being anxious to get their buildings completed, urged that full provision should be made for them, and partly we were ourselves too sanguine about the practicability of getting forward with works at a rapid pace. We have cut down our expectations and reduced the Estimate. The second reason is a reduction in the number of special works of reconstruction which are being carried out. The period of reconstruction is coming to an end, though considerable expenditure will still be necessary for some years to come. The third reason is a deliberate cutting down or postponing of works for the sake of economy. All these three causes operate in reducing the total amount of the sub-head.

I will run through a few of the principal items of new works and give explanations where necessary. The scheme for improved accommodation for members of the Oireachtas is proceeding. The new restaurant, as members are aware, is in operation, and we hope to provide a smoke-room and some little further accommodation in the course of the present year. The Dublin Custom House is very nearly finished, and the money provided for this year is almost entirely for retentions on contracts. The new Income Tax Offices, Nos. 14 and 15 Upper O'Connell Street, are to be pressed on. The steel framing is complete, and the building work proper will shortly be begun. Very useful offices and large storage space will be provided for the Stationery Office at Beggar's Bush Barracks. This is a very necessary work, as the Stationery Office is cramped in its accommodation in its present house (Oriel House, in Westland Row), and economies can be made by the provision of proper space. Oriel House will become available for some other purpose. The great work of reconstruction at the Four Courts is proceeding, and it is hoped that less than two years from the present date will see it completed. The Record Office Treasury is a very necessary work, which will take two years to complete. It provides storage space for rapidly accumulating documents in place of that which was destroyed when the Four Courts were blown up. The provision for Gárda Síochána Barracks is reduced this year to £34,000 as against £91,000 last year. This is a deliberate cutting down and postponement of works for the sake of economy. The provision made in this year covers only (a) the completion of works which had already begun, and (b) five thousand pounds for specially urgent cases of new barracks where the present accommodation is exceptionally bad.

The provision for National School grants is £75,000 as against £100,000 last year. This again is a deliberate reduction and slowing off in the programme of re-housing National Schools, though it is a reduction only to the standard of 1927-28. On the other hand, we propose to proceed as fast as we can with the Preparatory Colleges on which work has been started, that being a matter of special urgency. In the case of the Dublin G.P.O., three out of the four great blocks of buildings are nearly finished. A small provision only for finishing work is made in the Estimates. The fourth, or Prince's Street Block, is only just commenced and will take two or three years to complete. In accordance with the reduction of the Defence Forces, the military building works in our Estimates are small, with the exception of Baldonnel, where a considerable expenditure is necessary to replace the present very unsatisfactory accommodation for officers and men of the Air Force.

In the Phoenix Park the item of £5,500 for improvement to roads, etc., is expenditure in connection with the International Motor Races to be held on the 12th and 13th July. It was necessary to remove the Phoenix Monument from its present position so as to leave a clear run on the straight road, and also to make certain improvements in the roads themselves, particularly at turnings. The greater part of the expenditure required for preparing the ground and carrying out the races will be borne by the Automobile Club, but the Government has thought it right to make what is practically a subvention to the races to the extent shown in the Estimates.

Harbour improvements show expenditure on four schemes where the Government is making grants. Those at Burtonport and Dingle are to be finished in the course of this year. Those at Buncrana and Rathmullan are to be commenced provided local contributions are forthcoming. These two are schemes of improvement to harbours for fishery purposes. A small item, the new motor launch for Dun Laoghaire Harbour, will represent an economy in the working of the harbour. The present harbour launch is worked by steam.

In the course of last year's debate the point was raised that it would mean a considerable economy if there were greater concentration of Government staff in public buildings, and I shall make a brief statement of our policy with regard to that.

The point has been raised that Government Departments are housed in a scattered manner in houses in all parts of the city and that this is wasteful. The statement is perfectly correct; this state of things was a necessary consequence of the change of Government, which involved new Government offices and altering some of the old ones; but it was made far worse by the destruction of the General Post Office, the Four Courts, and the Custom House. The Government is applying the only remedy by reconstructing these buildings. This reconstruction is not yet complete; when it is, there will be a very considerable concentration. It is not an economic measure so far as building expenses are concerned, because it is more expensive to erect new buildings than to maintain and pay rent for old ones; but it will prove economic by the increased efficiency of the Government departments, due to concentration.

The completion of the Custom House has already enabled us to give up or dispose of the following houses:—Three in Beresford Place (and a stack or section of the Dock Stores), four in Merrion Square, five in Upper Mount Street, two in Pearse Street, and one in Lower Baggot Street, besides Charlemont House in Parnell Square. Of these houses eight have been surrendered to the landlords; two have been let by us, apart from Charlemont House, which is being let to the Dublin City Commissioners for a Municipal Picture Gallery, and two have been occupied by the Patents Office, a newly-established office. There is one on our hands (41 Merrion Square) which will probably be let to the Electricity Supply Board. The Government has also by a special measure undertaken to build a central income tax office in Upper O'Connell Street (Nos. 14 and 15) which, when finished, will enable the income tax inspectors to give up ten separate offices in five houses.

Under sub-head B there are certain items appearing for the first time, namely, fishery harbours, dredging operations, £1,000; minor works of economic development, £2,500; rural industrial classes under the Department of Fisheries, £2,000; total, £5,500. This was previously provided for under Vote 54.

There is a misprint on page 45 of the estimate in connection with Colaiste Caoimhin. Marlboro' Hall, Glasnevin—Further Adaptations and Additions. The particulars of the work have become separated from the name of the building. The further works contemplated comprise new recreation rooms, gymnasium, manual instruction room, a drawing practice room, extra bath rooms, etc., at a total cost of £8,910. It is proposed to carry out about half of that at an estimated cost of £4,000 in 1929-30, leaving the remainder over until the following year.

We now come to sub-head J— Arterial Drainage. With regard to the Drainage Maintenance Act, it is not necessary to say very much, as no great expenditure is expected. A good deal of work has already been done under this Act, and some is still being done, but it is not expected that many more cases will arise in the near future.

Coming to sub-head J2—Arterial Drainage Act, 1925—the initial period of examination and investigation only, with no works on the ground to show, is now at an end. Two considerable schemes—Akeragh Lough in Co. Kerry, and Awbeg River in Co. Cork—are actually in course of construction, with three smaller schemes—Carrowreagh in Co. Roscommon, Clonlisk in Co. Offaly, and Hurley River in Co. Meath. These smaller schemes are not separately shown in the estimates because the grant for them will be less than £3,000 apiece. It is likely that half a dozen more schemes may get into work in the course of the summer, and from this time on there should be a steady flow of work. The estimate of £22,000 includes £12,000 for these schemes, which can be made economic by a free grant not exceeding £3,000 in any one case, in addition to £1,500, £7,500 and £2,587 for the Akeragh Lough, Awbeg and Cush schemes respectively.

The work on the two first mentioned schemes was commenced during the year 1928, and it is practically certain that operations on the Cush will start during the next few months. For any other schemes requiring a larger grant than £3,000 a Supplementary Estimate has to be introduced in order that they may be brought singly and particularly before the Dáil. The sums inserted in the estimates are those parts of the total free grants which it is expected will be paid during the financial year. The total free grant for Akeragh Lough scheme is estimated at £4,250, and for the Awbeg at £16,000, fifty per cent. of the total estimated cost in each case. The Kerry County Council has agreed to give a free grant of twenty per cent. in the Akeragh Lough case, estimated at £1,700, and the Cork Co. Council has, in the Awbeg case, agreed to contribute the amount in excess of fifty per cent. required to make the scheme economic to the occupiers of the affected lands, estimated at £11,130, or about 35 per cent. of the estimated cost. The total free grants in the Akeragh Lough case are therefore 70 per cent, and in the Awbeg case about 85 per cent., these being the amounts estimated to be required in order to make the schemes economic for the occupiers of improved land. The Cush scheme was estimated to cost £6,100, fifty per cent. of which, or £3,050, will be contributed by the Government, and 44½ per cent. by the County Councils of Leix and Offaly and the Tullamore Urban District Council. Following the investigation of objections received from occupiers to the scheme, certain minor amendments were found necessary, which resulted in the estimated cost being increased to £6,200. The Leix County Council and the Tullamore Urban District Council have agreed to contribute their share of the extra amounts required to make the scheme economic to the occupiers, and we are at present in communication with the Offaly Co. Council on the subject. As soon as a favourable reply has been received the scheme will be sent forward to the Minister for Finance for confirmation.

I might give briefly the position as regards the Arterial Drainage Act, 1925. We have received 578 petitions. Out of these, 529 have been recommended; 452 have been inspected, and, after being inspected, were amalgamated into 375 schemes. Of these 375, 214 have been valued. They again have been amalgamated into 141 schemes. Of these, 58 have been submitted to the Department of Finance, and 19 have been submitted to the county councils. Of the 58 schemes submitted to the Department of Finance, grants have been required from the county council in the case of 49. No grants have been required in the case of 9 from the county council; 32 of the schemes that required a grant from the county council have been agreed upon by the county council; and of these 32, plus the 9 where no grants were required, 12 schemes are in preparation, and in 29 cases the schemes are being prepared. In 20 out of the 29 schemes, the people interested, and whose lands it is expected will benefit, have voted in favour, and out of these 20, inquiries have been held in 14 cases, and 6 of these cases have been confirmed and work, as I say, has begun in 5.

Dealing with the Barrow scheme, it will be noticed that only £20,000 has been taken into the Estimate this year because it is anticipated that the remaining expenses for the year will be defrayed from loan advances and not by free grant. The total expenditure for the year is estimated at £65,000. The work is going forward very well at the present time, the weather conditions being exceptionally favourable for this time of the year. During the year the main work has consisted in the steady concentration on the excavation from the river bed on the critical points lying between Athy and Monasterevan. As mentioned in previous reports, there are two main obstructions in this fifteen-mile stretch, namely, the rock shoals at Bert, about three miles above Athy, and the rock shoal at Monasterevan, with their adjacent prolongations in softer material. Work of excavation is now far advanced upon the rock shoal at Bert and has been well started at Monasterevan.

During the year the rock excavated and removed at these two points has amounted to 25,200 cubic yards, of a total estimated quantity of 31,000 cubic yards. In addition the work on the soft excavation has been steadily pressed on by the aid of the excavating plant between Athy and Bert, and from about three miles below Monasterevan upwards into the town, where the main obstructions existed. Altogether a total of 176,500 cubic yards of soft material has been excavated from the bed during the year at these points, making a total of 317,000 cubic yards of soft excavation to date, out of a total estimated volume of 1,260,000 cubic yards in the Athy-Monasterevan (Figile River Junction) reach.

On this critical Athy-Monasterevan reach, which forms the key to the Barrow Drainage, about 25 per cent. of the soft excavation is complete, and about 80 per cent. of the rock. About half the soft excavation, especially in the four miles above Athy, has been in very difficult material, consisting of dense glacial detritus, blue clay and boulders, a material which tested the power of the excavating plant to its utmost. It can be taken that the worst of this material has now been cut through.

During the year the county road bridges crossing the Barrow at Bert, Monasterevan, and Baylough, on the Upper Barrow above Monasterevan, have all been underpinned and their foundations carried well below the bed-level of the scheme and otherwise protected and secured. During the year the work of preliminary clearing, and unwatering, has been carried out along the Upper Barrow from Monasterevan for about seventeen and a half miles up to Borness Bridge, near Mountmellick. For several miles of this length the river was badly blocked by fallen trees and dense overhanging growth, which has now been cleared away in preparation for the main scheme excavation. This preliminary clearing has already produced a marked improvement in the flood conditions which formerly prevailed in the district.

Steady progress has been made during the year with the clearing and removal of obstruction from the lower river along the fifteen mile reach between Athy and Milford, about five miles below Carlow, many parts of the river in this length being badly obstructed by felled trees, overhanging growth, etc. The work of deepening the Ardreigh Canal at Athy is in hands, and substantial progress has been made.

