With regard to the Vote, I understand from the Parliamentary Secretary——
In Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Haulbowline Dockyard.
Debate resumed.
May I interrupt? It is merely a matter of procedure. Deputy Daly was to resume the debate. Could a message be sent to Deputy Daly? He has no means of knowing.
I will hear Deputy Daly later. He has not lost his right as he has not spoken.
I suggest a message be sent to him.
I understand from the Parliamentary Secretary that the residents of Haulbowline are under notice for the 1st September to leave the houses they occupy. I ask him to leave them until the end of the financial year—31st March next. As I understand, it is necessary that the expenditure on this should be curtailed. There were some very important arguments put forward by the Opposition this time twelve months about the closing down of Haulbowline.
I am frankly concerned with the position of Deputy Daly in the matter. He has had no means whatever, as far as I know, of estimating how long the proceedings here this evening would be interrupted. Therefore, if, unfortunately. the House and his constituents are deprived of what Deputy Daly did undoubtedly intend to say and in the sequence in which he did intend to say it, I think a grave wrong will have been done to Deputy Daly and his constituents, and to the full and complete solution of this particular problem. For that reason, I hope that some member of his Party who has the same sense of Deputy Daly's responsibilities to his constituents will take it upon himself to see that Deputy Daly is not deprived of the opportunity which, by rising now, I am giving him to be heard. One of my objects in rising is to say that Deputy Daly is——
Will the Deputy speak now to the Vote?
He is gone to cash a cheque.
I see there is somebody who stands over that blackguardism. No member of the opposite side——
The Deputy will come to the Vote——
It is only Ministers who interrupt like that.
Is the Deputy going to speak on the Vote?
I would like to say, very much in the spirit of Deputy MacEntee, that we do congratulate the Minister upon the different spirit of frankness with which he dealt with this matter. We do not wish to score in any way off the Minister on that ground. I have always regarded Haulbowline as really a difficult problem and a problem which even very competent members of an Executive might, under present circumstances, have failed to solve. I am not out to say anything because they have not immediately succeeded in solving it. Haulbowline, as far as I can understand, having regard to its geographical position and its circumstances, is suitable for an industry of one particular kind—that is to say, an industry which will import its raw material in ship loads and which will export its finished product in ship loads.
Up to the moment, I certainly have not been able to find an industry of that kind which is available and which is wanted in Haulbowline. Deputy Anthony, who, if he has any name in this House, ought to be called, "Have a Bit Each Way, Anthony," has made one of his usual "have a bit each way" speeches. It is rather a pity that he could not follow the example of other Deputies who are interested in constituencies of that kind and frankly face the facts. On the last occasion, he said that Haulbowline was a place that was specially suitable for an industry, having regard to the transport position, knowing perfectly well that the transport position was its, at present, fatal defect. There was at one time a scheme for running a railway down from Monkstown and Passage over Rock Island and Green Island, and connecting it with the mainland, Passage Railway being at that time a broad-gauge railway. The reconstruction of that railway as a narrow-gauge railway and the construction of its bridges has now made that a financial impossibility unless you have a very definite financial pressure helping you in the matter.
As part of a full development however the port of Haulbowline may be a real asset and you have to take that into consideration. There may be possibilities in the future in relation to Haulbowline, even as it is now circumstanced from the point of view of transport, but that is only a part of an entirely new organisation of that harbour. For instance say if a great scheme of development in the Lower Harbour to Cuskinny and the rest of it were carried out, if there was that amount of large traffic coming in to break up its bulk into small trading craft, there might be a possibility. If in the same way we were to look at the harbour in Cobh and the Great Island, possibly as a free port, as a place which itself would be in bond, then again there are possibilities in these special circumstances for the use of Haulbowline. But the problem of using Haulbowline as a purely industrial site is, as I say quite frankly, a difficult problem and if the Government had failed in no other problem less difficult I would personally not be inclined to blame them very much in the matter. Now the first thing that we have got clear to-day is that the Government do intend and I congratulate them, to say that that piece of property which may have potential value but which has no immediate value shall be maintained in the condition in which its potentialities can be realised, when the time comes, with the smallest possible cost to the State. That is the problem which they have had to face and I take it that that is the problem which they intend to face in this matter.
