Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 28 Jun 1929

Vol. 30 No. 16

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 2—Oireachtas.

Mr. Blythe

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £80.052 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníochta i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Oireachtas.

That a sum not exceeding £80,052 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Oireachtas.

The Oireachtas Vote for this year differs from last year's Vote mainly because of the increased provision for travelling expenses for both Deputies and Senators. As I explained previously, there are two causes for the fact that the travelling expenses are higher. One is that not merely have all the Deputies taken their seats, but there is also the fact that the narrow majority leads to a better attendance of Deputies than when there was a bigger majority. Consequently, there is more travelling. The Bill that was passed in 1928 also led to some increase because it gave facilities to Deputies which they had not before. It gave facilities in that it provided an alternative to travelling by rail. That has led to some increase in the case of travelling expenses. The other increases are due to ordinary increments in the salaries of staffs.

Mr. de Valera

We are going to oppose the granting of this money. It is the only way we have of showing at this time that we still believe there are too many in this Assembly. It is unnecessarily large. Also, from our point of view the Seanad is unnecessary, but even from the point of view of those who regard the Seanad as useful. we think its numbers are altogether too large. To meet the expenses of the Seanad, I suppose we have directly a sum of about £25,000 for salaries and travelling expenses, and other sums for the clerk and assistant clerk of the Seanad. I am sure if we had all the items that are due exclusively to the expenses of the Seanad the sum would be about £30,000 or £40,000. About half of that could be saved if the Seanad were brought down to reasonable proportions. It is very difficult to know where any other economies could be effected. More than once I thought it would be well if a small Committee of the Dáil were set up consisting of one member of each Party to examine the question as to whether there were any directions in which savings could be effected. We have had one saving in the publication of the reports in their present form. Some members now are beginning to think that perhaps that saving is effected at too great a cost in other directions.

An Ceann Comhairle

resumed the Chair.

Mr. de Valera

However, it was an attempt at any rate in accordance with the ideas of cutting out useless expenditure. It is very difficult for anybody not acquainted with the working of the various sub-sections here, the working of the various offices directly in connection with the Dáil, to say whether there are not other directions in which savings could be effected. The main reason we are opposing this Vote is because we believe that the maintenance of the Seanad at its present number is altogether unwarranted, even from the point of view of those who hold against us that the Seanad is useful.

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Ba mhaith liom a chloisint ó'n Aire go bhfuil níos mó aire ghá thabhairt do dhualgaisí na dTeachtaí ó thainig Teachtaí Fianna Fáil isteach annseo. Tá rud áirithe nach n-aontuighim leis san meastachán seo agus isé an rud é san ná "Comhdhail Pairliminte na hImpireachta." Ní dóigh liom gur ceart airgead do chaitheamh ar a leithéid sin de rud. Ní dheineann sé aon mhaith don tír seo, cé'be maitheas a dheineas sé do'n Impireacht. Mar a dubhairt Eamon de Valera, Teachta, ba mhaith an rud Coiste do chur ar bun chun fháil amach conus a d'fhéadfaí airgead do shábháil ar an Vóta so. Thiochfadh le Coiste mar seo ceist líon na dTeachtaí do scrúdú agus conus mar is féidir an lión sin do laigheadú. Ar an dóigh sin, thiochfadh linn £20,000 do shábháil. Mar gheall ar an Seanad, táim ar aon intinn leis na Teachtaí eile ar an taoibh seo den Tigh. B'fhéidir nár ceart deire do chur leis ar fad ach thiochfadh linn £15,000 do shábháil air—sé sin £35,000 ar fad, agus tá an t-airgead san de dhíth go géar ar an tír. Thiocfadh le Coiste dul isteach san gceist agus socrú do dhéanamh conus is fearr an t-airgead do shábháil.

An Dochtúir O Tiobraide

Ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá mar gheall ar na ticéidi a tugtar dúinn mar Theachtaí. Cúpla mí ó shoin, cuaidh mé isteach sa oifig san chathair agus d'iarr mé ar an gcléireach ticéid do thabhairt dom go Gaillimh agus ar ais. Ba é an luach a bhí ar an dticéid sin 35/-. Nuair a thug mé an páipéir a fuair mé annso dó, do ghlac sé an ticéid uaim agus do thug sé ticéid dom 'na áit ar chostas £3, no mar sin. I rith an tsamhraidh, ar dóigh ar bith, is feidir ticéid go dti Gaillimh agus ar ais d'fháil ar 35/- acht támuid-ne ag íoc £3, no mar sin, air. Ba mhaith liom dá gcuirfeadh an tAire stop leis an gchleachtadh sin.

Mr. Kennedy

There is just one suggestion that I have to make on this Vote. It is that: that I do not see any necessity for sending copies of the Official Reports of the Seanad to every Deputy in the Dáil. Neither do I see the necessity for sending the Seanad Order Papers to every Deputy. Copies of these Reports could be left where Deputies could see them if they wanted. I do not think there are many Deputies interested in these debates.