The total expenditure upon the work, up to the 31st March, 1929, has been £158,538 19s. 11d. or roughly about 37 per cent. of the total estimate of £425,000. While it would not be correct to state at this stage that 37 per cent. of the total work has been done, it may be pointed out that in works of this kind the ratio between the expenditure and the executed work is seldom direct. The following points have to be taken into consideration in estimating the true relationship. There is now available, and paid for, practically the whole of the plant required, namely, a fleet of ten excavators available as against an average of four only for the last two-and-a-half years. In addition, the works are provided with sufficient pumping and air-compressing plant, workshops and stores for the efficient maintenance of the plant, and further the back of the most difficult part of the work has been broken in the excavation along the Athy-Monasterevan reach. Three of the most important mills interfered with in the course of the work have been purchased, and there is no reason to suppose that future purchases or compensations will be heavy.

Granted average weather conditions the output and rate of progress from now should be substantially increased. Much benefit, it is generally admitted in the country, has resulted from the execution of the works even to their present state of progress, and this effort seems to have stimulated a desire on the part of those interested to press for independent subsidiary or ancillary drainage schemes on the upper reaches of the main river and its tributaries which lie outside the scope of the main scheme. It should be borne in mind that the Barrow Drainage is an arterial drainage which can do no more than provide an efficient outlet to districts hitherto unprovided with such, and to a large extent its success will depend upon whether that outlet is taken advantage of or not. The scope of the Barrow Drainage does not include any provision for secondary or land drainage schemes of this kind which more properly should follow on the execution of the main arterial drainage scheme than be executed simultaneously with it. These remarks seem relevant in view of the fact that it is known that several minor schemes of this kind are under consideration and that their immediate execution may be strongly pressed for.

The decrease of £56,345 in sub-head L — Appropriations - in - Aid, 1929-30—is mainly attributable to a reduction of £58,000 in the contribution expected from the Property Losses Compensation Vote owing to the curtailment of the programme of reconstruction of maliciously-destroyed property.

I do not often have to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary in dealing with matters in this House, but I think we can say that, as compared with the manner in which some of his senior colleagues in the Ministry approach this House, he is to be congratulated upon his general attitude in introducing the Vote. He has given us with regard to this very important service a good deal of detail, and we on the Opposition Benches appreciate that. We feel that it is due to the House, and we hope that other members of the Government, who may have to introduce subsequent estimates, will be as informative. I regret, however, that I am unable to follow the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary, that so far as Vote 10 was concerned there was going to be a considerable reduction in salaries under sub-head A, because I find that, though the amount of the estimate for salaries this year is £98,480, the actual expenditure on salaries in the year 1927-8 was only £98,009, and if the estimates of the Department are to be fulfilled, it would look as if, instead of their being an actual decrease in salaries, there is going to be an increase in payments under this sub-head this year. Last year we had occasion to criticise the cost of the architectural branch of this Department. This year we find that the salaries debited against this branch amount to £19,848, as against £20,870 last year, and it would appear that there was going to be a serious attempt made to secure economy in that particular branch. Again I refer to the Appropriation Accounts for the year 1927-8.

Sub-head A, unfortunately, is not analysed in these Appropriation Accounts. But we find that the actual expenditure in 1927-28 was less for wages and salaries than is now estimated for 1929-30. Accordingly, basing my case upon that, I think we are entitled to say that the economies which the Parliamentary Secretary wishes this House to believe he is endeavouring to secure will be more imaginary than real. If you turn to page 35 of the Estimates and go down there and take the numbers that it is proposed to maintain in employment in 1929-30 as compared with last year, you will find that there is very little difference. For instance, we have still one principal architect, four architects, nineteen assistant architects, and eight assistant architects temporarily employed as compared with the assistant architects last year. I know that the Parliamentary Secretary is going to draw my attention to the note which says that provision for three of these officers is made for portion of the year only, so that by the temporary architects with which the Parliamentary Secretary is dispensing, he hopes to secure economies. Of the eight temporary architects five are to be employed for the full year and three part-time only.

I would like to remind the House about our criticism last year. I produced figures and documentary evidence to show that there was considerable private practice by a considerable number of officers in this Department. So that the situation came down to this, that men who were supposed to give full time service to the State were giving part time service only. The documentary evidence which I produced to the House on that occasion is still in my possession. I am still willing to submit to any independent member the documents upon which I based my case. Then I would ask any independent member to consider this: if it can be shown that one permanent official of this Department carried on work for no less than six private clients, the total cost of such work amounting to £29,000 constructional work. could that architect have given full time service to the Department at the same time as he gave satisfactory service to his private clients? The proof that his services to his clients were satisfactory is the fact that his private practice was so extensive. He was recommended from Tom to Dick, and from Dick to Harry. And Tom and Dick and Harry did not recommend him unless he gave satisfaction. If any one architect carries out £29,000 worth of constructional work to satisfy Dick, and work to satisfy Tom, where did he find the time to give the service to this Department that the fact that he is a full time officer of this State requires of him?

I would like again to call your attention to the fact that a reduction and a proposed saving are to be made on the temporary officials employed. But this work was not being done by temporary officials or by architects who were temporarily employed by the Office of Public Works. This work was being done by architects who were permanent employees of that Department. The point I want to put to the Parliamentary Secretary now is this: has that practice been discontinued or does it still exist? I think we are entitled to have a clear and candid statement from the Parliamentary Secretary and from the Government as a whole in regard to that. Do the architects in the employment of public works still carry on private practice, or have they been forbidden to do such work? If they are still carrying it on, how does the Department propose to deal with them?

I would like to remind you that the Parliamentary Secretary last year admitted that this practice existed. I will quote from volume 26 column 1326 of the Debates in which he said: "The custom in the Board of Works of our architects doing work for private individuals and not confining themselves absolutely to the work of the Department has been handed down to us from the time when the British were here." Because it is a British precedent, a British tradition, the Parliamentary Secretary there in that statement tells the House that he is prepared to accept and honour it. Is that one of the fruits of the Treaty, is that one of the results of the labours of this House?

Is this House going to see that British tradition and British precedent shall no longer prevail here? Here we have the Parliamentary Secretary coming to this House and saying that because a certain practice has been handed down to him from the time when the British were here, he is not in the position to put his foot down and to say "this thing shall not go on any longer because it is not fair to the taxpayer on the one hand, nor to the State on the other." We are entitled, before the House votes upon this Estimate, to have an explicit statement from the Parliamentary Secretary under this head whether this practice is still going on and whether he has issued definite instructions that it shall be discontinued. We are entitled to know whether that instruction has been observed by the officials of his Department. Supposing that instruction has been given, supposing it has been observed what position is then created?

The position then is this that a number of people formerly giving part time service are now giving their whole time service to their official duties, some of which were previously discharged by their colleagues in their part time also. So that where formerly we had a number of men doing the total work of this Department in their part time, we now have the same number of men who are compelled to give their whole time to the service of that Department. I go further then and say that if you have now the same number of men as formerly compelled to give their whole time to the service of that Department, and if that has become definitely the rule of the Department, then some of the former part-time officials have necessarily become redundant.

Because A who used to devote four or five hours per day to the service of the Department and B, who used to devote five hours per day to the service of the Department and the other three hours to private practice, are now in this position that whereas there was previously ten hours' work to be done, one of them can do four-fifths of that work in eight hours, and the other will only have work to employ him for two hours. If you take into consideration C who like A and B gave five hours of his time to the service of the Department and three to the requirements of his private practice, you have this position that now B is able to do the work which C did during those five hours and he is going to have another hour over and above to tackle the work of D. So that C immediately becomes redundant and an unnecessary official. But if the Government is really sincere in striving to secure economies which the Minister for Finance talked about in this House they would——

Has the Deputy proof that these civil servants, during the time they were paid for doing their work in the Board of Works, actually in the Board of Works offices did this private work, or did they do it when they were finished their duties in the Board of Works?

I will put it this way: I have proof that one official carried out work for six separate clients, the cost of which was £29,000.

Mr. Byrne

In the building trade?

As the work in the building trade is done between the hours of 8.30 a.m. and 5 p.m., and as that has got to be supervised during working hours when the actual work of building is going on——

Mr. Byrne

Not necessarily.

I wonder how many people would employ an architect who never visited the job when the work was being done?

Deputy Byrne would not.

As the construction work is being carried out between the hours of 8.30 and 5, how could the official in the Board of Works, nominally supposed to be in attendance from 9 a.m. to 5 or 5.30, possibly supervise satisfactorily for his client the commission which had been entrusted to him?

Mr. Byrne

What about the clerk of works?

All right. I have had some experience indirectly of building contracts. I have often worked in association with architects and I never knew one of them who would conscientiously do his work who did not make a point of visiting the job when the work was actually being carried out, and when the men were there. He was there to see how the aggregate for the concrete was being mixed, how the mortar was being made, and what timber was going to positions where afterwards the work would be covered up. In not one of these jobs do I believe a clerk of works was employed. If a clerk of works was not employed, then this private official of the Board of Works, if he were conscientiously doing his duty to the State and giving his whole-time service to the State, was not conscientiously giving his attention to the private client from whom he accepted a commission. Is that the standard of public morality that would be set up by Deputy Byrne— an official of the State taking money from a private citizen and not rendering conscientious service for it? Is the Deputy prepared to condone a swindle of that sort? Is he prepared to condone dishonest conduct of that sort in order that he might defend this practice of the Board of Works? Is the Parliamentary Secretary prepared to defend it, and is he prepared to say here: "We do not mind these men taking two-and-a-half or five per cent. from private clients; we do not mind it a bit. They are doing their job for us, and if they are not able to give an honest and conscientious return for taking that two-and-a-half or five per cent. that is not our business." I hope whatever levels this Dáil will sink to it will never sink to the level of condoning what is dishonest or questionable conduct on the part of a whole-time servant of the State.

I think I have established the case to the satisfaction of any intelligent man that if some of these officers are now giving whole-time service, some others of them, by reason of the fact that their colleagues are giving whole-time service have now become redundant and unnecessary. If that is the case, if some have become redundant and unnecessary, in view of the fact that the Minister for Finance, as he admitted this year, has been put to the pin of his collar, as we say, to make the Budget balance, what justification is there for retain ing these redundant and unnecessary officers in the employment of the State? There can be only one justification, and that is that the volume of work to be carried out under Vote 11 this year as compared with the volume of work carried out under that Vote last year, or in the year 1927-28, has considerably increased. Is there any other justification for it than that? We know that so far from the volume of work carried out under Vote 11 showing any tendency to increase year by year, there has been on the other hand an actual decrease in the volume of work carried out under the Vote. You can have confirmation of that if you consider, in relation to each other, the estimate under sub-head (B) of Vote 11 for Public Works and Buildings last year and this year, and the Appropriation Accounts for 1927-28. To get back to the earliest amount, in 1927-28 the actual amount of the grant for new works, alterations and additions was £563,000. The actual amount expended under that sub-head was £478,000. In 1928-29 the amount of the grant was £567,000, and then for the year 1929-30 the Board of Works do not anticipate— and they set their anticipations at a very high figure—that the total cost of all the work to be carried out by them will amount to more than £358,000.

That is the position—a continuous decline in the volume of work carried out by this Department for the past few years, a decline which is likely to continue, and a decline which has resulted in one fact, that under Vote 11 this Department will be responsible for the disbursement of wages to a much less amount in the year 1929-30 than in the year 1928-29 or the preceding year, 1927-28. We find, and it is typical of the whole Governmental attitude towards the people of this country, that while they propose to curtail their building programme and therefore reduce the amount expended in wages, there is not commensurate reduction in the amount of salaries which they propose to pay. If last year an architectural staff which cost £20,870 had to be responsible for work amounting to £567,000, and if in the year 1927-28 it actually was responsible for work costing £478,000, surely a very much smaller staff would be able to deal with a volume of work which has been reduced by almost 40 per cent.