I simply now want a certain amount of information. There has been a lot of scrap realised there. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us what amount that scrap realised. I want him to tell me the total cost which he has been put to in the actual maintenance of these dwellings. I want him to tell me what was the amount of the cost, and what was the amount which was paid for electricity by the people who occupied these premises. I want to know whether they paid any rates. Once we have got the position clear, if they have reasserted a clear title and have got, even technically, vacant possession of all the Government property on that island, then I think they may consider the matter as sympathetically as they can. A certain amount of costs will be involved in the maintenance of every house to the extent to which those houses can be let at rents which will cover such costs. I think they are entitled to be quite reasonable in the matter. There is no desire, and I do not think that any immediate economic purpose is gained in merely sending those people out for the sake of sending them out. So long as the Government have got, technically clear possession of the houses, and that there is no further tendency to build up that title through occupation, I think they should be sympathetic to these people. There is no difficulty, as far as I know there, in getting a reasonable service of transport to that island for anyone who desires to live upon it. If the Government can let the houses there, and if they can, in any way, use the houses for the purpose of reducing the costs of maintenance of the whole island, then they are entitled, and it would be perfectly reasonable to do so. But they are not entitled any longer actively to subsidise people by paying rents of houses and water rates. The Government have more or less to put Haulbowline at the back of their minds. I can envisage circumstances arising in which Haulbowline will be a real asset to the country.
Not if we do not maintain it.
No, but the question is what is the cost of maintenance? Up to the present the cost of maintenance is a thing no honest man knowing the facts can stand over.
Why?
£12,300 last year. The total is £19,500. It is simply playing with our responsibilities to do that, although it is good vote catching for every man who has anything to do with the district to say the contrary. But, let us be honest and say that we do not want to catch votes at the cost of asking the Government to keep on wasting any portion of £19,500 for the purpose of catching votes for the members of any Party in that district. I congratulate the Government on facing up to this problem at last.
My sympathies are altogether with the unfortunate workingmen in Haulbowline who will be forced in the near future to leave their homes, without having any possibility of getting work. We are told that they can go to Ford's. There is no certainty for any man that there is work at Ford's. The men have no promise that they will get work at Ford's when they leave Haulbowline. I have listened to Deputy Flinn for the last twenty minutes telling us what might possibly occur in one, two or three years' time. To use the Deputy's words, it is a real Kathleen Mavourneen scheme for the people in Haulbowline. There is no hope for them when the Opposition and the Government are one in this matter. There is only one thing I would ask, and that is, to be merciful to the men in regard to the housing and not to put them out of their homes. The least the men and women of Haulbowline can expect is to get cheap houses, because they will not be able to pay big rents. I am at a loss to know any other way out, as I am surrounded by the Opposition and by the Government, both being against the poor people down there.
For the sake of £19,500, we are such economists. That £19,500 could be used for the protection of a couple of hundred thousand pounds' worth, or a million pounds' worth of property, that was there one and a half years ago, when we were first told by the Opposition that such expenditure should no longer continue. I hold that the money would have been well spent and would not have to be given in a doleful way, given as the dole is given, if these men had been allowed to protect the machinery that was on the island. What is the use of putting up the island for sale or inviting an industry to come there when the machinery is gone? The place is now a big empty shed. There was some chance for Haulbowline while the machinery was there. The machinery was not obsolete, because any machinery that was there was put in ten or fifteen years ago by the British Government. The House can rest assured that the machinery was up to date at that time. Now that there is no chance for the men I appeal to the Government to make it a condition that these people should, at least, be made caretakers in their homes, or that they should be given the houses at the cheapest possible rent, so that they would not be put to the hardship of leaving and having no place to go except the county home.
Now that the Parliamentary Secretary has stated that the Government has decided to close down this place definitely, I suppose there is not much to be said about it. At the outset I would like to impress on Deputy Flinn and his colleagues who are opposing this Vote that the people who work in Haulbowline, and who earn a livelihood there, do not want something for nothing. On many occasions during the past few years they have come forward with proposals for providing work there. We have all recognised that this problem was a difficult one since the Government took the place over, but hold that on the grounds of public policy the Government were justified in coming to this House for the past few years, and asking a Vote for the maintenance of Haulbowline. If the Government had not done that, and had allowed the place to go into disrepair the very first cry against the Government for doing such a thing would have come from the Opposition Benches. Economies might be effected in Haulbowline. Economies might be effected in the running of the launches, I suggest, because I believe these services are war-time services. Surely there is no need now for war time services in transport between the island and the mainland. There are other services there which might also be termed war time services, and in which economies might be effected without reducing the staff which is necessary to keep the place in proper order until such time as the Government disposes of it. The money saved in that direction might be used in maintaining the staff. I do not propose to point out now where such economies might be effected, but I think the Board of Works inspector, when he visits the place, should go into these matters closely, and he will be able to get sufficient indication from the people in charge there as to where such economies might be effected. I do not think it is a good policy to close Haulbowline next September definitely. I think the place should be maintained until such time as it is advertised, and until the Government are satisfied that there is no hope of letting it to any outside concern. If it fell into disrepair I do not think there would be any hope of letting it, as it would be no use to anyone. There is very valuable machinery there that should be kept in repair until it is disposed of.