Mr. Blythe

The amount for the Empire Parliamentary Union, mentioned by Deputy Fahy, is really a subscription for the Journal. Personally, I think many Deputies find that Journal interesting and useful. However, it is a matter that Deputies can raise in the House if they care to, and can ascertain the opinion of Deputies generally. With regard to the point raised by Deputy Tubridy, the question of special treatment, or at any rate more favourable treatment, in the matter of return tickets, has been taken up with the railway companies many times and always without success, until this week, when we have succeeded in inducing the railway companies to reconsider it.

An Dochtúir O Tiobraide

Ní h-é sin an puinnte a bhí agam-sa. Ní "special treatment" a bhí i gceist agam chor ar bith ach a bheith ag íoc £3 ar thicéid is feidir 'fháil ar 35/-.

Mr. Blythe

The position is that the railway companies have been charging full return fares, and nothing less than that for Deputies' tickets. However, I think—though I am not quite sure that it is finally settled—for the future, instead of the full return fare being charged, there will be single fare and one-third.

Mr. Gorey

In connection with that, on the line I travel we are expected to get a motor bus allowance from Kilkenny to Dublin of 12/9. The railway company deny there is such a ticket issued by them. The Finance Department holds that there are such tickets issued, and the result is that Deputies are between the devil and the deep sea. The ordinary charge for a railway return ticket is 45/-, which the Finance Department pays cheerfully.

Mr. Blythe

Not cheerfully.

Mr. Gorey

But they will only allow 12/9 for a motor bus fare, whereas the railway company deny there is a lesser ticket than 21/- return. We have got no satisfaction in this matter, and I hope the Minister will inquire into it.

Mr. Blythe

I could not tell the Deputy anything about that, at the moment, but I shall inquire, or, if the Deputy puts down a question, I shall reply to it, but I do not know the facts just now.

Mr. Gorey

I had hoped it would be settled without any of these difficulties.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 74; Níl, 51.

Tá

• Aird, William P.
• Anthony, Richard.
• Beckett, James Walter.
• Brodrick, Seán.
• Byrne, John Joseph.
• Carey, Edmund.
• Cassidy, Archie J.
• Clancy, Patrick.
• Cole, John James.
• Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
• Colohan, Hugh.
• Conlan, Martin.
• Connolly, Michael P.
• Corish, Richard.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Daly, John.
• De Loughrey, Peter.
• Doherty, Eugene.
• Dolan, James N.
• Doyle, Edward.
• Doyle, Peadar Seán.
• Duggan, Edmund John.
• Dwyer, James.
• Egan, Barry M.
• Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
• Fitzgerald, Desmond.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Gorey, Denis J.
• Hassett, John J.
• Heffernan, Michael R.
• Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
• Hennessy, Thomas.
• Hennigan, John.
• Henry, Mark.
• Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
• Holohan, Richard.
• Jordan, Michael.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Blythe, Ernest.
• Bourke, Séamus A.
• Kelly, Patrick Michael.
• Keogh, Myles.
• Law, Hugh Alexander.
• Lynch, Finian.
• Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
• McDonogh, Martin.
• MacEóin, Seán.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGiligan, Patrick.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Morrissey, Daniel.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, James E.
• Myles, James Sproule.
• Nally, Martin Michael.
• Nolan, John Thomas.
• O'Connell, Richard.
• O'Connell, Thomas J.
• O'Connor, Bartholomew.
• O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
• O'Higgins, Thomas.
• O'Leary, Daniel.
• O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
• O'Reilly, John J.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Rice, Vincent.
• Roddy, Martin.
• Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
• Thrift, William Edward.
• Tierney, Michael.
• White, John.
• White, Vincent Joseph.
• Wolfe, George.
• Wolfe, Jasper Travers.

Níl

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Blaney, Neal.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Bourke, Daniel.
• Brady, Seán.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Buckley, Daniel.
• Carney, Frank.
• Carty, Frank.
• Clery, Michael.
• Coburn, James.
• Colbert, James.
• Cooney, Eamon.
• Corkery, Dan.
• Corry, Martin John.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Fahy, Frank.
• Flinn, Hugo.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Goulding, John.
• Jordan, Stephen.
• Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
• Kent, William R.
• Kerlin, Frank.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick John.
• Maguire, Benn.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Mullins, Thomas.
• O'Kelly, Seán T.
• O'Leary, William.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• O'Reilly, Thomas.
• Powell, Thomas P.
• Ruttledge, Patrick J.
• Ryan, James.
• Sexton, Martin.
• Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
• Smith, Patrick.
• Tubridy, John.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Francis C.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P. S. Doyle; Níl: Deputies G. Boland and Allen.

Question declared carried. Progress ordered to be reported. The Dáil went out of Committee. Progress reported; Committee to sit again on Wednesday, 3rd July.