If it were the case of an ordinary architect, the ordinary architectural fees on work involving an expenditure of £478,000, which was the actual expenditure in 1927-28, at 5 per cent. would not amount to more than £23,000, and if the Board of Works took the whole of this £358,000 of work to a private architect's office in town and said to that architect: "What will you do that for?" he would not quote 4 per cent. on it. He would quote something like 2½ per cent. or 3 per cent. or he would say, "I will do the whole thing for £10,000," and it would be done satisfactorily for that figure. If that is the situation; if, as I have shown, when you reduce the volume of work the cost of your architectural services should be proportionately reduced, surely there ought to be a very much bigger reduction in Vote 10 in regard to the salaries and allowances under sub-head A. Particularly, there ought to be a very much bigger reduction in the size of the architectural staff.

In view of what I have said, I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to answer this question: Is the reason why the cost of the service of this branch remains practically as it was before due to the fact that the old practice still exists, and that he is prepared to honour and is still honouring the custom which has been handed down to us from the time the British were here? I put that up to the Parliamentary Secretary, and I say that unless he comes to this House and shows some actual reduction in that architectural staff we are entitled to hold that the old practice still continues, that the Parliamentary Secretary connives at it, that the Government connives at it, and that the Minister for Finance, who is responsible for this Vote, connives at it. If they do connive at it what becomes of all this boasted programme of economy? What becomes of all the savings they were making in order that the burden on the taxpayer might be lessened? If they do connive at it, is this House prepared to connive at what I say is essentially an improper practice? This thing must be discontinued, and I ask Deputies as honest men, men who feel that one man should have only one job, and that so long as he is a servant of the State he ought to give his whole time to that service, to say that unless the Parliamentary Secretary gives a guarantee that this practice will be ended once and for all they will not accept this Estimate.

Mr. Byrne

I had no intention whatever of taking part in this debate until I heard the comedy that Deputy MacEntee put before the House, which would remind one of Shakespeare's play, "Much Ado About Nothing." We had a wonderful picture painted for us about the state of corruption in the Board of Works at present simply because a well-recognised practice, as far as the architects' profession is concerned, was in existence before we took over.

Might I interrupt the Deputy for one moment? I understand that the Deputy wishes to imply to this House that this is a well-recognised practice. I put this to him: Has not the professional association—the Royal Institute of Architects in Ireland—already protested against the continuance of this practice in the Department of Public Works?

Mr. Byrne

I think we have the explanation of the whole case now. Possibly Deputy MacEntee has been approached by this particular association and that it has laid certain facts before him, and that he has come into the House to wage war and to exterminate because of the mere fact that a man may be——

Is this practice carried out in any other country?

Mr. Byrne

Of course it is.

He will tell the Deputy all about it in his speech.

Mr. Byrne

I know it to be a common practice in England for similar architects to do small jobs when their day's work is done.

Small jobs!

Mr. Byrne

It is a well-known practice in the architectural world, and the other architects are objecting to this practice because they are losing fees.

Can I ask the Deputy

Let the Deputy make his own speech.

Mr. Byrne

I always like Deputy Corry to get a chance.

I will give you chance enough.

Mr. Byrne

He is very illuminating in what he has to say, and we generally get very useful information from him. I was further struck by Deputy MacEntee when he went on to point out to us what an architect's duties were. I have for many years been engaged on work in connection with the architectural profession—I will not call it a trade, because its members would be very highly offended if I used that word—and I have some knowledge of what an architect's duties are. Deputy MacEntee has suggested that some of his duties are to supervise the mixing of the mortar and the cement——

Mr. Byrne

——an examination of the timber, and, in a word, to veto, if necessary, anything unsuitable that might be going into the construction of any edifice with which he is associated and for which he may have drawn the plans. I would like to disabuse Deputy MacEntee's mind. No such practice exists. The man who has the duty of supervising the mixing of mortar and cement and the passing of materials is a man called a clerk of works, and Deputy MacEntee knows that as well as I do.

And he does not need any supervision?

Mr. Byrne

Deputy MacEntee got out of that by saying that perhaps there was no clerk of works on these particular jobs on which this £29,000 was spent, that the work was performed by some architect connected with the Board of Works. What is £29,000? It might mean a half-dozen jobs. It is impossible for an architect to perform properly the duties of his Department and at the same time carry out these few jobs in his spare time? Surely the whole thing is a mare's nest. There is nothing in it. We need to have a little bit of commonsense. We should consider the working of a great Department like the Board of Works in a reasonable, fair and commonsense manner, not with that distorted line of vision that Deputy MacEntee appeared to have when he attacked this Vote. I think Deputy MacEntee's whole case fell to the ground when he told the House that the Architectural Association of Ireland objected to the practice that is carried out under the Board of Works. Were they not themselves losing by it? I think I should not go so far as to say that I would apply this maxim to the Board of Works, because I think it would be a tremendously hard thing to apply to a profession, and that is that simply because a professional man was engaged in a certain regular occupation in a public Department he should not be allowed to add to his income by taking in spare-time work which he had ample time to perform without interfering with his regular duties. The Deputy suggested that the whole thing was dishonest and a swindle, but I do not think it calls for any reasonable criticism from these benches. I do not think that any detriment has been suffered by the Department concerned. I do not think that the taxpayers will lose any money by the practice. If Deputy MacEntee is of the opinion that an architect should stand over a job, supervise the mixing of the mortar and the cement, veto the timber and examine the steel girders that go into the work for five per cent. he never made a greater mistake in his life.

As a rule an architect has three methods of procedure. He draws plans, gets out specifications and prepares bills of quantities. These things are part and parcel of the contract, whatever may be contained in the specification, and whatever materials may be used. All these things have to be used in the carrying out of the job. At a later stage, when the work has proceeded some distance an architect has very often to give a certificate, so that the builder may draw a certain amount of money to enable him to proceed with the work. He sees the clerk of works, surveys the work, examines it himself, and then either grants or withholds a certificate. He does not stay on the job, I can assure the Deputy, from 10 in the morning until 5 in the evening, nor has he any intention of doing so. Of course according to Deputy MacEntee the duties of an architect are very onerous, but my experience is that they are exceedingly light. When the work is finished he is in a position to withhold the final payment unless he is satisfied that it has been satisfactorily carried out. I can assure Deputy MacEntee that when an architect goes on a job to examine the structure it does not take him long to make up his mind as to whether the work is satisfactory work or jerrywork, or whether the builder is entitled to a certificate or not.

There was only one point made by Deputy MacEntee with which I would be in agreement, and if he had pinned himself to that point he would have had my sympathy. The Deputy said that there should be one man for one job. There is really something in that. If architects in the Board of Works are getting fair remuneration I do not think that the volume of work in this country is so great that they ought endeavour to grab other jobs outside in their spare time. I would agree that that would be fair and reasonable criticism, but to tell us that the architect has to supervise the mixing of mortar and cement is sheer waste of time, and pure nonsense. I feel that as far as this Estimate is concerned the taxpayers have lost nothing, and that the corruption to which Deputy MacEntee referred does not exist.

I do not pretend to the encyclopaedic knowledge that Deputy Byrne has, as I had no time to look up an encyclopaedia before I came into the House. There is one aspect of the case I would put to him and it is this: If an architect employed by the Board of Works does business outside to the value of £29,000 and gets architect's fees at 5 per cent., he makes £1,450 outside the office. Inside the office, if he is a full time architect, I think he gets £690 or, if he is an assistant about £600. Which work does Deputy Byrne think gets most attention—the work in the office for which he gets £600 or £700, or the private work outside for which he gets £1,450, without the necessity of having an office or a staff?

Mr. Byrne

I will answer Deputy Fahy in one minute if he will permit me. The supervision given to the work under the Board of Works will be more strict and more vigilant than the supervision given to the drawing of plans for outside work. That is pure common sense. I can tell the Deputy that the amount of time spent on one job in the Board of Works might exceed all the time spent on possibly half a dozen jobs, involving the £29,000, to which the Deputy referred.

Quite right. Therefore Deputy Byrne would stand over a man not doing honest work outside on work that would require supervision.

Mr. Byrne

That is a different point.

I put it this way: the work inside has to be supervised and properly done, but he can do what he likes with outside work. In addition, the Deputy considers that work involving £29,000 is a very small amount of work. Let us calculate. There are 32 architects in the Board of Works dealing with work involving a half million of money. That will work out at £15,000 per man and, if you add the 15 clerks of works to whom Deputy Byrne referred, each would be dealing with £10,000 worth of work.

Mr. Byrne

How much of that work would be repairs? That would put a different complexion on it altogether.

If Deputy Byrne wants to argue the matter on a platform we will have to go outside and not decide it here. These are some aspects that I put to the Deputy. It may be the custom in other countries to do this. I do not deny it; neither do I assert it. But I say that the economic circumstances here are not such that we can-apart from the morality of it allow a man to have two jobs, to carry on his profession under the Government, paid by the taxpayers, and also to carry on private work outside. I do not think it is right. I have three questions to ask the Parliamentary Secretary. The first is, what progress has been made with the scheme which we comprehensively call the Corrib drainage scheme? We were told in replies to questions put in this House on two or three occasions that investigations were being made, and that certain schemes were under consideration. Secondly, under Vote 11 (D) Furniture, Fittings and Utensils purchased by the Board of Works, would the Parliamentary Secretary tell us when summing up if such furniture is always purchased by tender, who deals with the tenders, what preference is given to Irish manufacture and for instance, whether the furniture and fittings recently purchased, and mentioned in the Estimate, are of Irish manufacture? The other evening a friend of mine in the restaurant had doubts as to whether the carpet there was of Irish manufacture. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us whether it is or not, and to say whether tenders were invited for it.

I know nothing about architects, or about architecture, but I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us something about drainage. I would like him to tell us the reason for the reduction in the estimate of work under the Arterial Drainage Act. Does the Parliamentary Secretary think that sufficient work has been done in that respect throughout the country? Does he think that the Department can slow down now and leave thousands of acres of land out of commission? Does the Department think that is the way to advance agriculture and to relieve the agricultural community about which we hear so much at present? To my mind the system of starting arterial drainage schemes is altogether too complicated. You have communications with the county councils and long consideration, engineers and valuers visiting the districts, and files sent back and forward for a long period, while all the time the land is flooded and remains out of commission. There are a good many acres in my county flooded that might be usefully worked if the Board of Works would speed up drainage schemes. I know of two schemes in particular where good land, comprising hundreds of acres, could be brought into use if the schemes were put through quickly. I refer to one scheme at Newmarket-on-Fergus and another in the Manus drainage district, which might be expedited. I speak on behalf of two interests at the moment: in respect of the farmers whose lands are being flooded and those who can make no use of them. The Land Commission expect these farmers to pay their annuities, while the county council expects them to pay rates for local services. These farmers are unable to bring their lands into commission so as to enable them to make the money required to meet the demands I have referred to.

There is another important interest that I want to refer to in these two districts. It is this, that there are hundreds of people unemployed who might be put to work in bringing these places into use for agricultural purposes. What I want to find out is, why the grant has been reduced this year. Is there in the Ministerial policy a desire to cut down such grants for what one might call productive work? We had a sample of that in the Land Commission Vote, and now we have it in connection with the Board of Works I wonder where we will have it next? I am not finding fault with the administration of the Board of Works so far as getting information and necessary details are concerned. I think that the Board of Works is doing very satisfactory work in that way, but it is the policy that we want some elucidation about. We want to know exactly what is the policy that induces the Department to reduce the grant for arterial drainage, and whether the Department cannot consider putting into practice a less complicated method than is in operation, and one more likely to get drainage schemes started. If that were done it would help not only to bring the land that I have referred to into commission. but to relieve the unemployed. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will give some information on these points before the debate concludes.