The Queenstown Dry Docks Company, which has been referred to by the Parliamentary Secretary, has had facilities there for some time past; they have had the use of the tanks and of the large derricks, and these facilities encouraged the Queenstown Dry Docks Company to keep open and facilitated them in getting work at Rushbrooke Dock. Recently, I understand, the Board of Works intimated to the company the withdrawing of these facilities. I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary how the matter stands at the moment—whether these facilities are finally withdrawn or whether they will be continued. I think it is very essential that they should be continued, and I do not see any reason why they should not. If we are not using these tanks and these derricks, I do not see any objection to the Queenstown Dry Docks Company using them.
And maintaining them.
And maintaining them. With regard to the houses. Deputies emphasised the necessity for not disturbing the families there. At the present moment there is no accommodation for those sixty families on the mainland, and I think it would be a very serious hardship on those families to disturb them. I do not think there is any necessity to disturb them until such time as the place is leased to some private concern.
Are they paying rent?
I am quite certain that these families would be prepared to pay a reasonable rent for the houses and to keep them in a state of repair if they are allowed to remain in occupation, and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider that aspect of the question. Leave the families in the houses, see that they maintain them and collect a reasonable rent from them. I do not think that they would have any objection to meeting him on that point. With regard to the reduction of the staff, I think some arrangement ought to be made whereby married men with dependants ought to be retained in preference to single men. There are a number of married men there, and I heard recently that some of these were among the first to receive notices I cannot understand that. I think that preferential treatment ought to be given to employees with dependants. I say to the Government that in reducing this Vote still further, or in closing down the place, they ought to hasten slowly; they ought to maintain a staff there to keep it in proper order, in the hope of letting it in good repair to some private concern later.
I think that the position with regard to this Vote— in fact, the position with regard to Haulbowline from the start—is like handing over something valuable to a child to play with. I cannot describe in any other way the manner in which this dockyard has been dealt with by the Government. They started off with what was undoubtedly very valuable machinery, and they have been playing with it for the last five years, at a fairly heavy cost to the nation. Now they say that they are going to leave it there, that they have no more use for it. If a notice which has been posted up in Haulbowline is correct, I do not know what this £5,000 is for. This notice says that Haulbowline is closing down as from 29th June. "It will be necessary to dismiss the staff, but this will be done by degrees with a view to facilitating the men to get other employment. All employed on the Island are advised that they should at once endeavour to obtain employment. The steam ferry and scavenging services will cease to operate as from 1st September, 1929, and the maintenance of houses on the Island by the Commissioners will cease from the date of notice." What is this £5,000 for if they are now going to clear out? That is what I would like to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary. Deputy Flinn asked the Parliamentary Secretary how much he got for the scrap which was sold by tender a short time ago. I have been informed, and my information is fairly reliable. Before I continue I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary would tell me what exactly he got for the scrap. Is the information available?
Mr. Bourke
It is not available.
It is only what I would expect. From what I have seen and from reliable information which I have got on the Island, this gentleman who took the scrap made something like 300 per cent. profit, or more. The scrap is being sold at present to Henry Ford. I cannot see why the Government, if it intended economising, or if it had any idea of working the place at all, did not put the men there to work preparing this scrap and sending it up to Henry Ford; but of course, we must do things on an imperial scale, and I suppose it would never do for the Government to be jobbing in scrap iron. But the men there are idle, and other men were imported to break up the machinery and turn it into scrap iron for conveyance to Ford's factory. Surely to goodness something could have been done in that way.
Last year the Parliamentary Secretary stated on this Estimate that they were breaking up the hulk of the "Garnet." He said: "It is of very little value as it is, but it will be of some value when broken up. It has a copper bottom." I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary is aware that both the copper bottom and the hulk are still there. I do not know whether that is information to those who are responsible for the working of the yard or not, but I can say that I saw it there myself the day before yesterday.