I am not interested in architects at all, but in connection with the reduction of the temporary staff, we know that the Board of Works has changed its policy as regards giving loans to farmers for the erection of buildings. This has now been transferred to another Department, and these inspectors, I presume, are either not engaged on work they used to be engaged on or they have been dismissed. I suppose that the inspectors who are trained to that work are now either rendered redundant or are disemployed, and that another Department of the State has taken up this matter of giving loans and that it is employing a new staff altogether. This new staff will have to be trained at, I suppose, the expense of the people. Under the Agricultural Credit Corporation the borrowers have to pay the expenses of the inspectors. In the past the expenses of the inspectors were paid by the State. I say that is a great hardship on the farmers. If that change has been made in the name of economy, then I say it is economy that is going to be practised at the expense of the rural population, and that it is not fair. In the past, the Board of Works gave loans to farmers up to an amount that would be about double the poor law valuation of a man's holding. They gave those loans without requiring security and without a mortgage. As far as I understand, these loans were always repaid in a satisfactory way If they were not paid to date, penal interest was charged. The Agricultural Credit Corporation will not give loans to farmers even to one-tenth of the valuation of a man's holding without a mortgage on the farm, and even with a mortgage the Corporation is not prepared to give loans. In view of that, I desire to protest against the policy of the Government and the Board of Works in the change that has been made. I think it is most unfair that such a change should have been made. In the past the Board of Works and the farmers did business together with great satisfaction. The inspectors, even though they were only temporary men, were trained and knew their men and their districts. Now the position is that the men are sent anywhere. They are temporary men. I have seen it stated in correspondence that, in some instances at any rate, they are only employed from day to-day. I say that that is a hardship on the farmers, and I must condemn the change that has been made.

In regard to drainage. I recognise the difficulty that the Department finds in dealing with farmers and getting them to accept liability for the benefits that accrue from the drainage. I know that it takes time to make these arrangements, and that even when the work is started it is slow. The suggestion that I have to make to the Board of Works is that they should purchase some dredgers for dredging the sides of the river banks, because in most cases the stuff that blocks the rivers is silt. We have had an example of the working of these dredgers in connection with the Shannon scheme. They are worked on caterpillar wheels and can be easily moved from one place to another. They are capable of doing at least all the soft work.

I should like to point out that, in the Cappamore drainage area, the village there is in great danger of being flooded. Within the last few years it has been flooded on four or five occasions, and should a big flood arise the village is in danger of being wiped out altogether. If the Department purchased a dredger and set it to work there the result would be that that village would be saved as regards the future. This would be a good time, in the dry weather, to get the required work done. These dredgers could be easily moved along the banks of the river for the purpose of raising the silt. That could be done at very little cost, and the result would be that the river banks would be rendered very much safer than they are at present. I think, if five or six of these dredgers were purchased, that they could be employed on work of this kind between the Board of Works and the Land Commission Department. As the river banks are at present, an enormous amount of damage is being done. After the Land Commission took over the land the farmers neglected the cleaning of the river banks. The landlords used to do this before they sold the land, but if even only one farmer neglects to remove the silt it goes on to the others. As the Board of Works have now taken up the work of drainage I would recommend them, with a view to speeding up drainage work on the rivers, to procure some of these dredgers.

I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to say that the Land Improvement Act was to be continued in operation so far as small farmers are concerned. I have an impression of getting a letter from the Board of Works stating that at the end of the financial year there would be no more work of that kind done. I may be mistaken in that, but I understood that this work was to be discontinued in view of the setting up of the Agricultural Credit Corporation. If that is not so, I would be glad to hear what the actual position is. In view of the fact that I was told that operations under that Act were to be discontinued I was greatly surprised to find here in the Estimates provision for the sum of £2,620 for salaries, £1,000 for travelling expenses, and £500 for advertisements, under sub-head E in connection with "The Land Improvement Acts, and Land Act, 1881, Loans."

Under sub-head D—New Works and Alterations—there is an item in the Appropriation Account of £725 and the note given explains that this has been paid to a contractor in respect of the cancellation of a contract for works carried out for the Gárda Síochána Barracks, at Beechwood, in County Tipperary. This contractor was paid £725 for the cancellation of his contract. We all admit that the contractor was entitled to some allowance for breach of the contract, but I would like to know what proportion of that total contract was the £725? The average allowance, I think, for rural police barracks is something like £1,450. £725 is just half that, and surely no contractor could expect to get more than the profit he would make out of the job? I would like to see what case is made for that. Was the building partially erected, and how much money had been spent on it? If the contractor spent £725 on the building he would be entitled to that as well as the legitimate profit which would accrue. That is a point I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to deal with. On page 30 there is an item of £354 16s. paid to the owner in full discharge of all claims for rent and damage to Claregalway castle.

In what year was that?

Mr. Boland

1927-28.

We are discussing the Estimates for 1929-30, and the Deputy is quoting from the Appropriation Accounts of recent years.

I understand the Deputy is quoting from the last available book, and he is in order.

Mr. Boland

Of that sum of £354 how much was for rent and how much for damage, and how was the damage caused? I also notice that £850 was paid to the owner in respect to Moore's Hotel, Cork, during occupation by the Gárda Síochána. I would like to know how that damage was caused. If it was due to structural alterations, well and good, but I should like to know if that was the reason or whether the damage was caused by riots or while they were beating some prisoners. There is a total estimate of £25,000 for headstones for British Military graves, and £5,000 is being asked this year. I have no objection to British Military graves being maintained, but I want to know is there any appropriation-in-aid in this respect. If it is a free gift are we in the position to hand over to the British £25,000 for graves here? It seems to me that £25,000 is a large sum for such a purpose for a country in the position in which we are. In addition to that, there is the sum of £900 for the upkeep of graves. I would like an explanation as to that. Do the British contribute to their upkeep? Then we have our friend the Governor-General with £1,000 for his furniture again this year. I raised this matter last year, and I inquired who was lucky enough to get the old furniture. I do not know was that £1,000 spent or not, We have not got the Appropriation Accounts for last year, and I do not know whether the sum was spent on furniture, fittings, and utensils. If that is an annual sum for furniture it is rather high for even the Governor-General. I think we are entitled to be told a little about it. These are small things, but when you tot them up they come to a respectable figure.

Turning to the Department of Defence, there is an item relating to administrative officers, etc. Last year the total given as chargeable under that head was £725. This year it is £4,872. That is £4,000 of an increase. I do not know what it is about, but I would like an explanation of it, especially when we see a big increase like that. I notice that the coastguard stations are costing £4,192 per annum, and apparently no use is being made of them. Last year we found that there were certain lands and buildings for which no rent was being paid by their owners, while no use was being made of them. I should like to know why property of that kind is being held if no use is being made of it, and no use intended to be made of it. Then in connection with aerodromes, last year there was a rent item of £1,700 and only half of that has been got back for grazing. The State has lost £800 on that alone. I think the Board of Works ought to see about getting rid of these places. The annual cost of the coastguard stations shows a reduction since last year of over £2,000, but I do not see why they should be kept and money spent on them if they are not wanted. The ex-military aerodrome costs £6,845 a year. There are sundry other premises or sites unlet or unoccupied. If you tot up these items they come to a pretty large sum. Glancing through the Estimates, I notice a reference to a school in the Phoenix Park. I do not know why it should be here, as I think it should be under the Department of Education.

The sum of £13,600 was expended on the Oireachtas restaurant last year. I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary were tenders invited for the construction of that restaurant? Were advertisements regarding it published in the Press, or is it a fact that only a few select people were approached? There is a rumour going around that only a few select firms are asked to tender for a job of that kind. I am not going to accept that statement, but I am told it is so, and there is a strong belief in the country, especially in the city of Dublin, that it is so, and that as a consequence there is no fair competition. I have got the names of the firms that have been mentioned. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will let us know whether the tenders in this case were privately invited, or were they published in the Press. Was the work done by contract, was the contract advertised, and how many firms tendered? I would also like to know the amount of Irish material that was used in connection with the construction of that restaurant. We have been told that all the pannelling was imported, and the same thing is said about the carpets, and things of that sort. Were tenders invited for them, and if not why not? I understand that in the Board of Works items of £500 and under are not tendered for. I think that is a bad practice.

There are two points on which I would like to say a word. They have been touched on by Deputy Nolan, and they are two matters in connection with this Vote which affect the farming community very closely. The first is in regard to the change of policy in respect of giving loans to farmers for the purpose of building or fencing. I understand that the present policy is that no farmer with a valuation over £20 is eligible to get a grant from the Board of Works to make improvements on his land. I regard that as a very retrograde step. From early years we have been familiar with the work of this Department throughout the country. It is right to say that the Department set a standard in the character of the work which they have done throughout the country. That work has been an example and a stimulus to others to make improvements by means of loans. The procedure in getting loans has been very simple and there has been no difficulty in proceeding with the work in the same season as that in which an application was made. Many farmers have availed themselves of such loans for the improvement of their dwellings and offices and especially for the erection of hay-barns.

They have been able to get these loans and repay them in twenty or thirty years without disturbing the money which is necessary in order to carry on farming operations. Deputy Nolan stated that the expense of these loans was borne by the Department. I think I am right in stating that from the first instalment of the loan a percentage is deducted for expenses, so that in this respect the Public Works Department are not altogether a philanthropic body, and the person who gets a loan not only repays the principal and interest but also a percentage towards the expenses. We are told that this branch of the work has now been handed over to the Agricultural Credit Corporation. That is not satisfactory. I do not want to say anything against the Agricultural Credit Corporation, but I must say that the change of policy is not pleasing to the farming community. The Public Works Department have their officers who understand the work and they have seen that it has been properly done. They have given the country work which will last for many generations. The loans' section is, however, handed over now to a new Department to be done, shall we say, on the cheap. Above all things, in this country when public money is paid out we want it spent in the best possible way to get the best possible work for the money. I would like to know when or by what authority that change of policy was made. When did the Dáil give its assent to a change of policy so that no farmer with a valuation of over £20 would get a loan from the Public Works Department? I would like that information to be given. I want to make my protest on behalf of the farmers whom I represent, and I want to say that we were well satisfied with the old system. It worked well and the character of the work done was excellent.

The other point I want to touch on is the question of drainage. I suppose that we all have sufficiently good memories to bring us back two years to June, 1927. Up and down the country at that time we were told that there were to be no more water-logged lands, no more superfluous water, and that in a short time the country would blossom like a rose and the valleys would be fertile, with every meadow producing its complement of produce for the country. In considering what has happened there is a very big gap. I do not say that it would be economic to carry out the entire policy as outlined. I do not think that the country could afford that policy, but the country certainly cannot afford to stand idle and have nothing done. Somewhere in between there should be something doing, something economic, something that would be relieving the fertile land and taking away water. Anyone with experience of the country knows that every year rivers and waterways become blocked and that the country gets worse. That has been accentuated by the very wet season which we have had, so that therefore land which looked all right is now overgrown with rushes. That, I suppose, is not altogether due to the want of arterial drainage, but it would account for it in low-lying parts.

The machinery by which this drainage is done is so cumbersome that if the slightest obstacle gets in the way it stops going altogether. If there is any barrier, as between countries or districts, it is held up so that nothing is done. We cannot blame the Parliamentary Secretary for cutting down the Estimate when the work is not being done. Money was voted for that work, and I am not blaming the officials of the Board of Works, but rather the system by which we are proceeding. The net result is that we are not get ting drainage work done, drainage which is so essential for carrying on the farming industry. Estimates were submitted which would have resulted in an exceedingly good job being done, but, when they were examined on those lines, it was found that the job was altogether uneconomic without the State contribution. I think that practical men should be able to evolve a smaller scheme that would give relief, that would be economic, and that would be so helpful that the people would be willing to contribute their quota to the cost of that work. These are questions which are vitally affecting the agricultural industry, and we would like to see some progress made in regard to that.

The points which I have to make were admirably dealt with by Deputies Nolan and Haslett and, without elaborating them furthere, I desire to say that the Parliamentary Secretary should now give us some idea why there has been a change in the function hitherto performed by his Department in regard to loans, and why that function has been transferred to an outside corporation. Perhaps he will say whether it is because the tenants who got the loans proved unsatisfactory in their payments. I think, however, that it will be found to have been quite the contrary. I agree with Deputy Haslett that the work done under the loans given by the Board of Works has been most satisfactory. It has been an example to others to carry out improvements and I think it is a mistake to transfer this matter of loans, not merely to another Department but to a body outside the jurisdiction of the Dáil. With regard to arterial drainage I endorse everything that has been said by Deputy Haslett. I would like to have from the Parliamentary Secretary a definite expression of opinion as to what his Department thinks of the recent Drainage Acts because, so far as I have been able to ascertain, they have proved to be practically unworkable. Whether that is due to any red tape in the Department I do not know; in fact, I do not think it is. I think it is due to defects in the Acts. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to say whether it is the belief of his Department that the Drainage Acts are not workable. If that be so, I think it is up to us to tackle the question of securing a satisfactory scheme of drainage and one that will prove workable.

In the matter of carrying out constructive works such as the making of bog roads and drainage schemes, as far as Donegal is concerned, to my mind the Board of Works has not been just as successful or as expeditious as I would wish.

On a point of order, the Board of Works never had the making of roads or the carrying out of farm drainage in Donegal. The Land Commission does it.

I would like to ask the Deputy who is responsible for carrying out these works?

The Deputy had better proceed with his speech.

Another point in connection with this Vote is—I had the same complaint to make with reference to the Vote for the Land Commission—that certain things are asked for by Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies which are granted, and the impression has got around, rightly or wrongly, that the Deputies of Fianna Fáil are absolutely hopeless in this matter of getting certain works carried out. Rightly or wrongly, that impression has been created, and I imagine it has been fostered by representatives of Cumann na nGaedheal. There is in this Estimate an item of £1,000 for the dredging of fishery harbours. This is a case in regard to which Deputies on these benches have been reproached with the taunt that we call for reduced expenditure and that when it is reduced, we call for increased expenditure. As I pointed out formerly, in certain of these debates, we are against useless and unnecessary expenditure, but we are for increased expenditure where it is necessary. This item of £1,000 in the matter of the dredging of harbours, as far as I know of it in Donegal, has been well-spent money, and if possible this amount should be increased. Let it be taken from other items in this particular Vote from which it could be taken without imperilling the success of the Department. To my mind, this £1,000 has been very well spent. I hope that the dredger at present operating in Killybegs Harbour will continue there for two or three weeks. It is doing very useful work and I hope it will continue to do the same useful work in other fishery harbours in Donegal and the rest of the country.

I do not like to have to refer to a matter twice but it is absolutely essential that another matter to which I have already referred should be brought up in connection with the administration of the Board of Works. That is the matter of Moore and Company, Buncrana. Rightly or wrongly, Moore and Company were admitted to those huts in the naval barracks at Bunerana. Then the discovery was made that these huts ought to have been advertised. I would be one of the first to advocate that any Government buildings should be advertised for public letting but when application was made to the Department those huts were granted to Moore and Company and when they put a price on them, it was accepted as a fair price by the Department. Suddenly the discovery was made that there was something wrong in connection with the matter and that the place should have been advertised. Why the discovery was not made during the eighteen months of the negotiations I do not know but the discovery was made subsequently and Moore and Company were told that they must vacate those premises. I brought up the matter here in the Dáil and subsequently Messrs. Moore and Company made application to the Department that they should be allowed to remain in possession of those huts until the place was advertised and a letting made, either to Messrs. Moore and Company or to somebody who would outbid them in the tender. That, to mind, was an absolutely fair and just proposition.

A representative of Messrs. Moore and Company along with myself approached the Minister for Finance. We put this proposition to him: that as Messrs. Moore and Company were in those huts, had established themselves there, had put in certain machinery, benches and so on, and were employing a number of hands, it would be impossible for Messrs. Moore and Company to remove all that machinery, bid or make a tender for the place and return to it if successful. The thing would cost too much. That application was unsuccessful. This is the letter sent to Messrs. Moore and Company on the 16th April, 1929:—

Re your letter of the 11th March, 1929, your application to be allowed to remain in occupation of these huts until a tenancy has been arranged, has received consideration. The Minister for Finance considers it necessary that clear possession should be obtained before the premises are advertised and tenders invited for letting. We will therefore call on you shortly to vacate the premises. The exact date on which we will require clear possession will be duly notified to you later and we will arrange that the interval between the vacation of the premises and the consideration of tenders will not be protracted.

I have been through the factory and I have taken a note of the different things that are there.

At present there are 45 workers employed, the girls earning anything from fifteen to twenty-five shillings a week according to the amount of work they do. There are 100 yards of benches, all of which are bolted to a concrete floor. The bolts are at a distance of about 18 inches on each side, and every bench, at a distance of about 2 feet, has to be cut for a machine. There is a large cutting machine for cutting cloth that weighs three-quarters of a ton. It is embedded in the concrete floor. Two electric motors are installed. They are embedded in concrete. There are electrical fittings on one row of benches on the one side for 28 machines and on the other side for 28 machines also. These machines have not yet been installed, because Messrs. Moore and Company do not know where they stand. The machines have been bought. They are waiting, and if and when this thing is satisfactorily settled Messrs. Moore and Company will employ up to 80 hands.

A tariff has been imposed in order to help this particular industry in the Saorstát. But why impose a tariff if we are going to use a club in order to kill an industry which has been already established? It is quite a simple thing, as any Deputy will admit. Messrs. Moore and Co. are prepared to give a guarantee. They have given it already, and remember Messrs. Moore and Co. will keep their guarantee far better than the Board of Works kept their guarantee when they gave a provisional lease to Messrs. Moore and Co. for five years with the option of renewing the lease for five further years. The Board of Works did not keep, or evidently do not intend to keep that agreement. Messrs. Moore and Co. are prepared to give a guarantee that they will give vacant possession if and when somebody else outbids them in the tender for the place.

There are many more huts attached to that naval barracks. Many more of the huts could be thrown open to anyone who wants to provide employment in Buncrana. Employment is badly wanted in the Saorstát, but if the Board of Works persists in this petty persecution— they may be going according to law; it is for them to say—and if they persist in saying that they must have vacant possession even for one day Messrs. Moore and Co. must, of necessity, remove the plant and machinery, tear those machines out of the ground, tear those benches out of the ground, and Messrs. Moore and Co. will not be in a position to make a tender at all, because they could not afford to instal machinery even after one day. It cost them £80 to get in and five weeks' work, and it would cost them £150 and ten weeks' work to get out, and the Board of Works want them to get out inside the next five or six weeks. I ask it, not on behalf of Messrs. Moore and Co., but on behalf of the employees of Messrs. Moore and Co., who will be thrown out on the roadside, and who badly want the money they are earning at present. Allow Messrs. Moore and Co. to remain in possestion. Let them make a tender. If defeated they are prepared to hand over vacant possession to the Board of Works, and the Board of Works can hand it to the successful man. It is not too much to ask, and if the Board of Works do not grant it, then I place them in a pillory and throw this at them, that they are responsible for killing an industry which has already been established in Donegal.

I rise to bear testimony to the good work that has been carried on by the Board of Works in my district. For nearly half a century people in the Buttevant and Churchtown area have been pleading with the British Government to drain the lands in that particular district and all to no avail. Engineers, valuers and so forth were sent down, but nothing was done. The present Board of Works commenced last year and gave employment there. Already the appearance of the district is showing the improvement that was looked for. The people there are delighted with it. They say that the fertile lands, that were flooded with water and that were growing nothing but——

Bed weeds.

I thought you were going to say bananas—rushes—the home of the water-hen, nothing else could live there—are showing the appearance that within the next few years all those lands can be tilled and will produce food for both man and beast. So much to the credit of the Board of Works.

I might also tell you that they have improved the different schoolhouses in that particular district that were mentioned to them as being in need of improvement. I went to that office on different occasions and I must say that every official there was most courteous. I need not tell you that I was most courteous myself. I do not think that I would be doing my duty to my constituents if I did not stand up to-day and thank the Board of Works for the very good work they have been doing down there. I only hope they will continue to do it. I may tell them to be prepared for a few more visits from me, because there are some more lands in the district that are in need of drainage and general improvement. I also join with Deputy Nolan and Deputy Haslett when they say that they would be sorry to see some of the powers that are already vested in the Board of Works taken away from them, because in that respect they have given general satisfaction. I have only to say that, taken all round, they are an admirable Department.

Unlike my friend Deputy Daly, I do not intend to bring a blush to the cheeks of the officials of the Department of the Board of Works by any contribution of mine to this discussion. What I have to say is meant by way of constructive criticism and to see if in doing so it would have an effect not so much on the officials of the Department as on the Minister and his immediate staff. There should be, in my view, a more liberal interpretation of the duties and functions of this Department of State. We find from time to time when complaint is made of certain defaults on the part of the Department, that the answer is a stereotyped one, referring the person who makes the complaint to a section or clause in some Act or other instrument governing the activities of that Department. So far as my constituency of Cork City Borough is concerned, we have undoubtedly a grievance. We have in the area sites of barracks formerly occupied by the British military. Whilst there is a very big demand for houses, and whilst the Department concerned is spending a good deal of money by way of grants and otherwise—though I may say incidentally not quite as much as I would wish—we have available sites of old barracks evacuated by British military which for a little expenditure could be converted into decent houses for working-class people and others. Perhaps it is the lack of co-ordination or something else, perhaps it is red tape that prevents this Department from doing the commonsense or the right thing. It is very easy to criticise the Department, I agree; it is easy to stand up in this House and to talk in terms of destructive criticism. That is the furthest thing from my mind at the moment. I know it is very easy to tear down and it is very hard to build up. For that reason, I do not want to be taken as indulging in that kind of easy criticism, and sometimes very acceptable criticism to a section of our community who cannot do anything constructive, but who are always prepared to do the destroying and the destructive thing.

We have in Cork City Borough, just a few miles outside the City, the old British military barracks in Ballincollig. With comparatively little expenditure these barracks could be converted into decent houses. In addition to accommodation for horses, warlike equipment and so on, there is a large number of houses which were formerly used as married quarters. So far, notwithstanding some representations from the Cork County Council, no attempt has been made to re-condition these houses. As I have already said, this is a matter that does not require much expenditure. You have the site, which is the most important thing, and you have the nucleus of decent buildings. In an ordinary business undertaking, in any commercial undertaking that I know of in Cork, these buildings would not be left derelict so long. They are not improving by allowing them to remain in their present condition. Rather are they deteriorating, and I want to suggest that some means should be devised by which this red tape should be got over and let us see what could be done by way of converting disused military barracks into habitable places for citizens of this State, apart altogether from the interests of the citizens of Cork.

Adjoining these barracks there is a fairly large area of good, arable land. Here again we are up against the system of red tape. I understand that representations have been made to this Department on behalf of would-be occupiers who are anxious to till the land, asking that some of this land should be apportioned to them. Again, we are up against red tape. Mind you, I am making no complaint against the officials, but we are up against the red tape of the Department and the want of that co-ordination which I think is required in cases of this kind. So far, that land is not let to tenants who want to till. Of course, I understand there is some kind of letting for grazing and other purposes, but while we talk so much about production, and whilst we have thousands of our fellow-countrymen and women anxious and willing to till the land, to use the land as God intended it should be used, for reproductive purposes, we have a Government Department holding up land of this character.