The whole question is if, as has been alleged by the Government for the last five or six years, there is valuable machinery there, what do they intend to do with that valuable machinery? As regards the disemployment of the men, I believe that the same trouble exists in Haulbowline as exists in the Land Commission—that the Unionist minority have taken over control—and I think that is very much evidenced by the manner in which the men are being dismissed. It is stated that these men will get employment in Henry Ford's. Does the Parliamentary Secretary seriously suggest that a man with one leg would get employment in Henry Ford's? That one-legged man has no other employment and no pension, but still he has been notified that he is one of the first twenty to go, while gentlemen are retained. One gentleman has a pension of £46 a year, his wife is a school teacher in Cobh, with £4 or £5 a week, and he has a motor-car and a large motor yacht for pleasure. He has been continued there, and has not been notified to go, whilst, on the other hand, unfortunate men are being dismissed who have seven or eight children to support, who have no visible means of support, who have no hope of getting employment, and who will become charges on the rates. I think that the manner in which this whole matter has been handled is like handing over valuable property to a few school-children to play with and smash up. Apparently what is being done is on the report of a gentleman who was sent down to give his views on Haulbowline. I do not know whether or not the Parliamentary Secretary will give us the name of that gentleman, but I suggest that he was a former manager of Haulbowline, who is now occupying a prominent position in a Dublin dockyard.
Of course, it would not be to that gentleman's interest to see the Government using Haulbowline for any purpose whatever or to see Haulbowline ever kept there, or to have the machinery there at the convenience of the Rushbrooke Dock Company. Of course, it would not— they are rival firms. Then take the power station. Apparently electric light is so badly wanted on the island that the power station has to work on Sunday. It has to be kept going all day on Sunday, with day and night shifts. I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary is aware of that or not. In thirteen weeks, forty tons of oil were used at £10 per ton. I would like if the Parliamentary Secretary would give us figures as to the amount of oil used in the power station during the twelve months. I believe myself that Haulbowline could be run without any loss whatever, and that the machinery could be maintained there without any loss to the State if there was any kind of a sane head put in charge. But, of course, it is public money, and the Ministers who are responsible here apparently do not care. They are depending on the majority they hold.
When the Parliamentary Secretary is replying I would like him to state definitely who has the discharge of the hands there, and on whose advice are they being singled out for dismissal. Is it intended, as was stated in the notices, to dismiss all the hands, or is it only intended to dismiss some of them? Is it intended merely to use the notices that have been given as a cloak for the dismissal of some and for the keeping on of the Masonic institution which, I believe, exists there at present? I have before me a list of those who were dismissed and who have been notified that their services are to be dispensed with. I have also a list of large pensioners whose services are being retained. Several of those large pensioners are single men, while the men who are being dismissed are men with large families. Is it intended to get rid of those on the island who are badly off and need employment and to keep on a gentleman who has a pension of £46 a year and whose wife is a school teacher in the town with a salary of £4 or £5 a week, a gentleman who keeps a motor car and a motor yacht for his pleasure and enjoyment. Is that the system under which the Parliamentary Secretary is working? I have here a list of men with pensions ranging from £68 a year down to £45. All those gentlemen are being retained, while the men who have been discharged are men who have no pension whatever. Will the Parliamentary Secretary state definitely in his reply who has the discharge of the hands? Who is responsible for it, and on whose advice is he acting when he discharges men who, when unemployed, will become a drug on the labour market. He knows well that they cannot get any other employment. I wonder would the President give us a guarantee in regard to this? He is, after all, the senior representative for Cork city. I am sure that he would have a pull with the firm of Messrs. Henry Ford & Son. I wonder, when he comes down to Cork next week, will he pay a visit to Ford's factory and see if he can get employment for these men. If these men are not able to get employment, they will become a burden on the ratepayers of Cork County.
As I have said, this matter has been handled in a manner that is disgraceful to any Executive Government. From the commencement it has been handled in a disgraceful manner. I see practically no hope of improvement while this system exists—of stating one year that you are compelled to keep these men there on account of the value of the machinery that is on the island. Would the Parliamentary Secretary tell us what was obtained for the machinery that was sold during the last twelve months, or whether any machinery was sold. Would he also state the exact value of the machinery at present on the island. Who is going to remain in charge of it, if anyone is going to remain in charge of it, and who is going to keep it in order? When the Parliamentary Secretary is replying I would like to have this information from him. I think we were entitled to have that information from him in his opening speech, and I regret that he did not give it to us then.
I would like to know what line the Deputy is following. Is the Deputy protesting against this money being voted for the maintenance of Haulbowline, or is he not? During the last five or six years this House has passed a Vote for the maintenance of that place. The Deputy's Party is protesting against the Vote. What line is the Deputy following?
I would like to know what the Deputy's Party is doing.
Does the Deputy agree with its closing down?