Having dealt with that aspect of affairs, so far as it relates to the Cork City Borough, I propose to deal with another phase or department of this Office of Public Works. It might be considered, if you like, of not quite so utilitarian a character as the matter to which I have already referred, but, taking some little interest, at any rate, in anything that concerns the cultural or aesthetic side of our lives, I certainly do not feel at all pleased with the small amount allotted in this Vote under the heading "Ancient Monuments Protection Act." I want to suggest, whilst that may not be by some people considered of any utilitarian value, that very few members in this House can appreciate the real value of this kind of aestheticism, if you like, or culture, applied to our daily lives. It may not be represented or reflected in the financial statement or on the ledger of the nation. At any rate, I want to submit that it has very good and useful reactions on the civic spirit of our citizens. I do know that much is being done by way of voluntary effort by such admirable and estimable bodies as archæological societies. I do know that wherever a university exists the atmosphere which is bound to grow up in that centre does much to inculcate in our citizens a love of the arts, a love of culture and other subjects appropriate thereto. I am rather surprised to find that whilst we have in the Executive Council of the Saorstát many men of great and admitted ability, none of them apparently has seen fit to comment on the sum of money allotted, namely, £67, for the purpose, which to me, at least, is very important, of the ancient monuments of our country.

It appears that this £67 is not even given as salary; it is a kind of pin money to the architects in this Department. I note that two of these persons in receipt of the £67 act temporarily as architects. They receive temporary allowances sufficient to raise their basic salaries to £540 per annum. Another acts as principal draftsman and inspector of ancient and national monuments. The inspector also receives a salary of £33 per annum for services in respect of national monuments out of the special fund provided under 32 and 33 Victoria, chapter 42. As a nation we claim to have at least some culture and pretend to have a tradition of culture. We hear invoked from time to time the names of great Irishmen who have made not alone a reputation in this country, but a world-wide reputation and fame as artists and sculptors, and in fact in every branch of literature and art. We hear tribute from time to time paid to them by the representatives of all Parties in this House. Yet we find that not alone for this, but for other departments of art, like the National Museum and other institutions, which cater for the cultural side of education, comparatively speaking, very paltry sums are allotted. To me, at any rate, this Vote and others like it go to show that not alone in this Department, but in other Departments, where the activities of the State are brought under review, there is a good deal of make-believe. If we pretend to anything educational or cultural, if we boast of our National University or of the traditions of Trinity, and the men it produced, I suggest that it is not reflected in our Estimates. After all, there is an acid test for all this pretence, and I call it nothing but pretence. We can find money for guns and ammunition and all sorts of warlike services where the destruction of human life is concerned. We who pretend—and I use that word advisedly—that we have a love of culture and education, and the things that they connote, can only find paltry sums of from £60 to £100 to devote to the arts to which I referred.

This is one of two Departments of the State which inspire the least amount of confidence in the ordinary citizen, in spite of the praise that Deputies Byrne and Daly gave it. It is the common experience of Deputies, on this side of the House at any rate, that whatever hope they have of getting grievances rectified, or getting a move on, by other Departments, there is no chance with either the Office of Public Works or the Land Commission. Deputy Daly must have had the four-leaf shamrock when he made the wilderness blossom, or else he kissed the Blarney Stone before he came up this week. He considers it a wonder that a certain drainage scheme has been carried out in his part of the country and that a couple of schools were erected. He considers that a miracle has been performed. What is the Office of Public Works for, if it does not do these things? What is extraordinary about that? Unfortunately, Deputies from other parts of the country cannot say that such things have been done in their districts. There is a Vote here for arterial drainage, and I take it that it covers the old drainage boards which have come down to us from the British time. Our experience of these boards is that they neither do their work nor let it alone. Where is the supervision? What is the Office of Public Works doing? Let us take the Inny Drainage Board. Where was the supervision there for the last ten years?

Is not that work for the county council?

This drainage board has nothing to do with the county council.

Mr. Bourke

It has nothing to do with the Office of Public Works, either.

I should like to know under what statute does it exist. Is it an independent board?

Mr. Bourke

It is, absolutely.

Without any supervision from the Office of Public Works? Yet the engineer of the Office of Public Works comes down every five or six years, goes up in a boat and makes maps, and goes back. It is an extraordinary state of affairs. Then we have the secretary of the board going away after embezzling seven years' rates, because there was no supervision. That is a matter that should come under the consideration of the Parliamentary Secretary.

The Parliamentary Secretary says that he is not responsible for it and, therefore, it does not arise under this Vote.

The county council say they have no responsibility; the Local Government Department say they have no responsibility, yet the engineer of the Office of Public Works periodically inspects this river base.

Mr. Bourke

Not of the Office of Public Works.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands and Fisheries, on the Land Commission Vote, raised a point which I want to bring to bear on the Office of Public Works. Speaking of the permanent officials, he said:—

If the Land Commission were staffed entirely by temporary forces without restrictions as to numbers, it might be possible to make quicker progress with the completion of its main work, but where a large staff of permanent and experienced officers are involved, the State must take notice of the danger of being left with a greater number of such officers on its hands than can be fully provided with work for the full period of their permanent service.

I think that is the motive that actuates the employment of this huge unnecessary staff in the Office of Public Works. I think the two "white elephants" that the Government have on their hands, and which they have no control or power over, are the Office of Public Works and the Land Commission.

On examining the Estimate for the the office of Public Works we find that the amount to be expended on reconstruction has decreased by forty per cent. Yet we find that the travelling expenses of the engineers and architects carrying out this work have not gone down forty per cent. The travelling expenses of the architectural branch have only gone down sixteen per cent. How does that come about? Are they provided with expenses to get back to Dublin to see their private clients to whom Deputy MacEntee referred? We find that the travelling expenses of the engineering branch are exactly the same and that the general travelling expenses are the same. With reference to these travelling expenses and the work of the engineering branch and looking at the Ballymore drainage and the Trimblestown drainage it strikes me that these expenses are for something else besides the supervision of these works. It is a well-known fact that there was absolutely no supervision there, that the men actually lay down on the bank half the day and that on some days they were not visited by the engineer at all. In spite of the decreased work, we find that the clerical officers have been increased from thirty-six to thirty-eight and that the writing assistants have been increased from two to five.

We find an item here on Vote 10 in connection with the Accounts Branch—"Extra payments at half-yearly gales and preparation of annual loan account—£130," so that when the Vote comes on every half year there is extra money given to the staff for doing that amount of work. We find that the telegraph and telephone expenses are the same. The ordinary man in the country who has experience of the Board of Works will ask "what do they telegraph and telephone about?" He knows the Board does no work. Perhaps it is like some of the telegrams that I saw coming in in connection with reconstruction works in barracks when the architect wired he would come on Saturday. Saturday came and he was not there. Then he wired he would come on Monday, but Monday came and he was not there. He might be there on Wednesday.

I see there is an item showing an increase in the temporary messengers from seven to eight. They must not have installed the slot machines in the Office of Public Works as they did in other Departments. In Westmeath they have under reconstruction a Gárda Síochána barrack at Rochford Bridge and Castletown Geoghegan. I would like to know what is the necessity for reconstruction there? Are not the Gárda as well housed as they could be? Did they not reconstruct the Cool barracks two miles from another barracks? The Gárda was decreased to four, and they have a house that would easily accommodate at least eight. Yet we are led to believe that the tendency is to reduce the Gárda. What is the necessity to rebuild every barrack that was occupied by the old R.I.C. when in a few years you will be evacuating some of these places?

I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to say, and I am open to correction on the point, that work under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1925, was being supervised by the Office of Public Works. He gave certain figures that put me in mind of Land Commission figures. The Land Commission generally starts by talking of millions of acres being inspected, and then when you get down to brass tacks you find that about a hundred thousand acres is all that is being really dealt with. I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to say that there were a couple of hundred appeals lodged in this matter, but all that were dealt with was twenty. But that is not the exact thing I want to come to. If the Arterial Drainage Act of 1925 is to be a success it would want to be carried out in a different way from the arterial drainage schemes carried out by the Office of Public Works heretofore, which were neither done not let alone. If the engineers of the Office of Public Works do not exercise greater supervision, or if they go about things in a slipshod fashion, the result of that Act will be null and void.

It was pointed out in the Sinn Fein programme that a proper drainage scheme for this country should be one of our objects, but that has never been carried out. This Government passed the Arterial Drainage Act, but if the Office of Public Works are going to carry out arterial drainage in the manner they carry out other work they might as well let it alone.

took the Chair.

Deputy Byrne, who, I am afraid, will not get his photo into "The Catholic Pictorial" after his defence of the Office of Public Works, said it was a reasonable and right thing to expect that public officials should carry out work as private individuals in their spare time, so that now we may expect men employed in the Land Commission to become estate agents. and men employed in the Local Government Department to become insurance inspectors, and so on, and so on. Certainly that is a peculiar attitude of mind.

But seeing the evolutions that Deputy Byrne performed over the Censorship Bill, we could not expect very much. As regards the practice of the architect in the matter of doing work for private firms or private individuals, it is very evident to us, without any great knowledge of architects' work, that the architect must be there during daylight. He cannot go there by candle light and inspect the work. The only time he can be there is during working hours, and if he goes there during working hours, he must neglect his ordinary work. The fact that a great many of these architects are engaged on work down the country will emphasise that point. The main point in connection with the Board of Works is that it is staffed by a number of officials who are unsympathetic to the aspirations of the majority of the people of this State. These officials do not put any enthusiasm into the carrying out of their work and they are perhaps actuated by motives towards retarding progress here. If in another State a minority monopolised the Department, and if that minority retarded the progress in that State, that State would very soon get rid of them. It would be a great economy for this State if we are to have no improvement and if we are to have no progress with the business that the Board of Works is doing, to get rid of the whole of it, lock, stock and barrel.

I listened with some interest to Deputy Kennedy. He has gone over a great number of items in this Vote and he has quoted for us a considerable amount of figures. All I say is that if the wisdom the Deputy has displayed in connection with these figures—about which I do not know a great deal—is as great as the wisdom he displayed with regard to something about which the Deputy should know a great deal, that is the matter of the Arterial Drainage Acts, then I think the Parliamentary Secretary need not pay much attention to the statements of Deputy Kennedy. I understand that the Deputy is a member of a county council in his area. As such he should be aware of the fact that drainage work is carried out under the Act of 1924. Maintenance and reconstruction are carried out under that Act. After that is done the drainage areas are handed over to the county council, and then it becomes the duty of the county council to see that the drainage is maintained in the area. The same thing applies to the 1925 Act.

On a point of order. I want to point out to Deputy Conlon that there are a number of old drainage boards here in the country which do not come under the supervision of the county councils. A number of old drainage boards along the Shannon strike and collect their own rate and are not responsible to any county council.

If there is anything further to be said on the matter, I know that the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to deal with it. In the county that I represent myself practically all the old drainage boards have been replaced by the county council. I do not know that even the county council of Roscommon has yet realised its duty in connection with that matter. The only item to which I wish to refer in connection with this Estimate is the matter of arterial drainage. The reason I do so is because I consider it is the most important item in this whole Estimate. It is the most important item for the people of this country. Indeed, for the greater bulk of the people it is more important than any other item.

Two years ago, the Minister for Finance stated in this House that he regretted that the county councils particularly did not take a greater interest in the arterial drainage of their districts and that they did not take up the question of the drainage of areas under the 1925 Act with more enthusiasm. The Minister pointed out that the Board of Works carried out the original inspection and prepared the Estimate, and that in nearly all cases the drainage of large areas would be uneconomic and that the people whose lands would be drained would not be able to pay all the costs. He pointed out that the Government was prepared to give a grant up to thirty-three and one-third per cent. of the total cost in cases where the schemes were not economic, and that even after that they were prepared to give cent. per cent. if the county councils would agree to give a grant. Altogether the Government was prepared to give a grant amounting to as much but not exceeding 50 per cent. of the entire cost of the work.

Notwithstanding these wonderful advantages, it is rather strange that greater advantage was not taken of these offers. Two years have gone by and we find that the total estimate under arterial drainage is £22,000. That shows that little advantage has been taken of these Acts. I do not think that that is altogether the fault of the people whose lands have been flooded. I think it largely the fault of the local councils. I know in the constituency I represent, the people of every drainage area in the whole county got up petitions and sent them forward to the county council. I must, however, say that the delay is not the fault of the Board of Works. Of these schemes there were, I think, 40 or 50 inspected in Roscommon in 1926. The Act was passed in 1925 and a superficial inspection was made in 1926. About six schemes were taken out and proceeded with immediately by the Board of Works. Of these one scheme, I understand, is now completed, and I also understand that it is about the first scheme that has been completed within the Saorstát under the Arterial Drainage Act of 1925. There are four other schemes and they have not yet been put forward to any great extent.

I am sure that other areas in the country are in much the same position as Roscommon. A delay of nearly two years took place because the county council did not take the matter up at first. Fortunately they have taken it up since and they have agreed to give the necessary contribution. I know the people are most anxious to have this work done. In one area in Roscommon hundreds of tons of hay have been lost during the last couple of years owing to the fact that the drainage has not been carried out. I know the people concerned are most anxious to get this work carried through. Last year I approached the Board of Works several times on this matter.

Now, I want to say that I have no complaint to make about the Board of Works. I wish to thank them for the work they have already performed in Roscommon. The delay that has been caused is not altogether their fault but I would say that the Board has been a little too slow. I am aware that their engineers and inspectors have work to do in other areas but I would appeal to them to get on with work now as fast as possible because the people concerned are most anxious to see the work done. I want to say that this work is very constructive work. The carrying through of these works and the drainage of the rivers will mean for the people that their hay and other crops will be safe from being ruined by the floods. In addition to that, the work of drainage gives much needed employment. Some time ago here we heard a great deal about the need for grants to help relief of distress.

We would all like to see grants given for the relief of distress in the country, but I think that if this arterial drainage work and the Arterial Drainage Acts were taken advantage of, as they ought to be to the full by the county councils, a great benefit would accrue in the matter of employment and in the matter of improvements. Low lying districts are the places that would be mostly affected by the Arterial Drainage Acts and these are areas also in which the poorest people live. For that reason it is to these areas that need it so much that the greatest benefit would accrue. We have these four schemes amounting to something like £30,000 in total cost.

Nearly half of this money is a free grant from the Government. I consider that is a wonderful advantage to any district. The spending of so much money in a district and carrying out improvement works is a benefit to the district apart altogether from the lands that are benefited. I do not wish to occupy the House much longer because I presume it is desired that this Vote should be completed to-day. I appeal to the Department of Works to facilitate those county councils and those areas which have shown an interest in the Arterial Drainage Acts and which were anxious to have these improvements carried out. I appeal to the Department to give as much assistance as possible in getting the work expedited.

I agree with Deputy MacEntee that members on this side of the House are grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for the amount of information he has given them. I think that as well as telling us the programme which the Board of Works has in hand and the amount of work it proposes to complete during the coming year, the opportunity would have been a good one for making a more definite statement with regard to Government policy in the matter of the future of the Board of Works itself. The work of reconstruction of destroyed buildings throughout the Free State is nearly completed. In that way, one of the most important functions of the Board of Works is coming to an end. I agree with Deputy Conlon and other speakers that through the machinery of the Board of Works a great deal of money can be made available not alone for drainage, but for building purposes. Contractors in out-of-the-way parts of the country are able to give a certain amount of employment owing to the works that have been carried on. Now, that kind of work is coming to an end. The larger buildings are being completed in Dublin. The amount which is being spent on the reconstruction of Gárda Síochána barracks in the country is considerably decreasing and, presumably, will disappear in a year or two except for the cost of maintenance. In view of that, I think the Government should take into consideration the whole question of what exactly the functions of the Board of Works will be in the future and what particular aspects of national work it should undertake.

A great deal of criticism that is levelled against the Board of Works arises by reason of the fact that it has come down to us, as Deputy Kennedy pointed out, with a certain number of appendages. Perhaps the Board of Works will disclaim that they have appendages, but, nevertheless. I will say they have appendages in the way of drainage boards and certain accounts and funds which existed under the old British Acts of Parliament. They are still there and they ought to be wound up. An example of that in this year's Estimate is the reference to the Land Improvements Acts and the Land Act of 1881. Last year, I think, the Parliamentary Secretary told us it was expected to wind up that particular part of the Board of Works. He tells us this year that it is proposed to continue it and that advantage will be taken of those Acts and of the powers the Board of Works have to give loans to farmers under £20 valuation. There could be hardly anything of more value or benefit to the country than such a scheme. I do not think that the Government have thought out that whole thing as a scheme, but simply have decided to keep the thing on for the present and have not made up their minds as to what is going to happen. The number of applications is decreasing and the amount which is spent on the administration of these Land Improvement Acts has decreased very considerably. A point has been reached where the Government ought to make up its mind if it thinks there is a good case for showing that the Agricultural Credit Corporation does not cover the cases of the smaller farmers. A good case exists for investigating this whole question and bringing the Land Improvement Acts up to date and so enabling the Board of Works, if that service is to be continued, to be continued not along archaic lines as at present or under anything like the old-time conditions, but in a thoroughly up-to-date manner if we really mean it to work for the benefit of the small farmers.

Another thing that shows us the Government is not clear about the exact functions of this Department is the manner in which work belonging to other Departments is administered by it. In preceding years I think there was a sub-head in the Vote of the Fisheries Department for the maintenance of marine works. This year I cannot find that sub-head. There is a good deal of expenditure in connection with the improvement of harbours which was an old duty of the Board of Works, and there was also work in connection with dredging, rural industry classes, and other minor works of that sort. Work such as the maintenance of small harbours should rightly come under the Fisheries Department. The fact is that the work the Department of Fisheries should really carry out is being carried out by the Board of Works, and that shows there are anomalies and there is overlapping. It would be well to examine the whole question and to arrange definitely what kind of work the Board of Works will be responsible for.

With regard to drainage, the Parliamentary Secretary stated there were 370 schemes, of which 214 had been valued. The fact that 214 have been valued shows they are on the way to completion. I take it they have passed the County Council and the Board of Works, both of whom are prepared to go ahead with them, and the responsibility for holding them up further would, I think, lie on the Ministry of Finance. Deputy Conlon finds fault with the county councils for not taking more advantage of the facilities the Arterial Drainage Acts give. I do not think it is quite fair to blame the county councils. There are certain difficulties in the matter of raising rates. We all know how difficult it is to get a thing done in one particular area. The people of the rest of the county feel that they are being put under an additional obligation. There is a certain parochial issue. On the other hand, even when you do get the county council to agree to a scheme as necessary and reproductive, you have to get the county surveyor to carry out all the work. I am not a member of a county council, and am not very familiar with the procedure. I certainly think there is a definite defect in the Arterial Drainage Acts in respect to the handing over of preliminary work to the county surveyor. He is a very busy man and usually has a great deal to do. His assistants are badly paid, and they are fully employed throughout the whole year. There ought to be some better provision for preparing schemes. The schemes are usually of a very technical character, and it is not fair to blame the county councils, because, in a lot of cases, the county councils are not able to permit their county surveyor to take up the work. To do so would mean adding considerably to the burden of work he already has to discharge.

If we are going to tackle drainage as a national problem why not have a national staff of engineers and let them, as far as possible, be responsible? By all means let the local bodies share the burden, but if you want an efficient scheme I submit that in the long run you will find it will be much better to have a staff of drainage engineers specially qualified in the work established at a central headquarters. They should be specially qualified, particularly in the investigation work which has to be carried out. In County Kilkenny there is only one notable drainage scheme. Deputy Conlon will be glad to hear that the County Council are not in any way responsible for that. They suggested a scheme and the Board of Works made an examination. Following the examination it was found that a much bigger scheme involving the whole River Nore would be necessary. That shows that very often the information one gets locally and the local investigations are at fault, and I submit that more responsibility should be put on the head office in assisting in the preparation of these schemes.

Is it not a fact that schemes are prepared by the Board of Works under the Act of 1925, where the schemes are over £1,000?

The matter of contracts has been raised in connection with the building of the restaurant. The restaurant cost £19,000 in all, and dissatisfaction was expressed because the Board of Works—we will take this as a typical example— did not employ Irish materials to the extent that it should have employed them. I think that in their contracts they ought to have a specific provision, which should be carried out in all cases, that Irish materials should get a preference. If the National Assembly and the services connected with it do not give a preference to Irish workmanship, and to the skilled trades that we have in stone work and so on, who is to do it? Even if it involved a little more expense I think that these finishing trades ought to get as much support as is possible from the Board of Works. In that connection also there is very heavy expenditure on furniture and fittings, and it would be well if we had a statement from the Parliamentary Secretary that a definite effort is being made to keep that money in the country as far as possible. I take it that tenders are asked for in all cases where supplies are being obtained for the various Government services, and what we would like to have an assurance upon is that there is a provision in these contracts requiring the money to be spent in the country as far as possible.

Deputy Kennedy has referred to the building of barracks. These are matters that ought, of course, to come under the Votes for the Department of Justice and the Department of Defence, but, as the House knows, the Minister for Defence, at all events, does not overburden us with information in regard to the working of his Department. I notice that in the list of works Michael Collins' Barracks, Cork, is down for a sum of £7,000 this year, and subsequent to this year apparently it is estimated that a sum of £39,000 will be taken to complete the work. I think that there is a certain lack of cohesion and co-operation between the Department of Defence, the Department of Justice, and the Office of Public Works in the carrying out of some of these contracts which involve very large sums of money. Works are ordered to be gone on with and are then cancelled. The Departments responsible for the works, in the first instance, ought to have their programmes made out, ought not to put the Board of Works in the position of having to justify to the House expenditure which was very often rushed upon it, in the first instance, and which was afterwards cancelled. For that reason, in a note to the Appropriation Accounts for 1927-28, we have a reference to a contractor who had to be paid a large sum of money because a building was in the course of being completed when the Civic Guards' headquarters decided that they were not going on with it. In that connection there is a sum of £6,850 to be spent on the adaptation of Beggar's Bush Barracks. If that means that the Government intend to proceed to turn that barracks into Government offices, well and good, but it seems to me that the fact that you are setting up the Stationery Office there will make it impossible to do what Deputy Anthony has suggested, that is, to turn some of these barracks into flats for people who cannot get houses. I think when you put Government offices into a barracks, you more or less exclude the idea of turning that barracks to advantage in the matter of housing.

The general expenditure on this Department is very heavy, and one of the reasons that adequate or very relevant criticism is impossible is because we do not know rightly where we stand with the Board of Works. It has certain functions under a very large number of Acts. Now that the Government are reconstituting Departments like the Department of Agriculture, in my opinion they should take in hands the work of bringing in an Act to simplify this whole matter of the Office of Public Works and to re-state its functions so that the House would know exactly what it is getting for the very large expenditure that has to be accounted for under this heading.

In the fishing village of Union Hall there is a great need for housing accommodation for the fishermen. There is a coastguard station there with about two acres attached. A little expenditure on it would provide suitable accommodation for six or seven fishermen and their families. Would it be possible for the Parliamentary Secretary in any way to assist us to utilise that for this very laudable purpose? Not alone in that village, but in other fishing villages along our seaboard there are coastguard stations on which an expenditure, not of too much money, but of a substantial amount, would turn into good houses for the fishermen. There is Schull and Baltimore. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give the matter serious consideration, because by doing what I suggest he would be coming to the assistance of people who are out in the cold and for whom there is no prospect unless the Government comes to their assistance.