I do not, but I say that if you have an inefficient lot in charge of anything you cannot expect anything else, and that eventually you will have to close down. I would like to have from the Parliamentary Secretary a definite statement as to the value of the machinery at present on the island, and whether he intends to take care of it. I would also like to know from him whether he can give any particulars in regard to the tender which was received for the scrap. Does he know how much was got for the scrap? Surely, there was a tender received and accepted by his Department before the scrap was taken out of the place. I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary if he has any information about it. If he is not able to give that information, what use has he in coming here with the sort of a statement that he has made?
There are some questions that I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary. I want to know from him the total number who are employed there now, and their ratings, the total number who will remain employed there, and what their ratings will be. Would he also tell me the capacity of the electric plant that is there, and the total output that he is now getting from that plant—its maximum and average load, and its total unit output in the year? I want him to tell me if he has a battery there, and what the capacity of that battery is. If he has a battery there, I want to know from him over what hours it is used, and if not used, why it is not used. These questions are purely for the purpose of information.
Mr. Bourke
I am glad that grim visaged war has smoothed its wrinkled front. Deputy MacEntee and Deputy Hugo Flinn have come here to fortify us in our policy of economy. I can only regret that they had not been a little bit earlier, and we might have been able to make economies in other directions.
I understand that economy is shortly to take place.
Mr. Bourke
Deputy Anthony opened up for us several vistas of what might be done with Haulbowline in the way of starting new industries. All I can say is, we will leave no stone unturned in the effort to discover any industry that can possibly be carried on in that particular place. At present we are making every effort to lease the premises, but without success. I think that Deputies are under a misapprehension as to what is going to happen in September. I did not say that the present occupants of the houses were going to be evicted. All I said was that the steam ferry and other services will have to be closed down because they are very costly. They cost £4,000 a year. We cannot continue these services merely to gratify the people living in these houses, and who perform no duties and do no work for the State, but we are prepared to give them every consideration, and there is no prospect of evietion. Deputy Flinn has put to me several questions, most of which would be more suitable as Parliamentary questions. I cannot possibly be expected to have detailed information of that kind at my finger-tips. There are a few points on which I can give him the information required.
In regard to the scrap, that realised £3,268 0s. 6d. I cannot give him the cost of maintenance of the houses. The amount paid for electricity is £45 4s. 10d. The occupants of those houses do not pay the rates. The number employed was 85. We expect when our reductions have been completed to carry on that station with a skeleton staff of about 20. We have not yet finally decided how they will be divided, but it will be necessary to have men who are capable of maintaining the yard in good condition, and different types of tradesmen will be required for that purpose, and they will be skilled mechanics. Deputy Corry seems to be very solicitous as to who is in charge of the dismissal of those workers. Since the Minister for Finance has control of that, all I can assure him is that none of the terrible things he fears are going to be perpetrated is likely to occur. We are paying very close attention to this question ourselves, and I am personally looking into every one of these cases. The staff that will be retained will be retained primarily because of efficiency, but in dismissing men we are taking into consideration whether they are married or not, and where possible we avoid any unnecessary hardship.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary inform me was that the policy pursued in regard to the first lot of dismissals that has taken place? Twenty-five out of 89 have been under notice, and I find that a very large number of them are without pensions, while single men with pensions are being retained.
Mr. Bourke
A great many men in this dockyard are receiving pensions. and the dismissals are taking place irrespective of whether they have pensions or not. Some of those dismissed have pensions and some have not, and some of those retained have pensions and some have not.
According to the Masonic code.
Mr. Bourke
Deputy Hennessy raised the point as to whether or not the facilities given to the Queens-town Dry Dock Company are to be continued. We are engaged with the Dry Dock Company on that point, but I do not think it would serve any useful purpose to say how these negotiations are proceeding at present. I hope they will result favourably.
I asked the Parliamentary Secretary certain questions which he has not answered, and which ought to be within his knowledge. He told us of the running of a certain plant, and that he proposed to buy in substitution for that plant another plant of a similar character. Therefore, I suggest that he must have gone into this question. Does he know the capacity of the electric light plant? Does he know the amount of the load? Does he know there is a battery on the island? That is a matter of ordinary knowledge. He says that £45 would pay for the lighting of 57 dwelling-houses. At what rate, and how does he calculate it?
Mr. Bourke
I think we will require the services of the Deputy for these intricate problems.
I see you are getting impudent again.
I asked questions to which I got no answer. I asked what was the value of the plant sold in Haulbowline in the last twelve months, and I got no reply. Does the Parliamentary Secretary know anything about these matters?
Vote put and agreed to.