I would like to bring one or two points to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary. I congratulate him on the work that he has done on the Barrow drainage in my constituency, but I regret to see that that Estimate is somewhat reduced. I would certainly be prepared to vote money for that object, or for any similar scheme which would improve land, because I look upon that as a national matter, and I regard any money spent in that way as money well spent, more especially as it would give employment. The Barrow scheme has certainly improved lands in the area between Monasterevan and Athy and around Portarlington and Mountmellick. I was interested to note that 37 per cent. of the money estimated as required for this scheme has been spent. Of course that does not represent 37 per cent. of the work, because in that 37 per cent is included a good deal of money spent on such things as additional steam dredgers and some other plant. From what we have been told, about 28 per cent. of the total estimated on excavations has been carried out. It certainly has been a wonderful improvement to the land there, and one can visualise what a great improvement it will be when the scheme is finished. Thousands of acres of land around Portarlington, Brackna and Mountmellick will be improved.

There are one or two other schemes to which I would like to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary. One is a minor scheme that was passed by the Leix County Council in connection with the Drimogue River, which flows through Stradbally and empties into the Barrow. The Board of Works states that that is part of the Barrow scheme and that nothing can be done with it until the Barrow is drained, but local engineers contend that there is quite sufficient fall into the Barrow and that the work could be proceeded with. There have been some excavations and cleaning from Athy up to Stradbally. I would be glad if the Board of Works could see their way to begin work in that area. This is more important still to my mind, because of the benefits to the health and lives of some hundreds of people in the town of Mountmellick. We are told that there could be no water or sewerage schemes until the Barrow is drained. I believe that to be so in respect of part of the town, because it is always flooded. and until the Barrow is drained work could not be begun there. But at any rate the work is important. I would be glad to have the Barrow drained when we come before the Minister for Local Government with reference to the drainage and water schemes. I was glad to hear about the Erkinagh drainage, because that has been passed for some time, and the County Council were anxious to hear about it. It only remains now for the Leix County Council to say that they will contribute their proportion. It is a very important scheme. There is £17,000 to be spent on it and it will drain practically 2,000 acres of land. Taking everything into consideration, I desire to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the work that has been done in my constituency.

I would like to get some information from the Parliamentary Secretary as to the manner in which contracts are given out by the Board of Works. I would like to know whether they are advertised or whether they are arranged with private individuals. My information is that in a particular part of the country it has been the custom to arrange contracts with a private individual. I am told that these contracts are never advertised, and they are given to this one individual in all cases. I would like to know if such is the case. It is the general opinion amongst the people in that part of the country that this thing savours very much of corruption, and I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to state what is the system in giving out these contracts, whether it is the custom for the Board of Works to advertise or to arrange for them to be done by individual contractors. I have also been told that it is the custom of the Board of Works architects to bring round the particular contractor to whom I have referred when they are making out estimates for contracts. I would like to know if that is a fact.

Mr. Bourke

As on a previous occasion Deputy MacEntee was mainly concerned with our architectural staff, and drew attention to the fact that the reduction in the estimate for salaries for that staff does not seem to bear a proper proportion to the reduction in the amount of work carried out by the staff. In that connection I would like to say that the main portion of our architects' work is maintenance work. When we were carrying out those new works the amount expended on them did not bear any proportion to the amount expended on additions to our staff, so that naturally, when we were reducing the amount of new work it would not be shown to the same extent in the reduction in staff. He dealt with what was perhaps a more important point, in connection with our architects doing work for private individuals. There was considerable discussion on this matter last year. It is always a matter of considerable difficulty in the Civil Service to decide what work can be done by civil servants outside office hours and what work cannot be so done. As I have said, in this particular case we strongly lean against the practice of our architects doing work of a similar kind outside, even though that work is not done during office hours. The practice was handed down to us from the British and a kind of right seems to have grown to which some of these officials were anxious to cling. The Deputy, in discussing this Estimate last year, said he was in a position to point out some flagrant instances of abuse in this connection. I asked him to co-operate with me in bringing the offenders to justice, but unfortunately his zeal seemed to drop after he left the House. However, I went very closely into the whole matter, and I discovered that there were a few cases where this custom had been abused. Accordingly, I recommended to the Department of Finance that the practice should cease. I do not think the Deputy or anyone else will have any reason to complain about the conduct of our officials in this respect in future.

Deputy Fahy asked for some information about the Corrib drainage district. That district has been the subject of discussion for a very long time. We investigated the matter very thoroughly, and we found that any comprehensive scheme that would give relief there would be absolutely and hopelessly uneconomic. Investigations by our engineer elicited that it would require about £267,000 to do useful work on the Clare river, about £50,000 on the Corrib river, and £17,000 on the Cregg river. All these are part of the Corrib drainage district. We decided that we could not do anything in the district, or carry out any work that would relieve the farmers, unless of a very superficial nature. We have accordingly decided just to do some cleaning up in that river, attending to some of the more glaring cases of obstruction, at a cost not exceeding £10,000. Our chief engineer is working on a scheme of that kind, and I hope to be in a position shortly to lay it before the Minister for Finance.

A question was asked about the building of the Oireachtas Restaurant. It was originally intended not to advertise that for tenders, as it was a job that had to be done in a hurry, and that required people of exceptional skill upon whom we could depend to carry it out successfully. However, on reconsideration. I decided that it was better to advertise this job, and that was done, so that it was not a case of giving the work to one particular contractor. It was advertised in the ordinary way. Deputy Fahy asked what was our policy with regard to the purchase of furniture for public buildings. That is also a matter for public tender, and we give preference to the limit of 20 per cent. for Irish manufactured goods. In connection with the carpet for the restaurant, that was not advertised. As I say, the restaurant was a rushed job which, I think, the Deputy will admit was carried out very quickly, and very efficiently, but, in order to have the carpet on the floor in time for the meeting of the Oireachtas, we had to give the contract to a firm that carries out a good deal of work for the Office of Public Works. I might say that to have got a carpet of Irish manufacture for the Oireachtas restaurant it would have cost twice as much as the carpet that we did get—that is for a similar kind of carpet—and in addition I am sure that we would not have had it in time.

There has been a certain amount of general criticism of our drainage policy. I would like to say that it is always a questionable point as to whether any further drainage in this country could be justified for the simple reason that during the last 85 years a great deal of work of that kind has been done in the country, and naturally the best schemes have been picked out. In fact, we are only in the position of gleaners. We may take up a few schemes here and there that are worth doing, but in the vast majority of cases these schemes are not economic. I would ask Deputies to consider the amount of free grants that have had to be contributed to the few schemes that have already reached the stage of completion, or the stage of having the work actually carried out on them. In my opening statement I gave figures as to the Awbeg and Akeragh Lough in Kerrv where free grants up to 80 per cent. have been given. We have the same position in regard to the Owenmore and the Barrow. In regard to all these schemes big grants would have to be given by the Government and by the local bodies in order to make them economic. Making these schemes economic simply means putting a charge on the occupiers of the lands that are benefited that will be equal to about twice the amount of benefit that will probably be derived as a result of the scheme being carried out. Therefore, Deputies can see the ridiculous lengths that have to be gone to in the carrying out of these drainage schemes, and the extravagant lengths the Government have to go in making grants available for them. In regard to one particular case at the present time, there is a question of the Government and the local body contributing 100 per cent of the cost of the scheme, and it will require that to make the scheme economic.

In some cases the cost of maintenance is high, and, as a matter of fact, even 100 per cent. help would be required to make them economic, so that it is foolish to press the Government to rush uneconomic schemes. The decision as regards some of those schemes ultimately rests with the farmers. It is for them to decide whether they will have a scheme or not, and they have the power to veto those schemes. In our experience it is hard to say what scheme will go through and what will not. In some cases, where a very small grant from the county council or the Government would make the scheme economic the scheme was not proceeded with. There is one particular scheme in Tipperary where a grant of 33 per cent. would make it economic. We were willing to give that grant, but the local people would not have the scheme. In another case, where the Government was prepared to make a big grant, and the county council was also prepared to do so, the scheme was not accepted by the local people. There are no short cuts to carrying out drainage schemes. They have to be very carefully investigated unless we are to rush into unjustifiable extravagance. Deputy Boland referred to police barracks in Tipperary in respect of which £725 was paid to the contractor, although the work was not carried out. In that particular case a great portion of the work was carried out, and the £725 was in consideration of that work, and material left on the site.

Mr. Boland

Can the Parliamentary Secretary work out what percentage of the total contract price this man got?

What was the actual value of the work done?

Mr. Bourke

I cannot say that now. I will give the information later if the Deputy desires. I think it all came before the Public Accounts Committee. On the question of British military graves, that is a matter of Government policy. The question has been decided between the British Government representatives and the Executive Council. As it is a question of policy it is not a matter with which the Department is concerned.

Mr. Boland

Is there no Appropriation-in-aid?

Mr. Bourke

No.

Might I ask what graves? We do not want to be controversial on this. In fact, we are anxious not to be so, but we want information. What is the nature of the service? What are the graves, and where are they?

Mr. Bourke

That might take me a very long time.

A matter of £25,000 ought to take up some of your time.

Mr. Bourke

The arrangement is: The Executive Council have decided to undertake the care and maintenance of the graves of all British soldiers buried in Saorstát Eireann, including the cost of providing and erecting headstones for the graves of those whose deaths occurred as the result of the Great War, 1914-1918, as well as for the graves of serving soldiers killed and buried in Saorstát Eireann up to 31st August, 1921. The decision involves the provision and erection of headstones on the graves of—(a) British soldiers who fell in the Great War, i.e., who have died from wounds inflicted, accidents occurring or disease contracted while on active service, either on sea or land, and who have been buried in An Saorstát; (b) British soldiers killed in the fighting of 1916 who have been buried in An Saorstát; (c) British soldiers killed in the late Anglo-Irish conflict who have been buried in An Saorstát.

The total number of British military graves involved is about 12,000, of which about 10,000 are pre-war graves. The decision as regards headstones does not apply to these latter graves. It is not possible in the absence of detailed information, which has not yet been collected, to estimate with accuracy the total expenditure involved. The period required to carry out the work is conjectural, but will probably be at least a few years. The sum of £5,000 will suffice for such of the work as can be done in 1929-30. There are in An Saorstát 10 cemeteries which were used exclusively by the British Army. These cemeteries are in Dublin (Arbour Hill and Grangegorman, beside the Phoenix Park), the Curragh, Cork, Limerick, Fermoy, Ballincollig, Tralee, Cahir (Kilcommon) and Birr. There is, in addition, the cemetery at the Hibernian Military School, Phoenix Park.

The Commissioners of Public Works have been responsible for the upkeep of the Grangegorman and Hibernian Military School cemeteries only for the past three years. They are since 1928-29 responsible for the upkeep of the remaining nine cemeteries mentioned, and for a number of graves in outside cemeteries. The annual cost is estimated at £900, the increase of £100 over the Estimates for 1928-29 being due to the provision needed for graves in outside cemeteries not previously provided for. Records furnished by the Imperial War Graves Commission indicate that there are about 3,000 graves in An Saorstát in 520 graveyards. 903 are in cemeteries administered by Board. It is expected that in course of identification about 200 more graves may be found, making a total of 3,200, of which 20 per cent. are already marked by permanent memorials and will not require headstones. About 2,500 headstones will probably have to be erected at an average cost of £10 each for provision and erection, making a total estimate of £25,000.

I might say in this connection that most of the headstones are being made in Ireland. I move to report progress.

The Dáil went out of Committee.
Progress reported; the Committee to sit again on Wednesday, 8th May.
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